lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Universal Healthcare?
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 09-18-2008, 06:36 PM   #1
jonathan7
Exiled Jedi...
 
jonathan7's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 3,676
Contest winner - Modding LFN Staff Member Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Universal Healthcare?

Moved from Decision 08 - Please debate merits of Universal Healthcare in this thread...

Please discuss pros and cons of respective healthcare plans


As an outsider I will offer my commentary...

Yar-El - you are utterly wrong about universal health care, Britain (1950-2000), Sweden, Denmark, Norway and many other European Countries show that universal health care is affordable. But quite simply, even if it costs taxpayers money so what? I happen to think the right to medical treatment is a fundamental right and not a privilege. Indeed the right to medical treatment and as good a health as possible are far more important than freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does little good if one is too ill to get out of bed and exercise it. Why should someone who is ill but could be treated suffer because they don't have the money to do so? Why should external factors effect say the welfare of a child who has not asked to have leukaemia or parents who can't afford treatment? Basically ask yourself this - what is the life of another human being worth to you? Basically if you are not arguing for universal health care, I can only conclude that you have insurance that covers you, or a job that means it doesn't matter. As such does that extra tax of $10, $100, $500 for goods that you don't need for survival (TV, a second car, new gadgets etc) really matter as much as a human life?



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

Last edited by jonathan7; 09-20-2008 at 03:03 PM.
jonathan7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 06:47 PM   #2
Yar-El
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 783
Current Game: The Witcher
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
As an outsider I will offer my commentary...

Yar-El - you are utterly wrong about universal health care, Britain (1950-2000), Sweden, Denmark, Norway and many other European Countries show that universal health care is affordable. But quite simply, even if it costs taxpayers money so what? I happen to think the right to medical treatment is a fundamental right and not a privilege. Indeed the right to medical treatment and as good a health as possible are far more important than freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does little good if one is too ill to get out of bed and exercise it. Why should someone who is ill but could be treated suffer because they don't have the money to do so? Why should external factors effect say the welfare of a child who has not asked to have leukaemia or parents who can't afford treatment? Basically ask yourself this - what is the life of another human being worth to you? Basically if you are not arguing for universal health care, I can only conclude that you have insurance that covers you, or a job that means it doesn't matter. As such does that extra tax of $10, $100, $500 for goods that you don't need for survival (TV, a second car, new gadgets etc) really matter as much as a human life?
I can see merit in your response jonathan7. Do we also have to be responsible for someone who does not work, but they are capable of doing such a task? I agree with your statement; however, I would want a plan to weed out lazy people and illegals immigrants. Getting those illegals into the system is important, so they can be apart of the solution. Lazy people don't deserve free healthcare coverage. Sitting on one's behind at tax-payers expense is unethical.

I have to read up on the European system. I was under the impression that it doesn't work. I cannot comment on something in which I'm not versed in. I was under the impression that European nations don't include immigrants, and their prescence is causing extreme pressure on their system. We have a similar problem here as well.

Last edited by Yar-El; 09-18-2008 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Left the word 'free' out!
Yar-El is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:11 PM   #3
jonathan7
Exiled Jedi...
 
jonathan7's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 3,676
Contest winner - Modding LFN Staff Member Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I can see merit in your response jonathan7. Do we also have to be responsible for someone who does not work, but they are capable of doing such a task? I agree with your statement; however, I would want a plan to weed out lazy people and illegals immigrants. Getting those illegals into the system is important, so they can be apart of the solution. Lazy people don't deserve healthcare coverage. Sitting on one's behind at tax-payers expense is unethical.
If someone is lazy they deserve to die? That is a rather massive jump I think - I think someone's work ethic should be entirely separate from if they can receive health care or not. Just so you know, the US economy would collapse without illegal immigrants - Something I love about the UK - that it doesn't matter who you are; if you need hospital treatment you will get it. So much for men being born equal in the states if you don't have universal healthcare...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I have to read up on the European system. I was under the impression that it doesn't work. I cannot comment on something in which I'm not versed in. I was under the impression that European nations don't include immigrants, and their prescence is causing extreme pressure on their system.
Which moron did you hear that off? The UK health system was the best in the world for 40 years 1950-1990 - only serious miss-management by the Government has caused problems since.

The system is fine - immigrants have to pay taxes so - they contribute the same as anyone else; Sweden is in many respect the way a country should be governed - have a look into the Swedish system - considering your complete ignorance about the European System, why are you claiming universal health care doesn't work?



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
jonathan7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 06:52 PM   #4
Inyri
The Magical Malefactor
 
Inyri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,505
Current Game: Mass Effect 3
Veteran Modder Forum Veteran Helpful! Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Not everyone who is poor is a lazy slob.

And you're wrong; even lazy people have a right to life and health.

Inyri is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 06:55 PM   #5
Yar-El
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 783
Current Game: The Witcher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inyri View Post
Not everyone who is poor is a lazy slob. And you're wrong; even lazy people have a right to life and health.
Who said anything about the poor? I know I didn't.

No. Lazy people do not deserve free healthcare. They are capable of working for their share. I refuse to pay for someone who likes to watch tv all day, but they do not want to get a job.
Yar-El is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:04 PM   #6
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Who said anything about the poor? I know I didn't.

No. Lazy people do not deserve free healthcare. They are capable of working for their share. I refuse to pay for someone who likes to watch tv all day, but they do not want to get a job.
You're arguing under the illusion that Universal health care means people who are otherwise incapable of paying for insurance will enjoy the benefit of insurance. This is not true, it simply establishes a standard and picks up after the already established medicaid/medicare platform.

You clearly know nothing about what you are discussing and some education would serve you well. Call me biased if you want, it only further shows your ignorance of a large picture than that of your own home.

What you're basically saying is that I, a working class American who is attending school, is nothing more than a lazy slob. Thanks.

L2 America.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:12 PM   #7
Yar-El
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 783
Current Game: The Witcher
I'm going to give people more time to respond. I will be back to check up later. Thinking that no one will take advatage of this system is faulty. We have people doing that right at this moment.

Why are people talking about death? or, dying? Who made that statement?
Yar-El is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:19 PM   #8
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I'm going to give people more time to respond. I will be back to check up later. Thinking that no one will take advatage of this system is faulty. We have people doing that right at this moment.
So simply because human nature is going to happen is reason to prevent progress of humanity?
You make less and less sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Why are people talking about death? or, dying? Who made that statement?
Because if you're denied insurance coverage because you're genetically pre-disposed to cancer you will die because you can't afford care by yourself. Under the universal healthcare system you will not be denied coverage simply because of this. This is why people support it. It also standardizes all healthcare insurance plans and fixes up the shoddy medicare/caid plan that you obviously oppose the current structure of. Why not vote for this to happen so that window for abuse is minimized?

Again, your ignorance of this topic points itself out in neon colors.

Also, it appears several people (including myself) have responded. You have yet to show how Universal Healthcare is faulty. Even non-American's have shown how it can benefit our country. To play an emotional card, I'm going to say patriotism is low on your priorities after 1."me", 2."me" and 3."my car"


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:24 PM   #9
jonathan7
Exiled Jedi...
 
jonathan7's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 3,676
Contest winner - Modding LFN Staff Member Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I'm going to give people more time to respond. I will be back to check up later. Thinking that no one will take advatage of this system is faulty. We have people doing that right at this moment.
Which is better the innocent suffering, or the guilty taking advantage - you can only have it one way or the other. You have failed to address any of my points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Why are people talking about death? or, dying? Who made that statement?
Imagine a lazy person has cancer - that can be treated but they can't afford it - they deserve to die because they are lazy.

