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Old 06-23-2010, 10:03 PM   #1
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TSL'S Story Being "Cancelled"?

Why is LucasArts trying to erase the story of THE SITH LORDS and pretend that its events never happened (you know, with Kreia, the Exile, and so on)?
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:12 PM   #2
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:13 PM   #3
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I know, it sounds ridiculous, but I did read some post that said TSL was being "retconned".

Ehhh?
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:15 PM   #4
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:16 PM   #5
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It's more like "ignored" than "refuted".
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by TriggerGod
Remember how Bioware was making this MMO set in the KOTOR era? Yeah, they're still making it. And retconning Obsidian's work on TSL.
Someone remind me what's being "retconned" again?

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Old 06-23-2010, 10:29 PM   #7
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Well, the only parallel I see is that Bioware only did K1 and not TSL, so maybe they'd rather use their own work? :S

Past that, I don't really know why they'd ignore TSL.


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Old 06-24-2010, 12:35 AM   #8
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Sheesh, stop being so naive. It was written by Obsidian, which means that it was a complex and too experimental a story for Star Wars. It did not involve your standard BioWare archetype characters, had no party-that-goes-happy-and-then-lucky adventure, and did not involve any "epic" events or music.

In BioWarean philosophy, it's a sucky story and so BioWare is going to do what it does best: tell the Dragon Age/Mass Effect story again, in a space opera envirionment.


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Old 06-24-2010, 04:50 AM   #9
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tell the Dragon Age/Mass Effect story again, in a space opera envirionment.
There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ

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Old 06-24-2010, 09:54 AM   #10
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There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ

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Old 06-24-2010, 10:03 AM   #11
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There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ
Except they're Corellian and red-skinned Twi'Leks. It's called moral depth.


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Old 06-24-2010, 11:26 PM   #12
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There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ
Mais oui, mon amour.

Seriously, TOR's supposed to be a few hundred years into the future from the K1/TSL storylines, so they don't necessarily have to retcon anything. Bioware pretty much gets to start from scratch with that much time between those games.


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Old 06-25-2010, 01:15 PM   #13
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Seriously, TOR's supposed to be a few hundred years into the future from the K1/TSL storylines, so they don't necessarily have to retcon anything.
The reason it's set a few hundred years into the future is that they don't have to retcon anything.


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Old 06-24-2010, 12:37 AM   #14
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It's all LA's work anyways...so it's actually their decision to ignore it I think.

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Old 06-24-2010, 02:33 AM   #15
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If it's "officially" true, I'm not at all shocked based on what has happened so far in the development of TOR.


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Old 06-24-2010, 10:17 AM   #16
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Too bad... I liked the TSL story, even if it wasn't the clearer story, and that TSL is half completed, but the story was original, I liked Kreia, and the fact of question the jedi's wisdom, I always think that the jedi philosophy has a lot of wrong points, so the Kreias philosophy of exploring both ways, etc, and how she kill them, and what she say then, I have always liked kreia, even if she's so annoying every time with her "no! don't do that!", "why have you done that", but as long as she don't start questionning my actions I like her x)


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Old 06-24-2010, 10:44 AM   #17
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Why is LucasArts trying to erase the story of THE SITH LORDS and pretend that its events never happened (you know, with Kreia, the Exile, and so on)?
Bioware on TSL:

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Originally Posted by RobChestney
Hey Folks, always nice to see the healthy debate sparked by the Timeline pieces. I love Star Wars history and particularly anything relating to KotOR. Even though KotOR 2 was developed by another developer, lots of folks at BioWare played and enjoyed it, including myself. If you look closely within the game, you will find several references to events or characters from KotOR 2, and we absolutely treat it as canon. I will also say that there have been discussions about the final fate of the Exile, who was indeed a woman according to the canon.

When outlining the Timeline series, though, we skipped over the events of KotOR2 for a few reasons:

(SPOILER ALERT if you haven't played KotOR 2)

Essentially, what happened in KotOR 2 is that a few years after Revan disappeared, a new trinity of Sith Lords materialized and drove the Jedi into hiding. Kreia (aka Darth Traya) sought out the Jedi Exile, and sought to use her as a mechanism for destroying the Force itself. The Exile defeated the Sith Lords, foiled Kreia's plan, and disappeared into deep space searching for Revan. The galaxy was essentially returned to the same state as it was in before the events of KotOR 2.

A few things about this: first, it all happened behind the scenes; the Jedi of the TOR era don't even know what really happened, in fact the only people who ever knew were the Exile and her companions. Second, because the events of KotOR 2 didn't really change the political landscape of the galaxy in any significant way, it's really more of an historical footnote to the Jedi Civil War rather than a major event in its own right.

