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Old 06-02-2008, 07:39 PM   #1
M@RS
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Evolution

I love to argue, so I'm putting this thread here, so that anybody who wants to argue about evolution come here, I'd love to chat with you...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:45 PM   #2
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Okie dokie. Where did you want to start?
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:46 PM   #3
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hmm. do you believe in evolution?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:48 PM   #4
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In the spirit of keeping the answer simple, I'll reply with "yes".
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:50 PM   #5
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why do you believe in evolution? scared there might be a god?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:57 PM   #6
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why do you believe in evolution?
Because of the overwhelming evidence that supports it.

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scared there might be a god?
If I was scared that there might be a god, wouldn't that tend to make me a theist?

Also, please help me understand how the process of changes in life over time have any impact on the existence (or non-existence) of god. There are many self-proclaimed theists that have absolutely no problem accepting evolution. How do you know that evolution isn't god's way of allowing her creations to adapt to their changing environments without having to interfere directly?
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:59 PM   #7
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Because of the overwhelming evidence that supports it.

If I was scared that there might be a god, wouldn't that tend to make me a theist?

Also, please help me understand how the process of changes in life over time have any impact on the existence (or non-existence) of god. There are many self-proclaimed theists that have absolutely no problem accepting evolution. How do you know that evolution isn't god's way of allowing HER creations to adapt to their changing environments without having to interfere directly?
There is no evidence for evolution, name one for me


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:07 PM   #8
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why do you believe in evolution? scared there might be a god?
I believe in evolution because to me, it appears to be the far more logical theory. If I were scared there might be a god my opinion would be much like yours; believing otherwise.

As for your general views and basis of argument, I think you should be pretty ashamed of yourself as a christian for using your religion as a weapon. This "scared there might be a god?" crap is ridiculous. But I won't go off topic.

Disclaimer: I read only up to the quoted post.


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Old 06-02-2008, 08:01 PM   #9
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Oh, here we go again...

I'm with Achilles.

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Old 06-02-2008, 08:01 PM   #10
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Just one? Okay.

Please answer my other questions in your next response. Thanks in advance.

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Oh, here we go again...
Ya know, oddly, this never gets old for me

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I'm with Achilles.
Thanks man.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:15 AM   #11
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I've decided to go through this whole thread and answer as many Q's as I can related to Evolution and Creationism, please don't ask any more but allow me to answer the ones I was unable to earlier...

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Just one? Okay.
Whales have don't "vestigal" bones (they say it proves that it used to be used for walking) those bones serve as anchor points for muscles. Without them whales can't reproduce, they have nothing to do with walking on land... Even IF it was vestigal, isn't losing something against evolution?

Some of you asked couldn't have God just used Evolution?

Simply put, no... God didn't use a process in which millions of creatures have to die just to get the perfect creature. Besides he's perfect, if he created something macro evolution doesn't need to happen in order to perfect it... Sure micro evolution happens but it's not to perfect an animal, but to allow it to fit into it's surroundings better. If you claim to be a Christian and believe in Evolution, you're not a Christian because you don't believe in the Genesis Account.

I will work on the rest later... You guys sure can ask a lot of questions...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.

Last edited by M@RS; 02-24-2009 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:13 AM   #12
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Whales have don't "vestigal" bones (they say it proves that it used to be used for walking) those bones serve as anchor points for muscles. Without them whales can't reproduce, they have nothing to do with walking on land... Even IF it was vestigal, isn't losing something against evolution?
No. "Losing something" isn't "against evolution." It will be exceedingly difficult to engage in discourse if you aren't prepared, so I might recommend Biology by Miller and Levine, you can pick up used versions at any used book store. This will give you some primer and offer good source material for evolutionary theory.

The vestigial bones on whales are, indeed, vestigial bones. We have a seriation of fossils that exist chronologically in strata and show the gradual changes these bones went from legs to their current form. This is empirical data. To give an idea, these are but a few diagrams:




"The photo shows three ankles, respectively those of Rodhocetus, a modern pronghorn antelope, and Artiocetus. Remarkably, all three show a "double-pulley" astragalus. The astragalus is the bone with the deep, rounded groove in it (imagine a rope fitting into the groove of a pulley wheel). This groove, called a trochlea, fits another bone to form a sliding joint. The artiodactyl astragalus -- in both the modern pronghorn and these ancient swimming whales -- has the unique feature of having two trochleas, one on each end. This is the "double-pulley." These protocetid whales were definitely not runners, but they retain a clear mark of their ancestry as hoofed running animals. "

Protocetid hindlimb/ankle reconstructions from Figure 2, p. 2241 of: Gingerich, P. D.; M. Haq; I. S. Zalmout; I. H. Khan; and M. S. Malkani (2001). "Origin of Whales from Early Artiodactyls: Hands and Feet of Eocene Protocetidae from Pakistan." Science 293(5538), 2239-2242.



