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Old 07-02-2010, 05:50 PM   #1
mimartin
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America's Independence Day

Well we are coming up on the 4th of July the day America celebrates its independence from the King of Great Britain. What I want to know is what American stands for to you? I would like to do this without going into partisan politics and flamebait. The question is open to anyone from anywhere (not just Americans).

While most of you know my views and lack of respect for FoxNews and FoxNews.com, I do think FoxNews and Jane H Cook in particular have made a valid point in saying everyone (American) should read the Declaration of Independence (I found her story about the Patent Office and the Declaration of Independence interesting).

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IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
To me America is an idea, an idea that strives to be better than what it actually is or what it can be. It knows these ideas are ideological and beyond its capacity, but it is undeterred. It knows others may take the easier road, but that does not persuade it from taking the right road.

We don’t always live up to my idea of America, but that does not deter my love for my country and the ideas that formed its beginning.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The fourth of July also happens to mark the day two founding fathers and former president died in 1826. Guess who they are and win a cupie doll.

Happy Independence Day to you all.



Last edited by mimartin; 07-05-2010 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:58 PM   #2
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To me, America is about having the freedom and rights our ancestors didn't have in their places of origin.
Freedom of speech, right to bear arms, trial by jury, all of our constitutional rights. In my opinion, to take away any of the rights and freedoms that have been rightfully ours since the beginning of this nation, would take away that which makes us American.

God bless good 'ole 'Merica.

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Old 07-02-2010, 07:08 PM   #3
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I definitely agree with your sentiments Mimartin. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world. To some that may seem like an arrogant view, but to me because of our freedoms, because of our ideals, because we are what we are I love this country and what it stands for which I feel should be what our fathers stood for which I think is summed up in that passage from the Declaration of Independence. Admittedly we get away from it more than I would like, and that is unfortunate. I think that everyone reading the declaration is an excellent idea because there are far too many that don't remember where this country came from.

I believe in it enough to spend time defending it as an active duty Sailor in the U.S. Navy and while I'm no longer active, given the choice I would do it all over again.


"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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Old 07-02-2010, 07:14 PM   #4
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To me, America is about having the freedom and rights our ancestors didn't have in their places of origin.
Freedom of speech, right to bear arms, trial by jury, all of our constitutional rights. In my opinion, to take away any of the rights and freedoms that have been rightfully ours since the beginning of this nation, would take away that which makes us American.

God bless good 'ole 'Merica.
I agree too =)

Well, not totally, i'm just not agree with the bear of weapons, but whatever
and some times this freedom gets a little unfair (like the medical insurances), but that's the present, so it doesn't matter while talking about the Independence Day.

And well, at the same time I guess all the independence days are fight for one's rights and freedoms, whatever what happens after it, the independence will always be in my mind a fight for justice.


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Old 07-02-2010, 07:55 PM   #5
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I would say that for the most part (hell, nothing's perfect) America stands for a positive set of ideals. In some ways the most important of which may be that the govt is the servant of the people, not the other way around. Hopefully that will always remain true and that the politicians and bureaucrats will ever remember they serve at our discretion and leisure.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

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Old 07-02-2010, 08:28 PM   #6
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Hopefully that will always remain true and that the politicians and bureaucrats will ever remember they serve at our discretion and leisure.
Unfortunately I think that too many of them have already forgotten, and perhaps they need to read the Declaration as well.


"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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Old 07-02-2010, 08:32 PM   #7
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Frankly, given their light or complete disregard for the Constitution, I doubt it'd matter to them.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 07-02-2010, 08:42 PM   #8
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America to me is about being free. Free from oppression, and tyranny. When you look at the "Bill of rights" you see means to protect the liberties that the nation was founded on. It is an ideal. A lofty goal to be free.

Not saying we're the best. Just the one that's best for me.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 07-02-2010, 09:22 PM   #9
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What nobody wants the cupie doll?


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Old 07-02-2010, 09:24 PM   #10
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What nobody wants the cupie doll?
Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died July 4, 1826.


"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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Old 07-02-2010, 09:37 PM   #11
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Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died July 4, 1826.
Not just any cupie doll, but a chocolate cupie doll. Warning keep it away from Lynk, should be safe he doesn't like Kavars.



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Old 07-02-2010, 09:49 PM   #12
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Awww...I feel special...and Mongo like chocolate...nom nom nom


"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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Old 07-04-2010, 02:37 AM   #13
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In the spirit of being an American, I and a few good friends are going to the range to go sight in a few rifles, then go to the park to grill burgers, drink beer, and watch fireworks. Then probably go to the bars.