This is absolutely not to say the story of KotOR 2 wasn't important. Taken in the context of the Timeline series, however, we decided it would be confusing and that the next note in the history of the galaxy should be the Jedi Civil War.

Thanks for all the feedback and interest in the game and in the Timeline videos. You guys remind us of why we're doing all this, so keep it up.

Cheers
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:01 AM   #18
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Bioware on TSL:



I found this here.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Plus, if they really were disregarding it, they wouldn't have even mentioned Revan disappearing.

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Old 06-24-2010, 01:15 PM   #19
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Bioware on TSL:



I found this here.


Well I guess the lesson here ladies and gentlemen is: Always get it straight from the horse's mouth, no matter what you hear otherwise. I was starting think they were ignoring TSL too.



Great find Endorenna!


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Old 06-24-2010, 10:45 AM   #20
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They are just jelous that obsiden beat them to the game.




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Old 06-24-2010, 11:09 AM   #21
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They are just jelous that obsiden beat them to the game.
No, BioWare was just too busy with Jade Empire at the time, hell BioWare even got Obsidian the job.


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Old 06-24-2010, 12:42 PM   #22
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No, BioWare was just too busy with Jade Empire at the time, hell BioWare even got Obsidian the job.
This^^ Bioware Suggested Obsidian to LA

Also, as Rob Chestney say's, TSL was a story that happened in the Shadows, and once ended, the Galaxy was none the wiser anyway.


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Old 06-24-2010, 01:13 PM   #23
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*snip*
This does make a lot of sense.

The other big dispute I've noticed is over Revan's motivations, which were a central plot element of TSL. The latest timeline does not actually conflict with TSL's canon regarding Revan's discovery of the True Sith and his decision to utilize the Dark Side to fight them. Thus, one could say that true to TSL Revan pretended to become the Sith Emperor's puppet. The timeline doesn't actually say it, but allows such an interpretation.

I say that was some decent writing on Bioware's part.

And on that note, I'd say that Bioware's problem is not poor character development anymore. I've been playing Dragon Age recently and I'd say that the Party Members in that have the most depth I've seen in a Bioware work. The problem is that they overuse the same format for their characters and story. Hell, Mass Effect is an outright rip off of KOTOR in terms of plot, which is why I have no interest in really playing it. Dragon Age was also initially disappointing in that they promised more variety of plot outcomes for each different class when in reality it's the same ending when the chips are down. If Bioware can find a new format for their stories, I'd say they'd be in better shape.


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Old 06-24-2010, 01:22 PM   #24
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The other big dispute I've noticed is over Revan's motivations, which were a central plot element of TSL. The latest timeline does not actually conflict with TSL's canon regarding Revan's discovery of the True Sith and his decision to utilize the Dark Side to fight them.
Agreed. It also goes along the same lines as Endorenna find. If I remember correctly most of the conversations about Revan’s motivation were between the Exile and Kreia. Well with Kreia dead and the Exile headed for the Unknown region, who exactly was left to share Kreia’s theories with the rest of the galaxy?


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Old 06-24-2010, 02:26 PM   #25
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Agreed. It also goes along the same lines as Endorenna find. If I remember correctly most of the conversations about Revan’s motivation were between the Exile and Kreia. Well with Kreia dead and the Exile headed for the Unknown region, who exactly was left to share Kreia’s theories with the rest of the galaxy?

not to mention that kreia's theories are just that, theories (and trying to save face for her star pupil turning to the dark side)

i never took it as the undisputed truth.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:52 PM   #26
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not to mention that kreia's theories are just that, theories (and trying to save face for her star pupil turning to the dark side)

i never took it as the undisputed truth.
I'd call it more speculation: Some truth, and lots of interpretation. All she really said as a matter of fact was that Revan's motives were always his own and that he was true to himself. Which to be honest fits right into the plot outlined w/ TOR.

I will say that anyone entrusting procurement of the Star Forge to a couple lackeys is making a stupid mistake, 1300 years old or not. But in the end it was of little to no matter anyways. So he must have seen and known its capabilities before and was able to work out scenarios in either case.


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Old 06-24-2010, 09:35 PM   #27
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I'd call it more speculation: Some truth, and lots of interpretation. All she really said as a matter of fact was that Revan's motives were always his own and that he was true to himself. Which to be honest fits right into the plot outlined w/ TOR.

I will say that anyone entrusting procurement of the Star Forge to a couple lackeys is making a stupid mistake, 1300 years old or not. But in the end it was of little to no matter anyways. So he must have seen and known its capabilities before and was able to work out scenarios in either case.
agreed,a lot of speculation
if i remember correctly,even kreia says "maybe he didn't fall,maybe he was just being true to himself" even her hesitates in making that afirmation...

hummm... the emperor didn't want to show himself and lead a direct assault on the republic and the jedi at full strength, and he needed Revan to be an actual treat and wreak havok in republic space, not a weekend distraction to the jedi council.

maybe he calculated both would end up destroyed,or close to that...
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:45 PM   #28
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So what exactly is the big complaint here?