I will again point out one of my previous - "Something I love about the UK - that it doesn't matter who you are; if you need hospital treatment you will get it. So much for men being born equal in the states if you don't have universal free healthcare..."



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
jonathan7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 06:58 PM   #10
Inyri
The Magical Malefactor
 
Inyri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,505
Current Game: Mass Effect 3
Veteran Modder Forum Veteran Helpful! Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
So basically you then believe that the lazy deserve to die, since you don't think they deserve basic healthcare?

Inyri is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:01 PM   #11
Yar-El
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 783
Current Game: The Witcher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inyri View Post
So basically you then believe that the lazy deserve to die, since you don't think they deserve basic healthcare?
Not at all. Lazy people are a burden on the system. I have no problem with them getting a job and working for their share. I didn't say they didn't deserve healthcare -- I said they didn't deserve free healthcare at taxpayer's expense.
Yar-El is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-18-2008, 07:14 PM   #12
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Regulating universal health care is socialistic in nature, and it will cost American tax payers deeply in the long run.
This is rhetoric. Please tell us what "cost American tax payers deeply" means. Please define "long run" also. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
One of the consequences of living in New England is high taxes.
I'll take your word for it. Now please tell me how these two things are related? If you're going to argue for a causal relationship, then you're going to have to provide sources establishing one (i.e. how are taxes in New England dipersed amongst programs? How much more do New Englander's pay? How does this equate to taxable income vs non-taxable income for those that have to cover some portion of health care costs themselves. Et cetera).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
We are also in an unstable economic atmosphere that requires careful spending. Adding a newly regulated group to the mix will put more stress on the taxpayer.
Okay. How much stress?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
People such as myself also don't want to pay for anyone else's healthcare.
You already do. Medicare. Medicaid. Government healthcare for politicians, military personell (and their dependents), "enemy combatants" in Gitmo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Taxpayers are now responsible for the reckless buisness practices of mortage lenders and banks.
Relevance? This is completely unrelated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Eventually the system will crush both the wealthy and middle class.
How? Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I also don't like the idea of being told, "You now have to pay for someone else's medical bills."
Addressed above. How do you feel about being told that you also have to pay for someone else's access to emergency services, public libaries, postal services, etc? I think this is the third or forth time this argument has been presented to you and you've yet to address it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Being responsible for a person's medical bills while they are job capable is foolish.
Please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I can understand a loan for those people, but the tax payers need to be paid back.
You appear to be on a tangent now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Afordable health insurance is a great idea, but it must come from making more options available.
Okay. Options like what? What options do you propose that aren't available now? Please be specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
We must not force people or buisnesses into paying for other people's expenses.
Good thing Obama's plan has an opt-out for people that are pleased with their current insurance. Next objection please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
What will eventually happen is that employers will pass the cost of healthcare onto the workers.
Eventually? Try "already". This is a non-issue because it already happens. Obama's plan is to reduce the cost to the employee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Wages will also be cut to accomidate the loss.
Source please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Our country's price of life is allready at extreme standards. People who should be making $16 to $18 dollars an hour are being paid $11 to $12 an hour.
Source please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
We allready have a serious problem with getting employers to pay for skilled labor. (Immigration maybe an issue here as well.)
Unrelated.

Also: Slippery Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Between the ages of 22 and 23, young adults are finished with college. Why should parents cover the cost for young adults? They should have a job of their own by 23.
It's called "Graduate School".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
(Time to look at McCain's healthcare plans. I will be back with an edit or post.)
Sounds good. I always like it when people research their positions after they've taken them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I agree with this 100%. More control in the family's hands is important. Allowing families to control where they want their money to be spent is important. Telling people where to spend the money is dictatorship.
Does this extend to "regular taxes" as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Most of the ideologies McCain makes available are similar to Obama's. They agree almost most of the time. Repeating what I said about Obama's plan but for McCain would be horrible.
Don't forget the other industrialized nations that J7 reference above. Would hate to think that maybe they all know something we don't too.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-20-2008, 02:49 AM   #13
Bimmerman
Junior Member
 
Bimmerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bouncing off the Rev Limiter
Posts: 437
I fully support a universal health care system-- it should not be true in this day and age that anyone will die or be forced into financial ruin all because they could not afford health insurance. Judging by your posts, Yar-El, it is extremely obvious you don't know what you're debating.

How is it fair that to keep a "lazy person" from gaming the system, I will be financially ruined or allowed to die if I need to go to the hospital for anything serious? I do not fit into the "lazy couch potato" category, but as a broke college student, I am one medical issue away from ruin. I cannot afford healthcare, and I rely on my family insurance to get me through college and grad school.(yes, I will be in school and broke until I'm well into my late 20s. Surprise!)

How is it fair that to keep from allowing a small percentage of people who will undoubtedly scam the system, hard working, jesus-loving, etc etc, Americans will die or be ruined? Health insurance is stupid expensive, but is extremely critical to have. If you can't afford it, as in if you have the misfortune of needing to eat, you die. Great system.

If you're poor, you die, if you're rich, you live! Yay! Your wealth level must be directly proportional to how hard of a worker you are, and not your education, socio-economic status, intelligence, etc. Hooray, the poor deserve to die because we can't let a few scam the system even though millions will benefit! I'd get banned for speaking my mind on your dogmatic "lazy vs everyone else" or "rich vs poor" or "socialist vs americuh!!!" logic, so I'll let my internet sarcasm do what it can.

I liken the likely tax increase to my view on gas taxes- as long as I benefit, I fully support it. I love driving and am addicted to gasoline, and I will gladly pay 4, 5, 10, 20 dollars per gallon in order to drive my not so efficient race car, especially if the gas taxes go to something useful like funding public transportation. I don't drive everywhere, and I live in a city with plenty of public transportation. I benefit by paying a negligible amount more, or by offsetting the cost by other methods(don't mention tax credits or hybrids, that's stupid talk).

Similarly, I will gladly pay more money in taxes to have a universal health care system where I don't have to worry that my next hospital visit will ruin my future or be my end. I won't have to be so embarrassed at the politicking and sleazy shenanigans that go on in the health care industry. Most important, our country will have a health system to be proud of instead of one at the lower end of first world nations.

As has been posted before, Canada, the UK, Germany, Sweden, and just about all modern countries have universal health care. Unlike our government, theirs actually care about their citizen's plight.

I'm nowhere near an expert on the health care industry here or abroad, but I do know enough to realize the benefits far outweigh the downsides. Do some actual research besides seeing what one candidate says versus the other- no politician has been seen in the wild anywhere near an elusive fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
This is too rich to pass up on Sex Ed for Kindergarteners 'Right Thing to Do,' Says Obama. That is just weird. That is just insane. What is wrong with him? People do know that the human brain is not fully developed until the late teens. Right? I think some people around here talked about this yesterday. He is unethical or insane.
Your response is too good to pass up also- have you read the actual bill he proposed? Or at least the relevant passages?

If you had, you would realize that for the kindergartners that everyone's outraged for, the bill stipulates informing them what inappropriate touching is. How is this not a good thing? Is it better to not tell them when some behavior is considered sexual harassment? By them not knowing this who is being protected? Pedophiles. Bravo.

The bill did not propose telling kindergartners how babies are made or how to put on a condom or how aids is bad(m'kay?), but rather how to recognize what is harassment so that they could report it. Unless the parents are complete fools, prudes, and idiots, they have already done so. However, by requiring it to be taught in schools, everyone can feel better knowing that all kids know what constitutes harassment.

