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Old 04-09-2011, 01:34 AM   #1
starkiller1157
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MMO VS Kotor

I've been reading through several of the threads and posts and found the different opinions interesting. I think each side has good points, which is why this came to me and the reason for me making this thread/post.

I have nothing against MMO's, I just personally have been a SP gamer, but I do play some games on multiplayer with my dad. Also, I'm not too fond of the idea of paying a monthly fee, but that's just me.

The creators of this game think an MMO is a great addition to the Star Wars Universe and I agree. It's nice to see Star Wars expanding in all areas, but here is my beef with it. It's a Kotor rip-off!

I am a huge fan of the Kotor games, even though TSL didn't live up to my and many others expectations. This MMO did not have to take place in the Kotor era, especially since the creators have some belief that the Kotor era looks like the clone wars era O_o I heard this in one of their video updates for the MMO.

You can tell by the trooper armor that it looks very much clone trooper like, which in itself takes away the feel for the Kotor or Old republic era. In the "Hope" cinematic, i thought I was watching something for the clone wars. The armor and the mentioning of Alderaan is too familiar and distracts me from getting into the feel of this game.

The creators decided to make an MMO and decided if they go a few hundred years after Kotor 2, us fans would just ignore this. I can't because in Kotor 2 the Jedi are suppose to be like gone, right? So what happened between then and when this MMO appears. In the "deceived" cinematic you can clearly see a temple full of jedi.(oh and I'm not blind to the fact that the Jedi temple and halls look exactly like the prequel films. Again, a rip-off. Do they not get that cultures change within a certain amount of generations. I mean look at how America has changed and the pilgrims came in like the 1700's. We changed in 300 years. The old republic is set thousands of years before the prequels.)

I and I'm sure many others, wouldn't have as big of a problem with this MMO if it wasn't set in the Kotor era. Fans are expecting better graphics and yet it is an MMO, they are limited as to what to use. They took a huge risk and will most likely lose a great deal of fans.


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Old 04-09-2011, 03:25 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
This MMO did not have to take place in the Kotor era,
There isn't a KotOR era, but there is an Old Republic Era, which has covered a far greater time span (25,000 - 1,000 years before the Battle of Yavin) before KotOR even existed.

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Originally Posted by Starkiller
I can't because in Kotor 2 the Jedi are suppose to be like gone, right? So what happened between then and when this MMO appears. In the "deceived" cinematic you can clearly see a temple full of jedi.
300 years and a galaxy full of trillions of life forms, meaning there are more than likely millions of potential force sensitive recruits. It's really not hard to rebuild when you've got that much to work with.

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Originally Posted by Starkiller
(oh and I'm not blind to the fact that the Jedi temple and halls look exactly like the prequel films.
I'm not sure why this a problem, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Starkiller
Do they not get that cultures change within a certain amount of generations. I mean look at how America has changed and the pilgrims came in like the 1700's. We changed in 300 years.
You can't really apply real world norms and realities to a fictional universe. Earth's own history and technology has changed so much in a few thousand years, but it doesn't mean that the Star Wars Universe should follow the same rule.

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Originally Posted by Starkiller
I and I'm sure many others, wouldn't have as big of a problem with this MMO if it wasn't set in the Kotor era.
Again, there is not a 'KotOR era'. And if there was, it likely wouldn't include this game in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Starkiller
Fans are expecting better graphics and yet it is an MMO, they are limited as to what to use.
I don't understand why graphics are even an issue, to be honest.






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Old 04-09-2011, 04:53 AM   #3
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I agree, the Clone Armor makes me more angry than a computer game should, and I lie in bed dreaming of KotOR III, But MMO's can be a hell of a lot of Fun, and I'm really pumped for this game. Pay monthly also can be a pain, but when you play 20+ hours a week for 5+ years, its actually cheap bud

Regarding the era and the Jedi resurgence. see Astors Posts.

Regarding the Jedi temple, It has been established long before the Old Republic was announced that the Film era Jedi temple was built in 4000 BBY, 350 years before the game, so the temple is fine

Graphics, yea I was skeptical to begin with, but an MMO on this scale, and the amount of different PC specs that will need to play it, couldn't realistically provide Mass effect standard Graphics.


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Old 04-09-2011, 07:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
This MMO did not have to take place in the Kotor era,

(...)

I and I'm sure many others, wouldn't have as big of a problem with this MMO if it wasn't set in the Kotor era.
What era would you suggest then? There is already 'Star Wars Galaxies' for the movie timeline, and aside from this, there no other timeframe as famous to the general audience as the KotOR timeline.



