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Old 11-25-2006, 05:07 PM   #1
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Iraq is the new Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I have noticed, especially here but other places as well, that some referrence to Bush or Iraq is almost guarenteed to arise in a thread. Not surprisingly, such referrences are made in much the same vein as Hitler and Nazis are, regardless of how inaccurate such comparisons are. Had anyone else noticed this? How about having Godwin's Law apply to threads where Bush and Iraq is brought up in threads such as censorship or religion.
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:19 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I have noticed, especially here but other places as well, that some referrence to Bush or Iraq is almost guarenteed to arise in a thread. Not surprisingly, such referrences are made in much the same vein as Hitler and Nazis are, regardless of how inaccurate such comparisons are. Had anyone else noticed this? How about having Godwin's Law apply to threads where Bush and Iraq is brought up in threads such as censorship or religion.
Ahh, I know what you are talking about, you talking about that argument you and Spider was having in my FCC thread.
When it turned into bush bashing.


Godwin's law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:40 PM   #3
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Iraq should be mentioned in every discussion on politics really, as it's the single most important issue in the world today. It's the issue of whether as the most powerful nation in the world, the US has a right to go around kicking sand in the faces of other nations.

As for comparing Bush to Hitler... you would seem to be the one who's making such comparisons.

Incidentally, Bush probably has less influence on US national policy than Hitler did on Nazi policy. You seem to be obsessed with Bush. Bush is an irrelevance.


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Old 11-25-2006, 06:23 PM   #4
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Interesting. Also, I don't recall a single person bashing Bush in the FCC thread.

Maybe Godwin should elaborate:
Law II: When pressed for answers or confronted with evidence that the US isn't always the Good Guys, neocons will attempt to say really stupid things like, "If you think the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq, then you hate Bush and think the US shouldn't have fought Hitler either! Oh, and invading Iraq was a mistake. I can throw tantrums about that and not look like an idiot while still slamming anyone who doesn't support the ongoing occupation, right?"


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Old 11-25-2006, 06:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Maybe Godwin should elaborate:
Law II: When pressed for answers or confronted with evidence that the US isn't always the Good Guys, neocons will attempt to say really stupid things like, "If you think the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq, then you hate Bush and think the US shouldn't have fought Hitler either! Oh, and invading Iraq was a mistake. I can throw tantrums about that and not look like an idiot while still slamming anyone who doesn't support the ongoing occupation, right?"
That law and yours are bias laws, in scientific terms, Mace.

Last edited by windu6; 11-25-2006 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:26 PM   #6
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Oh, rofl. Yeah, people will say absolutely anything.

Just for the record, we should never have gone into Iraq.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Oh, rofl. Yeah, people will say absolutely anything.
I noticed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy, once again...
Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?
Your eloquence is matched only by your charm.

There is a logical error running rampant in American politics in the last few years. It seems to stem from the fact that a lot of Americans are incapable of seeing the world in anything other than black and white, good and evil. "If you accuse us of doing evil things (war, torture, etc), then you're saying we're evil!" This is the logical fallacy that neocons have used to stifle any and all debate regarding the current US administration's military hegemony and abandonment of the Geneva Convention. Good and evil are in every single person, whether muslim, christian, American, Iraqi or whatever. Spider AL and I aren't the ones who automatically reach for this Hitler tag. Go back and have a look at who does.


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Old 11-26-2006, 01:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
There is a logical error running rampant in American politics in the last few years. It seems to stem from the fact that a lot of Americans are incapable of seeing the world in anything other than black and white, good and evil. "If you accuse us of doing evil things (war, torture, etc), then you're saying we're evil!" This is the logical fallacy that neocons have used to stifle any and all debate regarding the current US administration's military hegemony and abandonment of the Geneva Convention. Good and evil are in every single person, whether muslim, christian, American, Iraqi or whatever. Spider AL and I aren't the ones who automatically reach for this Hitler tag. Go back and have a look at who does.
It's true that there's a lot of dirty little secrets America wants to keep from the public eye. They have committed both mistakes and atrocities, there is much innocent blood on their hands. I cannot accept however the story that Elvis is one of the Roswell aliens (alongside Jimmy Hoffa) who faked his death to work for the FBI and used his magical singing to fly planes into the World Trade Centre so support would be bolstered for an invasion for Iraq's oil.

Okay, I'm not sure if that's the official version of what's meant to have really happened, I get confused when it comes to the debate over remote control vs government agents posing as hijackers.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Okay, I'm not sure if that's the official version of what's meant to have really happened, I get confused when it comes to the debate over remote control vs government agents posing as hijackers.
It's all my fault. The Voices came through the tinfoil antennae on my head and made me do it.
After a nice vacation in Hotel Asylum, however, I'm much better.


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Old 11-26-2006, 06:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I cannot accept however the story that Elvis is one of the Roswell aliens (alongside Jimmy Hoffa) who faked his death to work for the FBI and used his magical singing to fly planes into the World Trade Centre so support would be bolstered for an invasion for Iraq's oil.

Okay, I'm not sure if that's the official version of what's meant to have really happened, I get confused when it comes to the debate over remote control vs government agents posing as hijackers.
...

Uh...okee-dokee then. What do 9/11 nutball conspiracy theories have to do with what I said...? Or the topic of this thread...? Or should I just rather not want to know?


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Old 11-25-2006, 09:03 PM   #11
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_American_War

If I had to compare Bush to a historical figure, it'd be President McKinley, although McKinley's religious fanaticism was no doubt fake.



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Old 11-25-2006, 09:15 PM   #12
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although McKinley's religious fanaticism was no doubt fake.
I'm curious as to what evidence you've seen that makes you believe Bush's religious fanaticism is genuine.