Merged double post - please use the edit post function in future - J7


A racing addiction makes a crack addiction look like a vague desire for something salty. -Randy Hickman

Fear disturbs your concentration. - Sabine Schmitz

Last edited by jonathan7; 09-20-2008 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Merged double post...
Bimmerman is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-20-2008, 08:24 AM   #14
Pavlos
Scruffy Englishman
 
Pavlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The real world/ivory towers
Posts: 1,974
Current Game: Viking Warrior Poets
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
Yar-El - you are utterly wrong about universal health care, Britain (1950-2000), Sweden, Denmark, Norway and many other European Countries show that universal health care is affordable.
Hear, hear! I say we all have a refreshing Beveridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
Which moron did you hear that off? The UK health system was the best in the world for 40 years 1950-1990 - only serious miss-management by the Government has caused problems since.
It's one of the issues associated with socialised medicine that a democratically elected government is accountable for something as massive and important as the NHS.

If something doesn't work then people kick up a fuss. The fuss leads to government policy and because government has to be seen to be acting immediately on said fuss, the policy is generally badly thought out and a short-term solution. If they don't act then they lose face, are branded as 'immigrant-favouring lefties' by the Mail and 'right wing, back-door privatising backstabbers' by the Independent, and manage to spectacularly lose the next election, stopping off along the way to nationalise Northern Rock.

Successive governments fiddling with things (policies to remove matrons, then bring them back, and then implement 'super matrons' spring to mind...) leads to a right royal mess that can only be sorted out by an independent rethink and reorganisation of the NHS with long-term returns and goals set in mind: a modern-day Beveridge Report, if you will.

Unfortunately, democracy doesn't do well with long-term goals, it's a very knee-jerking, reactionary thing. Rather like middle England...

Anyway. Personally, if I were American, I'd vote for Barack Obama. Not out of any political idealism but simply because I'd like to see his face when he comes on a state visit to the UK and realises that one of his election slogans (yes we can) is the catch phrase of a BBC children's programme.

"We are the people we have been waiting for": does he get annoyed at himself for making him wait, I wonder?


StarWarsKnights.com -- News and features will be returning shortly...

I 'gin to be a-weary of the sun,
And wish the estate o' the world were now undone.
Pavlos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-20-2008, 11:32 AM   #15
Yar-El
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 783
Current Game: The Witcher
I have to do more research on this subject. I have been reading both pros and cons to establishing Universal/Nationalised Healthcare. I admit in theory it sounds like a good idea, but I have also read up on the nightmares. I need more intel. Until I learn otherwise, I'm still against the idea. I will be back.

@ Palvos Yes we can, yes we can! Do they use it to teach kids to spell, read, and go potty?

---Edit added---

I did some really good research, and I will be displaying it here soon. I have found reliable sources from doctors, educators, and other professionals. All this talk about how Italy, Britain, Germany, Japan, and France having a great nationalized healthcare system is laughable. What started out as a Obama plan in other countries has turned into a crisis. Everything from the loss of liberties to limited funding caused by government cutbacks due to deficits. France is suffering from a massive deficit caused by their nationalized healthcare, and it has produced some very horrible results. Regulated forces have caused limitations in funding for each patient, private companies moving to other more free countries, and a reduction in medical sciences. European countries have more issues caused by nationalized healthcare than the United States system. After I'm done reading what I have found, I will post it here for your examination. Nationalized Healcare is a socialistic ideology, which does have several major - major drawbacks. People are telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. People are saying I lack the knowledge. You don't know me. I'm going to show you proof.

Governers in Massachusetts are scrambling for more funding. They missjudged the expense for state-wide healthcare, and they needed a bail out by the federal government. They also missjudged the number of people who needed healthcare. I will be back with more.

--- Added Edit ---

I needed someone who was a professional, unbiased, and has also talked to the government. As I said in a previous section, the National Healcare ideology has some serious drawbacks. I found someone who is in both support and against the idea. Who I ended up finding is a researcher at the CATO Institute named Michael Tanner. You be the judge.

A List of His Work and Research

PDF -- His findings on the effects of National Healthcare.

I also wanted to get an outsider. Professionals have more weight due to their experience, research, and education. I thought having an outsider's perspective would also spark some questions. Mark Valenti also has extensive research that Nationalized Healthcare is a bad idea. We must learn from history and not repeate it. Keep in mind that his information may be biased.

Outsider's Research -- Mark D. Valenti

Why do I have resources? Everyone who has challanged me doesn't. You blamed me for not knowing anything, but you didn't supply your own resources. I have more for a later time. I'm waiting for the right questions.

What you do with this information is of your own. We live in a free world.

Last edited by Yar-El; 09-20-2008 at 01:13 PM.
Yar-El is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-20-2008, 02:22 PM   #16
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I have to do more research on this subject. I have been reading both pros and cons to establishing Universal/Nationalised Healthcare. I admit in theory it sounds like a good idea, but I have also read up on the nightmares. I need more intel. Until I learn otherwise, I'm still against the idea. I will be back.
Please explain to me the wisdom of researching your position after you've taken it (aka "I don't like X and now I'm going to go find out what my reasons are"). Some people might not mind this kind of "thinking", however others will and those people will find it very difficult to take you seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
People are telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. People are saying I lack the knowledge. You don't know me. I'm going to show you proof.
If you have to go find something in order to show us proof, that means you don't have "the knowledge".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I needed someone who was a professional, unbiased, and has also talked to the government.
Michael Tanner is not unbiased (hint: no one associated with a policy-making Washington think tank is unbiased. I hope that helps). If you're still looking for unbiased opinions, you're going to have to start again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I also wanted to get an outsider. Professionals have more weight due to their experience, research, and education. I thought having an outsider's perspective would also spark some questions. Mark Valenti also has extensive research that Nationalized Healthcare is a bad idea. We must learn from history and not repeate it. Keep in mind that his information may be biased.
Mark Valenti is not your resource. The few dozen websites he's linked to are your source. Did you read any of them? Are you offering them up because they reflect your views (again, fallacies and all)? Or did you just find the website, decide that the headlines sounded provocative, and fall in love?

Remember my earlier observations about cherry-picking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Why do I have resources? Everyone who has challanged me doesn't.
Because none of us have made bold claims that require supporting sources (???).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
What you do with this information is of your own. We live in a free world.
Ok, I will. Thanks!
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-20-2008, 02:24 PM   #17
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,631
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar El
I did some really good research, and I will be displaying it here soon. I have found reliable sources from doctors, educators, and other professionals. All this talk about how Italy, Britain, Germany, Japan, and France having a great nationalized healthcare system is laughable.
Rubbish. If the National Health Service in Britain was as bad as people make it sound, I'd be dead.

Last year, i'd found a lump, and I went straight to my local hospital. five days, I was having an operation to remove it. It turned out to be potentially fatal.

Had I been in America, I wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment i'm now recieving, or the operation, or medication.

Maybe I was just lucky, but Nationalised Healthcare saved my life, and I don't have to worry about paying extensive medical bills or worry about paying for my next medical problem.

(I don't know if this has much to do with the topic, but I thought i'd try to show an advantage of Nationalised Health care)






Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-20-2008, 06:09 PM   #18
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I have to read up on the European system. I was under the impression that it doesn't work.
Oh, that's ok, you're just wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El
I cannot comment on something in which I'm not versed in.
[/Thread] then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Who said anything about the poor? I know I didn't.

