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Old 02-08-2009, 03:15 PM   #1
Yar-El
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Newsweek Article

Newsweek Article - Why There Won’t Be a Revolution

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The poor you will always have, the good book says, but as for the rich man, he will wither away like a delicate flower in the midday sun. The first prediction has certainly been borne out, but the second part (James 1:11) had not yet come to pass by the Panic of 1907, when Theodore Roosevelt warned of a coming reckoning against the "malefactors of great wealth." Nor by 1990, when former Nixon aide Kevin Phillips predicted that Americans would rise to extract revenge on "the rich who got the benefits of the go-go years" of the 1980s. As late as 2001, no less an authority than, uh, NEWSWEEK wrote in the wake of 9/11 that "the arrogant wheeler-dealer ordering a $600 bottle of wine with dinner … has vanished utterly as an icon," which remained true until approximately 2002. Well, listen up, you rich guys, this time we really mean it. The president himself is repelled by your rapacious greed, your kids are ashamed to admit that their mom is a banker, even your girlfriends are sick of your whining about your bonus, and you're going to have to learn to live on $500,000 a year like a normal person. Oh, and by the way, nice watch. Is it Cartier?
I completely disagree with the reason behind why the upcoming revolution will be exclusively about class. I have seen and read enough to believe the next revolution will be about those who are corrupt and those who are patriots. Almost everyone in politics, massmedia, and in corporations are corrupt. Each is pushing for a stake in controlling how we think, walk, eat, and breath. I truely think we are going to have a revolution in the very near future; however, I don't think the massmedia is ready to be blamed for being apart of the problem.

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Old 02-08-2009, 03:35 PM   #2
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It depends on how a "revolution" should be interpreted. If you mean a revolution against the state by rogue organizations, i.e., guerrilla warfare, then I doubt that would happen in the US, or anywhere else in the Western world.

First, no one is being persecuted to the breaking point. There are reasons why Batista, Pahlavi, and Nicolas II all faced revolution; they were complete despots. They controlled the population with fear absolute authority, which really has not happened in America.

Additionally, it's an unfortunate fact that most Americans are either too lazy or ignorant to resort to protests and eventually violence against the state.

Oh, and nice try disguising this thread. We all know who it's really about... (It starts with an "O" and ends with an "a")
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:54 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
It depends on how a "revolution" should be interpreted. If you mean a revolution against the state by rogue organizations, i.e., guerrilla warfare, then I doubt that would happen in the US, or anywhere else in the Western world.

First, no one is being persecuted to the breaking point. There are reasons why Batista, Pahlavi, and Nicolas II all faced revolution; they were complete despots. They controlled the population with fear absolute authority, which really has not happened in America.

Additionally, it's an unfortunate fact that most Americans are either too lazy or ignorant to resort to protests and eventually violence against the state.
Wrong! The American Revolution was not exclusively about persecution. We have also hit a breaking point in US history. People are extremely motivated by the corruption in politics, corporations, and massmedia. Listen to what people are saying. We have politicians scaring people with war, high taxes, and economic decline. I don't think we will resort to protests due to the realization they don't work. Action is the only other course.

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Oh, and nice try disguising this thread. We all know who it's really about... (It starts with an "O" and ends with an "a")
Is this a new thing now? Someone has a opinion in contradiction to a selected group, and then they yell, "FOUL!" Where did you get Obama from? I'm talking about a all out revolution between the corrupt and uncorrupt.
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:57 PM   #4
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Is this a new thing now? Someone has a opinion in contradiction to a selected group, and then they yell, "FOUL!" Where did you get Obama from?
That's not new, its been going on since Time immemorial.

There won't be a revolution due to the fact the FBI/CIA and the Army ultimately, wouldn't allow it.



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Old 02-08-2009, 03:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
That's not new, its been going on since Time immemorial.

There won't be a revolution due to the fact the FBI/CIA and the Army ultimately, wouldn't allow it.
There are laws that prevent them from being involved.

The Posse Comitatus Act & Insurrection Act of 1807.