Muizon, Christian (2001). Walking with Whales. Nature 413, 259-260.

http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

Its not clear why you state that the bones on whales are not vestigial. Perhaps they were used for muscle attatchment -from photos I've seen, however, I don't see the raised ossification indicative of muscle attatchment- but that doesn't imply they aren't vestigial.

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God didn't use a process in which millions of creatures have to die just to get the perfect creature. Besides he's perfect,
In that case, this would seem to be evidence for an absence of gods.

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You guys sure can ask a lot of questions...
I see no reason to ask you questions regarding evolution as there is no indication that this is a subject you're well-versed in. Sorry.


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Old 06-02-2008, 08:06 PM   #13
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okay the answer to your question sorta it depends, if your scared of one it depends on how you fear it, A theist is a person who believes in a god, and I read the article (fast reader) at least part of it and can easily answer that. The bone seperated from the whale is not part of an evolving leg. Answer me this, why were the bones of Lucy at least 2 miles apart?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:12 PM   #14
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okay the answer to your question sorta it depends, if your scared of one it depends on how you fear it
What does that mean? Someone is scared of god so they choose not to believe? I'm not sure how that makes sense.

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A theist is a person who believes in a god
Indeed that is true, but what does that have to do with evolution? Again, how do you explain theists that also except evolution (Francis Collins and Ken Miller spring to mind)? How do you prove that god didn't "invent" evolution?

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...and I read the article (fast reader) at least part of it and can easily answer that. The bone seperated from the whale is not part of an evolving leg.
What is it then? How do you intend to disprove or discount the evidence that it is a vestigal leg?

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Answer me this, why were the bones of Lucy at least 2 miles apart?
The argument for evolution does not hinge on Lucy.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:16 PM   #15
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One, people scared of god deside to deny it and tend to believe in something else, that way they can still screw around and not have to worry about it, two, the "vestigal leg" is not a growing leg it's just a frivolous bone that the whale could live without, three, the argument for evolution does hinge on Lucy because she still tricks people into believing in evolution. You still didn't answer my question...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:22 PM   #16
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One, people scared of god deside to deny it and tend to believe in something else, that way they can still screw around and not have to worry about it
First, this still doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Second, it's completely unrelated to the topic of evolution, so please either find a way to make it relevant or drop it.

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two, the "vestigal leg" is not a growing leg it's just a frivolous bone that the whale could live without
Okay, but what it is specifically? How did it get there? If living things are the result of design, and that designer is god, and god is perfect, then why do all cetaceans just happen to have this "frivolous bone" (dolphins have them too )?

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, three, the argument for evolution does hinge on Lucy because she still tricks people into believing in evolution.
Wrong. Try again.

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You still didn't answer my question...
Funny, you haven't answered mine either

EDIT: The correct argument is "all cetaceans" not "all sea mammals". I've made the necessary correction above.

Last edited by Achilles; 06-02-2008 at 08:24 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:47 PM   #17
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Okay, but what it is specifically? How did it get there? If living things are the result of design, and that designer is god, and god is perfect, then why do all cetaceans just happen to have this "frivolous bone" (dolphins have them too )?
Mankind sinned and not everything is perfect anymore and besides humans have things in them that they could live without, like kidney's and besides that bone may do something the whale knows about and we don't. Scientists have discovered that Sperm Whales use Sonar because they can't see in front of themselves so they use Sonar to map and "see" where it's going. We still don't know everything about our own world. And if you think I'm not worth this argument then look up Eric Hovand, he is worth it and he is where I learned all of why evolution is a joke...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:54 PM   #18
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We still don't know everything about our own world.
Indeed. But why not accept it? instead of going with the assumption that there has to be a higher deity or god behind everything.

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Old 06-02-2008, 08:37 PM   #19
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It looks like you just started this thread in hopes of arguing with people. I find there is different types of arguments: The constructive kind, and the destructive kind. I feel you are doing the latter.

Why not state your point of views in the first place, instead of bombarding Achilles with question after question?