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Old 11-25-2006, 09:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I'm curious as to what evidence you've seen that makes you believe Bush's religious fanaticism is genuine.
I've no hard evidence that it is, just a gut hunch that he believes at least part of what's coming out of his mouth.



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Old 11-26-2006, 12:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I'm curious as to what evidence you've seen that makes you believe Bush's religious fanaticism is genuine.
Why assume in the first place that their faith is fake? That's quite an accusation of something that none of us can really prove--we can't see into his heart to find out what his level of faith _really_ is. The demands of the Presidency are not really conducive to being able to attend church on a weekly basis
When I lived in TX when Bush was governor and long before he announced his aspirations for the Presidency, the guy went to church and said he read his Bible daily. That does not make him either a 'religious fanatic' or a 'fake religious fanatic'.

Probably could have a 'Temporary Godwin's Law' for controversial war decisions. Once the war is over, there can be temporary Godwin's law for some other controversial topic.


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Old 11-25-2006, 11:22 PM   #15
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Hmm. There is some cause to believe that the hyper-religiousness of many US politicians is necessary to ensure that they get the bible-belt's vote. I'd say Bush's seeming religiousness could well be as big a fabrication as his "good ole' boy" everyman image. He is, lest we forget, a spoiled Yale fratboy. Not a village idiot in a ten gallon hat- as his handlers like to portray him.


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Old 11-26-2006, 01:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

Why assume in the first place that their faith is fake? That's quite an accusation of something that none of us can really prove
One person has made assumptions regarding Bush's fundamentalism in this thread, namely Jmac. He assumed that Bush's convictions are genuine.

I have not "assumed" anything. I have simply stated that there are some reasons to support the hypothesis that many politicians (not merely Bush) routinely profess deep religious convictions because it's politically expedient to do so. Gaining the fundamentalist vote is important, especially in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

When I lived in TX when Bush was governor and long before he announced his aspirations for the Presidency, the guy went to church and said he read his Bible daily. That does not make him either a 'religious fanatic' or a 'fake religious fanatic'.
Neither does it "make" him a genuine Christian. Certainly the policies of his handlers- which he endorses- aren't very Christian. So what's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

Probably could have a 'Temporary Godwin's Law' for controversial war decisions. Once the war is over, there can be temporary Godwin's law for some other controversial topic.
The topic of the illegal US invasion of Iraq isn't going to magically disappear when US troops pull out, Jae, no matter how much you would like it to. It will merely take its rightful place in the list of past US atrocities that are constantly cited by every intelligent person campaigning for change in our political systems.

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Nancy: You're trying to imply that people who are honest about the US/UK war crimes in Iraq are conspiracy-theory-touting nuts. But it's not so. You're the only one who has brought up the topic of conspiracies here.


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Old 11-26-2006, 01:28 PM   #17
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Not at all. I have said that Iraq wasx a mistake, I've made it as clear as I could that Iraq was a mistake, and that yes America has committed atrocities. The reply? 'NO! NO! NO! I DEMAND YOU SAY THE EVIL BUSH EMPIRE DOES NOT CARE WHO IT HAS TO KILL OR WHAT LAWS IT HAS TO BREAK TO INVADE IRAQ'S OIL! SAY IT! SAY IT! SAY IT! WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!' Even if that's true, and I'm not saying it isn't, not only is it an extrodinarily childish way to act not being able to accept other's opinions and trying to force them to adopt your views is both selfish and will get you nowhere. Case closed.
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:01 PM   #18
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And now you're trying to portray us as hysterical. Reprihensible, especially considering your perpetual outbursts.

And for the two-hundredth time, Iraq was not a "mistake". There was nothing accidental about it. It was an intentional invasion to supplant a government unfriendly to US financial interests, with a government that is friendly to those interests.

Every time you call it a "mistake", you're excusing it.

As for "trying to force you to adopt my views", I've done nothing of the sort. I have tried to show you that all the evidence contradicts your- apparently arbitrary- views on the topic... But that's what rational debate is. The presentation of factual evidence and logical argument. You've done nothing of the sort in return, you've merely made insulting blanket statements over and over again. I strongly urge you to rectify this situation.


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Old 11-26-2006, 02:15 PM   #19
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Well for one thing you have not provided evidence, or answers to questions I have posed. All you've done is say Bush and America is evil for going into Iraq. You go off on an ego trip about how everyone is stupid for not agreeing with you and then attack when backed into a corner. Would you like me to go through each of your posts and point out exactly what I'm talking about? How there seems to be a lot of fiction spread about. You must tell wonderful stories to kiddies at the library. Although they must be confused when they're passed off as fact. I could but I'm really done having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Harsh words? Well I'm a stubborn bitch, so flame me not, it won't help! So, if this stuff upsets you, please go take a nice warm bath and get all cozy and warm and please forget about me. But, I also know, some half wit will still complain and have to have the last word... Go Figure!
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Old 11-26-2006, 07:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Well for one thing you have not provided evidence, or answers to questions I have posed. All you've done is say Bush and America is evil for going into Iraq. You go off on an ego trip about how everyone is stupid for not agreeing with you and then attack when backed into a corner. Would you like me to go through each of your posts and point out exactly what I'm talking about? How there seems to be a lot of fiction spread about. You must tell wonderful stories to kiddies at the library. Although they must be confused when they're passed off as fact. I could but I'm really done having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Harsh words? Well I'm a stubborn bitch, so flame me not, it won't help! So, if this stuff upsets you, please go take a nice warm bath and get all cozy and warm and please forget about me. But, I also know, some half wit will still complain and have to have the last word... Go Figure!
You still got me cracking up, Nancy.
Don't get mad, I'm just laughing at how you commented toward Spider.

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Old 11-26-2006, 03:47 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Well for one thing you have not provided evidence, or answers to questions I have posed.
I have provided evidence to support my views in Iraq-related threads, from independent polls to news reports to government documentation and press-releases. That's what debating is about, supporting your views with evidence and logic.

