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Old 08-12-2006, 04:32 AM   #1
Darth Raum
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M$-78 in game trailer

In The Sith Lords trailer, there is one shot where the camera is circling the landing pad on M4-78. Just thought I'd throw that out there even though we all know that it was originally intended to be in the game but was cut due to time shortage. But it just shows that with another 2-3 months, we could've had a finished kotor game, M4-78 and all.


You see, I'm actually a deathly sith lord. But since my ressurection from the body of Jaden Korr, I've been pretty busy with growing up. It can be irritating sometimes having to re-live life, but it'll be worth it when I rule the universe again as the almighty Dark Lord of the Sith.
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Old 08-12-2006, 06:35 PM   #2
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TSL is actually a finished product, though not many people seem to realize that.

I am actually helping restore (though more like make) M4-78. While it will be a fun planet to explore and do things on, TSL will be just as "finished" with or without it. It's really just adding extra gameplay.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:23 AM   #3
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That is a point that reguarly comes up around here, and I don't know why. TSL is a complete and finished product, it is simply a buggy product. The things that were removed (such as M4-78) were originally going to be added in patches like was originally going to be done for some of the places in Kotor. This unfortunately never came to pass, and because there are places where these things COULD happen, and the scattered remainants are there, people consider TSL to be unfinished.

It is not.
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:59 AM   #4
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What about the drastically cut material at the end and the fact that nothing is explained about why you face malachor alone and where your friends are and the hk 47 droid factory quest which WAS started by picking up the translator on peragus, that was NOT finished it was left hanging after Hk-47 talked about the translater.

It is unfinished.


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Old 08-13-2006, 05:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbieZ
nothing is explained about why you face malachor alone
Unlike KotOR, TSL expects you to think about these things. As the Ebon Hawk was extremely damaged, it would have been a stupid idea to just leave it there. It's most likely that the crew was repairing it. If anything, I would wonder about why only two companions can come with you on the Star Forge. The Ebon Hawk was protected by the Jedi, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jediphile
What was the outcome of the G0-T0 vs. Remote cutscene?
Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbieZ
the hk 47 droid factory quest which WAS started by picking up the translator on peragus, that was NOT finished it was left hanging after Hk-47 talked about the translater.
A minor thing buried deep in HK's dialogue compared to the huge plot hole in KotOR. They never even explain how Revan and Malak fell to the dark side. All that's stated is "something happened to them along the Rim", although it's never explained.

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Originally Posted by HerbieZ
It is unfinished.
How? All that those cut parts of the game really do is show scenes with obvious outcomes, or add other things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot.
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediphile
What was the outcome of the G0-T0 vs. Remote cutscene?
Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.
And how? Because the way that scene ends, there is no way the Remote can fulfil his mission, since G0-T0 has total control over him and seems pretty adamant about not allowing Remote to destroy Malachor.

Sure, I know what was supposed to happen, but it's still missing from the game itself. And I actually take the fact that the matter is described in the New Essential Guide to Droids (where G0-T0's demise is mentioned, since LSF Exile is canon) to be an admission that this was missing from the game.

M4-78 may be cut content, because you don't actually need it in the plot. The same goes for the Genoharadan plot on Nar Shaddaa.

I don't think that's true for the G0-T0 vs. Remote scene or the HK factory, since both are pretty essential to how the plot eventually plays out. Without those, the story has plotholes.


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Old 08-13-2006, 07:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And how? Because the way that scene ends, there is no way the Remote can fulfil his mission, since G0-T0 has total control over him and seems pretty adamant about not allowing Remote to destroy Malachor.
So? The remote can still 'fulfill' his mission without destroying Goto. All he said was that the remote couldn't move. That little droid had a blaster. He didn't need to move to fire it. And for all we know, he didn't need to. The console the remote activated said the mass shadow generator was powering up. Goto didn't seem to know that, as he said he could permit the remote to activate the generator. For all we know, Goto could've gone on about with his little talk and the generator activated in the middle of it. But as I play as a dark side character, the issue never arises with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I don't think that's true for the G0-T0 vs. Remote scene or the HK factory, since both are pretty essential to how the plot eventually plays out. Without those, the story has plotholes.
You have not responded to the major plothole in KotOR I pointed out.