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Old 06-02-2008, 08:43 PM   #20
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*shrugs*

Since we know that he doesn't know the subject now, we can only hope that by removing his objections, he'll have to learn about it at some point. Otherwise, he'll simply repeat his fallacies from a position of ignorance until he gets tired and gives up.

So really, he has everything to gain and nothing to lose.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:57 PM   #21
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Because there is, a little off topic, but I've seen people get out of wheelchairs who with the doctor's help had no chance of walking again, you telling me they were lying and sat in a wheelchair for 20 years?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:05 PM   #22
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Because there is
Proof?
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...but I've seen people get out of wheelchairs who with the doctor's help had no chance of walking again, you telling me they were lying and sat in a wheelchair for 20 years?
Ah, this one I've heard before. I'm going with the presumption that you've witnessed this yourself? and not just telling me something you've read on the internet. Miracles is a tough subject, but I tend not to believe occurrences where someone has reportedly sat in a wheelchair for 20 years and then suddenly gotten cured. I would probably believe it if I saw it with my own eyes and if I knew that the person was really disabled, in this case I still wouldn't explain it with "god did it."

Anyway, let's get back on topic.

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Old 06-02-2008, 09:09 PM   #23
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Proof?

Ah, this one I've heard before. I'm going with the presumption that you've witnessed this yourself? and not just telling me something you've read on the internet. Miracles is a tough subject, but I tend not to believe occurrences where someone has reportedly sat in a wheelchair for 20 years and then suddenly gotten cured. I would probably believe it if I saw it with my own eyes and if I knew that the person was really disabled, in this case I still wouldn't explain it with "god did it."

Anyway, let's get back on topic.
I did not read it from the internet or witness it... I've had hundreds of people tell basically the same story, and I've read an account of someone who was crippled and is walking normally now...(not on the internet; in an email)


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:04 AM   #24
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Because there is, a little off topic, but I've seen people get out of wheelchairs who with the doctor's help had no chance of walking again, you telling me they were lying and sat in a wheelchair for 20 years?
Please, House fixed that one guy in less than an hour, with commercial breaks!


But in all seriousness, there is no way Hovind would EVER give that prize away. Evolution in and of itself will never be able to be accepted by certain individuals, even with the innumerable amounts of evidence, because opponents will always find something wrong with it.

Scientists are extremely competitive and oftentimes extremely hostile toward others researching the same thing. Religious people feel that scientists are stepping on their toes because they believe science is nearing the theological/religious border. As a result, many religious leaders are acting hostile toward these scientists and finding minute flaws to obsess over.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:02 PM   #25
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Evolution in and of itself will never be able to be accepted by certain individuals, even with the innumerable amounts of evidence, because opponents will always find something wrong with it.
I find it incredibly interesting how creationists are terribly rigorous with their standards of acceptance for the scientific Theory of Evolution (though seemingly not for gravity, electricity, etc), but not the least bit rigorous when it comes to creationism or religion in general.

Seems a bit unfair that one set of ideas has to jump through an infinite number of moving goals posts while another doesn't have to provide any evidence at all. What's worse is that these people insist on being taken seriously as critical thinkers. Nice, huh?
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:23 PM   #26
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Please, House fixed that one guy in less than an hour, with commercial breaks!
So really it was 43 minutes.

Brilliant point

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Old 06-28-2008, 07:28 PM   #27
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Please, House fixed that one guy in less than an hour, with commercial breaks!
Actually, he solved it like half an hour but Cuddy was all "No you need proof to give him cortisol blah blah blah I'm barren blah blah" and then she gave him the shot as he was leaving but didn't tell House until a few episodes later :/



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Old 06-28-2008, 07:37 PM   #28
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Actually, he solved it like half an hour but Cuddy was all "No you need proof to give him cortisol blah blah blah I'm barren blah blah" and then she gave him the shot as he was leaving but didn't tell House until a few episodes later :/
That's about the only right thing she said, too.

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Old 06-02-2008, 09:07 PM   #29
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What about the Bible there is no way men who were 40 generations apart could write down the exact words of someone who lived 1000 years before, there had to be God behind everything, read about the scientists who are trying to recreate evolution, they say that life was created by a lightning strike, try shocking a cell with electricity and you'll notice that the cell is going to fry, also evolution says that everything living creature came from the rocks because after all they say that it rained on the rocky crust for millions of years and the water mixed with the minerals in the rocks and became a soup...the soup was shocked with lightning and life was created into a cell that happened to evolve and split in two forming a male and female...notice the phrase "millions of years" do you know what that means? that means a fairytale is coming afterwards look at Star Wars "long, long time ago" (millions of years) see what I mean...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:45 PM   #30
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What about the Bible there is no way men who were 40 generations apart could write down the exact words of someone who lived 1000 years before
Oh yeah they could. Look at now. People writing the Qur'an are writing the same words of 1,400 years prior. It's really not all too different.