As for questions you've asked, I have tried to provide an answer to every question that has ever been posed to me. If I've missed one of your questions, please, ask it again and I will answer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

All you've done is say Bush and America is evil for going into Iraq.
I have never said this, ever. Only you have resorted to gross generalisations, I never have. Once again, show me where I have. I can show you where YOU have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

You go off on an ego trip about how everyone is stupid for not agreeing with you and then attack when backed into a corner.
I have never said that anyone was "stupid for not agreeing with me", once again you are simply... well, you're simply lying. And frankly, I don't recognise that I've ever been "backed into a corner" on the Iraqi issue. The issue is clear and the truths associated with it are self-evident. It's hard to be backed into a corner when you're merely stating the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Would you like me to go through each of your posts and point out exactly what I'm talking about?
Yes! Yes, yes please do. Actually quote something for a change. Use some examples for a change. Please do. I would welcome some civilised debate, for a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

How there seems to be a lot of fiction spread about. You must tell wonderful stories to kiddies at the library. Although they must be confused when they're passed off as fact. I could but I'm really done having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Harsh words? Well I'm a stubborn bitch, so flame me not, it won't help! So, if this stuff upsets you, please go take a nice warm bath and get all cozy and warm and please forget about me. But, I also know, some half wit will still complain and have to have the last word... Go Figure!
... Calm down please.


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Old 11-26-2006, 06:14 PM   #22
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Nancy, do you even read people's posts before responding?
Quote:
NO! NO! NO! I DEMAND YOU SAY THE EVIL BUSH EMPIRE DOES NOT CARE WHO IT HAS TO KILL OR WHAT LAWS IT HAS TO BREAK TO INVADE IRAQ'S OIL! SAY IT! SAY IT! SAY IT! WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody has ever said anything like this. Not Al, not me, not Dagobahn Eagle, nobody. You're the one who freaks out and posts flaming rubbish, not us. Quote one single line where anyone of the anti-Iraqi War camp has said anything about any "Evil Bush Empire" or America being evil. What, you can't? That's because we haven't. I've said in this very thread the problem seems to be that certain people (ie. you) can't seem to differentiate between criticism and attack. Yes, Spider AL can be a condescending prick when he wants (no hard feelings dude, but there it is...), but he has also stayed within the rules of polite and rational debate where you have completely abandoned them and launched into frothing personal attacks. And Al could out-debate you with one hemisphere of his brain tied behind his back.

So Nancy, what the hell is it exactly about the Iraqi War you're trying to say, anyway? You say that "going there was a mistake". Okay, we're on the same page here. Yes, America shouldn't have done that. We all agree on that. Now, I'm defining mistake not in the "Whoops! Didn't mean to invade there!" way, but in the "Our bad, we shouldn't have done that at all..." way. So what's with these hysterical outbursts of yours? Annoyingly, I keep needing to beleager this point: nobody is siding with any terrorist groups or saying Bush = Satan, yet you keep behaving as though we are. Stop it. It's aggravating, juvenile, and it makes you look like a complete idiot.


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Old 11-28-2006, 05:51 PM   #23
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I've found a very interesting documentary relating to Iraq, the "war on terror" and US/UK foreign policy, stored on Youtube. I actually saw this the first time it was shown on UK TV, and am thoroughly glad to find a copy still extant.

John Pilger's "Breaking the Silence" (Youtube)

I particularly like the archive footage of Powell and Condi telling the press exactly what Saddam's offensive capabilities were shortly before the invasion plans were drawn up. Oh, and the lovely US ambassador to the UN... what a standup guy.


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Old 11-28-2006, 09:01 PM   #24
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So Nancy, where are those quotes? You know, the ones where AL or I or anyone say Bush is evil or America is evil or anything like that? I'm waiting. And waiting.


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Old 11-28-2006, 10:16 PM   #25
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This is quite obviously not on the original topic, but it's right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I highly doubt that the US government would have any qualms at all about re-introducing the draft, should they feel the need to invade somewhere else and start a war on a third major front. After all, they'll need the troops in such an eventuality. And frankly, a little propaganda here, a little scare-mongering there... and the US public would shut up and accept it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
So in effect, you want to punish committed moralists for being so... so... so MORAL!

I may have couched that sentiment in a non-serious way, but I'm very serious, and it's a very serious issue. Anyone who objectively looks at the armed forces of any major world power cannot fail to realise that those armies are literally there to enact the immoral will of corrupt power centres. Therefore anyone who wishes to participate by joining the army is either poorly informed or worse, amoral themselves.

Your idea of emulating the policies of other nations that demand national service is tantamount to desiring that those who disagree with the army's perennially immoral acts around the world should be FORCED to participate in those acts. And if they don't wish to participate, they're to be treated like criminals and do community service.