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Originally Posted by HerbieZ
That makes the movie of the Ebon Hawk falling one of the most comical highlights of the game to know as the darkside, your entire party are creamed inside a falling ship.
That is not relevant to my point.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
So? The remote can still 'fulfill' his mission without destroying Goto. All he said was that the remote couldn't move. That little droid had a blaster. He didn't need to move to fire it.
Quoting G0-T0 from the game...
Quote:
Touching. The probability of the Iridonian installing triggered commands within your core was high; I see the probabilities have played out.Of course, the probability that I would do the same is equally high. Your inability to move right now is evidence of that. If the General issues the command, only I will be here to receive it.You realize I cannot permit you... or the exile... to activate the mass shadow generator here on Malachor. In that, your programming and mine... conflict.And since you have no offensive weaponry to speak of, the probability of your programming overwriting mine is low.
Note "no offensive weaponry to speak of"... It says rather a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
And for all we know, he didn't need to. The console the remote activated said the mass shadow generator was powering up. Goto didn't seem to know that, as he said he could permit the remote to activate the generator. For all we know, Goto could've gone on about with his little talk and the generator activated in the middle of it. But as I play as a dark side character, the issue never arises with me.
If you're unwilling to consider the LS ending, then what's the point here? After all, it's only in that ending that Malachor V gets destroyed, so there is no question G0-T0 won the fight in that sense.

Hmm... Actually, your theory makes me wonder how he stopped Remote in the DS ending, if he didn't know the mass shadow generator was powering up... Seems to me that's either incorrect or else it's another plothole. But from the G0-T0 quote above, I'd assume the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You have not responded to the major plothole in KotOR I pointed out.
Nor do I have to. Indeed, I don't even have to agree that it's a plothole, which is the case here, and therefore irrelevant to me.


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Old 08-13-2006, 06:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Unlike KotOR, TSL expects you to think about these things. As the Ebon Hawk was extremely damaged, it would have been a stupid idea to just leave it there. It's most likely that the crew was repairing it. If anything, I would wonder about why only two companions can come with you on the Star Forge. The Ebon Hawk was protected by the Jedi, after all.



Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.



A minor thing buried deep in HK's dialogue compared to the huge plot hole in KotOR. They never even explain how Revan and Malak fell to the dark side. All that's stated is "something happened to them along the Rim", although it's never explained.



How? All that those cut parts of the game really do is show scenes with obvious outcomes, or add other things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot .
My god.


In bold are words/paragraphs that made me laugh

"Most likely" & "somehow" prove there was something missing.

The fall of Malak and Revan isn't a plot hole if it was never supposed to be explained in KOTOR. I for one was never expecting it to. However the HK dialogue was clearly in place to be followed up. Whether or not you agree with my view about KOTOR, you can't make TSL comeplete by saying something else is more severly cut.

"No relevance to the plot" made me laugh the hardest. The cut content wasn't just relevent to the plot, it WAS the plot.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Unlike KotOR, TSL expects you to think about these things. As the Ebon Hawk was extremely damaged, it would have been a stupid idea to just leave it there. It's most likely that the crew was repairing it.
That makes the movie of the Ebon Hawk falling one of the most comical highlights of the game to know as the darkside, your entire party are creamed inside a falling ship.


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Old 09-11-2006, 09:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Unlike KotOR, TSL expects you to think about these things. As the Ebon Hawk was extremely damaged, it would have been a stupid idea to just leave it there. It's most likely that the crew was repairing it. If anything, I would wonder about why only two companions can come with you on the Star Forge. The Ebon Hawk was protected by the Jedi, after all.



Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.



A minor thing buried deep in HK's dialogue compared to the huge plot hole in KotOR. They never even explain how Revan and Malak fell to the dark side. All that's stated is "something happened to them along the Rim", although it's never explained.



How? All that those cut parts of the game really do is show scenes with obvious outcomes, or add other things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot.
Following your logic it seems "obvious" that the PC trimuphs versus his/her enemies. And in fact it is.

But we still want to see such things in the game.

Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was left out, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us
"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?


A good plot does not only have the absolutely necessary elements in it. One common mistake of writers is that they assume that some things are "logical" when they really are not.
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was leftout, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us
"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?
I would not be. However, those are completely different situations, which I assume you realize.


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Old 08-13-2006, 08:25 AM   #13
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Or indeed...

What was the outcome of the G0-T0 vs. Remote cutscene?

Where did all of the Exile's companions suddenly disappear to?