No. Lazy people do not deserve free healthcare. They are capable of working for their share.
So you'd rather people die because they didn't "do their share"? What about their children? Should the children of the lazy also suffer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
Which moron did you hear that off? The UK health system was the best in the world for 40 years 1950-1990 - only serious miss-management by the Government has caused problems since.
Just quoting him so you'll actually read it this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J7
Sweden is in many respect the way a country should be governed - have a look into the Swedish system - considering your complete ignorance about the European System, why are you claiming universal health care doesn't work?
And again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Thinking that no one will take advatage of this system is faulty.
So all of the poor people and those who you'd agree deserve these benefits should suffer because of the chance that someone will take advantage of the system? How odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El
Why are people talking about death? or, dying? Who made that statement?
That's what happen when you can't afford treatment for life-threatening illnesses. It's unfortunate that you couldn't put that together


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
That is a far stretch. Your playing with me now.
No, he's really not.

I could say the same to you, since you seem to be blowing smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
I did some really good research, and I will be displaying it here soon. I have found reliable sources from doctors, educators, and other professionals. All this talk about how Italy, Britain, Germany, Japan, and France having a great nationalized healthcare system is laughable.
It really isn't. I'm going to try to go get a third party opinion for you.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-21-2008, 09:28 PM   #19
SD Nihil
Junior Member
 
SD Nihil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: United States of America
Posts: 434
Current Game: K1/2, EaW/FoC, & TFU
I don't want universal health care. If we have it then that means who else will pay for it. That's right the tax payers (us) will. Taxes are already high. Also, with ourcurrent economy when you have the government having to bail out companies like AIG this in my opinion would only make our troubles worse.

Canada has universal health care. Many Canadians come down to the United States because of surgeries where they cannot wait. In Canada you have to wait because with Universal Health Care you are subject to when the insurance company says you can get the surgery. In America the doctor can say you need the surgery right now if he thinks it's that dire.

In my opinion I believe the doctor should be the one in charge of when you get the care you need. Not some insurance company.

Another bad thing about it is your incentive to improve your level of care is dampened because of the level the government sets the level of care quotient. Meaning the government says you are to provide this level of care. If you work above it you don't get advancement, or get paid more. You just don't get awarded.



Last edited by SD Nihil; 09-21-2008 at 09:41 PM.
SD Nihil is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-21-2008, 10:24 PM   #20
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
In my opinion I believe the doctor should be the one in charge of when you get the care you need. Not some insurance company.
I agree, but at the same time people shouldn't have to live with debilitating conditions because they couldn't afford it.

And if doctors became doctors for the money, they shouldn't have been doctors, doctors should be people who want to help others. This is what pisses me off about doctors who run off the Kenya and help the poor and sick there.

Those are the kind of people I want providing care here, people who are interested in keeping people healthy, not interested in making a quick buck off somebody's suffering.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 09:41 AM   #21
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
I have met some of my colleagues who obviously stayed in the medical field because they enjoyed the good income. I've even seen a couple of complete crooks but had no definitive proof to turn them in--crooks exist in any field, and medicine is no exception. However, we don't usually get into the field for that reason. If we wanted just to make top money, we could put that same energy and passion into a business degree and make 10 times what a doctor typically makes. I see more people in the field for the prestige and respect than for money, if you have to peg what kinds of things attract us to that level of degree other than the purely altruistic 'helping people'. Most of us are in the field because we have an aptitude and even a gift for it, we enjoy helping others with their medical problems, and many times because some medical professional was influential in our lives in some way. For instance, someone who goes into neurology may do so because a neurologist saved his or her life or a family member's life, or eased a family member or friend's suffering in some substantially meaningful way.

The people who 'run off to Kenya' (or other places with inadequate healthcare) do so because they want to improve health and ease suffering in places that often times don't have adequate facilities, much less well-trained personnel. They see a desperate need far greater than in developed countries, and decide to fill that need.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 10:54 AM   #22
Bee Hoon
ngom ngom ngom
 
Bee Hoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,268
Forum Veteran Veteran Fan Fic Author LFN Staff Member Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The people who 'run off to Kenya' (or other places with inadequate healthcare) do so because they want to improve health and ease suffering in places that often times don't have adequate facilities, much less well-trained personnel. They see a desperate need far greater than in developed countries, and decide to fill that need.
Quoted for emphasis. The 'poor and sick in Kenya' are equally deserving, if not more so due to their dire need.

Yar-El: I am Malaysian, and we have your hated universal healthcare in place. Do I approve? Absolutely. I do not see what being lazy has anything to do with it. Has it ever occurred to you that some people may not be contributing taxes simply because they are out of the tax bracket? There are many poor families in Malaysia, especially in the rural areas and among the orang asli (the natives, or aborigines). Entire families often survive on less than RM1000 a month (which is hardly more than 300USD).

Is it wrong that these people should receive healthcare at the expense of those who can afford it? They are *not* lazy--many of them simply do not have the opportunities and privileges that you enjoy. The orang asli especially are still subsistence farmers. There is a Malay saying about this way of life: "kais pagi makan pagi, kais petang makan petang". It basically refers to a hand-to-mouth existence. We need not mention cancer in this context; they are often malnourished (either from an inadequate diet or parasitic infections or other causes), and thus even an attack of the 'flu can be fatal.

The system is not without its flaws (the crowded government hospitals; perennial shortages of staff especially specialists, many of whom join privately-owned hospitals), but perhaps consider the plight of the poor before you brand them as "lazy" and deny them this basic human right.

My parents like to think that their tax money goes towards healthcare, rather than ending up in the pocket of some corrupt politician.



The sun goes down and the sky reddens, pain grows sharp.
light dwindles. Then is evening
when jasmine flowers open, the deluded say.
But evening is the great brightening dawn
when crested cocks crow all through the tall city
and evening is the whole day
for those without their lovers

-Kuruntokai 234, translated by A.K. Ramanujan

[Fic] Shreds of a Dying Belief
Bee Hoon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 05:02 PM   #23
SD Nihil
Junior Member
 
SD Nihil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: United States of America
Posts: 434
Current Game: K1/2, EaW/FoC, & TFU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
I agree, but at the same time people shouldn't have to live with debilitating conditions because they couldn't afford it.
Our system of capitalism isn't perfect. Not by a long shot. But in my opinion it's better than universal health care where you have to pay a lot more taxes wise to have universal care for everyone. Yes everyone may be getting some kind of care, but not really what they need. Where as with capitalism type care you have choice.

You research the best physician. You learn what kind of doctor they are. Are they for money or do they really care for the patient. I believe people go into medicine because they have a genuine want to care for others. They always have fear when performing say surgery. That's a life you have in their hands. And if one working on a patient tells you they are not scared for the patient or feel worry in every move they take then they are lying. You want to do everything right. These are good doctors.

Yes there are bad ones. They are more easily identified by their success rate. Let me also add there are some that will not perform a risky surgery on a patient for if the patient dies their stats go down. This is why you need to research your doctor and find out who he or she is person wise. When you talk to them do they seem sincere. Are they negative. Are they overly positive. Are they just blunt. Are they with their attitude showing signs that they are just a business man or do you see compassion in their tone and words.

You can never be sure of everyone. But you learn more about the physician and talk to them. Get to know them as a person.

Other countries like you've mentioned guys don't provide care well. We've given money to countries like Kenya and Africa. Their is corruption over there. Money doesn't get where it needs to. So it's more the government of those countries' fault and less ours. We gave. Those countries just aren't doing right for their people.

We live good lives in the US better than many third world countries. We are a rich nation. Money has gotten to the right places. We are humane. Some countries are not.

