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Old 10-09-2006, 02:02 AM   #1
Windu Chi
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Angry North Korea says nuclear test successful.

North Korea apparently have the bomb. *News link*

Apparently the wasted time and resourses in Iraq have came back to hunt the United States.

If North Korea really possess a nuclear bomb then there is going to be hell to pay.
The time of the apparent nuclear test was at 9:36 p.m. EDT Sunday in Hwaderi near Kilju city cited, South Korean defense officials.


*WARNING*
Iran will be the next country to possess the bomb, in a short period of time.

Last edited by windu6; 10-09-2006 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:31 AM   #2
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They said it wa successful. North Korea says a lot of things. You might as well believe in goblins if you trust them for as much as a second. Isn't it just as likely that they waited for a convenient natural earthquake and then claim it was caused by their new toy, Mr. Nuke?

Sure, it's possible that they detonated an atomic bomb in a bunker someplace (probably ten times more likely than my "convenient earthquake" story). In which case I suppose they've gotten themselves a guarantee that the US's Armed Forces will stay off of them. But I have my doubts.

I wonder how many starving kids the atomic program would feed...

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Old 10-09-2006, 12:33 PM   #3
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Well, they've been talking about a nuke test for about a week now - I think I heard the plan was to detonate the bomb in a cave...but though what they say and reality aren't always in line, for all practical purposes, I don't see why we shouldn't take them at their word - when it comes to nukes, the stakes are a bit too high, imo.

And North Korea's past relationship with Iran virtually guarantees that Ahmadinejad will have a nuke of his own - probably sooner, rather than later.

I'd like to send a special thank-you out to Bill Clinton, without whose diplomatic bungling this wouldn't have been possible...


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Old 10-09-2006, 02:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
I'd like to send a special thank-you out to Bill Clinton, without whose diplomatic bungling this wouldn't have been possible...
And Bush helped matters soooo much by labeling N. Korea as a part of the 'axis of evil'.




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Old 10-09-2006, 03:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And Bush helped matters soooo much by labeling N. Korea as a part of the 'axis of evil'.

Not really.

The Clinton admin gave North Korea nuclear technology on the condition that North Korea wouldn't use it to develop weapons...and then did nothing about it when they did start a nuke program. It would do us some good if someone would do something about the situation beyond labels and endless talks...but the rumor mill has it that the US is going to go the the UN and propose sanctions, which I'm sure will deter Kim Jong Il for all of 0.25 seconds.

My question is, when is the 'world community' going to finally stop playing PC games with these brutal dictators and start taking action?


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Old 10-09-2006, 08:02 PM   #6
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My question is, when is the 'world community' going to finally stop playing PC games with these brutal dictators and start taking action?
What kind of "action" are we discussing here? If you refer to this kind, I'm out.

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Old 10-09-2006, 08:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
The Clinton admin gave North Korea nuclear technology on the condition that North Korea wouldn't use it to develop weapons...and then did nothing about it when they did start a nuke program.
And who was sitting on the board of directors for ABB, the British firm that engineered the nuclear technology for North Korea.

Donald Rumsfeld.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
I'd like to send a special thank-you out to Bill Clinton, without whose diplomatic bungling this wouldn't have been possible...
Yeah, it's all Clinton's fault. That whole "Not going in guns blazing at the slightest provocation" policy of his...I tell ya...


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Old 10-09-2006, 10:40 PM   #9
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And what, exactly, should Clinton have done? Started the 3rd Korean War? Imposed economic sanctions on an already impoverished country that does not care about its poverty in the first place (OK, so its people does, but I don't know if the government even cares if it has a people to take care of - the party members get rich in other ways ).

Diplomacy's worked many times in the past, still work, and will always work. It might be too boring and polite for certain peoples' tastes, but it has a tendency of not getting people bombed, shot at, molested, and occupied. Furthermore, North Korea's leaders apparently tend to look at threats and "roughness" as challenges that merely make them more determined to reach their goals.

Nuclear Documentary.


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Old 10-10-2006, 02:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Diplomacy's worked many times in the past, still work, and will always work.
Not always:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement_of_Hitler

I do, however, agree that going in with guns blazing should be ABSOLUTELY the last resort, after all other avenues have been exhausted. North Korea has a HUGE army, and any invasion of that country would be extremely costly, even given the assumption that they only had the nuke that they tested, which is unlikely.