Quite reprehensible, in short.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Maybe Godwin should elaborate:
Law II: When pressed for answers or confronted with evidence that the US isn't always the Good Guys, neocons will attempt to say really stupid things like, "If you think the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq, then you hate Bush and think the US shouldn't have fought Hitler either! Oh, and invading Iraq was a mistake. I can throw tantrums about that and not look like an idiot while still slamming anyone who doesn't support the ongoing occupation, right?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
And for the two-hundredth time, Iraq was not a "mistake". There was nothing accidental about it. It was an intentional invasion to supplant a government unfriendly to US financial interests, with a government that is friendly to those interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Instead of honouring their sacrifices, the government is sweeping them under the rug and treating them like a dirty little secret that shouldn't ever be shown or mentioned. By doing so, they're just trying to keep the voting public confronted with as few reminders as possible that the war the US started really is a shooting war, not just some abstract concept of something going on "over there", far away from anyone's daily life. And the more remote and abstract it becomes in the public's mind, the less important it becomes to stop it or pay close attention to just what the US government is running around doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
So there are several ways to solve the problem we have created... but we're not going to do it! Oh happy day!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
The idea that showing anonymous coffins on a news report would decrease your personal safety in any meaningful way is ludicrous, bordering on paranoia. I can only assume that it's indicative of the same culture of fear that resulted in broad US public quiescence when confronted with the totally mis-named "Patriot Act".
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
By concealing such powerful images from the public as pictures of the returning US/UK dead, the US/UK power centres are merely serving their own interests and using the "feelings of the family of the deceased" as a convenient excuse. And why? Because such images might spur more citizens into speaking out against the invasion. That's the last thing they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Ah! The old "I pay my taxes... so I should get to decide what you can and cannot do and see and watch!" fallacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I called your statement amounting to "If we show pictures of the soldiers coffins, their family home could well be broken into and the family victimised!" ludicrous, bordering on paranoia. Which it clearly is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Ohhh quote it all, Jae, quote it all. You dared to type "if it means that some anti-war groups aren't able to get their yukks out of seeing a bunch of coffins, too bad." Suggesting that anti-war people would laugh at images of dead American soldiers. Is this REALLY the image you have in your head of the way Anti-war people think and feel? If so, you're deluded. If I were to be uncharitable, I'd suggest that such vitriolic lies totally invalidated any opinions you might hold on all related topics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Wrong once again. And quite a glaring error too. If I'm "railing" against anything, it's the sentencing of Saddam by this immoral and illegal court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I realise that the sentence of the court, the court, and the government that appointed the court are all morally tainted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
The fact that I calmly recognise their amorality doesn't mean I'm their rabid foeman. But if YOU don't recognise their amorality, that does rather make you wilfully ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
So yes, he "set out to kill the people", in the same way that a mugger who beats people up and steals their cash "sets out to beat people up". Even if he has an ulterior motive for his violence, his violence is intentional and part of his crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
COURSE Bush and his buds intended to kill Iraqi civilians! There was absolutley no way to invade Iraq without doing so! Hell-oooo...! They knew that all along, and they ignored international law to go in anyway. The US invasion has killed far more people than all the suicide bombings in Israel and 9/11 combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
The gassing of the Kurds occurred in the early 90's after Desert Storm, and the US just sat back and watched him do it. They didn't intervene to prevent this, they just trot out Saddam's crimes to justify the war now.

And btw, the US did just leave Vietnam to communism in 1973, and it didn't do a damn thing about the Nazi takeover of Europe. The US only entered WWII in December 1941, long after the Nazis had swept through western Europe and were busy fighting the Russians, remember?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I said and still say that since the US government were perfectly aware of the potential cost of their invasion in Iraqi civilian lives but went ahead anyway, they are guilty of intentionally causing the deaths of the civilians. They knew the civilians would die en-masse, but they went ahead anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
As for individual soldiers, they're not guilty of the war crimes the US government is guilty of. Soldiers are only guilty of the lesser immoral act of ignorantly signing up to do the bidding of a clearly corrupt government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Oh believe me, I could have called professional soldiers much worse things. Like "wilfully ignorant puppets who abrogate responsibility for their actions more easily and willingly than they draw breath"... I think "noodle-heads" is a relatively mild- but accurate- description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Is that the best you can do? "Well, half a million Iraqis may be dead because of us in the space of three years... But... umm... YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT SADDAM AND HIS EVIL SONS WOULDN'T HAVE KILLED HALF A MILLION PEOPLE TOO!!!!11"

I mean that's what you're implying, isn't it. Quite pathetic. Even when the man was intentionally massacring Kurds, he never broke the 200,000 mark. And as I understand it, that's the Kurds' own estimate of the Kurdish death toll. How the hell was he going to cause the number of deaths we've caused in the same space of time? And WHY would he do it? Your stance is pathologically propagandist in nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
No, they're the people who really have to justify their actions to themselves and others. If you talk to a soldier who is fighting an unjust war, what's he going to tell you? "Oh yeah, I've been shooting people for no good reason." Of course he isn't going to tell you that. He's going to lie to himself and to you. Or better still, he'll just believe and repeat the obvious lies that his government has told him through his superiors. Much easier than making up your own falsehoods.
Okay, I admit "Bush is evil" was not once said, but the opinions behind these quotes, not to mention the rather trollish nature of some of them, are very clear.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:20 AM   #26
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Okay, I admit "Bush is evil" was not once said
Good. Now if you admit that "America is evil" was not said either (which you also asserted), and we can go forward from there. Once again, you have proven that while you seem to care a great deal about figureheads like Bush... I do not. I care about government as a whole, not just one man.

And if you think that one man who happens to be the public face of government has any impact on policy... then you've fallen into the trap set for you by power: becoming involved in the politics of personality that makes people forget that policy is the most important thing about any candidate. (or party.) Not whether they "seem like a good ol' boy".

Quote:
but the opinions behind these quotes, not to mention the rather trollish nature of some of them, are very clear.
I don't want to speak for Mace, but the opinion behind my quotes in that smorgasbord of... seemingly random excerpts you posted, is- fairly obviously- that of someone who wishes to question authority rather than blindly stumble after authority.

There's nothing "trollish" about any of the quotes you posted. You may not like the ideas contained within those quotations... but just because the truth is offensive to you, doesn't mean it's inherently offensive. I stand by every word in those quotations.

Now this is trolling:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy, once again...

Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?
But tell me, did you watch the Pilger documentary I posted? What are your opinions on the conclusions of the documentary?