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Old 08-13-2006, 09:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Raum
But it just shows that with another 2-3 months, we could've had a finished kotor game, M4-78 and all.
Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?

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Old 08-14-2006, 12:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Prime
Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?
Quite so. Why people have a hard time understanding this is really strange to me.

When creating a storyline for a game you will cut things out, a large percentage of the original ideas can hit the floor during development, or be replaced by new ideas. It is the way of things.


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Old 08-17-2006, 08:35 AM   #16
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Quite so. Why people have a hard time understanding this is really strange to me.

When creating a storyline for a game you will cut things out, a large percentage of the original ideas can hit the floor during development, or be replaced by new ideas. It is the way of things.
It's a very good point. People do tend to cling to the cut content, even though it's possible that it was all cut for creative reasons over time/budget.
It's so easy to do though as the ending of the game is so underwhelming.
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Old 08-14-2006, 12:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?

What other reasons would there be for cutting something as important as this to the game


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Old 09-19-2006, 08:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Prime
Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?
good point prime.
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Old 09-19-2006, 11:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?
good point prime.
It's not necessarily the only one, but it very often is. Cutting stuff because it "doesn't fit" or "disrupts the flow" can be necessary, but doing it also means that you've wasted valuable time and money producing something that ends up on the cutting floor anyway.

There are certainly times when it is essential, but the question is when that is. It happens all the time for movies - hence all those lovely deleted scenes on dvds (I love getting a peek at what the director decided to cut and why), but I'd say it happens less frequently in games than in movies, because in movies, you have to consider the flow of the story - which is not chosen by the consumer - how it fits with background music, how good (or bad) the performances available are, etc. In games this is different because you're not stuck with the performances (you can just reprogram it), the pace is the player's choice and not the developer's, and the background music has to reflect that.

There are many, many examples of how stuff had to be cut from movies, even if it's brilliant. Take a look at "Gladiator", where they cut the plotting scene with Derek Jacobi and Connie Nielsen, which I think is the best scene of the movie, because it revealed the female lead's intentions too soon in the plot. Or M. Night Shyamalan, who had to cut his original ending for "The Sixth Sense" (check the dvd). Some of the cut scenes in "Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl" are hilarious, but had to go for pacing reasons, since the movie was already running long.

Do we see the same sort of cut stuff in games? No, not usually. Why? Because they're far easier to plot and prepare for. You don't need to take extra scenes, because the location won't be available next week, so most frequently, the end plot is the one that was planned by the story writers, since cutting stuff means wasted efforts for all.

The question is why stuff was cut from TSL? Was it for pacing reasons? Was it because it was "running long" (doubtful in any game, methinks)? KotOR1 had cut stuff too, but that material seems to have been mostly redundant to the plot, whereas much cut content in TSL was plot relevant, some of it even essential IMHO. So the reasons for some parts cut from the game does not seem to be for the sake of pacing or redundancy...


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Old 09-19-2006, 01:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
It's not necessarily the only one, but it very often is. Cutting stuff because it "doesn't fit" or "disrupts the flow" can be necessary, but doing it also means that you've wasted valuable time and money producing something that ends up on the cutting floor anyway.
But that happens all the time in software development of any kind. There is always stuff that was decided upon in the initial design that was changed or scrapped in the later development stages because it didn't work or line up with the other aspects as they changed. Actually, I can't think of a large project I have worked on where that didn't happen. It isn't always because of time constraints, although that certainly happens a lot as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
There are certainly times when it is essential, but the question is when that is. It happens all the time for movies - hence all those lovely deleted scenes on dvds (I love getting a peek at what the director decided to cut and why), but I'd say it happens less frequently in games than in movies,
Actually, I'd say that it happens just as much or more for games, because not only is stuff potentially removed for story reasons, but technical reasons as well. Remember when they talked about having removable hoods in TSL? Didn't make it in because it was harder technically than they originally thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
because in movies, you have to consider the flow of the story - which is not chosen by the consumer - how it fits with background music, how good (or bad) the performances available are, etc. In games this is different because you're not stuck with the performances (you can just reprogram it), the pace is the player's choice and not the developer's, and the background music has to reflect that.
But isn't that harder? The movie guy can pace the story and make it good because he controls everything and has all the input. The game developer (especially an RPG dev) has to make a story that changes its flow based on how the player plays. He doesn't just have one plot path to consider like the movie guy, but multiple potential plots that all have to link together and make sense. I think that's harder.