I think people are feeling truely enraged.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:02 PM   #6
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There are laws that prevent them from being involved.

The Posse Comitatus Act & Insurrection Act of 1807
Do you really think all these "corrupt" politicians would allow themselves to loose power over a 200 year old law. Nor do I think the dynamics are anywhere near bad enough for a revolution, America has seen much worse times off without one.

Revolutions are only successful if you have control of a vital asset - the army, nor do I think people are nearly as angry over the super rich as you think...



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Old 02-08-2009, 04:17 PM   #7
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I'm American.

I disagree with a revolution being entirely about class as the article says. I can see it being more about outrage for some reason or another. We've already begun numerous threads of why, pointing to this as a conclusion.

Patriots vs corrupt intenrational weasels? OK. I can go with that.
Yeah, whoever heard of an honest politician?
Media...yeah it's about time they got their spanking...
Likely, if the banks and economic system melt down and collapse. That is the most plausible main reason. That and someone finally succeeds in undoing our constitution. Which, there are some who wish to do that, in secrecy.


--Still going to play devil's advocate here: I mean I know people generally don't mean well...but come on. World collapse? I know it's gonna suck for us here in the states if/when something boils over, that much I won't deny--but the whole world?

Quote:
Oh, and nice try disguising this thread. We all know who it's really about... (It starts with an "O" and ends with an "a")
Down, boy! Down! Seriously why does everyone assume in the least it's all about Obama? He's just a man--furthermore I think the article in question is concentrating on an issue--not a person (even if there may be a relationship between them). >_>

No more of this Obama crap, fanboys, fangirls, and critics.


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Old 02-08-2009, 04:29 PM   #8
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I don't see a Revolution happening in this day and age, to be honest, especially in the US.

If revolution were as imminent as is claimed, surely we all (and I include people of all nationalities in this) would have seen something of this?






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Old 02-08-2009, 05:06 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
America has the biggest military in the world; we have a duel presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, should there be a revolution, the Army could well be put into disarary. And as such, that effects our troop, and has an effect on Britain. Ergo; I'm affected.
Taken.

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Should there be a revolution, the already fragile Financial markets would be hit by further freefall; ergo I'm affected.
Okay. I can see where you're coming from on an individual level...but on a larger level...I still have doubts. You mean to tell me other wealthy nations (namely those in europe) would be unable to stand on their own sufficiently if something happened to the US? I know the financial situations are volatile--but I have a hard time believing it would become financially so dire if things went to hell in USA. You really mean to tell me if the financial sector broke here, that places like yours would experience a crisis like a depression?

--However I do share your sentiment that if the goniffs high on the food chain do something to rock the boat like take all the money and run --for office or their hideout-- then they ought to be dealt with. How 'dealt with' is another subject not entirely relevant--you get my point here I think.

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America is the worlds biggest donate of aid; if there is a revolution that could change, ergo any country needed aid is affected.
Wasn't sure. Actually thank you, that's good to hear--the nauseating America bashers in this country who live here would have you believe otherwise. Seriously. --That is good news. Thanks.

However: Greed here is still higher than I ever remember it in my life. On all levels.

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On a personal level; I have American family - if there is a revolution that would cause me to be worried and affected.
OK. Good a reason as any. Gives me a little more reason to look out for my neighbors.

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Do you really want me to go on?
I think I see your points... more or less.

Save for the above, bank wise (take as far as need be), No, you don't really have to--sounds like it pains you somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
I don't see a Revolution happening in this day and age, to be honest, especially in the US.

If revolution were as imminent as is claimed, surely we all (and I include people of all nationalities in this) would have seen something of this?
Sort of what I'm saying. There is more unrest, though. Probably insignificant on a relative scale. The greed is going up, though.


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Old 02-08-2009, 04:48 PM   #10
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J7 is un-ignorable, partly due to being a nice wordsmith, partly due to being a mod.