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Old 04-09-2011, 05:31 PM   #5
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There isn't a KotOR era, but there is an Old Republic Era, which has covered a far greater time span (25,000 - 1,000 years before the Battle of Yavin) before KotOR even existed.
So you saying only since the MMO its known as the Old republic era? What were fans calling it when the first Kotor games came out? Just the ancient times. Knights of the Old Republic is an era in itself.

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300 years and a galaxy full of trillions of life forms, meaning there are more than likely millions of potential force sensitive recruits. It's really not hard to rebuild when you've got that much to work with.
I guess I was expecting some epic reason and a story behind how they were all rebuilt. Not to mention in TSL it was clear most of the galaxy was glad the Jedi were gone. It would take longer then 300 years to rebuild, seek force-sensative people and come to a peace term with the Republic.




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I'm not sure why this a problem, exactly.
You're tell me they stuck with the same designs and technology for the next 2 or 3 thousand years O_o Coruscant and the Jedi temple look exactly as they do in the films. Cultures change their designs within hundreds of years. And to be honest I was unimpressed in Kotor 1 when they meantion the real Jedi council was on Coruscant. I'd be been nice if they changed the history instead of always being a particular way for thousands of years.




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You can't really apply real world norms and realities to a fictional universe. Earth's own history and technology has changed so much in a few thousand years, but it doesn't mean that the Star Wars Universe should follow the same rule.
It's the point of fiction to be as realistic as possible??? You can still create fictional universes based of a realistics in our own world and still make it an exciting story.


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Originally Posted by adamqd View Post
I agree, the Clone Armor makes me more angry than a computer game should, and I lie in bed dreaming of KotOR III, But MMO's can be a hell of a lot of Fun, and I'm really pumped for this game. Pay monthly also can be a pain, but when you play 20+ hours a week for 5+ years, its actually cheap bud
Well, when you put it that way, I guess its not as expensive.


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What era would you suggest then? There is already 'Star Wars Galaxies' for the movie timeline, and aside from this, there no other timeframe as famous to the general audience as the KotOR timeline.
They could done the Era after Return of the Jedi where it would make more sense. About re-establishing the Jedi Order and the rise of the Sith again.

Or they could of stayed in the era or made it longer then 300 years between the Kotor. It's a Kotor rip-off as far as I'm concerned. If they weren't going to continue the storyline of the previous games I see no point in setting it so close to it.


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Old 04-09-2011, 05:47 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
So you saying only since the MMO its known as the Old republic era? What were fans calling it when the first Kotor games came out? Just the ancient times. Knights of the Old Republic is an era in itself.
If KotOR is an era in itself, then it would only cover the comics and the two games, and nothing beyond that.

And even then, it's part of the Old Republic Era, which had been the name for the time period even before KotOR was released.

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Originally Posted by starkiller1157
It would take longer then 300 years to rebuild, seek force-sensative people and come to a peace term with the Republic.
Why, exactly?

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Originally Posted by starkiller1157
You're tell me they stuck with the same designs and technology for the next 2 or 3 thousand years O_o Coruscant and the Jedi temple look exactly as they do in the films. Cultures change their designs within hundreds of years.
Cultures might change things after a few hundred years, but for something as important, iconic and revered as the Jedi Temple they might not.

I haven't see the Egyptians periodically redesign the Pyramids, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157
And to be honest I was unimpressed in Kotor 1 when they meantion the real Jedi council was on Coruscant. I'd be been nice if they changed the history instead of always being a particular way for thousands of years.
Like it or not, Coruscant is the centre of the Republic. It makes sense that the High Council would locate themselves close to the seat of Galactic power so that they can better serve it.


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Originally Posted by starkiller1157
It's the point of fiction to be as realistic as possible??? You can still create fictional universes based of a realistics in our own world and still make it an exciting story.
Star Wars is so unrealistic compared to our own universe it doesn't make sense that it must take cues from our own history.






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Old 04-09-2011, 05:57 PM   #7
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If KotOR is an era in itself, then it would only cover the comics and the two games, and nothing beyond that.

And even then, it's part of the Old Republic Era, which had been the name for the time period even before KotOR was released.
They're only now calling it the Old Republic Era, so whatever.


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Why, exactly?.
Because we're dealing with an entire galaxy here. Negotiations between a few countries in our own world are much easier then hundreds of thousands of planets. The creators aren't taking in the political factor.