They still have to worry about pace, but have to make that pace work in multiple scenarios. With all that to consider, I think it would be more likely that story elements would get cut to make everything work in the end. For example, because they may have decided that the overall droid plotline was not working for all story paths that it should be removed. That may have made the droid planet unnecessary.

Such a dynamic story would be harder to plan out in the beginning than a single movie plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Do we see the same sort of cut stuff in games? No, not usually. Why? Because they're far easier to plot and prepare for. You don't need to take extra scenes, because the location won't be available next week, so most frequently, the end plot is the one that was planned by the story writers, since cutting stuff means wasted efforts for all.
Again, there are always cases where stuff you thought would work story-wise or technically may not work when you actually see it in its final form. In RPG games, this issue is made worse when you have to look at all plot paths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The question is why stuff was cut from TSL? Was it for pacing reasons? Was it because it was "running long" (doubtful in any game, methinks)?
Probably all the of the above. Different things can be cut for different reasons.

That is really my only point. Some People in general around here seem to think that every little thing that was cut was due to time restrictions. I'm just saying that is not necessarily the case and there are lots of other valid reasons why stuff might be cut. We just don't know in each specific case.

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Old 08-13-2006, 12:52 PM   #21
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As always, prime makes the facts clear to the *snip* XD

Let's use nicer words shall we. I would have used 'n00bs' or 'whiners' myself. -RH

Edit: Sorry RH. "whiners"? that's a little childish :P. Kidding.

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Old 08-13-2006, 03:28 PM   #22
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It evidently was time restrictions as to why the content was cut. It has been said by nearly every person in this forum and to believe otherwise is shear ignorance of the facts.


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Old 08-14-2006, 01:30 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaponMaster
What other reasons would there be for cutting something as important as this to the game
In threads that are focused on debating, it is a good idea to read all the posts. I shall now quote myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I am actually helping restore (though more like make) M4-78. While it will be a fun planet to explore and do things on, TSL will be just as "finished" with or without it. It's really just adding extra gameplay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henz
In bold are words/paragraphs that made me laugh
You'll live a little longer if you have a happy attitude and laugh often. I'm glad to have helped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henz
"Most likely" & "somehow" prove there was something missing.
I do not often like speaking in very black and white terms. I see that my unwillingness to do so resulted in you misinterpreting my statements. When I speak to you in the future, I will be sure to use terms that are easier for you to comprehend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henz
The fall of Malak and Revan isn't a plot hole if it was never supposed to be explained in KOTOR.
Were there plans for a KotOR II when KotOR I was released on Xbox? Even if there were, loose ends in a game should be wrapped up in that game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henz
I for one was never expecting it to. However the HK dialogue was clearly in place to be followed up. Whether or not you agree with my view about KOTOR, you can't make TSL comeplete by saying something else is more severly cut.
I cannot make TSL more "complete" by pointing that out. But whining about a minor plot hole in one game and ignoring a major one in another game is inconsistent of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henz
"No relevance to the plot" made me laugh the hardest. The cut content wasn't just relevent to the plot, it WAS the plot.
I see my statement proved to complex for you to understand. What I meant was that the things missing from TSL are either scenes with obvious outcomes, OR they are things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot. An example of the second thing I listed would the Padawan in the Enclave's sublevel (Kaevee, I think it was?) who controlled the laigreks.

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Old 08-17-2006, 08:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Were there plans for a KotOR II when KotOR I was released on Xbox? Even if there were, loose ends in a game should be wrapped up in that game.
There is no evidence I know of to support the idea that the fall of Malak & Revan was to be tied up, whereas we all know most loose ends in TSL were there because of cut content.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I cannot make TSL more "complete" by pointing that out. But whining about a minor plot hole in one game and ignoring a major one in another game is inconsistent of you.
I was merely stating that pointing out other games' removed material in no way affects what was removed from TSL. I don't care what was cut from KOTOR 1 as it was covered up well. My "whining" is at the TSL story suffering because of a confusing, fragmented, rushed ending.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I see my statement proved to complex for you to understand. What I meant was that the things missing from TSL are either scenes with obvious outcomes, OR they are things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot. An example of the second thing I listed would the Padawan in the Enclave's sublevel (Kaevee, I think it was?) who controlled the laigreks.
But the obvious outcomes were not the ones originally intended. Was the remote supposed to be left, doomed? Who is on the Ebon Hawk as it flies off in the under-whelming final cut scene? Streamlining game-play is thing, and I'm all for working out answers; but TSL forces you to make them up because it couldn't be bothered to itself.
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Old 08-15-2006, 03:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.
If anything is obvious, its that Revan and Malak's fall is to be explained in K3. (I really hope they make that game)