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Old 11-29-2006, 03:28 AM   #27
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You think it's harsh to say the small sample of quotes I've posted is trolling? Well they've upset quite a few people and it's nothing less than what you said to me. If you think it's harsh, I have a quote from a proud Canadian. If you think saying your comments are trollish is harsh then in the words of Chris Benoit JUST PROVE ME WRONG.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:34 AM   #28
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You think it's harsh to say the small sample of quotes I've posted is trolling? Well they've upset quite a few people
If my statements about the amorality of our policy in Iraq have upset people, it's because they've been deluding themselves into thinking we're white-hatted good guys... and it's painful to give up delusions.

It's hardly trolling to challenge the political conceptions of most of the population.

Quote:
and it's nothing less than what you said to me. If you think it's harsh, I have a quote from a proud Canadian. If you think saying your comments are trollish is harsh then in the words of Chris Benoit JUST PROVE ME WRONG.
No, actually, accusers have the burden of proof. If you want to call me a troll, cite some examples of where I've insulted people, or made profane, outrageous statements with no logical basis.

If you are unable to provide any such statements (which I presume to be the case since if you HAD any such statements of mine, you'd have quoted them above) your accusation can be safely discarded as untrue.

You see, that's a very important moral point. People who make assertions have to back up those assertions logically. That's why our governments are guilty of misleading the people... because they make outrageous claims that are not only subsequently proven to be false and self-serving... they don't even provide any evidence worth a damn when MAKING those claims in the first place.

I'll say it again: But tell me, did you watch the Pilger documentary I posted? What are your opinions on the conclusions of the documentary?


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Old 11-29-2006, 03:38 AM   #29
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Remember this?

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Originally Posted by Spider AL
I called your statement amounting to "If we show pictures of the soldiers coffins, their family home could well be broken into and the family victimised!" ludicrous, bordering on paranoia. Which it clearly is.
It upset Jae terribly and you couldn't care less.

By the way, what's the point of throwing this up again all the time?

Originally Posted by Nancy, once again...

Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?

Do you hope to turn people against me if you post it enough times? Rather childish if you ask me.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:48 AM   #30
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I'll say it yet again: But tell me, did you watch the Pilger documentary I posted? What are your opinions on the conclusions of the documentary? Perhaps one day you'll actually answer a question.

Quote:
It upset Jae terribly and you couldn't care less.
Well first of all this is a debating forum, it isn't personal, and it isn't something to get emotionally invested in.

If objective analysis of a person's statements upsets that person, you're right, I couldn't care less. The statement I referred to WAS ludicrous, and it did border on paranoia. But Jae decided to infer that I was calling her "mentally ill"... Which, frankly, is also a ludicrous inference. So, no, I'm not exactly brimming over with sympathy. Confusion, possibly.

If I got "upset" every time someone critiqued my arguments on these forums, I'd be a wobbling mass of emotion, incapable of sustaining a logical argument.

Quote:
By the way, what's the point of throwing this up again all the time? Do you hope to turn people against me if you post it enough times? Rather childish if you ask me.
No, you see, that's an example of actually quoting some relevant material. You accused me of trolling, I showed that you'd posted things that were much more dubious than anything I've posted. This rather invalidates your accusation. QED.

But enough of this personal argument... Try addressing some points for a change. Let's get back to the subject of Iraq.


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Old 11-29-2006, 03:50 AM   #31
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Okay, you want me to answer your question. You answer mine, straight answer. This has nothing to do with Saddam or anyone else, so you don't need to worry on that score. Does George Bush have gas chambers and death camps where he sends terror suspects and Muslims, yes or no?
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:57 AM   #32
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Okay, you want me to answer your question. You answer mine, straight answer. This has nothing to do with Saddam or anyone else, so you don't need to worry on that score. Does George Bush have gas chambers and death camps where he sends terror suspects and Muslims, yes or no?
Okay, straight answer. The answer to the first part is that Saddam Hussein's regime didn't have "gas chambers", and neither does the Bush government, so it's an irrelevance.

The answer to the second part is that Saddam's regime ordered mass executions, but he didn't have "death camps". The Bush administration hasn't ordered mass executions of Muslims and it doesn't have "death camps", but it has certainly caused mass deaths with its wars and bombing campaigns. And not of "terrorists", but of innocent civilians.

So in terms of lives lost and oppression of peoples, the war crimes of Saddam's regime are comparable to our war crimes.

There. A total and complete and comprehensive answer to your question. Now answer mine: Did you watch the Pilger documentary I posted? What are your opinions on the conclusions of the documentary?


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Old 11-29-2006, 05:41 AM   #33
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Just before I answer I found this.

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Originally Posted by Spider AL
How DARE you. How DARE you suggest that "anti-war groups" would "get their yukks" from seeing the images of young mens' coffins returning home from an illegal and immoral war that has claimed their lives. How DARE you. I am sickened by this ignorant and insulting remark.
This was in reply to Jae's outrage over your comments, which contradicts your comments on not being emotionally invested in debates. I'll just touch on this a bit: I don't think you'd get your kicks out of watching footage of American soldiers being killed in Iraq. The sad thing is people would, moreover people would use them, and this is part of the reason over the debate, they would use the deaths of these soldiers for political gain.

Now, yes I did watch that video, and he also made another docuementary debating Israel's existence, but that didn't stop me from watching this powerful and hard hitting drama which gives a lot of insight to where people stand on the war. I have to give credit that unlike others he doesn't try to make a case for September 11 being a planned government attack or gives in to grandstanding, and for pointing out that we don't think about the effect things like America driving out the Taliban has. There is one inaccuracy though, in more people dieing in Afghanistan than on September 11. That's a mistake a lot of people make, the 2996 they think is from the World Trade Centre attacks alone, with the Pentagon and Flight 93 being almost forgotten. In reality the figure is closer to 5000. I'll just go over the end here.

"Are we now in danger of forgetting? Do we forget the lies used to justify the conquest of Iraq and disguise America's plans to dominate all the world?"