This situation is going to be extremely difficult to resolve. I agree that sanctions will probably not work, but I think that severe pressure from China might.
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:00 PM   #11
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Unless all the major countries like Russia, China, Japan, S. Korea, and the U.S.A. are seriously misinformed and overreacting then all indications are that N. Korea did set off an underground nuclear bomb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Diplomacy's worked many times in the past, still work, and will always work.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw red flags after reading this statement. Of course, Dagobahn Eagle may not be indicating that diplomacy will always resolve conflicts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
I thought of the same thing.

I too do not believe that the situation with N. Korea can be blamed entirely on Bill Clinton. While Clinton's decisions during his tenure as U.S. president may have contributed to the problem I see George W. Bush's decision to preemptively invade Iraq as a major contributor, giving Kim Jong-Il an excuse (not that he really needed one) to continue development of nuclear weapons.

My concern with countries like N. Korea and Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is how they will use them. I don't trust these countries to use them for deterrent purposes only. I wonder if N. Korea would use nuclear weapons as a shield to allow them to invade S. Korea, basically saying to the rest of the world, "Stay out of this or we'll use our nukes!" I think of Iran in the same way. If Iran had nukes would they then use them as a shield that would allow them to attack Israel?


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Old 10-10-2006, 01:45 AM   #12
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N. Korea's leaders do like playing brinksmanship with the world....
Only problem is, if you feel like you have to pee into the wind to prove your manhood, sometimes you end up getting wet when it all blows back at you.


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Old 10-10-2006, 01:53 AM   #13
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F***, I live in the blast radius of Seattle.

I do not find any comfort in the idea of North Korea being invaded when I'm a bunch of radioactive particles of dust protons. Threats like these seem so much more threatening when there's a chance, however slight, you can be affected by them. Hopefully this'll be resolved before Kim goes even more over the brink and develops missles with a longer range...

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Old 10-10-2006, 04:53 AM   #14
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I say North Korea pissing off the world: successful. Kim Jong's a madman, given how unstable the guy is there's the fear he'd let loose a nuke in retalliation to international scorn. Yeah, I know I sound like a McCarthy supporter in the 50's but I gotta say I'm scared of where this could lead to.
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Old 10-10-2006, 11:41 AM   #15
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No, by all means, I agree. Kim Jong-Il totally disregards human rights and life-worth. His own country's a testament of that fact. Given how badly he treats his own citizens, I doubt that he'll think twice before bombing his brothers in the South, or foreigners in China, Japan, Taiwan, or the US.

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Old 10-10-2006, 02:20 PM   #16
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw red flags after reading this statement. Of course, Dagobahn Eagle may not be indicating that diplomacy will always resolve conflicts.
I realize that was terribly badly phrased.

I did not mean that diplomacy works 100% of the time. I meant that it's always worked part of the time, when done properly and with reason. The appeasement is a textbook example of diplomacy that should not have been conducted.

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Old 10-10-2006, 05:05 PM   #17
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So much for "5 years". Stupid analysts.

I think Emperor Devon will be safe for a while yet, i doubt they have the missiles to get that far. Maybe japan, who they don't like at all. *thinks about where he is moving to in two weeks*

I'm not doing the whole "blame bush for everything" thing, but I don't think the "axis of evil" comments and invasion or iraq helped. It basically said to n.korea and iran "you are on our list, we'll get you next. unless you have nukes.".

I guess they'd have developed them anyway.. but they might not have been in such a rush.. which would have given china time to put the brakes in NK. Basically China is the only one with any influence, but they have quite a lot.. so they should be able to control them.



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Old 10-10-2006, 09:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
I think Emperor Devon will be safe for a while yet, i doubt they have the missiles to get that far.
They don't now, and I hope they don't ever.


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Old 10-10-2006, 06:57 PM   #19
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we'll get you next. unless you have nukes
which is why I'm glad he has it IF he really has it. I dare Bush to go in guns blazing. Woooweeeee!!! Yeeehawwww!!! You don't mess with Texas. He better stfu and plead the the U.N. (who he never seemed to care much for in the past) like a good l'il doggie. Everytime something like this comes up I'll keep repeating myself, hell I think I'll find the original text i wrote and just paste it in everytime this comes up. Since I can't find it right now I'll see how best I can get it: America is in NO place to say who should or should't have WMDs since it is the ONLY country in history to use them and it's just damn common sense. OK you have, you've used some already, so if I get you'll think twice before using what you have left on me because you know there is a POSSIBILITY you'll get your @$$ nuked too.