Just because those of us who are realists admit that TSL is unfinished doesn't mean we didn't enjoy and continue to enjoy the game. It just means we believe its an unfinished game. Personally, I would love to have the plot at the end of the game a little more, shall we say, existent? What happened between Remote and G0-T0? Where did Mira go after killing Hanharr? Where is Bao-Dur? And what about everyone else in the party? What happened, what happened, what happened? As a closing statement, TSL is the most enjoyable game with no ending I've ever played.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:25 PM   #26
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As for the generator powering up, I always assumed that even though it was charged up, it still needed the final command to activate, and otherwise it would just sit there ready to go without going.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:04 PM   #27
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Well, Obvious "unfinished things" would be:
3) Where goes the rest of your crew, like T3M4, though we know about Remote/HK/G0T0. The whereabouts of Visas and the rest during the M-V incident would need some explanation.

2) Bao-Dur, and his Importance (though we could have guessed it with remote, but what of Bao-Dur?) Though maybe they want to make Bao-Dur reappear in the third game.

1) HK and him mentioning of the factory, definitely unfinished part DESIGNED to be in the game.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:19 PM   #28
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I'm under the impression that Obsidian may have left that last detail in the game as a lead-in to a potential plot aspect in KotOR III, since the HK-50 aspect of the plot is never really resolved.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:27 PM   #29
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The real problem is that the HK factory is an essential part of the plot, since it impacts how the G0-T0 vs. Remote conflict plays out on Malachor V. But because the HK factory was never quite finished and had to be cut, there was no choice but to cut that part from the end of the game, too, which leaves that part of the tale without any real closure.

And of course, what becomes of the rest of the Exile's companions is also quite absent. Sure, we might know what was supposed to happen, but as is, they just disappear into thin air on Malachor V... It still bugs me that Kreia actually says, "When the exile enters the Trayus Academy, he will be faced with a choice...". No, he won't, because it was cut, yet she still says it...


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Old 08-17-2006, 09:13 AM   #30
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A question for those going on about K2 being unfinished.

Is K1 in your opinion finished? or unfinished?
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Old 08-17-2006, 08:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackel
A question for those going on about K2 being unfinished.

Is K1 in your opinion finished? or unfinished?
Finished in the sense of cut content being well hidden.
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Old 08-19-2006, 04:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Finished in the sense of cut content being well hidden.
Well, Point being, a finished product means loose ends from cut content would not be found so easily in normal play, annoying the player and/or giving player the idea that something they have missed exist even after repeated gameplay. Such is the case when it comes to HK47/HK50 incident. That the lines clearly indicate something is to be done.

Areas you can find using cheat is ok, cause you are not SUPPOSED to get to them during normal gameplay. In fact, those secret bits are actually good, sort of an easter egg.
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Old 08-17-2006, 09:24 PM   #33
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Nor do I have to. Indeed, I don't even have to agree that it's a plothole, which is the case here, and therefore irrelevant to me.
Then I shall apply that theory to your argument. If you ignore my points while pressing your own, this debate will obviously go nowhere.

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There is no evidence I know of to support the idea that the fall of Malak & Revan was to be tied up,
Whether they planned to tie it up or not, that doesn't matter. My point is that there is a large plothole. While I'm glad it has been explained since, it left me wondering after I finished KotOR.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:48 PM   #34
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About what the topic was really about, I've checked through the trailer several times looking for the M4-78-shot, but I can't find it. Can someone give a screenshot?
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Old 08-31-2006, 04:28 PM   #35
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In The Sith Lords trailer, there is one shot where the camera is circling the landing pad on M4-78. Just thought I'd throw that out there even though we all know that it was originally intended to be in the game but was cut due to time shortage. But it just shows that with another 2-3 months, we could've had a finished kotor game, M4-78 and all.

Upon watching the trailer in the game, it really isn't a point of reference for what was going to appear and what wasn't. It looks to have been made very early in production: characters like Mandalore don't have proper textures, there are a lot of K1 heads being used, as well as bodies and in one case a robe texture over a K2 robe (I was really surprised when I saw that one).