Eff yea. Happy Independence Day to all fellow Americans!


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Old 07-04-2010, 11:28 AM   #14
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To me, America stands for greatness, triumph, and hope. Greatness because America is one of the most powerful nations in the World. Triumph, because there haven't been many wars we lost. And hope, because there wasn't a big chance we would win our freedom from Great Britain during the Revolution, if England had focused all of its mllitary might on us, we would have been crushed, thank goodness they were colonizing India and Africa too because they had enemies there as well. It was all in God's plan that this great nation was born.




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Old 07-04-2010, 01:05 PM   #15
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if England had focused all of its mllitary might on us, we would have been crushed, thank goodness they were colonizing India and Africa too because they had enemies there as well.
Yes well, they had enemies there because they were colonizing the places, not the other way round. Only America colonizes the places where they have enemies.

Excuse me while I get the **** out of this thread now.

>_>


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:58 PM   #16
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It was all in God's plan that this great nation was born.
Disturbing.

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Old 07-04-2010, 02:13 PM   #17
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America never colonized any other place save Hawaii. But I can understand why you may think that.




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Old 07-04-2010, 02:23 PM   #18
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America never colonized any other place save Hawaii. But I can understand why you may think that.
So, you mean we didn't colonize Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, and the Phillipines?


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Old 07-04-2010, 02:28 PM   #19
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I wouldn't call that colonizing, I would call that capturing from Europeans. Puerto Rico was Spanish, Virgin Islands were English and Portuguese, and the Phillipines were also Spanish. Hawaii was the only classic colonization, send Explorers to scout around until they discover natives, send armies over to conquer, build towns and appoint officials. Yes the other places were conquered by the US, but they were all previously colonized by other nations.




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Old 07-04-2010, 02:33 PM   #20
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I wouldn't call that colonizing, I would call that capturing from Europeans. Puerto Rico was Spanish, Virgin Islands were English and Portuguese, and the Phillipines were also Spanish. Hawaii was the only classic colonization, send Explorers to scout around until they discover natives, send armies over to conquer, build towns and appoint officials. Yes the other places were conquered by the US, but they were all previously colonized by other nations.
Yes well, the colonies the Brits and other Europeans got their measly hands on happened to be previously colonized by other nations as well... colonized for roughly 10,000 years before them. Colonization is colonization.


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Old 07-04-2010, 02:36 PM   #21
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My definition of Colonization would be any advanced Empire looking to expand due to capitalistic reasons an building those cities overwherever and transporting the mula back to the motherland. I would hardly consider BC era Native Americans building cities capitalism.




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Old 07-04-2010, 02:42 PM   #22
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My definition of Colonization would be any advanced Empire looking to expand due to capitalistic reasons an building those cities overwherever and transporting the mula back to the motherland. I would hardly consider BC era Native Americans building cities capitalism.
Colonisation has existed eons before capitalism ever did. Colonisation is when a certain people populate any given territory, regardless of whether it is previously occupied or not, whether it is for monetary reasons or otherwise.

How do you assume the Native Americans got where they did? Or the Roman, Viking, South Indians' efforts at colonization? And there is of course, the Anglo-Saxon and French incursions of Britannia that resulted in England.


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Old 07-04-2010, 02:51 PM   #23
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I would hardly consider BC era Native Americans building cities capitalism.
I don't mean to be rude, but I find that almost racist. Hawaii was a reasonably advanced country (considering its size) before it was annexed by the US.

They were hardly savages or 'BC era Native Americans'.






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Old 07-04-2010, 03:00 PM   #24
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On this day, the Fourth of July, I present Jackson Browne's "For America"...

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Old 07-04-2010, 03:16 PM   #25
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How is that racist? Though they weren't savages they weren't the most advanced peoples ever. I was actually born in Hawaii. I love kavars. Hehe




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Old 07-04-2010, 03:27 PM   #26
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How is that racist? Though they weren't savages they weren't the most advanced peoples ever. I was actually born in Hawaii. I love kavars. Hehe
It's 'racist' (although I think I may have used too strong a word) because you condemned them as 'BC era Native Americans', basically, stone throwing savages, when that just isn't true.

And not having technology does not mean that a people isn't advanced.