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I haven't see the Egyptians periodically redesign the Pyramids, after all.
Actually there is the Old, Middle and New Kingdom, culture ways and designs did change. I've done plenty of Egyption research most of my life. You can see the various designs in temple building throughout their reign.


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Star Wars is so unrealistic compared to our own universe it doesn't make sense that it must take cues from our own history.
Then how exactly do people get ideas for their fictional worlds if not taking examples from our own??? Star Wars is very much like our own, its just colored differently and set in a futuristic time. You have to look past these to see that.


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Old 04-09-2011, 05:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
They could done the Era after Return of the Jedi where it would make more sense.
Sense to whom? The audience that will keep such game alive? I don't think so. The KotOR timeline is fairly known to non-Star Wars fans, due to the sucess of both KotOR games. The same can't be said about post-RotJ.

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Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
Or they could of stayed in the era or made it longer then 300 years between the Kotor.
And how would that be different from what it is now?

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It's a Kotor rip-off as far as I'm concerned.
No, it's not. You should review that term.

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Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
If they weren't going to continue the storyline of the previous games I see no point in setting it so close to it.
Not only they are continuing the story of both games, but they are expanding it, too.



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Old 05-25-2011, 02:37 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by starkiller1157
The old republic isn't the only familiar era. It's Star Wars. People will accept it no matter what time it takes place.
I beg to differ, on the accepting any era remark. The Old Republic era was hugely successful, and still has a strong following today. Tons of people still play the KOTOR games, despite them being old as Father Time now. TOR is probably the best time frame right now, for many reasons, for BioWare to fit their game into.
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Originally Posted by starkiller1157
O_o Dude, lighten up. I'm just expressing my thoughts, its just a game.
Totally cool. And we're just expressing ours.
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Originally Posted by starkiller1157
Because this MMO does not look or give the feel to the Kotor Era. I respect you opinino to say it expands it, but I disagree. You shouldn't start a series and after getting fans into the characters jump far enough to where they are all dead and you expect the fans to just go "oh well."
But they aren't- BioWare has already stated they intend to tie up the loose ends from the KOTOR games. Characters who do NOT make a cameo in the game will still have mentions. The Revan story will come to a close, finally. It's already confirmed the galaxy's most favorite meatbag killer will be in the game. What more do you want?
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157
So you saying only since the MMO its known as the Old republic era? What were fans calling it when the first Kotor games came out? Just the ancient times. Knights of the Old Republic is an era in itself.
Erm... Knights of THE OLD REPUBLIC. A tad self-evident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157
And to be honest I was unimpressed in Kotor 1 when they meantion the real Jedi council was on Coruscant. I'd be been nice if they changed the history instead of always being a particular way for thousands of years.
Then you're in LUCK! The Council is NOT on Coruscant. It' resides on Tython now- the ancient homeworld of the Jedi. The planet itself is a proving ground- wild and untamed, with danger and beauty lurking around every corner. It is a nice departure from the regular scene of Coruscant for the Jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157
They could done the Era after Return of the Jedi where it would make more sense. About re-establishing the Jedi Order and the rise of the Sith again.

Or they could of stayed in the era or made it longer then 300 years between the Kotor. It's a Kotor rip-off as far as I'm concerned. If they weren't going to continue the storyline of the previous games I see no point in setting it so close to it.
I consider myself an avid Star Wars fan- but I know jack about anything after ROTJ. BioWare knows this.

In press releases asking why the game was to be set in such an unfamiliar timeframe, and long before the movies, BioWare said they chose the time of The Old Republic, because it allowed them greater creative bounds, and to develop a history for an era of Star Wars we know little about. I think it's a beautiful time frame for them to choose.

To follow up on the rip-off remark. Yes! You're catching on! This IS a rip-off, of sorts. It's rips off the KOTOR games, sort of, because it CONTINUES them Instead of taking us in the linear path of Revan or the Exile, BioWare has chosen to allow all of us to be iconic characters in the Old Republic time line. While they tie up the loose ends, we still have the ability to develop our own story. I honestly do not think you're grasping the fact this is an MMO, with different concepts. A particular perspective, like playing as Revan or the Exile, would not fit in an MMO.

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Old 04-09-2011, 06:10 PM   #10
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Sense to whom? The audience that will keep such game alive? I don't think so. The KotOR timeline is fairly known to non-Star Wars fans, due to the sucess of both KotOR games. The same can't be said about post-RotJ.
That's what I'm getting at. They only chose the era because the Kotor games were successful. They aren't in it for what's best for Star Wars.