So work to afford the doctor you need. Universal health care doesn't give you that option. Everyone gets the same. That's not good enough for someone waiting for a hearth transplant. That's why they come here because they know they'll get the heart quicker rather than waiting for the insurance company to make a move.

Guys Universal Health care may sound good on paper, but it's not when actually implemented. Compare the mortality rate of a capitalism health care system and an universal health care system. And look at who has had less deaths under which system.

I can speak on this type of medical topic well in that my father is a retired Nurse Anesthetist. These are the guys that put you to sleep. The I V's, gas mask, that kind of thing. You need several in the room to deal with how much of this and that medicine they need while under surgery. Theirs another anesthetist watching the EKG and such.

Not to be confused with Anesthesiologist. That is a type of doctor that oversees the work of the nurse anesthetists under him. He's the one who says give this or that to the nurse anesthetists. The Anesthesiologist will write on the paper work saying he administered this medication or that even though it was his underlings who did.

My father retired due to his hearing getting bad. If not for his hearing loss he says he'd continue to work. But when you can't hear as well in the surgery room that can put the patient in more danger. 40yrs he worked.

So this just shows guys like my Dad do care for the patient and cared enough to know when it was time to quit.


SD Nihil is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 05:23 PM   #24
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,631
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
So work to afford the doctor you need. Universal health care doesn't give you that option.
No, but it gives everyone an option, one that many wouldn't have otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Everyone gets the same.
Id rather everyone get the same as opposed to only the rich being able to afford healthcare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
That's not good enough for someone waiting for a hearth transplant. That's why they come here because they know they'll get the heart quicker rather than waiting for the insurance company to make a move.
So the rich can lead, happy, healthy lives while the poor die or spend a lifetime on dialysis because they can't afford to pay a good doctor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
We are humane.
That's at odds with almost everything else you've said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Guys Universal Health care may sound good on paper, but it's not when actually implemented.
As i've said, when I needed preventative surgery, I got it.

My grandfather needed heart surgery, he got it.

My uncle needed a new hip, He got it.

See where i'm going? All of that was with this universal healthcare you dislike so much.






Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 11:28 PM   #25
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Our system of capitalism isn't perfect. Not by a long shot. But in my opinion it's better than universal health care where you have to pay a lot more taxes wise to have universal care for everyone. Yes everyone may be getting some kind of care, but not really what they need. Where as with capitalism type care you have choice.
It's not like with universal care we're all going to start getting treated for broken legs and impotency when we clearly don't have those problems.

Quote:
You research the best physician.
This is not always an option. There are not a half a dozen physicians within emergency distance of the average person. Sometimes there isn't even 1.

Quote:
You learn what kind of doctor they are. Are they for money or do they really care for the patient.
When all you can afford is $1000 dollars or less, you'll go to the doctor who charges the least, not the one who provides the best care.

Quote:
Yes there are bad ones. They are more easily identified by their success rate. Let me also add there are some that will not perform a risky surgery on a patient for if the patient dies their stats go down.
Which means good and bad doctors can't be identified by their success rate as a doctor who avoids risky things will have a higher rate than one who does not but may be a better doctor.

Quote:
This is why you need to research your doctor and find out who he or she is person wise. When you talk to them do they seem sincere. Are they negative. Are they overly positive. Are they just blunt. Are they with their attitude showing signs that they are just a business man or do you see compassion in their tone and words.
referring back to the point where I stated that choosing your doctor is not always an option, especially for much of poor and rural America.

Quote:
So work to afford the doctor you need. Universal health care doesn't give you that option. Everyone gets the same. That's not good enough for someone waiting for a hearth transplant. That's why they come here because they know they'll get the heart quicker rather than waiting for the insurance company to make a move.
You don't get it do you? If I break my leg because I don't have a college education and I have to work 12 hours a day 6 days a week just to make ends meat, I can't "keep working" after that. I need my leg fixed NOW. There is no work, no money until that happens.

Look I pay for my own health coverage, and I STILL have to wait for an insurance company to tell me I can get my whatever.

Quote:
Guys Universal Health care may sound good on paper, but it's not when actually implemented. Compare the mortality rate of a capitalism health care system and an universal health care system. And look at who has had less deaths under which system.
The answer would be: capitalist, also, as other say, proof?

And don't bring poor defunct nations into the picture here, keep the comparisons kosher by sticking to other western nations.

Quote:
I can speak on this type of medical topic well in that my father is a retired Nurse Anesthetist.
My Aunt is a doctor, my mother is a therapist, my uncle works for a pharmaceutical corporation researching different kinds of drugs. Appeal to authority please.

Quote:
So this just shows guys like my Dad do care for the patient and cared enough to know when it was time to quit.
that's nice but I don't really see the point of the story. Some medical practitioners care? yeah I know. Some don't. tis life.

You do realize that national healthcare only means there is a government run system that provides care for everyone, and then anyone who wants to start a private medical practice can do so right? Universal healthcare does not strip the right to free enterprise.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 05:39 PM   #26
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Just so you know, you're usually referred to a doctor because of the type of treatment you need. If they happen to be located in America, there ya go.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 07:10 PM   #27
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Also, with ourcurrent economy when you have the government having to bail out companies like AIG this in my opinion would only make our troubles worse.
Nothing to do with the topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
In my opinion I believe the doctor should be the one in charge of when you get the care you need. Not some insurance company.
Wow. You do realize that this is what's happening in AMERICA, right? If the insurance company tells you you can't get the care, then you don't get the care. In AMERICA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Yes everyone may be getting some kind of care, but not really what they need.
This is just plain bull****.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
You can never be sure of everyone. But you learn more about the physician and talk to them. Get to know them as a person.
Oh, you need a life saving surgery? Hold on, let me shop around for a month to find you one with a good bedside manor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Other countries like you've mentioned guys don't provide care well. We've given money to countries like Kenya and Africa.
Countries like Africa? Wow.

Pay attention, friend. The reason that Kenya doesn't provide care well is because it doesn't have a Universal Health Care System. And it's poor.

Throughout all of this, you haven't said anything that actually pertains to the topic. Your words are meandering about and have no factual basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
We live good lives in the US better than many third world countries. We are a rich nation. Money has gotten to the right places. We are humane. Some countries are not.
NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!

Dag nab it, saying that we live lives better than some doesn't mean that we shouldn't work for progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
So work to afford the doctor you need.
Some people don't have that option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
That's not good enough for someone waiting for a hearth transplant.
Transplants are determined by how many viable hearts are gotten. If no donors die that month, then it's impossible to get you a heart. Plus, America has huge wait times for transplants, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Guys Universal Health care may sound good on paper, but it's not when actually implemented.
Source?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Compare the mortality rate of a capitalism health care system and an universal health care system. And look at who has had less deaths under which system.
Double-source? Because I know that this one is ****.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
I can speak on this type of medical topic well in that my father is a retired Nurse Anesthetist.
I can speak about how to fly because my great-uncle was a pilot. Oh wait, that's bull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
These are the guys that put you to sleep. The I V's, gas mask, that kind of thing. You need several in the room to deal with how much of this and that medicine they need while under surgery. Theirs another anesthetist watching the EKG and such.

Not to be confused with Anesthesiologist. That is a type of doctor that oversees the work of the nurse anesthetists under him. He's the one who says give this or that to the nurse anesthetists. The Anesthesiologist will write on the paper work saying he administered this medication or that even though it was his underlings who did.