Not feel the effects imediately? My countries are Russia and Norway, and an American revolution might well lead to a rather imediate occupation of the latter by the former, which would affect me in a majorly bad way (would make paperwork a breeze though).

Anyway, I can't see a revolution due to corruption, sure, America does have corruption, but it is nothing in a global sense. Besides, a country with fairly functual governmental institutions, a fairly well off population and little oppression gives the people little reason to want a revolution, as well as making one nigh on impossible to pull off.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:53 PM   #11
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I'm an American, and I think people are overreacting. It isn't that bad. The problem with America is that it is too divided. Remember George Washinton's Farewell Address? He was spot on about pretty much everything, especially his warnings about Political Parties and Government spending.

America is, as Kreia would say:

Quote:
[...] a stagnant beast that labors for breath...
I also quote:

Quote:
Divided we fail.
The problem is only partially connected to the wealthy people of the country, it is composed of tons of problems and issues that hold it back and starve it from its potential.

I dont think there'll be any revolution. People are just going to keep whining and complaining, but it won't do anything. The country will keep going, slowly and painfully, deteriorating and bulding itself back up, until someone steps up and really gets things moving.

Still, it could be worse. But it's not going to get much worse. It's just going to keep going and going and going, having its ups and downs as usual...


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Old 02-08-2009, 05:03 PM   #12
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You don't think people are boiling over? I keep hearing about another Revolution. I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days. Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
You don't think people are boiling over? I keep hearing about another Revolution. I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days. Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
Hype to sell papers and rhetoric from douchebags with anarchist Hot Topic t-shirts, no one cares, Law & Order is on!



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Old 02-08-2009, 05:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
You don't think people are boiling over?
Don't you think you're being a bit over-dramatic and acutely paranoid?
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I keep hearing about another Revolution.
If it's from a man named Beelzebub, then I think you should see a priest. If it's from God, the I think you should see a psychiatrist.
Quote:
I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days.
You can also ignore the bum on the street who says that Jesus is coming, which is most advisable.
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Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
I'm feeling particularly dull at the moment, but that's probably because I'm reading this thread.
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
You don't think people are boiling over? I keep hearing about another Revolution. I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days. Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
What are they boiling over about? I see no major protests like in the '60's. I see no rallies for some social cause. What, precisely, would Americans be revolting against, assuming you could get them up off their sofas and away from the latest episode of the The Simpsons?


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Old 02-09-2009, 06:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
What are they boiling over about? I see no major protests like in the '60's. I see no rallies for some social cause. What, precisely, would Americans be revolting against, assuming you could get them up off their sofas and away from the latest episode of the The Simpsons?
Completely concur, as there is no way that any revolution in America shall ever get off the ground. The sad truth is, a good deal of Americans are either too lazy or too ignorant to be politically and socially conscious. If things became more economically desperate, then perhaps there will be more and more dissent, but since there were few real revolutionary movements during the Great Depression, which was essentially rock bottom, I doubt that there will be a real amount of rebellion at the moment.

Oh, and watches The Simpsons anymore? That show got sucky several years ago.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:19 PM   #17
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Okay. I can see where you're coming from on an individual level...but on a larger level...I still have doubts. You mean to tell me other wealthy nations (namely those in europe) would be unable to stand on their own sufficiently if something happened to the US?
Yes, and to give you the basics in a simplified way, it works like this. Spesialization means things are produced where they are cheapest, drivven by demand from whoever is consuming. This means that for instance insane amounts of businesses depend on demand in other countries, and since the US is the biggest consumer....

Quote:
I know the financial situations are volatile--but I have a hard time believing it would become financially so dire if things went to hell in USA. You really mean to tell me if the financial sector broke here, that places like yours would experience a crisis like a depression?
Finance is global, where the money commes from matters little, and since the US is such a big part of the financial sector in the world, the crisis is far from local.