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Old 10-10-2006, 09:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
I guess they'd have developed them anyway.. but they might not have been in such a rush.. which would have given china time to put the brakes in NK.
I agree with this statement. I feel that halting the proliferation of nuclear weapons is an impossible task. Delaying proliferation is all we can really do.

So are you moving to Japan, toms?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtriniman
America is in NO place to say who should or should't have WMDs since it is the ONLY country in history to use them and it's just damn common sense.
Not sure I agree with this statement. I don't think America is justified in attacking a country just because they have a nuclear weapons development program. However I think it's absolutely necessary that America, in the interests of self-preservation, use all non-violent means at its disposal (diplomacy, economic incentives, and even economic sanctions) to prevent other countries from developing nuclear weapons. But if all those efforts fail then the U.S. and the rest of the world will have to deal with the reality of having yet another nuclear power in the world. I think it's only a question of will it be the Second Cold War or World War III?


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Old 10-10-2006, 10:27 PM   #21
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I think we should take the threat seriously, but I am still not worried too much personally. Because as of right now, we are not even sure if they tested a nuclear weapon or just a mass of conventional weapons. Also, if it was a nuke, North Korea has 1 less nuke And even if they can make nuclear weapons, they only have enough material to make around 5 or 6.

And, remember the Patriot Missle Defense System? We could be able to shoot the weapon out of the sky.


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Old 10-11-2006, 05:07 AM   #22
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It seem today that the so called leaders of this world are cowards.
The UN and the US is still debating on what to do to Kim Jong Yil and his criminal regime for defying the world.
It seem like this society of the world today has gotten soft since WW II, people today keep believing today that diplomatic solutions is going to work with every dictator.
This doesn't not seem to be the case with North Korea, sanctions aren't going to work with that nut Kim Jong Yil.
The UN and the US militaries better take that ******* out now, or we all in the world will be experiencing WW III in the near future.
If they let Kim Jon Yil get away with this than Iran will have a green light for go to make their nukes.
I will assume everybody knows what that will entails; al-Qaida with the big bomb.
It is time for the second Korean War or a possible third world war.
Make your choice!

To maintain peace on this planet blood is going have to be spill or all our blood is going to get spilled.
I already heard that if sanctions are inacted, North Korea is going to consider it an act of war.
So it looks like Korean War II is inevitable if the world punish that f**ker, Kim Jong.

Last edited by windu6; 10-11-2006 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:15 AM   #23
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There's no bomb. Otherwise he wouldn't make it this big news and all. If, then he'd just tested it, and everybody would have noticed it without him making a big deal out of it. And just because someone has "nuclear technology" doesn't mean he has "nuclear weapon technology".


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Old 10-11-2006, 06:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
There's no bomb. Otherwise he wouldn't make it this big news and all. If, then he'd just tested it, and everybody would have noticed it without him making a big deal out of it. And just because someone has "nuclear technology" doesn't mean he has "nuclear weapon technology".
Keep believing that, when you wake up to a bright flash some time in near the future then you will see the truth.
Even if they don't even have the bomb, as you believe as a trick it will give Iran the green light to try their chances at the task.
They are more likely to succeed at developing the bomb.
Iran nuke~al-Qaida nuke

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Old 10-11-2006, 06:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Keep believing that, when you wake up to a bright flash some time in near the future then you will see the truth.
Life ends, one way or another. And truth, well.. I grew up in the GDR during cold war, I know exactly how communism works, and I heard that **** every day. Screw that. I don't fear these kind of things.

See, if they going to test a bomb for the first time, why should they tell everybody? They wouldn't even know it's gonna work, and even if, it's still only one test bomb. So it is pretty much unlikely they build a hundred of them, because they don't know if they gonna work. Next thing is, a test bomb is far from being combat ready. So they have nothing, and at maximum the test was really an a-bomb, which obviously didn't work.

All that given, they would endanger the whole project to being raped down by the rest of the world's nations by stupidly bragging about it.

Quote:
Even if they don't even have the bomb, as you believe as a trick it will give Iran the green light to try their chances at the task.
They are more likely to succeed at developing the bomb.
Iran nuke~al-Qaida nuke
If the want to, they will, regardless if North Korea is "succeding" or not. Al Quaida is "cool" enough to go for something like 09/11, why should they give a damn about a non islamic Korea?