Ever hear of a thing called "cutting and pasting"?

I believe in God, but I don't believe in the Bible. I mean where in the Bible does it say "There is no such thing as evolution"? In your thoughts, don't you think it's possible that God had his creation evolve over time?

How do you think we as people came to be? Like Blacks, whites, asians, arabs, etc. We all "evolved" over time to adapt with our surroundings. Blacks were originally from Africa, where their skin pigmentation was higher because of a lot of sun exposure. Whites were originally from Europe, and limited sun exposure. So we as humans evolved as well.





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Old 06-02-2008, 09:16 PM   #31
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check this out and tell me what you think I found this on Wikipedia...

Hovind's $250,000 offer

According to Hovind's website, he has offered $10,000 since 1990 to those who can "prove the theory of evolution."[45] He has since raised the prize to $250,000.[46]

I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution.* My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief.[45]

Critics view this offer to be spurious because of the conditions which Hovind imposes. At the time, Hovind commonly insisted that evolution and atheism were synonymous,[9] even though belief in a deity or deities is unrelated to evolution in any way and the two are clearly not mutually exclusive. The asterisk denotes the terms that he claims show significant gaps in the gradual progression predicted by the theory of evolution. In fact he challenged the world to prove a non-mainstream "theory of evolution" which he defined himself. The new theory, as outlined below, has very little in common with the theory accepted by the scientific world:

*NOTE: When I use the word evolution, I am not referring to the minor variations found in all of the various life forms (microevolution). I am referring to the general theory of evolution which believes these five major events took place without God:

1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
2. Planets and stars formed from space dust.
3. Matter created life by itself.
4. Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
5. Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals).

if you want more check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 10:38 PM   #32
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Mankind sinned and not everything is perfect anymore
So whales and dolphins have to "suffer" (using the term loosely here) because of man's sin? I realize that creationists love to use "the fall" as an explanation for all kinds of stuff, but it doesn't take too much critical thinking to realize that the argument doesn't make much sense.

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...and besides humans have things in them that they could live without, like kidney's and besides that bone may do something the whale knows about and we don't.
Okay, that's fine too, but you still haven't discounted that it's a vestigal leg. You've only offered an alternative hypothesis that, so far, has no support whatsoever.

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Scientists have discovered that Sperm Whales use Sonar because they can't see in front of themselves so they use Sonar to map and "see" where it's going. We still don't know everything about our own world.
Indeed that's very true. Not sure what bearing this has on the discussion re: evolution, but you are correct on this point nonetheless.

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And if you think I'm not worth this argument then look up Eric Hovand, he is worth it and he is where I learned all of why evolution is a joke...
I'm sure you meant Kent Hovind and if you're getting your information from him, then this conversation will probably be shorter than I thought.

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Because there is, a little off topic, but I've seen people get out of wheelchairs who with the doctor's help had no chance of walking again, you telling me they were lying and sat in a wheelchair for 20 years?
Can you prove that they weren't well all along and faking it (i.e. "part of the show")?

These people all learned from P.T. Barnum my friend.

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What about the Bible there is no way men who were 40 generations apart could write down the exact words of someone who lived 1000 years before, there had to be God behind everything,
There's an alternative that makes a lot of sense: The men wrote the book and there is no god.

The problem that you're having is that you're doing it all backwards. You're starting with a conclusion and then trying to shoe-horn the logic and the evidence to fit in from there.

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...read about the scientists who are trying to recreate evolution, they say that life was created by a lightning strike, try shocking a cell with electricity and you'll notice that the cell is going to fry,
You're confusing fact and drawing conclusions that have nothing to do with the evidence. But that doesn't really matter because the biggest problem that you have hear is that you're trying to misrepresent life origins in such a way as to discount evolution when they are two entirely different things.

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...also evolution says that everything living creature came from the rocks because after all they say that it rained on the rocky crust for millions of years and the water mixed with the minerals in the rocks and became a soup...the soup was shocked with lightning and life was created into a cell that happened to evolve and split in two forming a male and female
Nope. wrong again. This is life origins, not evolution.