My father retired due to his hearing getting bad. If not for his hearing loss he says he'd continue to work. But when you can't hear as well in the surgery room that can put the patient in more danger. 40yrs he worked.
Nothing to do with anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
So this just shows guys like my Dad do care for the patient and cared enough to know when it was time to quit.
All that tells me is that your Dad retired because he couldn't hear as well. It says nothing on his motives, and is really irrelevant as to why universal health care is a "bad system". The doctors in Canada/the UK/Sweden (and etc) still care about their patients.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 09-22-2008 at 09:05 PM. Reason: language; getting a little heated there
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 08:59 PM   #28
SD Nihil
Junior Member
 
SD Nihil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: United States of America
Posts: 434
Current Game: K1/2, EaW/FoC, & TFU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
No, but it gives everyone an option, one that many wouldn't have otherwise.
Again with capitalism you have choice of level of care. Universal you all get the same level of care. Nothing better than the current level. With your condition that might not be adequate.

Yes you have to work for it. Why should I have to pay more taxes for someone else who didn't put forth the effort to work hard. You didn't choose to work hard sorry I'm not going to award your laziness. That may sound cold, but I don't believe in awarding those that choose to work the minimum and expect to get more for little.

If you work hard you should get what you deserve. If you work little you should get little. I think that's fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
So the rich can lead, happy, healthy lives while the poor die or spend a lifetime on dialysis because they can't afford to pay a good doctor?
That's right it's their fault they are poor. They wouldn't be if they applied themselves. So what it's hard. Heck my Dad started out living in someone's garage. So you can do it if you work at it. So yes those that worked hard get to have more and those that are lazy get little. To some I may seem like a monster. But this is how some conservatives believe. And I'm not ashamed or feel guilty in the least. When I go to sleep I sleep like a log. I just don't care that the poor man is dying in a ditch. I may feel pity or sympathy for his pain, but at the same time I know he could have helped himself not to have had that pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
That's at odds with almost everything else you've said.
We are. We are the country that has given more aid and money to other countries that any other country has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
My grandfather needed heart surgery, he got it.

My uncle needed a new hip, He got it.

See where I'm going? All of that was with this universal healthcare you dislike so much.
I'm glad you got the care you needed. What I was talking about were those patients who needed emergency surgeries. Ones that couldn't wait like yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Nothing to do with the topic.
It is on topic. It's me reinforcing my point of why Universal is bad is because with our current economy and high taxes we can't afford more taxes to pay for such a universal health care system. That's how it ties in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Wow. You do realize that this is what's happening in AMERICA, right? If the insurance company tells you you can't get the care, then you don't get the care. In AMERICA.
That's right insurance companies also in America hold care back from you. You'd also have that same problem with Universal Health Care with a side of government involvement and higher taxes to pay for the system of Universal Health Care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
This is just plain bull****.
Oh. Please elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Oh, you need a life saving surgery? Hold on, let me shop around for a month to find you one with a good bedside manor.
Our technology is very good compared to some other countries. Some research doesn't take very long. In the hospital you might get recommended to a good surgeon.

You don't get that in an Universal Health Care System.

Quote:
EnderWiggin]Pay attention, friend. The reason that Kenya doesn't provide care well is because it doesn't have a Universal Health Care System. And it's poor.

Throughout all of this, you haven't said anything that actually pertains to the topic. Your words are meandering about and have no factual basis.
It's because they're corrupt. When we're giving them the money and they don't choose to fix problems and get the money where it's needed in my opinion that's corruption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!

~snipped~ saying that we live lives better than some doesn't mean that we shouldn't work for progress.
It does have to do with the topic. It means we have more because we strived to work hard and make progress. In an Universal Health Care System your incentive to work harder, make new health care improvements, and do more than the minimum is hampered because you will not make more, get advancement, or get rewarded for doing more than the set by the government standard of care quotient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Some people don't have that option.
We all in America have choice. Choice to be a bum or a choice to live wealthy. If your stuck in a slum. If your city doesn't have jobs move. Work out of your car if you have to.

If my father started out living in someone's garage to now have over a couple million in investments that right there shows in America you can make it if you try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
All that tells me is that your Dad retired because he couldn't hear as well. It says nothing on his motives, and is really irrelevant as to why universal health care is a "bad system". The doctors in Canada/the UK/Sweden (and etc) still care about their patients.
It shows his motives real well. If he didn't care about the patients and only about profit he would have continued to work despite his hearing loss. He may have bad hearing, but heck with the fact it might cause a problem in the surgery room money would've mattered more.

But my Dad doesn't think that way. He said he quit because his hearing was interfering with the work. He couldn't hear what medication he was being told to give. Each medicine matters. If you give the wrong one you can harm or kill the patient. He said he didn't want to cause harm to a patient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Transplants are determined by how many viable hearts are gotten. If no donors die that month, then it's impossible to get you a heart. Plus, America has huge-ass wait times for transplants, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
You'd wait longer in UHC System.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Source?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Double-source? Because I know that this one is ****.
Look it up yourself if you want. Google capitalism health care system. Google Universal Health Care System. This isn't one of those things you need to give a source for. It's not like something just heard on the news that's new. The definitions, explanations, and the evidence of it's use and statistics are on the internet. You should look it up yourself. They're facts out there waiting for you to find them.

Again this is just simple. It's like someone saying give me a source when I explain what democracy is and they don't believe that's what it is. Well look it up yourself. It's not hard to find.

Like with capitalism Health Care you do your own work, your own research, and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. This is not Universal Health Care System where another person is paying for your level of care. Meaning I'm not going to do your research for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I can speak about how to fly because my great-uncle was a pilot. Oh wait, that's bull.
This isn't a topic about flying is it. It's a medical topic. If it was about flying you could speak with a little more experience. I can speak about this better because I have yes what my father did, learned from stuff he'd talk about. Even this. And I can ask him stuff.

It almost sounds like you were calling what my father did bull. You said your great uncle flew or something and then said no wait that's bull. Anyway the quote is right there. Trust me my father did what he did for 40 years. That's not bull. It's fact.



Last edited by Jae Onasi; 09-22-2008 at 09:40 PM. Reason: edited offensive language inside a quote
SD Nihil is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 09:26 PM   #29
jrrtoken
Senior Member
 
jrrtoken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Again with capitalism you have choice of level of care. Universal you all get the same level of care. Nothing better than the current level. With your condition that might not be adequate.
Yes, but you get it without having to get your insurance company to sign forms, and other nasty bureaucratic stuff that allows you to get treatment. Therfore, the insurance company is really the one who decides on whether you live or die in a critical operation; When I went to the ER when I got my lip badly cut up in a skiing accident, the first thing they asked me at the sign in desk was: "Proof of insurance?" In a nation with Universal Health Care, that wouldn't happen, as the nation will pay for it right there and then, and the money will only come out of your taxes. Or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
That's right it's their fault they are poor. They wouldn't be if they applied themselves. So what it's hard. Heck my Dad started out living in someone's garage. So you can do it if you work at it. So yes those that worked hard get to have more and those that are lazy get little. To some I may seem like a monster. But this is how some conservatives believe. And I'm not ashamed or feel guilty in the least. When I go to sleep I sleep like a log. I just don't care that the poor man is dying in a ditch. I may feel pity or sympathy for his pain, but at the same time I know he could have helped himself not to have had that pain.
So you're saying that the reason that people are poor is that they're always lazy? I know from personal experience that this is a lie. If people are living in poverty, a number of factors put them there, they could have been born into it, but it's definitely NOT laziness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
We are. We are the country that has given more aid and money to other countries that any other country has.
I can't tell you how so wrong you are. Do some research on America and you'll find out we're really a horrible nation, and that we've done the exact opposite of what you believe throughout history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Other unimportant ramblings that have already been stated...
The point is clear: Would you rather have a COMPANY decide if you have enough money to get healthcare or would you rather have the government give it to you automatically whenever you needed it?
jrrtoken is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 09:45 PM   #30
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,046
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
I really love how people assume we will pay more in taxes for Universal Health Care than we are paying now for private insurance. Everybody does understand that we are paying for the uninsured now. It is not just those that can’t afford insurance that are the problem, it is also those that would rather spend their hard earned money elsewhere and leave the responsibility with the rest of us.