No, I don't think so. From day one people have protested the war, and that voice grew louder and louder until now the Democrats have been voted in. Should action have been taken sooner? I think the only reason it hasn't is because people saw Kerry as worse. No one has attempted impeechment however.

"Do we forget that the British government has announced for the first time that it's prepared to launch an attack with nuclear weapons..."

Couldn't quite make that last bit out. Direct quote to this, Britain are ****ing mad if they said this.

"And do we accept the extortion of intellect and morallity that empties noble words like democracy and liberation of their true meaning?"

Since the dawn of time people have been using these words as excuses. Pharoh used it to justify slavery and conquest in Egypt. That doesn't make it any less right however. Afghanistan and Iraq I believe were the targets of a regime change and the leaders in those countries needed to be removed, but with Iraq especially it all turned out horribly wrong. We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place.

"That says it's wrong for terrorists to kill innocent people but right for governments to commit the same crimes in our name."

I could say that in the case of Afghanistan and Iraq, soldiers were not told something like "the target is the village of Ab Nabi ****, all men women and children are to be eliminated. They are unarmed" the way terrorists on September 11 hijacked passenger planes with 200 or 300 people on board and killed them by flying the planes into their targets with the intent of killing as many people as possible and causing as much damage as possible. I think the point however is the inevitable and tragic loss of life that occurs in any war.

"The answer is that we need not accept any of this if we recognise that there are now two superpowers. One is the regime in Washington, the other is public opinion now stirring across the world as perhaps never before. Make no mistake it's an epic struggle. The alternative is not just the conquest pf faraway countries. It's the conquest of us: our minds, our humanity, and our self respect. If we remain silent victory over us is assured."

So make as much noise as you possibly can, not just online, in rallies and marches. Organise anti war protests, petitions, send every dollar you have to Afghanistan and Iraq and lobby others to do the same. If you feel so strongly over the issue stop whining about how unfair it all is and do something positive about it.
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Old 11-29-2006, 07:08 AM   #34
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And before I reply, I want to thank you for finally posting a response that actually replies in a relevant manner, and directly answers questions that have been posed to you. This type of response makes the debate MUCH more civilised and logical in nature. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

This was in reply to Jae's outrage over your comments, which contradicts your comments on not being emotionally invested in debates.
There's a difference between responding with understandable outrage to a scurrilous and insulting generalisation about anti-war people, and being so emotionally invested in a debate that you throw a wobbly every time someone points out the ludicrousness of your arguments. A big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

I'll just touch on this a bit: I don't think you'd get your kicks out of watching footage of American soldiers being killed in Iraq. The sad thing is people would, moreover people would use them, and this is part of the reason over the debate, they would use the deaths of these soldiers for political gain.
First of all: Anti-war people are anti-war because they respect life and the right to live. Some pro-war Islamic fundamentalist somewhere might laugh at the deaths of US/UK soldiers... but for Jae (and you) to suggest that people who are anti-war would "get their kicks" or "yukks" out of watching the coffins come home...

Well, it's sickening, as I said before. It shows a complete lack of understanding of why people are anti-war, what anti-war people stand for... and yes, it shows a complete lack of understanding of the politics behind the war. It's also very directly insulting to the most moral, decent people in the world today... people who are anti-war.

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Now, yes I did watch that video, and he also made another docuementary debating Israel's existence, but that didn't stop me from watching this powerful and hard hitting drama
It's not a drama, drama's fiction. This was documentary- factual in nature.

I'm not trying to nitpick you, I know you probably didn't mean it that way. I'm just making an important distinction that people have to remember.

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

I have to give credit that unlike others he doesn't try to make a case for September 11 being a planned government attack
Yes, Pilger is a good journo, and a sensible man. Only conspiracy theorist nutcases believe such things as "9/11 was done by the FBI!!!11" It's important to know that anti-war people are anti-war for sound logical reasons, that are usually a matter of public record. Not because of spurious conspiracy theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

There is one inaccuracy though, in more people dieing in Afghanistan than on September 11. That's a mistake a lot of people make, the 2996 they think is from the World Trade Centre attacks alone, with the Pentagon and Flight 93 being almost forgotten. In reality the figure is closer to 5000. I'll just go over the end here.
Actually Nancy, as far as I can tell (confiming by looking at all the news sites I can find) the 5000 figure you quote is the incorrect figure.

The generally quoted figure of 2973 (with some estimates ranging up to 3016) includes the passengers of all flights, including the pentagon, its flight and flight 93, and the emergency service workers who died on the ground.

Ref: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/29/wtc.deaths/
Ref: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...03/death.toll/

John Pilger doesn't get his facts wrong very often, and he was correct in this case. We have killed many many times the number of people that died on September 11th 2001. This is not to trivialise the deaths in the US, but merely to put them into context. Hell, even just the AMERICAN deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan vastly exceed the World Trade Centre/Aircraft deaths.

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

No, I don't think so. From day one people have protested the war, and that voice grew louder and louder until now the Democrats have been voted in. Should action have been taken sooner? I think the only reason it hasn't is because people saw Kerry as worse. No one has attempted impeechment however.
First of all, voting the Democrats in hasn't changed a great deal. Remember that Clinton signed a bill that essentially set regime change in Iraq on the agenda. This isn't just the Bush regime's war, this is a long-standing political goal. And no matter how often we change parties in office either in the US or in my home, the UK... we won't change the factors that control BOTH parties. Financial concerns, energy concerns, corporate backing.

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Couldn't quite make that last bit out. Direct quote to this, Britain are ****ing mad if they said this.
Oh you'd better believe it.

The British secretary of state for defence (at the time) Geoff Hoon, stated three times... once on national television in 2002 that the UK would be willing to launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq with our nuclear arsenal. Horrible, horrible. Illegal. Immoral.

Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...727982,00.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Since the dawn of time people have been using these words as excuses. Pharoh used it to justify slavery and conquest in Egypt. That doesn't make it any less right however. Afghanistan and Iraq I believe were the targets of a regime change and the leaders in those countries needed to be removed, but with Iraq especially it all turned out horribly wrong. We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place.
It has also turned out quite horribly wrong in Afghanistan.

The thing is, Nancy, that seeking regime change through military force is illegal under international law, and for a very good reason. If you want a regime to change in a foreign nation, you provide political and financial support to ordinary civilian people in that country. You don't fund violent revolutionary groups, you don't institute economic sanctions against the nation that kill more civilians than the nation's evil government officials are killing and you DON'T go into the country with an army. Period.

And the very good reason you don't do these things? Because historically without notable exception, doing ANY of these things causes more death and suffering in the targetted nation than even the most awful dictator could cause if left alone.

That's why I and many other people predicted that the people of Afghanistan and Iraq would be much worse off following US/UK invasion before the invasions. And, for that matter, that WE'D be worse off too.

It was predictable if you knew your history. Real history, not government approved history in which all US/UK wars have been "just" wars. Real history, in which oh, a grand total of... maybe one or two military interventions in our two countries' entire history that could even jokingly be described as altruistic have ever been fought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

I could say that in the case of Afghanistan and Iraq, soldiers were not told something like "the target is the village of Ab Nabi ****, all men women and children are to be eliminated. They are unarmed" the way terrorists on September 11 hijacked passenger planes with 200 or 300 people on board and killed them by flying the planes into their targets with the intent of killing as many people as possible and causing as much damage as possible. I think the point however is the inevitable and tragic loss of life that occurs in any war.
Well, you know, we could sit here and debate how relevant "direct intent" is all day, Nancy. But dead civilians are dead civilians, and I don't think their grieving families will have much time for the excuse "oh, your son's/daughter's death was tragic, but an inevitable cost of war".

Because they'll ask "Then why the hell did you decide to start the war if you knew there'd be civilian casualties like this?"

And they'd be right to ask this. Especially considering the fact that the reasons for going to war had nothing to do with saving Iraqi civilians from ANYTHING.

A man that kills people while robbing a bank is just as guilty of murder as a man who kills people for the sake of killing. The parallel is pretty exact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

So make as much noise as you possibly can, not just online, in rallies and marches. Organise anti war protests, petitions, send every dollar you have to Afghanistan and Iraq and lobby others to do the same. If you feel so strongly over the issue stop whining about how unfair it all is and do something positive about it.
"whining"? Now you're getting nasty, nasty... and silly as well. Who said anything about "just online"? Do you seriously think that people who bother to debate the issue of Iraq on the internet shut their computer down of an evening and stop thinking about all the innocent children that our government has murdered in our name?

I for one am already involved in the anti-war movement... And the campaigns to repeal these ludicrous "patriot acts" and reclaim our civil liberties. And now that you've been told the truth... it's up to you to involve yourself as well. But it's up to you to avoid wasting your efforts. Voting the Democrats in doesn't change a thing. You have to do really effective things. Take some of your own advice. The next demonstration you hear about? Go and stand with them. If you don't... you'll be a hypocrite.


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Old 11-29-2006, 03:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
First of all: Anti-war people are anti-war because they respect life and the right to live. Some pro-war Islamic fundamentalist somewhere might laugh at the deaths of US/UK soldiers... but for Jae (and you) to suggest that people who are anti-war would "get their kicks" or "yukks" out of watching the coffins come home...

Well, it's sickening, as I said before. It shows a complete lack of understanding of why people are anti-war, what anti-war people stand for... and yes, it shows a complete lack of understanding of the politics behind the war. It's also very directly insulting to the most moral, decent people in the world today... people who are anti-war.
Well, I'm not, please don't think I am, but...



There are some truely sick people who do cheer this sort of thing, and it's not just leftists. Palestinions celebrated the terrorist attacks on September 11. I know I cheered the bombing of terrorists in Afghanistan even though innocent people would be killed in the conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Oh you'd better believe it.

The British secretary of state for defence (at the time) Geoff Hoon, stated three times... once on national television in 2002 that the UK would be willing to launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq with our nuclear arsenal. Horrible, horrible. Illegal. Immoral.
Sack him. Now. Even America for all it's faults rejected proposals for nuclear retalliation for September 11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
"whining"? Now you're getting nasty, nasty... and silly as well. Who said anything about "just online"? Do you seriously think that people who bother to debate the issue of Iraq on the internet shut their computer down of an evening and stop thinking about all the innocent children that our government has murdered in our name?
By that I mean, what do you hope to achieve here? Convert a few neocons? Prove them wrong? What I'm saying is a lot more is going to be achieved bu having protests and rallies, which you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Right-o. Where to start.

The reason why I quoted that multilingual hissy fit was as a reminder of your own behaviour. You're calling me a troll and making snide comments about the opinions behind my comments, yet you blithely ignore what emotionally incontinent tantrums like that make you look like. It's childish for me to quote it, but it's not childish for you to post it? I don't think so. Nobody's trying to turn people against you, you don't need our help for that.
Using your logic things I have said are trollish. So using that logic some of the things you have said are also trollish, or don't the rules apply to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Well, wah. If people can't handle strong opinions that differ from their own, this is not the place to come.
Well I'm of the opinion that some of the things you've said are trollish. Handle that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I wasn't sure of the best place to post this, but this thread seems adequate. It's a picture taken on my school campus a few months ago. Every white flag you see is representative of 5-6 civilians that have been killed in Iraq since the United States invaded. Even this picture cannot quite display the true scope of what campus looked like, and what you see here is only a small portion of the coverage of the flags.