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...notice the phrase "millions of years" do you know what that means? that means a fairytale is coming afterwards look at Star Wars "long, long time ago" (millions of years) see what I mean...
vs god doing it via magic in 6 days. Yes, clearly a long and laborious process with many stops and starts is the fairy tale here.

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check this out and tell me what you think I found this on Wikipedia...

Hovind's $250,000 offer
Total bunk and I'll help you understand why below.

But first, from your own source:
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In fact he challenged the world to prove a non-mainstream "theory of evolution" which he defined himself. The new theory, as outlined below, has very little in common with the theory accepted by the scientific world:

*NOTE: When I use the word evolution, I am not referring to the minor variations found in all of the various life forms (microevolution). I am referring to the general theory of evolution which believes these five major events took place without God:
Did you read that part before you posted? Bet not.

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1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
Cosmology, not biology (evolution)
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2. Planets and stars formed from space dust.
Cosmology, not biology (evolution)
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3. Matter created life by itself.
Chemistry, not biology (evolution).
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4. Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
Depending on how he defines "early life form" this would be biology and is already explained via the Theory of Evolution, however since he stipulates all 5 must be met, this isn't enough.
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5. Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals).
This one has already been knocked out of the ball park, but again because all 5 must be met, "Doctor" Hovind gets to hang on to his prize money.

So let's have a discussion about why his challenge hasn't been met.

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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
if you want more check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind
And if you want more, check this out:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind.html
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:46 PM   #33
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This guy sounds like Scrooge, besides the numbered part of Hovind's article were the definitions of evolution, there is only one kind of evolution that is observed today, micro-evolution, and, if evolution is true then how do we judge right from wrong?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:51 PM   #34
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besides the numbered part of Hovind's article were the definitions of evolution,
Nope, not even close. Hovind does not get to arbitrarily decide what evolution is.

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there is only one kind of evolution that is observed today, micro-evolution
"Micro-evolution" is a term created by creationists. There is evolution. Some of it can be observed directly and some of it cannot because of human life expectancies, etc. It's all the same process.

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and, if evolution is true then how do we judge right from wrong?
This isn't a question for evolution, it's a question for moral philosophy.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:53 PM   #35
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nope you're wrong this time... his definitions were from a dictionary, look it up, and yes my last question is relevant so answer it because you seem hesitant

what are you a professor or something?!


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:59 PM   #36
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nope you're wrong this time... his definitions were from a dictionary, look it up,
He found "Theory of Evolution" in a dictionary? I doubt it.

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and yes my last question is relevant so answer it because you seem hesitant
It is not relevant for reasons I have already provided.

The Theory of Evolution explains biological processes. Not cosmology, not chemistry, not philosophy. Biology.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:01 AM   #37
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I was talking about the definition of "evolution"

and you're still not answering my question makes me wonder if you can't, and if you can then answer it regardless of if it's relevant or not just answer it...

Stop baiting people into going into off-topic discussion. As Achilles said, if you want to discuss morals, go to the appropriate thread. Do not derail it from the original topic.

~9


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.

Last edited by Rogue Nine; 06-03-2008 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Warning.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:07 AM   #38
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I was talking about the definition of "evolution"
But he's trying to discount the Theory of Evolution right? If he's concerned about the dictionary's use of the word "evolution" (ambiguous), then he needs a requirement for geo-political economics too doesn't he (: a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance)?

Can't have it both ways.

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and you're still not answering my question makes me wonder if you can't, and if you can then answer it regardless of if it's relevant or not just answer it...
No sir, I am quite prepared to discuss moral philosophy in the thread of your choosing, however it has no place and no relevance here.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:11 AM   #39
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you won't answer it because you can't and you know it just humor me and watch these videos (all of them) it may take a few days, it is Kent Hovind and you need to watch these to understand where I'm coming from... He does talk against taxes and that's wrong because in the bible it says give to caesar what belongs to him and give to God what belongs to God, so eat the meat and spit out the bones, watch them though and it will all make sense...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio..._template.html


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:19 AM   #40
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you won't answer it because you can't and you know it
There are multiple ethics threads here the Senate Chambers. Feel free to resurrect any of them that you wish.

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just humor me and watch these videos (all of them) it may take a few days
I've watch Kent Hovind's videos. I know what he says and his arguments have already been discounted (repeatedly). He really doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

If you like see some of specific critiques, try this.
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