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Old 10-11-2006, 11:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
It seem like this society of the world today has gotten soft since WW II, people today keep believing today that diplomatic solutions is going to work with every dictator.
Well, that IS the whole reason that the US was created.
But even in WW2 people tried diplomatic solutions. Almost all the european nations tried treaties and appeasment with the nazis.. and the US sat around not getting involved for 3 or 4 years... so i don't think things have changed as much as you think.

N.Korea and Iran have been collaborating on nuclear weapons research, so if NK truely does have them then Iran will do shortly.

Personally i'm undecided on whether they really have them, or they are trying a Saddam style bluff to try and stop the US moving against them.

-

I think your wrong on sanctions though.. NK is in a terrible economic state, its basically supported entirely by china. That means china has immense leverage over NK. If china cut off all aid then i'd imagine the country would collapse pretty sharpish.

Now that we are all friendly with china, THIS is their chance to improve their image with the world.

Thoguh since the UK and US have been selling nuclear tech to all these countries I'm a bit confused about why we are now upset that they are using it.

-

I also think a war with north korea would be a lot different to a war with iraq.

Iraq had an army of about 400,000.
NK has one of over 1million. (plus enough reservists that their army is actually theoretically about double the size of the US)

Iraq didn't have any WMDs because we made them destroy them.
NK definately has WMDs.

We knew a lot about the iraqi situation due to lots of cia involvement, no fly zones, weapons inspectors (and their cia spies), etc...
We know very little about NK due to it being such a closed country.

The iraqi population had a lot more access to external media, and saddam was already in a weak position of power and likely to fall. This made it easy for the cia to convince a lot of his troops not to fight.
The north korean population is poor and hungry, but they have no access to external media and won't be easy for the cia to influence. there is no evidence that KJI is about to fall. They will probably actually fight.

Iraq was an easy war, followed by a long insurgency. Korea on the other hand i'd imagine being a very hard, costly war - but probably with less long term problems IF we won.

The only real way to try and beat NK without HUGE casualties on our side would be to use long range weapons to try and take out all their military... and that is gonna cause huge civilian casualties, and pretty swiftly get the population behind KJI.



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Last edited by toms; 10-11-2006 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:34 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Well, that IS the whole reason that the US was created.
But even in WW2 people tried diplomatic solutions. Almost all the european nations tried treaties and appeasment with the nazis.. and the US sat around not getting involved for 3 or 4 years... so i don't think things have changed as much as you think.
Well we will all see what those cowards at the UN do about that tyrant and his regime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
N.Korea and Iran have been collaborating on nuclear weapons research, so if NK truely does have them then Iran will do shortly.
That's exactly what I have said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Personally i'm undecided on whether they really have them, or they are trying a Saddam style bluff to try and stop the US moving against them.
Yes, there is always misdirection but I would'nt want the leaders of this world to take a chance with that nut.



Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
I think your wrong on sanctions though.. NK is in a terrible economic state, its basically supported entirely by china. That means china has immense leverage over NK. If china cut off all aid then i'd imagine the country would collapse pretty sharpish.
NK will take any sanctions as an act of war but we will see if North Korea is bluffing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Now that we are all friendly with china, THIS is their chance to improve their image with the world.
We aren't that close with them, Tom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Thoguh since the UK and US have been selling nuclear tech to all these countries I'm a bit confused about why we are now upset that they are using it.
If we don't get upset with that nut having a weapon of annihilation, then we will be dealing with a war of annihilation later.



Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
I also think a war with north korea would be a lot different to a war with iraq.

Iraq had an army of about 400,000.
NK has one of over 1million. (plus enough reservists that their army is actually theoretically about double the size of the US)
Yes it will be a real war; Iraq war II was a joke.
The war with the insurgence should be consider similar to the Vietnam War
So, you can say they are fighting two wars in Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
We knew a lot about the iraqi situation due to lots of cia involvement, no fly zones, weapons inspectors (and their cia spies), etc...
We know very little about NK due to it being such a closed country.

