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Old 06-19-2007, 07:44 AM   #1
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Was stopping the Nazis necessary?

Just as the title says, people can argue about Iraq and Afghanistan all they want, but what about the big one? What about stopping the efforts of Hitler and the Nazis to conquer Europe, exterminate the Jews, with them spreading the war to Africa and their allies Imperial Japan taking the war as far as America, or seeking a supernatural way to win the war and desicrating historical sites and writing Nazism into their history? Was it necessary to stop them? Why or why not?
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:24 AM   #2
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I don't know why you are so obsessed with it. It wasn't a necessary thing to do as history suggests, whether it was a nice thing to do or not, or what would have happened otherwise is another question. I didn't even say it was bad to roll in and end the regime. All I said was the Nazis had no chance of achieving their goal.


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Old 06-19-2007, 09:14 AM   #3
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Exclamation

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
I don't know why you are so obsessed with it. It wasn't a necessary thing to do as history suggests,
It WASN'T NECESSARY!
As I say again, what in the hell is you talking about?
*sigh* I don't know what to say.
Because this is ridiculous!




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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
All I said was the Nazis had no chance of achieving their goal.
They had every chance of achieving their goal, if Britain was conquered early in the war, and Hitler didn't invade Russia, they would rule the world now.
Man, I don't know what in the hell, you're not seeing.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:01 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Uh oh. HITLER CARD CODE DETECTED!!!

Quick everybody --- reboot!!

*reboots*

Phew. That was close.

Boohoo. The big bad Nazis. No, Nancy. (A) No country ever had the power to take on the whole world. Sooner or later the Nazis would have failed. (B) The clear alternative to violence would have been for Germans to not "support" Hitler in the first place. (C) The whole World War scenario was immoral, no need to discuss whether the intervention of the US was moral or not.
Happy now?
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:22 AM   #5
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Happy now?
Happy now with what?


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Old 06-19-2007, 09:40 AM   #6
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Why am I so obsessed with it? After chasing away one crazy creepy crawly I need a new chew toy. Guess who drew the short straw. Why? The following is a registered trademark of ET Warrior, copyrighted 2007.

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You are in a debate forum. People are going to debate with you when they believe you are stating things that are not correct.
I believe the notion that fighting against the Nazis was immoral and uncessary is open to debate.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:44 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``


I believe the notion that fighting against the Nazis was immoral and uncessary is open to debate.
Yes, I definitely agree with Nancy, here.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:25 AM   #8
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I think you're misconceiving something here Nancy. No one said the Nazis did alright, or should not have been fought back, or it was immoral to act against them.
All of World War Two was immoral, your words. Are you going back on that now and saying that we did the right thing? If so good.

Last edited by tk102; 06-20-2007 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
All of World War Two was immoral, your words.
No. My words were "The whole World War scenario was immoral", and that's what it was. Innocent civilians died on all sides. Pain and suffering was caused on all sides from all sides. That's why it all was immoral. War is immoral. I did not say anything else.

Did I say US intervention was immoral? No. Did I say the Nazis should not have been stopped? No. Did I say Nazis were doing good? No. Did I wish the Nazis wouldn't have been stopped? No.


I'm not sure, it's possible I speak Swahili and don't notice.


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Old 06-19-2007, 10:54 AM   #10
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Question

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
War is immoral.
Well, this issue is going to continue to be argue.

But war is going to continue to happen; blood is going to have to continue to be spilled to maintain peace on this rock, or any other rocks in this galaxy, in the future that we occupy.

We don't inhabit a utopia, yet.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
No. My words were "The whole World War scenario was immoral", and that's what it was.
Precisely, you said the whole World War scenario was immoral. That means what the Nazis did was immoral, Britain defending their country was immoral, Rommel realising Hitler's evil and defecting was evil, Normandy was evil, all of it. America tried to do the moral thing and stay out before they were attacked. Should we have just let the Nazis do as they please? Would that have been the moral thing to do?

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Did I say US intervention was immoral? No.
Yes. "The whole World War scenario was immoral" meaning that US intervention was immoral. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot say that everything about the war is immoral and then claim you didn't say it.
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Old 06-20-2007, 05:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Precisely, you said the whole World War scenario was immoral. That means what the Nazis did was immoral
Boah. No, Nancy. It means the WW was immoral without picking a certain party. Simply because war itself *is* immoral, regardless of which war in human history you chose, they were immoral.

Additionally it can be said that, without doubt, the Nazis did a lot of immoral things, yes. And as you might notice, it's a different sentence with a different statement.

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Britain defending their country was immoral
They were defending themselves, so no.

Quote:
Rommel realising Hitler's evil and defecting was evil
Realising something clearly cannot be immoral/evil/whatever.

Quote:
Normandy was evil, all of it.
So we're now moved on from the question of morality to being evil?