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Old 06-24-2010, 05:12 PM   #29
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:26 PM   #30
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This.

Bioware wasn't all bad, but they weren't the best either. But, they were the ones who created Kotor, so we should be happy that they even decided to make that story, and that Obsidian continued it in a more realistic way. I really don't see the point moaning about how TSL is being retconned by TOR, since it isn't up to us to determine canon. I do, however, despise how they added to Revan's story, giving him the classic evil Sith background. For once, Star Wars made sense in TSL. And so many people "worshipped" Revan because he was a mystery, a person who had a sense of individuality rather than a collective mind like the Jedi and the Sith both. He probably was one of the best minds in of his time.

Think about it, he knew what sacrifices had to be made for the future, he outwitted and outperformed the Mandalorians, who were known to be the one of the best fighting forces in the galaxy. (Plus TSL made the Mandalorians seem less like mindless brutes). Then, at Malachor, Revan defeated the Mandalorians in one swift move, and sacrificed those men who were not loyal to Revan. He then converted all those people to his cause.

I liked it better when Revan was his own master, when he wasn't influenced by some sith master. But Bioware had to ruin it for us, which also ruins some of Kotor. If they were on a mission to find the Star maps, then why was it said Revan and Malak searched for them during the Mandalorian Wars? *sigh* I guess things have to be ruined for certain games.

Anyway, Bioware is a good company, but they have LucasArts which are making the decisions. So really, we should be blaming LucasArts for ruining everything.
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:52 PM   #31
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I really don't see the point moaning about how TSL is being retconned by TOR, since it isn't up to us to determine canon. I do, however, despise how they added to Revan's story, giving him the classic evil Sith background.
So you are complaining that they added to the story? I'm not sure that the retcons are that you are referring to. As some others have said, at first glance things seem to fit together.

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Old 06-24-2010, 05:40 PM   #32
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Why is LucasArts trying to erase the story of THE SITH LORDS and pretend that its events never happened (you know, with Kreia, the Exile, and so on)?
First of all, they aren't.

Second, we need a master thread stickied for this topic somewhere.


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Old 06-24-2010, 10:55 PM   #33
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I hope they retcon Jar-Jar into the story, <3 Jar-Jar~~


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Old 06-24-2010, 11:01 PM   #34
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Old 06-25-2010, 01:21 AM   #35
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What's the opposite of <3?
... </3 .... *sigh*


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Old 06-25-2010, 05:27 AM   #36
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What's interesting to me is that the title of Sith Emperor seems to have been held by one person for several hundred years (unless I'm poorly informed), meaning the Sith Emperor who turned Revan and Malak is the same person leading the Sith Empire in TOR. It's Star Wars, so there are several possible explanations for this, but wouldn't it be fun if he turned out to be Vandar Tokare who didn't really die on Katarr (after all, that particular species does have the necessary lifespan)?

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Old 06-25-2010, 11:11 AM   #37
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but wouldn't it be fun if he turned out to be Vandar Tokare who didn't really die on Katarr (after all, that particular species does have the necessary lifespan)?
That would make me cry.

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Old 06-25-2010, 03:05 PM   #38
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TSL didn't sell as well and was less popular critically than KotOR. Which may be part of the reason that LA and Bio have rather glossed over it.

What's more interesting is why Bioware have glossed over the Mandalorian Wars in their video-promo-things, which was their own invention. Maybe they're playing with unreliable narrators, but if so it's something of a deviation from type for them.

I'm not a fan of mandalorians, but retconning the Mando Wars just doesn't seem to make much sense.



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Old 06-26-2010, 12:03 PM   #39
mstr kenobi
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As it is set now, he, the emperor, looks quite stupid...

Send someone as your vanguard with no follow up plan...
Hand your best weapon to the "new guy"...

They really have 300 years of explaining to do...
The best thing that occurs me,is that somehow Revan and the exile succeded in slowing down his plans.
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:07 PM   #40
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Well, if the republic still is a problem for the Siths, after 300 years of planning and preparation(The battle of alderaan was 28 years before the attack on Coruscant, so 28 years of War without winning...), I'm wondering what would happen if revan haven't been betrayed by Malak, he would have a HUGE armada, with the Star Forge, and the Siths would be 300 years unprepared, i can't figure at which point they were at that moment, if they have a hard time after the 300 years...

So, maybe without Malak, Revan could have kick the emperor's ass before he prepare all his Sith Armada.


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