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And how would that be different from what it is now?
It would be easier for me to accept if it was set at least a thousand years instead of a just a few hundred. It's too close to the second Kotor game. Too much is happening in too little of time, IMO.


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No, it's not. You should review that term.
I'm not allowed to have an opinion???

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Not only they are continuing the story of both games, but they are expanding it, too.
Realisticly, I'm not going to continue a story if I find out all my favorite characters in the previous story/game are dead or have been killed off. They should of finished what they started with a 3rd and final game then set the MMO at least a thousand years later. Or at least give the 3rd a better ending to connect to the MMO.


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Old 04-09-2011, 06:19 PM   #11
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That's what I'm getting at. They only chose the era because the Kotor games were successful. They aren't in it for what's best for Star Wars.
Since when one thing is against the other? They chose this era because it's familiar to the general public. Why do you say it's not the best for Star Wars?

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It would be easier for me to accept if it was set at least a thousand years instead of a just a few hundred. It's too close to the second Kotor game. Too much is happening in too little of time, IMO.
I fail to see how 300 years is too close to TSL. Specially when TSL is only 5 years apart from KotOR.

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I'm not allowed to have an opinion???
Don't use straw men against me, Mr.

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Realisticly, I'm not going to continue a story if I find out all my favorite characters in the previous story/game are dead or have been killed off.
Yet, you seemed to prefer that this game was set a thousand years or more from KotOR.



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Old 04-09-2011, 06:29 PM   #12
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Since when one thing is against the other? They chose this era because it's familiar to the general public. Why do you say it's not the best for Star Wars?
The old republic isn't the only familiar era. It's Star Wars. People will accept it no matter what time it takes place.


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I fail to see how 300 years is too close to TSL. Specially when TSL is only 5 years apart from KotOR.
As I said above, I don't believe the Jedi could rebuild and be as abondant as the cinematics showed and in peace with the Republic. It's going to take time for the republic and the rest of the non-force users of the galaxy to accept the Jedi after dealing with Darth Revan, Malik and the Jedi Civil War. A a cult group came into my country and caused havic and hard ways to live I'd be pissed for a long time and express the anger from generation to generation.


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Don't use straw men against me, Mr.
O_o Dude, lighten up. I'm just expressing my thoughts, its just a game.


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Yet, you seemed to prefer that this game was set a thousand years or more from KotOR.
Because this MMO does not look or give the feel to the Kotor Era. I respect you opinino to say it expands it, but I disagree. You shouldn't start a series and after getting fans into the characters jump far enough to where they are all dead and you expect the fans to just go "oh well."


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Old 04-09-2011, 06:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starkiller1157 View Post
The old republic isn't the only familiar era. It's Star Wars. People will accept it no matter what time it takes place.
That doesn't explain your comment about TOR not being what's best for Star Wars, whatever you seem to think that is.



Quote:
As I said above, I don't believe the Jedi could rebuild and be as abondant as the cinematics showed and in peace with the Republic. It's going to take time for the republic and the rest of the non-force users of the galaxy to accept the Jedi after dealing with Darth Revan, Malik and the Jedi Civil War. A a cult group came into my country and caused havic and hard ways to live I'd be pissed for a long time and express the anger from generation to generation.
Except within the span of the films and the New Republic era, the Jedi Order has been wiped out and rebuilt in a matter of decades, not centuries.

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Old 04-09-2011, 06:23 PM   #14
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They're only now calling it the Old Republic Era, so whatever.
Right, so because the term is being used now, it must mean it's a rip off of KotOR?

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Because we're dealing with an entire galaxy here. Negotiations between a few countries in our own world are much easier then hundreds of thousands of planets. The creators aren't taking in the political factor.
Even then there's no reason why the Jedi Order couldn't have rebuilt itself within that time frame.

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That's what I'm getting at. They only chose the era because the Kotor games were successful. They aren't in it for what's best for Star Wars.
It's a little of both, really. By setting it a few hundred years after KotOR they appeal to fans of that series, but it wouldn't matter what period they had chosen - if you slap 'Star Wars' on your product it will still sell by the shed load.






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Old 04-09-2011, 07:36 PM   #15
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That's what I'm getting at. They only chose the era because the Kotor games were successful.
It's a business. If they want to be a successful business, they need to make money. The KOTOR games were successful, so building on that success makes complete sense to me.
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They aren't in it for what's best for Star Wars.
a. Who determines what's "best" for Star Wars? You? Me? George Lucas?

b. How do you know it's not what's "best" for Star Wars?

c. Of course they're not in it for the altruistic "what's best for Star Wars". They're in it to make money, because they are a business.