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America tried to do the moral thing and stay out before they were attacked.
Trying to keep out of an immoral war is not an immoral act.

Quote:
Should we have just let the Nazis do as they please? Would that have been the moral thing to do?
Of course not! Don't you know how bad the Nazis were? XD

In fact, the notion to stop the Nazis was very moral. However, not killing endless numbers of innocent civilians would have been moral, too.

Quote:
Yes. "The whole World War scenario was immoral" meaning that US intervention was immoral.
It stands there written in clear, understandable words. What is it that you cannot comprehend? The World Wars as a whole were immoral. P-E-R-I-O-D. There is not the slightest indication that even allows to read words like "US" or "intervention" into it.

I did not say and do not say the intervention was immoral. In fact I consider it a very moral motive if you want to end an immoral war. The bombings of cities, where innocent civilians died painful, is something I consider highly immoral, though.

Quote:
You cannot have it both ways, you cannot say that everything about the war is immoral and then claim you didn't say it.
Huh? I don't deny saying the World War scenario was immoral? I deny that I said anything else with it. Especially things that YOU read into it. You obviously don't even try to understand where I am coming from. You just go all "RANA RANA RANA RHUBARB RHUBARB RHUBARB" without even noticing what I tell you for the second day now. I mean, it's almost unbelievable, I say NO I DON'T SAY NAZIS DID GOOD and you keep stating that I would say this with every word I say. Why? Do you think I will give in with the time?

As an unrelated example, if a guy says he doesn't like girls that doesn't mean he has gay tendencies, it just means he doesn't like girls. Tell me, can you abstract that?

---

Hm. Okay Nancy, for the very last time I will repeat myself (and rephrase):

In case no one ever would have taken action in fighting back the Nazis, be it Russia, the UK, the US, France, whoever else, the Nazis would possibly have come much further than they were, but considering that all past empires, even if they became really large and were brutal and oppressing in nature, are gone for good, the fictive Nazi empire would be encounter the same fate sooner or later. Seeing it from that point of view, the historical point of view, one could conclude that in order to "just have the Nazis disappear" no explicit action was necessary, even if that means the Nazis would last a thousand years longer -- but I think we all agree that no one wants or ever wanted that, and we all are shiny happy dancing people today because it came otherwise, and we could send a man to the moon and debate whether the climate is changing or not.




---

As a further note to all readers - I won't participate in this poll, as it clearly does not stand in original context to my statement from the Revisiting Moral Objectivism with Mathematical Notation thread. This poll is utterly useless and so is the (falsified) message it tries to bring across.

Also, I suggest closure of this thread, and a reopening of the other one, including a clean up starting from post #82 at least. (But not #71 m'kay )


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Old 06-20-2007, 06:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Additionally it can be said that, without doubt, the Nazis did a lot of immoral things, yes.
Nazis did a lot of evil things, should be included in this statement.

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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
In fact, the notion to stop the Nazis was very moral. However, not killing endless numbers of innocent civilians would have been moral, too.
People die in war, some people can't accuse every soldier, pilot and sailer who fought in that war as immoral, innocent blood is going to be spilled; it's just going to happen.
Evil must be stop by any means necessary, well people in the world would have to just continue to argue this.
Logicians seem to don't factor in evil; only positive right and negative wrong, in terms of morality.
Logicians seem to believe that evil don't exist, since some people consider evil supernatural; so not subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material and can't be tested by science, as the skeptics of evil would argue.

Evil can use the philosophy of morality, to make their evil seem positive good from their perspective.
Like the Nazis did with their murdering of the Jews, ethnic minorities, mentally ill and homosexuals, in the death camps.
Evil can make evil seem good.

People must be aware of this!

Last edited by Windu Chi; 06-20-2007 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:17 AM   #14
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I think you're misconceiving something here Nancy. No one said the Nazis did alright, or should not have been fought back, or it was immoral to act against them. It was said that a possible Nazi empire would sooner or later have fallen down even without US intervention, not to mention the fact that conquering the whole world plus having the reliable support of the invaded nations for a longer period of time is not one of the things you do between breakfast and lunch. Not more not less.

Oh, and debate me all you want Nancy, I am "invincible"


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Old 06-19-2007, 10:26 AM   #15
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I think the war would have turned out completely different if Hitler wouldn't have attacked Russia. Fighting a two-front war is just plain stupid.

And regarding the main question here, yes I think it was necessary to stop their war campaign.

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Old 06-20-2007, 07:47 AM   #16
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My my Ray, you sound upset. What's wrong? It might be advisable to be careful, the way you're bouncing off the walls you could have a heart attack or anything.