The iraqi population had a lot more access to external media, and saddam was already in a weak position of power and likely to fall. This made it easy for the cia to convince a lot of his troops not to fight.
The north korean population is poor and hungry, but they have no access to external media and won't be easy for the cia to influence. there is no evidence that KJI is about to fall. They will probably actually fight.
Of course they will fight, they are brainwash by that nut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Iraq was an easy war, followed by a long insurgency. Korea on the other hand i'd imagine being a very hard, costly war - but probably with less long term problems IF we won.
That war was easy because that fool Saddam didn't update his military so his forces was no match to US and British militaries.
He wasted resourses on himself that could have went to a modern military force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
The only real way to try and beat NK without HUGE casualties on our side would be to use long range weapons to try and take out all their military... and that is gonna cause huge civilian casualties, and pretty swiftly get the population behind KJI.
That will be a foolish option, they will have to invade that country.
It is about time for the UN to spill some blood for world peace.
The other choice will be a complete failure if they do it.

Last edited by windu6; 10-12-2006 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:02 AM   #28
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This Telegraph article mentions a quite ingenious (in my view) way to deter Kim Jong-Il and his cronies. It hits the nail on the head so badly that it's amusing:
Quote:
The resolution also blocks [...] the export of luxury goods to the North.


Not going to affect the civilian population the least, while at the same time hurting the elite. Ingenious and hilarious.

How effective it's going to be, though, I have no idea. Probably not much.

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Old 10-11-2006, 05:37 AM   #29
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Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:06 AM   #30
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Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?
Yeah, but Iraq was no major threat like North Korea is now, a severe threat at that.
If no one don't punish Kim Jong then their is going to be major hell to pay, for their lack vigilance.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:30 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?
Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

I do believe that this situation has a very good chance of being solved peacefully. This is THE opportunity for China to shine, to get the international prestige and recognition as a true superpower that it craves. If they can get NK to back down, they're going to be international heroes, and everyone will forget about their flagrant human rights violations, cutthroat trade policies that benefit from near-slave labor and their reckless disregard for the environment. They'd be fools to let such an opportunity pass them by, and they are anything but fools. I forsee a HUGE effort by China to get this crisis resolved with little or no help from the international community.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:34 AM   #32
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Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

I do believe that this situation has a very good chance of being solved peacefully. This is THE opportunity for China to shine, to get the international prestige and recognition as a true superpower that it craves. If they can get NK to back down, they're going to be international heroes, and everyone will forget about their flagrant human rights violations, cutthroat trade policies that benefit from near-slave labor and their reckless disregard for the environment. They'd be fools to let such an opportunity pass them by, and they are anything but fools. I forsee a HUGE effort by China to get this crisis resolved with little or no help from the international community.
I don't trust China, I don't believe they will do a damn thing.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:52 AM   #33
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I don't trust China, I don't believe they will do a damn thing.
I don't trust them either, and I don't pretend to know what they think. I only know how I would view and deal with this situation if I were in their position. I see this as a golden opportunity for political advancement, and I can't help but think that they see the same thing. It's right in front of them. Almost as if it were made to order...
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:09 AM   #34
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True. There's a time to act like a Jedi and a time to be decisive, and when the time comes you must act decisive. Of course people will criticise no matter what happens.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:18 AM   #35
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True. There's a time to act like a Jedi and a time to be decisive, and when the time comes you must act decisive. Of course people will criticise no matter what happens.
It's definitely time to act like the Jedi exile, during the Mandalorian War.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:03 AM   #36
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It's definitely time to act like the Jedi exile, during the Mandalorian War.
Now that I'd like to see. Or would I? Certainly it would be my fantasy for have a hero like the Exile resolve the situation. The question is whether or not someone like the Exile would quality as being the right woman for the task.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.
The two biggest problems with Iraq was the way the war was fought and the controversy surrounding it. Bush may like the tanks and planes but that's not the way war is fought anymore. The insurgents proved this when they kicked the Coalition's ass. And the controversy ranges from defying the UN to those Abu Gharib butchers to doubts and hypocracy over weapons of mass destruction.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:15 AM   #37
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Now that I'd like to see. Or would I? Certainly it would be my fantasy for have a hero like the Exile resolve the situation. The question is whether or not someone like the Exile would quality as being the right woman for the task.
There seem to be no one on this planet like the Exile, the possible ones are already dead or dying now.
The leaders are cowards and the heros are dead and dying.
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Old 10-11-2006, 10:30 PM   #38
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There seem to be no one on this planet like the Exile, the possible ones are already dead or dying now.
The leaders are cowards and the heros are dead and dying.
The only one who would be better in my view than the Exile is Revan, or maybe some other hero from some other piece of fiction. When it comes to real heros I think it's more a case that those who are willing to do something are not in a position to.