They may have not have been technologically advanced when the British first arrived on the islands, but over a century of exposure to Western ideas and cultures had made Hawaii technologically and idealistically comparable with many Western countries before it was overthrown and annexed.






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Old 07-04-2010, 03:38 PM   #27
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I guess you are right. As Americans, we should still give credit to the British for giving us their ideas.




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Old 07-04-2010, 03:52 PM   #28
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I guess you are right. As Americans, we should still give credit to the British for giving us their ideas.
You should reread the Declaration of Independence Te Darasuum Mandalor, the 13 colonies grievances were not with the people of Great Britain, but with King George III.

I also disagree with your assessment that being powerful makes the United States great. That kind of goes against the reasons for America’s independence, it isn’t power that makes one great, but how that power is used.


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:16 PM   #29
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I guess you are right. As Americans, we should still give credit to the British for giving us their ideas.
It was the Enlightenment philosophers who gave us our ideas. I believe Voltaire and Rousseau both gave the idea of freedom of speech and religion.


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:37 PM   #30
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It was the Enlightenment philosophers who gave us our ideas. I believe Voltaire and Rousseau both gave the idea of freedom of speech and religion.
Good ideas belong to everyone not the people of a particular country, but I don't suppose you've ever heard of John Locke, by any chance? Only a small personality, the father of Liberalism is all. Or, you know, Thomas Paine, one of your founding fathers.

Anyway, Happy Birthday, America. You may not always live up to your ideals but at least your heart is in the right place; don't let the idea of the land of the free die, will you?


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:42 PM   #31
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Good ideas belong to everyone not the people of a particular country, but I don't suppose you've ever heard of John Locke, by any chance? Only a small personality, the father of Liberalism is all. Or, you know, Thomas Paine, one of your founding fathers.
Actually, I have. I was just listing people off the top of my head.


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Old 07-05-2010, 07:12 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ping View Post
Actually, I have. I was just listing people off the top of my head.
Sorry, I've just reread my post and realised it could come across as a bit snarky. I didn't mean for that, only to say that Locke and Paine are pretty dashed important.


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:00 PM   #33
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It wasn't king George they had a problem with, that is a stereotype. Their real issue was with parliment.




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Old 07-04-2010, 04:19 PM   #34
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It wasn't king George they had a problem with, that is a stereotype. Their real issue was with parliment.
I'm pretty sure when the Founding Fathers said 'the King', they really meant 'the King'. That would be in line with all the primary historical sources I've ever seen on the Declaration of Independence, too.


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:02 PM   #35
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My god man, read. Reading is fun.

They had already rejected Parliament’s control a few years before 1976. How do you think they established the Continental Congress? Second, I do find it offensive that you call the Declaration of Independence a stereotype.



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Old 07-04-2010, 04:08 PM   #36
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Astor, I think the comment was because of Sabretooth was saying that the Hawiians had colonized it previously. That was pre-historic not expansionist colonization. Where PR/Guam/VI and Phillipines had already been colonized by other countries expanding their borders.


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:13 PM   #37
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Astor, I think the comment was because of Sabretooth was saying that the Hawiians had colonized it previously.
Actually, I was talking about Native Americans as in Native Americans who are the Aztecs, Inca, Iroquois etc., as had been specified before, and not the Hawaiians, whom I am not very familiar with.


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:32 PM   #38
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Saw this in the WSJ the other day: http://www.peggynoonan.com/

esp:
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Jefferson had, in his bill of particulars against the king, taken a moment to incriminate the English people themselves—"our British brethren"—for allowing their king and Parliament to send over to America not only "soldiers of our own blood" but "foreign Mercenaries to invade and destroy us." This, he said, was at the heart of the tragedy of separation. "These facts have given the last stab to agonizing affection, and manly spirit bids us renounce forever" our old friends and brothers. "We must endeavor to forget our former love for them."


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Old 07-04-2010, 04:47 PM   #39
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I never said the declaration is a stereotype, I said that it is stereotypical that people believe king George was their problem when it was mostly with parliment.BAnd ping, don't forget Montisquie and Locke.




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Old 07-04-2010, 04:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Te Darasuum Mandalor View Post
I never said the declaration is a stereotype, I said that it is stereotypical that people believe king George was their problem when it was mostly with parliment.
Then you are calling the Delaration of Independence a sterotype since it is clearly directed at King George III.

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The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.[/b]
Or just who do you think our Founding Fathers are referring to in the Declaration of Independence?



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