I sell health insurance and this would hurt my income, but I would rather have everyone covered than to make a profit.


I also find it funny that people defend our current health care system as been superior when the United States of American is ranked 37 in by the World Health Organization’s World Health Report. France, The United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and 33 other countries rank higher than the U.S. I just don’t understand why if we have such a wonderful system do we rank behind Costa Rica and just in front of Slovenia and Cuba.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 09:50 PM   #31
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
It is on topic. It's me reinforcing my point of why Universal is bad is because with our current economy and high taxes we can't afford more taxes to pay for such a universal health care system. That's how it ties in.
I think you're muddying the waters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
It's because they're corrupt. When we're giving them the money and they don't choose to fix problems and get the money where it's needed in my opinion that's corruption.
The question is, what does corruption in Kenya have to do with socialized medicine in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
Look it up yourself if you want. Google capitalism health care system. Google Universal Health Care System. This isn't one of those things you need to give a source for. It's not like something just heard on the news that's new. The definitions, explanations, and the evidence of it's use and statistics are on the internet. You should look it up yourself. They're facts out there waiting for you to find them.

Again this is just simple. It's like someone saying give me a source when I explain what democracy is and they don't believe that's what it is. Well look it up yourself. It's not hard to find.

Like with capitalism Health Care you do your own work, your own research, and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. This is not Universal Health Care System where another person is paying for your level of care. Meaning I'm not going to do your research for you.
When someone asks you to cite your sources in a debate, you do so, in the interest of furthering the conversation.

Here's one that I just found:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/_m...kofactoids.pdf

But that's besides the point. I've actually done a term paper on this topic, so I've done all the research, including census data reports and other boring government documents. I'm just calling you on claims that I know to be false.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
This isn't a topic about flying is it. It's a medical topic. If it was about flying you could speak with a little more experience. I can speak about this better because I have yes what my father did, learned from stuff he'd talk about. Even this. And I can ask him stuff.
It was an analogy.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2008, 02:22 AM   #32
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,631
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
If you work little you should get little. I think that's fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
That's right it's their fault they are poor. They wouldn't be if they applied themselves. So what it's hard.
Some people (even in American) can work all their lives and never earn enough to pay for medicine for their spouse or children - is that fair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Ones that couldn't wait like yours.
Actually mine couldn't wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
Just out of curiosity, how long did you all have to wait for the surgery?
Well, my surgery was to remove a cancer, so that was rushed in as soon as they could do it, only a few days after i'd seen a doctor (it wasn't too far along to be too urgent, but still important).

My Grandfather had had a heart attack, and he recieved a bypass a few days afterwards.

My Uncle, though, he got ran over by a dump-truck, and he had to wait about a month before they could do it, because of all the other damage he'd recieved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
While I'm generally in favor of universal health care, it's not without its flaws, and long waits can be one of those flaws.
Oh, it can have it's flaws, but mostly, both me and my family's experience of Universal healthcare has overwhelmingly positive - up until I needed surgery last year, i'd been unsure about UHC systems, but it changed my mind becuse I saw how quick it can work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
My friend in Canada had to wait 7 months for an opening, and she was quite sick the entire time. I consider that long of a wait to be both medically inappropriate and ethically questionable.
Although I don't know the Canadian Healthcare system, that still seems like an extreme - maybe it's a one-off? I don't know anyone who's ever had to wait as long for a procedure, but I am aware it can happen.

Did your friend not recieve any support from consultants/surgeons during this time?

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Our technology is very good compared to some other countries. Some research doesn't take very long. In the hospital you might get recommended to a good surgeon. You don't get that in an Universal Health Care System.
Excuse me? I needed surgery, and I was cared for by both a Urologist, and an Oncologist. I was assigned a Specialist Nurse to help me understand what I was going through, and I recieved care and assistance when I needed it.

It's thanks to those doctors and specialists that i'm alive, so I i'd say they were pretty damn good doctors.







Last edited by Astor; 09-23-2008 at 04:17 AM. Reason: Added some more stuff
Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 09:35 PM   #33
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
That's why they come here because they know they'll get the heart quicker rather than waiting for the insurance company to make a move.
Yes, insurance companies here have a vested interest in denying transplants--the high costs for that (as opposed to the patient dying) means their shareholders lose revenue. Insurance companies in the US regularly deny medical treatments they don't want to pay for. At least with a government run system you have some more transparency, and you can vote out the people who don't run it right. People in the US have very little ability to fight insurance company corruption, even with the state insurance commissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Compare the mortality rate of a capitalism health care system and an universal health care system. And look at who has had less deaths under which system.
I don't know about mortality rates overall because I haven't researched that, but I do know maternal and infant mortality rates are lower in a number of countries with universal healthcare than they are in the US. That's because all pregnant women get care in those countries, not merely those who can afford it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
As i've said, when I needed preventative surgery, I got it.
My grandfather needed heart surgery, he got it.
My uncle needed a new hip, He got it.
Just out of curiosity, how long did you all have to wait for the surgery? While I'm generally in favor of universal health care, it's not without its flaws, and long waits can be one of those flaws. When I needed gall bladder surgery, it got done within 3 weeks of the visit to the surgeon. My friend in Canada had to wait 7 months for an opening, and she was quite sick the entire time. I consider that long of a wait to be both medically inappropriate and ethically questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
let me shop around for a month to find you one with a good bedside manor.
Is 'bedside manor' the new name for a bed-and-breakfast?


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 10:07 PM   #34
SD Nihil
Junior Member
 
SD Nihil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: United States of America
Posts: 434
Current Game: K1/2, EaW/FoC, & TFU
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastrmiX
So you're saying that the reason that people are poor is that they're always lazy? I know from personal experience that this is a lie. If people are living in poverty, a number of factors put them there, they could have been born into it, but it's definitely NOT laziness.
I assume you mean in another country where you don't have the same capitalistic freedoms we have in America. If your living in a bad place in America then move to where you can get a job.

Quote:
I can't tell you how so wrong you are. Do some research on America and you'll find out we're really a horrible nation, and that we've done the exact opposite of what you believe throughout history.
Proof other than maybe a few instances of bad care here or there. If we are such a horrible nation why are you still living here. Maybe because we are better than many other countries.

Quote:
Yes, but you get it without having to get your insurance company to sign forms, and other nasty bureaucratic stuff that allows you to get treatment. Therefore, the insurance company is really the one who decides on whether you live or die in a critical operation; When I went to the ER when I got my lip badly cut up in a skiing accident, the first thing they asked me at the sign in desk was: "Proof of insurance?" In a nation with Universal Health Care, that wouldn't happen, as the nation will pay for it right there and then, and the money will only come out of your taxes. Or something like that.
Again you'd have to deal with the insurance company in a UHC system too. With a CHC system you can choose your insurance company that might have better options and is quicker than the other.