As for whatever is boiling under the surface, it smells more like standard bad times uncertanty than a revolution.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:04 PM   #18
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Yes, and to give you the basics in a simplified way, it works like this. Spesialization means things are produced where they are cheapest, drivven by demand from whoever is consuming. This means that for instance insane amounts of businesses depend on demand in other countries, and since the US is the biggest consumer....
Unfortunately, I don't really see how consumption can continue as is. I mean, how much can we American people really consume? Sure we always need food and tools and clothes and similar.

So far as goods beyond the practical...those relying on us to buy those are in for one hell ride. Sorry. We're in a trend of buying practical stuff for gifts for the time being.

Also, though this may get flack from everyone here--if America doesn't start producing at least *some* of its own goods again (independently and privately as well as public and otherwise), and a natural disaster were to isolate us from the world so that imports and exports can't come and go, we are *screwed*. This isn't paranoia or propaganda talking here. Common sense: we can't stop seismic activity, or erupting volcanoes, or oceanic disasters or a host of other things. I'm not saying go isolationist, just a good idea to be prepared is all. And it's not a bad thing to have some localization in production.

Glad to see you understand some economics though.

Quote:
Finance is global, where the money commes from matters little, and since the US is such a big part of the financial sector in the world, the crisis is far from local.
There is nobody else to consume your goods?
You provide for yourselves do you not?

Quote:
As for whatever is boiling under the surface, it smells more like standard bad times uncertanty than a revolution.
That wasn't me that said that. Direct it to who did. I'm not all that sure about it actually happening or not. Nor am I completely sure of the backlash.


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Old 02-08-2009, 06:07 PM   #19
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you sir have convinced me that a revolution in the country that has the highest gdp of any single country would not matter to people in other countries all that much



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Old 02-08-2009, 06:14 PM   #20
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As much as I might want it to happen, a revolution has about a snowball's chance in Hell of occuring here in the land of universal apathy.

Things would have to get way, way worse than they are now.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:55 PM   #21
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Indeed. To quote Kreia:

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Apathy is death
Well maybe not death, but I agree, apathy isn't a very good thing for a representative democratic country trying to manage 300+ million people.

Things are going to give way, they're be talk of armageddon, revolution, etc, etc, things will get better every now and then, but it'll stay the same for a long, long time. I'll be centuries dead before Star trek becmes reality.

But I'm not being cynical here. I think that progress will be made, slowly, as the world's stability deteriorates. By the time we've got statrek level technology, we'll have to take some time to fix things up on our planet before we start traveling the galaxy.

But, even as bad as things are now, I do beleive that our Ancestors will travel the galaxy.


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Old 02-08-2009, 08:54 PM   #22
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But, even as bad as things are now, I do beleive that our Ancestors will travel the galaxy.
I guess, if they somehow discovered time travel, maybe.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:35 PM   #23
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I disagree with your premise Yar and most of the points you've made along the way, generally those things have existed in the US for years, and recessions have happened as well, and we've only had one revolution so far, and the conditions required for that to happen aren't existing now. I guess you could count the Civil War, but that's different reasons entirely, as the nation isn't that divided.

So no, no revolution, not now, not in the near future.


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Old 02-08-2009, 09:15 PM   #24
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Time isn't a fixed concept don't be so closed minded.



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Old 02-08-2009, 09:53 PM   #25
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Time isn't a fixed concept don't be so closed minded.
It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey stuff.


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Old 02-08-2009, 10:30 PM   #26
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It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey stuff.
This reference is win.

That is all.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:19 PM   #27
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Time isn't a fixed concept don't be so closed minded.
Anything is possible!!


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Old 02-09-2009, 09:37 AM   #28
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Anything is possible!!
Bwahahahaha! String is the thing!



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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:00 PM   #29
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You and I don't have anything to say to each other on this topic. Another American Revolution doesn't directly affect you; thus, there is no longer any need for you and I to debate on the subject.

I will wait until an American Citizen chimes in.
Wow, well that's absurd. J7 is one of the smartest people I know and he knows more about American politics &etc than many Americans, perhaps including you.

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Has the United States really become an empire? Do other people think this way? How can a Revolutionary War in the US be globally effective? I didn't think we had a global impact in such a scale.
Yes, we really do.