M4-78 was cut for time constraint reasons and for redundancy (as the story was similar to Peragus, apparently). If the planet were important to the plot of the game, it wouldn't have been cut. It would have been a nice addition, but they really didn't "cut" anything except the prospect of fully executing the concept of the planet.
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Old 08-31-2006, 04:38 PM   #36
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If the planet were important to the plot of the game, it wouldn't have been cut.
There actually were some plans to make M4-78 an important part of the plot very early on in development. Bao-Dur was supposed to die there and the Force bond with Kreia was supposed to be explained in more depth, but I think those were cut even before the planet was.

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M4-78 was cut for time constraint reasons and for redundancy (as the story was similar to Peragus, apparently).
Thankfully, M4-78 will not have a very similar story to Peragus. The only similarities I can think of would be there are a lot of droids, and gas killed off some people.


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Old 08-31-2006, 05:11 PM   #37
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Whoof. Another ''Is TSL finished, or not?'' discussion.

OK, here it goes - you may, or may not agree, but the fact is that TSL is, storywise, an unfinished game. The HK-50 factory (the biggest reason for these discussions) is a major part of the plot and it isn't in the game. That's a fact. And it's made a lot of people agitated (including me). There are many other plotholes, some major, some minor (I'd have to replay the game to present a detailed list and quite frankly I don't want to do that) and some of them are responsible for certain bugs in the game (for example there's a dialogue option in the Rebuilt Enclave that, if selected, instantly ends the conversation and kills the three masters, no regular cutscene, Kreia appears there and you have to talk to her to get a cutscene and not the one that should have been played).
Like other people said, wheter a game is finished or not is determined by how well is the cut content hidden and the plotholes wrapped up. In TSL it has been done poorly, probably due to lack of time, but the reasons are not important right now, what's important is that because of that this game is unfinished.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing TSL, despite its drawbacks, but my point is that story-wise, it's not as fine tuned and wrapped up as the first part was.

@Emperor Devon: About that 'major' plothole from K1 you mentioned. I dunno, it wasn't explained in detail in the game, but it was explained to a point by that vision of Revan and Malak discovering the first Star Map. Maybe it wasn't explained completely, but it felt wrapped up, like the rest of the story.

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Old 08-31-2006, 05:20 PM   #38
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Maybe it wasn't explained completely, but it felt wrapped up, like the rest of the story.
The reasoning behind why the main antagonists of the series founded the empire that threatened the galaxy was left entirely unexplained in KotOR. How does that make it feel wrapped up?


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Old 09-01-2006, 05:41 AM   #39
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Actually, when I think of it a little further, it was explained completely.

OK, here's what we know. When Revan and Malak found the first Star Map on Dantooine, they, or rather Revan (Malak simply followed him), were drawn by it and decided to find the missing pieces of the puzzle. At the end of the road was the Star Forge. This isn't emphasised in the game, but it seems pretty obvious that they discovered that Star Map before they went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, since they didn't return to the Academy after they went to war. It also seems obvious that finding the Star Maps was the real reason why Revan left to fight in the war.
Now, consider this:
- It was said in the game that Revan took his fleet to the Unknown Regions, after they defeated the Mandalorians and it was said that something happened to him there that turned him to the Dark Side.
- We know that he found the Star Forge and used it.
- The Star Forge is in the Unknown Regions.
- The Star Forge is a tool, for lack of a better term, of the Dark Side.

I think that the conclusion you can draw from all this is pretty obvious - When Revan found the Star Forge he completely turned to the Dark Side and Malak along with him. They were already tainted when they found that first Star Map on Dantooine.
I know what you're going to ask: Where did that taint come from? And here's the answer: both of them, especially Revan, were refered to as being arrogant and overconfident and who knows what else (mostly by Vrook, if I remember correctly) and when it comes to Jedi, those traits come with a price - the possibility of falling to the Dark Side.

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Old 09-01-2006, 01:36 PM   #40
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Being proud alone does not lead to the dark side. Usually something else is needed. I do not think that the Star Forge alone made Revan fall, because he knew it existed before he went out to conquer the galaxy. An good Jedi would've informed the Council.

TSL elaborated a bit on Revan's schemes to take over the galaxy, which was well and good, but I think that it should have been explained in KotOR as well.


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