Quote:
The point is clear: Would you rather have a COMPANY decide if you have enough money to get healthcare or would you rather have the government give it to you automatically whenever you needed it?
UHC that might not be adequate for your condition. Whereas CHC system you can work to afford the care that is adequate to your needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Heart surgery can wait now?

Go figure.
It depends on the condition and prognosis.

Quote:
And what does corruption in Kenya have to do with Socialized Medicine?
I was simply answering a quote.
Quote:
When someone asks you to cite your sources in a debate, you do so, in the interest of furthering the conversation.

Here's one that I just found:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/_m...kofactoids.pdf

But that's besides the point. I've actually done a term paper on this topic, so I've done all the research, including census data reports and other boring government documents. I'm just calling you on claims that I know to be false.
Your choosing to continue to debate, quote, and egnoledge me.Moore is just a guy commenting on what he thinks. Like you.


SD Nihil is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 10:17 PM   #35
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
I think you're missing the fundamental reasons a Universal Healthcare program will be beneficial and affordable.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-22-2008, 10:32 PM   #36
Inyri
The Magical Malefactor
 
Inyri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,505
Current Game: Mass Effect 3
Veteran Modder Forum Veteran Helpful! Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Stow away on a boxcar if you don't have enough money to travel because you can't get a job where you currently live!

Man, did that sound as stupid to you as it did to me?

Inyri is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2008, 03:52 AM   #37
Bee Hoon
ngom ngom ngom
 
Bee Hoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,268
Forum Veteran Veteran Fan Fic Author LFN Staff Member Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
I can speak on this type of medical topic well in that my father is a retired Nurse Anesthetist. These are the guys that put you to sleep. The I V's, gas mask, that kind of thing. You need several in the room to deal with how much of this and that medicine they need while under surgery. Theirs another anesthetist watching the EKG and such.
Your father may have worked in the medical field, but I hardly expect diffusion of knowledge to occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Yes you have to work for it. Why should I have to pay more taxes for someone else who didn't put forth the effort to work hard. You didn't choose to work hard sorry I'm not going to award your laziness. That may sound cold, but I don't believe in awarding those that choose to work the minimum and expect to get more for little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
That's right it's their fault they are poor. They wouldn't be if they applied themselves. So what it's hard. Heck my Dad started out living in someone's garage. So you can do it if you work at it. So yes those that worked hard get to have more and those that are lazy get little. To some I may seem like a monster. But this is how some conservatives believe. And I'm not ashamed or feel guilty in the least. When I go to sleep I sleep like a log. I just don't care that the poor man is dying in a ditch. I may feel pity or sympathy for his pain, but at the same time I know he could have helped himself not to have had that pain.
Your definition of "humane" is inaccurate. Please revise your self-perception.

Please see my post regarding poverty and subsistence farmers. Perhaps you will continue harping on the USA situation, but has it ever occurred to you that others are stuck in similar cycles of poverty? It's good that your father has improved his financial standings, but at least your grandfather was skilled labour (presuming that you were referring to your paternal grandfather), and would earn much more than a janitor, a clerk, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Again with capitalism you have choice of level of care. Universal you all get the same level of care. Nothing better than the current level. With your condition that might not be adequate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Our technology is very good compared to some other countries. Some research doesn't take very long. In the hospital you might get recommended to a good surgeon. You don't get that in an Universal Health Care System.
Let's have a little lesson on community medicine. Primary care is where the patient makes first contact with the physician. Where further care is needed, the patients are referred to the appropriate hospitals or to specific specialists. And yes, I have seen this firsthand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
It does have to do with the topic. It means we have more because we strived to work hard and make progress. In an Universal Health Care System your incentive to work harder, make new health care improvements, and do more than the minimum is hampered because you will not make more, get advancement, or get rewarded for doing more than the set by the government standard of care quotient.
A good medical practitioner will *always* want to improve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
It shows his motives real well. If he didn't care about the patients and only about profit he would have continued to work despite his hearing loss. He may have bad hearing, but heck with the fact it might cause a problem in the surgery room money would've mattered more.
If he could continue to work (regardless of motivation), it implies a serious problem with the hospital if they are willing allow a situation which may endanger patients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Your choosing to continue to debate, quote, and egnoledge me.Moore is just a guy commenting on what he thinks. Like you.
It amuses me that you do not seem to acknowledge that you are also merely airing your opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
You'd wait longer in UHC System.
Proof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
Other countries like you've mentioned guys don't provide care well.
According to UNICEF, as of 2006, USA and Malaysia have the same neonatal mortality rate--one of the standards of measuring healthcare. It may be that rather than reflecting well on my country, it reflects badly on yours; as Jae mentioned, expectant mothers who cannot afford it are deprived of antenatal care. In Malaysia (which has universal healthcare under the Ministry of Health), all expectant mothers are given free antenatal and postnatal care, regardless of socioeconomic background, race or religion.



The sun goes down and the sky reddens, pain grows sharp.
light dwindles. Then is evening
when jasmine flowers open, the deluded say.
But evening is the great brightening dawn
when crested cocks crow all through the tall city
and evening is the whole day
for those without their lovers

-Kuruntokai 234, translated by A.K. Ramanujan

[Fic] Shreds of a Dying Belief
Bee Hoon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2008, 02:06 PM   #38
SW01
3 Years in the Lurk
 
SW01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northern Ireland, UK
Posts: 1,075
Current Game: Real Life
I fully support our National Health Service, this 'Universal Health Care system'. To me, it has always been a source of fascination that one of the wealthiest governments on the planet made their people pay for basic healthcare.

Now, from experience...

A member of my family is seriously disabled. He requires a long list of medicines, along with visits from a nurse and, occassionally, emergency admittance to a hospital, not to mention equipment to administer medicines, and meetings with consultants. Now, as a UK resident this all comes to us free. NHS costs are (if I understand correctly) part of our national insurance contribution from taxes.

If I was a part of a 'capitalist' healthcare system, I believe that this kind of extensive healthcare would be well out of range, due to financial restrictions. Of course, correct me if I am wrong, bearing in mind that I am not from a particularly wealthy family.

The universal healthcare systems may not necessarily provide the absolute pinnacle of available medical care, but at least we don't need to resort to 'back-street' physicians, or worse go without. The physicians that we see are approved by a system controlled by the government - which guarantees a certain level of ability. The private care system is still there in Britain and France (I can't attest to the others) for those who really want it, but we all have the access we need to care at all times.


SW01 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2008, 06:08 PM   #39
Lance Monance
Rookie
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
I think your stance on poverty (and how to get out of it) is wrong on a fundamental level, SD Nihil.
You stated repeatedly that hard work and effort will always enable you to beat poverty. But that's only one factor, out of many. You have to consider all of those. Surely you agree that chance, luck and circumstances are important as well? What about talent and intelligence? Either you're born with those traits or you're not. They affect your success, just like effort does.

Long story short, some people will not be able to afford healthcare, no matter how hard they try.
Lance Monance is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2008, 07:52 PM   #40
SW01
3 Years in the Lurk
 
SW01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northern Ireland, UK
Posts: 1,075
Current Game: Real Life
No, it is by no means completely free, it is paid for, as I said, through the national insurance contribution in income taxation. But, as has been said elsewhere, you must take into consideration the fact that such a thing overrules the need for everyone to pay for health insurance separately. From what I understand, the contribution we make is less than is required to maintain an insurance plan.

Also, on the government being too financially strained to cope, the NHS in Britain was set up only a few years after the Second World War. The government then was not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.


SW01 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > Universal Healthcare?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:00 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.