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The insurgents may be a pain in the arse, but they certainly have not kicked the Coalition's arse. We have not surrendered or retreated. War is messy and is not a neat and clean package like it's portrayed in history books. There'll likely continue to be skirmishes for some time, but that doesn't mean we've lost the war.
To say they were beaten is going a bit far. No question they were humbled and gives further fuel to the debate that Iraq's another Vietnam.

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Abu Ghraib--'butchers' implies to me 'killers'. There was torture, to be sure, and plenty of just really stupid crap going on there, but there was no evidence of mass murder to my knowledge.
The torture for fun **** perpetrated by Private England and her cohorts was exactly what I was referring to in the Abu Gharib butchery. No, there wasn't mass executions, but what they did was just as bad. It really shows how depraved they are and damages the American military as a whole.

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The point is moot, though. We're there now, and we need to finish the job stabilizing the country so the Iraqis can make the transition without having their fledgling government flushed down the toilet by a nasty little civil war. We made a mess, we need to accept the responsibility for it and finish the job of cleaning it up now.
That's the real bitch of it, and it's something anti Americans can use against the war in Iraq, in that if we pull out like they want then they can say we should have fixed the situation there. The same story with whether or not to go to war with North Korea, the same with acting on terrorist plots after criticism for not being able to prevent 9/11, the ****ers make it so that no matter what is done there's criticism.
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Old 10-11-2006, 11:39 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
The two biggest problems with Iraq was the way the war was fought and the controversy surrounding it. Bush may like the tanks and planes but that's not the way war is fought anymore. The insurgents proved this when they kicked the Coalition's ass. And the controversy ranges from defying the UN to those Abu Gharib butchers to doubts and hypocracy over weapons of mass destruction.
The insurgents may be a pain in the arse, but they certainly have not kicked the Coalition's arse. We have not surrendered or retreated. War is messy and is not a neat and clean package like it's portrayed in history books. There'll likely continue to be skirmishes for some time, but that doesn't mean we've lost the war.

Abu Ghraib--'butchers' implies to me 'killers'. There was torture, to be sure, and plenty of just really stupid crap going on there, but there was no evidence of mass murder to my knowledge.

WMDs--hard to tell on that. Since Saddam used nerve gas on the Kurds in the past, I imagine he's got something squirreled away somewhere. It's a big country to search. I don't think Powell would have put his reputation on the line to lie for Bush--I think they actually thought something more was there and they got a bunch of bad intel.

The point is moot, though. We're there now, and we need to finish the job stabilizing the country so the Iraqis can make the transition without having their fledgling government flushed down the toilet by a nasty little civil war. We made a mess, we need to accept the responsibility for it and finish the job of cleaning it up now.

North Korea--I'm still waiting to hear if it was a real blast, too, though with the zillion satellites we and other countries likely have trained on NK, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for an answer. Neither possibility would surprise me because of how unstable Kim is.
On a tangent, I was almost surprised that Venezuela condemned the test.


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Old 10-14-2006, 03:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The insurgents may be a pain in the arse, but they certainly have not kicked the Coalition's arse. We have not surrendered or retreated. War is messy and is not a neat and clean package like it's portrayed in history books. There'll likely continue to be skirmishes for some time, but that doesn't mean we've lost the war.

Abu Ghraib--'butchers' implies to me 'killers'. There was torture, to be sure, and plenty of just really stupid crap going on there, but there was no evidence of mass murder to my knowledge.

WMDs--hard to tell on that. Since Saddam used nerve gas on the Kurds in the past, I imagine he's got something squirreled away somewhere. It's a big country to search. I don't think Powell would have put his reputation on the line to lie for Bush--I think they actually thought something more was there and they got a bunch of bad intel.

The point is moot, though. We're there now, and we need to finish the job stabilizing the country so the Iraqis can make the transition without having their fledgling government flushed down the toilet by a nasty little civil war. We made a mess, we need to accept the responsibility for it and finish the job of cleaning it up now.

North Korea--I'm still waiting to hear if it was a real blast, too, though with the zillion satellites we and other countries likely have trained on NK, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for an answer. Neither possibility would surprise me because of how unstable Kim is.
On a tangent, I was almost surprised that Venezuela condemned the test.
I agree.

She is so cool when she is right.



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