Perhaps what you are trying to say is that as immoral as it is there are times war is necessary, such as fighting against tyranny, opression, prosecution and, in the case of the Jews, annihilation. There is still the matter of whether or not fighting the Nazis was necessary. You maintain that it wasn't, as all evil empires eventually die out. It might take a thousand years but they will eventually fall. Unfortunatly for you and Nazi Germany the world couldn't take that chance. We could have acted and saved most of Europe from the Nazis, you yourself say how bad they were, and stopped their future plans which included speeding up their plans for genocide and destruction rather than conquer. Or we could have thought it unnecessary to act and see how many years, decades or even centuries it would have taken for the goose stepping, sieg heiling mass murderers to fall.

Now, with you screaming for this thread to be closed, TK is cut because he feels I derailed his thread. Perhaps he would like to return the favor. May I suggest home decorating?
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Old 06-20-2007, 08:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
My my Ray, you sound upset. What's wrong? It might be advisable to be careful, the way you're bouncing off the walls you could have a heart attack or anything.
Ooookaaay. "Bouncing off the walls" was exactly what I thought with you jumping like a spumous fury on my "necessity" statement. You couldn't take for but one second someone could seriously think Germany could have been defeated without your oh so glorious country.

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Perhaps what you are trying to say is
There are like thousand posts regarding that issue.

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There is still the matter of whether or not fighting the Nazis was necessary. You maintain that it wasn't, as all evil empires eventually die out. It might take a thousand years but they will eventually fall.
o___________;; Nancy, is that you?

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Unfortunatly for you and Nazi Germany the world couldn't take that chance.
Fortunately for me and my country. The hell, who wants the Nazis around? I don't.

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and stopped their future plans which included speeding up their plans for genocide and destruction rather than conquer
Maybe that's a topic for another thread, how "effective" or "useful" it is to destroy everything and kill everybody around when you actually have plans to conquer the world. Until then my opinion is it's a stupid idea.

Quote:
Or we could have thought it unnecessary to act and see how many years, decades or even centuries it would have taken for the goose stepping, sieg heiling mass murderers to fall.
What a luck no one did, huh?


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Old 06-20-2007, 09:21 AM   #18
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The hell, who wants the Nazis around? I don't.
A lot of people in this world would want Nazis around, especially the neo-Nazis, how stupid they are, the real Nazis, wouldn't give a damn about them, they would be slaves or perish in the death camps, if the Nazis was still around, now.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:03 AM   #19
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Aww, we have someone here who hates America do we? Maybe the war could have been won without America. I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it was very necesary to stop the Nazis. You said yourself that you don't want to live under their rule. Well that's what you could be facing if it was decided it wasn't necessary to act, especially if it can take a thousand years for an evil empire to fall.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:27 AM   #20
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Nancy, why should I hate the US? I did not say such thing. I merely mocked your national pride.

I also never said that back then it was ever up for disposition whether or not acting was necessary. Clearly everybody with some sense for humanity would deem it necessary to stop the Nazis. But everybody with some sense for humanity would also deem it very unnecessary to drop a-bombs over densely populated cities.


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Old 06-20-2007, 09:34 AM   #21
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But everybody with some sense for humanity would also deem it very unnecessary to drop a-bombs over densely populated cities.
Yes, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing was unecepetable, and nuclear bombs in war is unecepetable, because that can lead to extinction of our species.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:32 AM   #22
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But you deem it unnecessary, you've said several times now that it was unnecessary. Or are you just upset that your country was America's bitch? Is that what it is? Anti Americanism at work? Another crybaby who cannot stand the fact we are the greatest country in the world.
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Old 06-20-2007, 10:02 AM   #23
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Quote:
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But you deem it unnecessary, you've said several times now that it was unnecessary.
You don't get it. It's just a hypothetical point of view, according to what human history teaches us.

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Or are you just upset that your country was America's bitch? Is that what it is? Anti Americanism at work? Another crybaby who cannot stand the fact we are the greatest country in the world.
Haha, "anti Americanism at work". You crack me up. The US surely did some great things. With the help of some great German personalities. ^^

Listen, if you (in person) would stop being so self centred and all self loving you might notice that I am by no means a person that would ever state such ignorant stuff like country A > country B. Comparing dicks is for chumps.

And for the record, America is not a country. It's a continent. And the fact that you continuously keep pointing out how cool your country is makes me wonder if you are possibly the "crybaby" that is afraid that someone might not notice the "fact" of "America being the greatest country". XD


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Old 06-20-2007, 10:11 AM   #24
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The fact much of the world is jealous of America and what she stands for is enough to convince me of her greatness. I don't need to rub people's faces in it, but seeing how people react when I do is fun.
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Old 06-20-2007, 10:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
The fact much of the world is jealous of America and what she stands for is enough to convince me of her greatness. I don't need to rub people's faces in it, but seeing how people react when I do is fun.
Nancy Allen consider yourself WARNED for flamebaiting. Tone it down and stick to the debate.
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