Perhaps THIS is why Iraq is the new Godwin's law. It bears being brought up because it's such a travesty.

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/5346/norlinxr7.jpg
Yeah, and like I said, like others have said, you don't really grasp what happens in war until you see things like this. That's not to say we should have it thrown in our faces but it is important for those who choose to to look at the full effect war has. And the effect of not going to war in the times war is nessecary (World War II for example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Afghanistan is a totally different animal. The goal there was to get al-Qaeda so we didn't have more planes plowing into buildings. I'm just sorry we didn't get bin Laden, though his kidney problems may have done him in instead of any US weaponry--we haven't seen him in awhile, though I could have missed something recently.
Hopefully. No question with Afghanistan there was a legitimate and justified reason for removing the ruling Taliban and putting an end to terrorism in the country, something which was a great success much more so than Iraq. You don't think about those in wheelchairs though, who have been starved or injured by the Taliban and couldn't escape the bombs dropped. That doesn't make Afghanistan wrong or paint it in the same light as Iraq, but it does clean us up to see what happened there.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:16 AM   #36
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Right-o. Where to start.

Quote:
By the way, what's the point of throwing this up again all the time?

Originally Posted by Nancy, once again...
The reason why I quoted that multilingual hissy fit was as a reminder of your own behaviour. You're calling me a troll and making snide comments about the opinions behind my comments, yet you blithely ignore what emotionally incontinent tantrums like that make you look like. It's childish for me to quote it, but it's not childish for you to post it? I don't think so. Nobody's trying to turn people against you, you don't need our help for that.
Quote:
This is quite obviously not on the original topic, but it's right here.
What's right there? You took some quotes of my posts then said nothing about them, aside from "Oh, I guess you didn't say that." To deal with a few of my statements, yes, the US did nothing about Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds when he was actually doing it. Yes, the US eventually had no choice but to leave Vietnam in 1973 after getting their butts kicked all over the country. Yes, aside from aid shipments to Britain, the US did nothing about the Axis powers until being attacked directly at Pearl Harbour in Dec 1941. These aren't judgement calls or opinions, they're bald statements of historical fact.

As for my assertion that the US intended civilian casualties in Iraq, you yourself say:
Quote:
I think the point however is the inevitable and tragic loss of life that occurs in any war.
And this is how. It's not that the guys at the Pentagon sat around a table rubbing their hands together saying, "Whee! Let's go slaughter us some defenceless civilians! Yee-haw!", it's by the simple act of okaying the invasion of a sovereign country they knew full well that civilian deaths would be inevitable. That's why you're not supposed to start wars unless you absolutely have to, and the US did not absolutely have to invade Iraq.
Quote:
From day one people have protested the war, and that voice grew louder and louder until now the Democrats have been voted in. Should action have been taken sooner? I think the only reason it hasn't is because people saw Kerry as worse. No one has attempted impeachment however.
Dealing with the war or US foreign policy in general isn't just about voting Democrat or Republican every few years, it's also about holding the administration in power accountable for its actions while it's in office. Bush is just one guy at the very top of the pyramid, and under him is a vast beaurocratic, political and industrial machine that moves to its own rhythm, quite out of sight and mind of most people. That's how US soldiers can go marching off to war with most of the population scratching their heads wondering why.
Quote:
Afghanistan and Iraq I believe were the targets of a regime change and the leaders in those countries needed to be removed, but with Iraq especially it all turned out horribly wrong. We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place.
Afganistan is a completely different kettle of fish entirely to Iraq. The US went after Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, who to the best of their knowledge were being sheltered by the Taliban in Afganistan. Going after someone who attacked you is not the same as just arbitrarily deciding to get rid of someone and trying to think up a good reason to do it. IMO, these situations are not comparable.
Quote:
So make as much noise as you possibly can, not just online, in rallies and marches. Organise anti war protests, petitions, send every dollar you have to Afghanistan and Iraq and lobby others to do the same. If you feel so strongly over the issue stop whining about how unfair it all is and do something positive about it.
Well, this is just an online discussion forum, isn't it? Maybe we are out there making noise and doing positive things, only you're just not seeing it because all this forum is for is abstract debating.
Quote:
It upset Jae terribly and you couldn't care less.
Jae's a big girl who's more than capable of defending herself and her beliefs. She can deal with it.
Quote:
You think it's harsh to say the small sample of quotes I've posted is trolling? Well they've upset quite a few people and it's nothing less than what you said to me.
Well, wah. If people can't handle strong opinions that differ from their own, this is not the place to come.


Be considerate to others or I will bite your torso and give you a disease!
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:58 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Jae's a big girl who's more than capable of defending herself and her beliefs. She can deal with it.
Yep, for the most part.
And if that doesn't work, that's why there's the 'report post' button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen
Afghanistan and Iraq I believe were the targets of a regime change and the leaders in those countries needed to be removed, .
Afghanistan is a totally different animal. The goal there was to get al-Qaeda so we didn't have more planes plowing into buildings. I'm just sorry we didn't get bin Laden, though his kidney problems may have done him in instead of any US weaponry--we haven't seen him in awhile, though I could have missed something recently.


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Old 11-29-2006, 11:11 AM   #38
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I wasn't sure of the best place to post this, but this thread seems adequate. It's a picture taken on my school campus a few months ago. Every white flag you see is representative of 5-6 civilians that have been killed in Iraq since the United States invaded. Even this picture cannot quite display the true scope of what campus looked like, and what you see here is only a small portion of the coverage of the flags.

Perhaps THIS is why Iraq is the new Godwin's law. It bears being brought up because it's such a travesty.

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/5346/norlinxr7.jpg




Last edited by ET Warrior; 11-29-2006 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:18 AM   #39
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:25 AM   #40
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Bah, use a higher screen resolution and avoid that problem.



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