(By the way, PA is in America if you were wondering.)

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Old 02-09-2009, 01:43 AM   #30
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Unfortunately, I don't really see how consumption can continue as is. I mean, how much can we American people really consume? Sure we always need food and tools and clothes and similar.
Why can't it? Yes, it won't for a while, but the major reason for people not spending is A: their homes have lost much of their value, and B credit becomming very expensive (conected, but I asume you know how), sure, job loss/fear of loosing ones job factors inn, but with Americas flexible economy, it shouldn't have any problems picking up again once credit is available.

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Also, though this may get flack from everyone here--if America doesn't start producing at least *some* of its own goods again (independently and privately as well as public and otherwise), and a natural disaster were to isolate us from the world so that imports and exports can't come and go, we are *screwed*. This isn't paranoia or propaganda talking here. Common sense: we can't stop seismic activity, or erupting volcanoes, or oceanic disasters or a host of other things. I'm not saying go isolationist, just a good idea to be prepared is all. And it's not a bad thing to have some localization in production.
I would like you to take a look at what the US actually produce, it should give you a nice surprise. Also, out of curiosity, could you mention one kind of disaster that would cut you off from the rest of the world?

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There is nobody else to consume your goods?
You provide for yourselves do you not?
I presume this was directed at my earlier point and not the one I quoted? If so, let's asume 80% of what a company produce is sold to the US, what do you think will happen if demand there sinks to 20% of production? It is not as if demand will magically apear somewhere else.

@Jae:aparently including you wasting mucho time imitating banned members:P I know, 98 seconds of my life that I can never reclaim. --Jae

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 02-09-2009 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:36 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
I would like you to take a look at what the US actually produce, it should give you a nice surprise. Also, out of curiosity, could you mention one kind of disaster that would cut you off from the rest of the world?
Not to mention a great deal of the world would be really sad over not having any more bread, or corn. Honestly, if the US was totally economically isolated, but could still operate normally within it's bounds, we'd just re-purpose a lot of the land we use for farming profitable things like wheat and corn and grow stuff we need here.

Sure, we wouldn't have our Xboxes or our fancy Japanese cars, but I'm sure we could go without buying a new car for 5 years while companies here figure out how to build within the limits of the nation.

And if the US did ever magically reconnect with the world, you think it's a super-power now? Imagine a nation as powerful as the US that didn't require a single nation outside it's borders to survive. Any large nation that can develop power and sustain itsself without outside assistance is a nation to reckon with. Which is something that would make me obscenely happy, some of our dependencies on other nations are just stupid.

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This reference is win.

That is all.
Heh, I saw that and went "Oh snap, The Doctor will get this!" and posted it.


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Old 02-09-2009, 05:04 PM   #32
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Search for posts by Windu-Chi, or if you're too lazy lets just say that he was litterally a colourfull ranter.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:25 PM   #33
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Agreed, on all accounts. Capitalism is, undoubtedly, the worst economic philosophy in the long run. Does it produce results? Yes.
Are the by-products and costs of it, the corporate control, the bribery, the corruption, worth it? No.
Look at the world, which parts of it have been doing good? Capitalism (or, the practicall examples of it anyway) is a wonderfull way of increasing the wealth of all citzens in a society. Of course, it dosen't do it fairly, so the income gap betwen rich and poor end up high. So, how is a system that creates oodles of wealth "undoubtedly the worst economic philosophy in the long run"?

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But I don't see that happening, so I'll go with the option that takes out the factor of corporate leeches that suck the life out of civilians and breed many social and political evils, such as conformism, wealth gaps, and overseas slave labour.
Lets instead enjoy having government leeches, and the evils they bring, like lack of inovation, slow growth, lower quality products etc

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Government controlled anything is pretty much a horrible thing. I do have to agree with one thing Obama mentioned. We have to hold people accountable for the money we give them; nevertheless, I'm not sure if giving money to failing companies is being responsible. I've been watching the stock market. Its on a freefall after the Treasury spoke up about their revised plan.
If you are talking about giving cash too carmakers and their ilk, agreed, they can fall without causing much long term damage. The financial sector on the other hand fuels the rest of the economy, and alowing big parts of it to fall would mean alowing a lot of profittable companies to fall with them.