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Old 04-23-2011, 06:50 AM   #16
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:16 PM   #17
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I agree with the OP but in terms of technology and architecture, rather than the state of the Jedi Order.

I find it somewhat ridiculous that the entire galaxy can drastically change its look in 20 and 40 years (PT-OT; TotJ-KotOR). And then, in 300 years, change its look again (KotOR-TOR), and then presumably keep that same look for another 3,600 years. (TOR-PT).



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Old 06-09-2011, 02:36 AM   #18
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The Old Republic era went from about 25000 BBY to around 1000 BBY. KotOR didn't invent the era. Though they did change it a bit as well... Now, if you're talking about the actual KotOR era, it's technically not the KotOR era as it is 300 years after the games...

300 years is a long time to still hate a group of people. Unless you still hate Germans, Japanese, and Itallians, it took significantly less time for a real world example of people getting over past differences.

Technology... Well you do have technological plateaus. Cars still function pretty much the same way they have for a hundred years. Just faster and easier to operate. Not to mention when you have multiple cultures mixing, together, things may move fast, or just stagnate. Not to mention you have a Galactic government, so I'm pretty sure you have a galactic safety requirements comittee... Then there's the Galactic EPA... Or the Galactic Transportation Safety Administration, Galactic Historical Preservation Society?

At any rate, The reason things may not have changed all that much could simply be that they had no reason to change. I mean they already have flying cars, and faster than light travel... How much further do they need to go?


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Old 06-09-2011, 08:34 AM   #19
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300 years is a long time to still hate a group of people. Unless you still hate Germans, Japanese, and Itallians, it took significantly less time for a real world example of people getting over past differences.
The Turkey-Greek conflict is an example of how people can still hate (although maybe at this point 'hate' may be a big word) another people after centuries of conflict, in this case even dating back (this is debatable) to the Greek-Persian conflict (debatable first and foremost because Turks of course never were Persians).

I'd like to respond to the Jedi temple on Coruscant discussion. Firstly, Coruscant as center of the galaxy is the home of trillions of people and is the political center of the Galactic Republic. That the Jedi have had their High Council there for the greater part of its history is, in my opinion, foremost a political statement: it means the Jedi are working closely with the Republic and are one of its most important organizations for defending the peace. It's also a practical issue: the Jedi Temple containing the High Council should be a bastion and be a key point in the network of Jedi settlements, among other things. But that doesn't mean Coruscant was the center of Jedi politics throughout millennia. I mean, TOR already established Tython as the center (and had been the first center of the Jedi Order), and then there's Ossus who took over as center once or twice.

I must agree with the OP regarding the choice of the era for this MMO, however. There are so many empty spaces in SW history that could be filled with a Jedi/Sith conflict and it's obvious the only reason they chose the timeframe of TOR was to get the maximum out of a link with KotOR without it being an obstruction to create an entirely new conflict. A link they make unbelievable by pretty much filling it with prequel material. A SW MMO should never have to tie loose ends of a singleplayer campaign, anyway, because in a better world, another singleplayer game would finish the story in the right manner.

The greatness of the KotOR games was for a great part made by severing ties with the movies. Yes, themes were familiar and there were some obvious references, but it didn't need Clone Armor or the Darth Vader music to make it recognizable. TOR, on the other hand, is clinging to every familiar part of Star Wars, which makes it more of a melting pot of different eras than something original and fresh. In my opinion, it's trying too hard.

My apologies for opening old wounds, guys. A recent KotOR III article did the same to me, so I couldn't help myself. And don't get me wrong, still looking forward to TOR. But it'll never be that special as the experience I had with KotOR and TSL.


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Old 06-09-2011, 02:33 PM   #20
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And my point was that 300 years is a long time for a society as a whole to still hate a group(without reason, because I don't think there's enough time in the galaxy for society to start liking the KKK, but then their whole message is hate). Your analogy is closer to the Jedi/Sith hate as opposed to the galaxy wide hate.

I kinda wished they had just moved it closer to the movie timeline. But there's the Darth Bane novels in there... But, this era allows for plenty of Sith and Jedi. Post Bane, you have the rule of two.

I kinda have to agree on the armor. But it's recognizable. And honestly armor style might stay similar. What changes are materials. Dragon Skin™ looks similar to certain scale mail armor, but the materials are WAY different.

And Militades, I'm pretty sure that most people would rather have had KotOR 3 than the MMO, myself included(actually I kinda wish we had both haha). I just prefer lemonade to lemons


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