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Socialism is not the way to go. We should allow these companies to fall; thus, allowing us to rebuild the industrial and agricultural sector.
Err, why would you want to rebuild your industry? It seems to be working alright to me, focusing on what it's best at. As for Agriculture, I hope your idea of alowing companies to fall aplies here too, because a lot will fall if you cut their subsidies, which IMO would be good in the long run.


@jmac: Tsarist Russia, yes, modern Russia, no. As much as I hate our current administration, they aren't that bad, yet
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:36 PM   #34
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*Walks into the thread and reads. Scratches head.*
I don't get Jae's joke? Can someone explain it?
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:05 AM   #35
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...and this will not get you mad?

Article - Obama says only government can save U.S. economy
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WASHINGTON, Feb 9 (Reuters) - President Barack Obama on Monday made a new plea for Congress to pass his economic stimulus plan, saying the federal government was "the only entity left with the resources to jolt the U.S. economy back to life."

"It is only government that can break the vicious cycle where lost jobs lead to people spending less money which leads to even more layoffs. And breaking that cycle is exactly what the plan that's moving through Congress is designed to do," Obama said in his first news conference since taking office on Jan. 20.

Obama spoke hours after the Senate cleared a procedural hurdle on the Democratic-backed stimulus package, setting up a vote on Tuesday on the $838 billion package of tax cuts and emergency government spending which was likely to pass.
Last night I was going to jump online to see if anyone commented on the statement. I'm a little surprised. Welcome to socialism!
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:29 AM   #36
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I don't think this is going to foment revolution, however. People are less likely to revolt against the person/entity that's giving them something.


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Old 02-10-2009, 09:35 AM   #37
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Why are people in the US so afraid of Socialism? A lot of things Americans take for granted is already Socialist in nature, so why does it induce people to scream 'The End is Nigh'?






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Old 02-10-2009, 09:57 AM   #38
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Why are people in the US so afraid of Socialism? A lot of things Americans take for granted is already Socialist in nature, so why does it induce people to scream 'The End is Nigh'?
My guess is it's a cultural thing, American 'socialism' is extremely mild so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

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Old 02-10-2009, 10:18 AM   #39
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Why are people in the US so afraid of Socialism? A lot of things Americans take for granted is already Socialist in nature, so why does it induce people to scream 'The End is Nigh'?
because almost no one knows what it is. someone in my english class blamed the ussr's poor economy and human rights violations on them being socialist/communist (which were the same in nearly everyone else's eyes). i almost brought up tsarist russia and modern russia and how they're just as bad as soviet russia and how i'm a socialist, but i elected to hold my tongue and stay off government watchlists and remain the quiet kid in class rather than the commie subversive.

in short, the red scare never really went away, our politicians can trump anything they don't like by saying it's socialist/communist/marxist in addition to saying terrorists are quite fond of it because no one cares if it is or not and that we almost had an essentially openly socialist president in 1945 instead of truman. **** mccarthy, **** nixon they ushered in an era of cynicism, love of ignorance, and government secrecy and generally horrible **** thanks guys.


in shorter, people believe socialism is obama doing this instead of them not being ****ed by the health insurance industry and all that jazz




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Old 02-10-2009, 11:33 AM   #40
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Why are people in the US so afraid of Socialism? A lot of things Americans take for granted is already Socialist in nature, so why does it induce people to scream 'The End is Nigh'?
It isn't a very new thing; socialism has been seen as taboo for over a century now. Hence why Upton Sinclair gained little popularity in the US during his time, but was more renowned in Europe. Either way, the Cold War perpetuated the ignorance, and that ignorance is returning with Obama's so-called "radical" reforms, when essentially, FDR enacted similar legislature during the Depression.
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