lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: My Point on JK2 MP Saber Combat
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 05-16-2002, 10:04 AM   #1
Flashblade
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 79
My Point on JK2 MP Saber Combat

Well I compare saber battles pre and post patch and there has not much changed at all. The game is still pretty much air slashing with slightly more parries and blocks. There are still many ppl out there making the same combination of moves again and again and again. Sometimes I wonder if these guys are fighting me or the air. They expect from me that I step in their circle of moves but I won't do so. One time there was this guy who exactly fits into this picture. He was "performing" in heavy stance making a couple of slashes than a dfa and again and again and again. Is this sword fighting of any kind? On the other hand are the guys who think spinning like a whirlwind is the answer without even having their enemy in range. Is this sword fighting of any kind? I do not think so. In the ordinary fight ppl are running around like mad trying to get a hit with the sabers rarely connecting. Why is this not sword fighting of any kind?? Because in sword fight nobody is running. I NEVER EVER saw a sword fight where ppl where running around like this! Why is this so? You can't have a sword fight running around like this not even to mention you would be out of breath pretty soon.

I don't know whether you ever tried to have a battle while only walking. I know it feels to relaxed but you will notice one thing. This battle will be over very quick. The reason for that is there is not enough parrying while swinging. Now ppl will scream NO NOT EVEN MORE PARRYING it is allready to much. This is not the case if you try to have this more realistic walking battle. In SP you have this command g_sabermovespeed which slows you down while you are swinging your saber. I can't understand while it isn't even in Multiplayer as an option. If set to 0.5 it feels right. That way some ppl could have nearly realistic saber fights while there could be this wannabe battles as well. When I say nearly realistic I mean that there are still some things missing. As I allready said there would be even more parries needed than it is now the case because still to many swings go through. Think about it a Jedi is not killed bye 4 to 5 slashes. One error can allready mean his death so this should be the same thing in JK2.

A Jedi powered by the force can fight a long time but at one point the battle is starting to wear him out. The moment this happens the posibility of an error rises. That is one thing totally missing in JK2. Stamina should be a factor. Somebody who swings like mad is wearing out much quicker than somebody who fights with more control over his moves. If Stamina would be in this game we really could have epic saber battles. Let me explain better what I want to say by that.

At the beginning of the duel Stamina is 100% so blocks and swings are fast. At this point blocks are 100% . During the battle stamina drops and when reaching a set percentage blocks and swings become slower the likeness of an error increases. When one of the opponents is exhausted he is really slow and blocking drops even more. This is the moment the fatal blow becomes very likely. Remember: Why has Luke lost his Hand? It was because he was to exhausted to counter any of Vaders blows effectively. Why does the same thing happen to Vader on the Death Star? Because this time he was to exhausted to parry the blows. Why was Qui Gon killed by Maul? He was exhausted as well. (Hmm goes not for Darth Maul though. I will never understand why he showed not any reaction when Obi-Wan jumped over him!)

You could even make the stamina adjustable so that you could have quick battles as well which most ppl seem to prefer. Blocking would cost Stamina as well so that nobody could just stand there and let his opponent attack keeping his Stamina that way. By that way the damage a Saber is inflicting could be the damage of a Lightsaber again.

On the other hand there is something that need to be removed. I talk about the so called "finishing moves". I mean what the hell is that. It is the most unrealistic thing in JK2 Saber battles I can think of. It is not the move that needs to be removed though it is what it is capable of. Think of two ppl fighting with swords or sabers. One performs one of those finishing moves and the other blocks the move the following dialog would start:

Hey what have you done, you can't just block that move!!

Um huh why can't I ???

It is a finishing move it is UNBLOCKABLE you have to let this go through!!!!

Ah I see I will remember that the next time you use it.

This sounds funny doesn't it? Sure because every swing or stab can be blocked with a respective counter. For me that is the way it should be in JK2 too!

Another thing that bugs me is the heavy stance. Sorry ppl but it is senseless. Why should a slow move with not much power behind it (you need power to be quick not to be slow) cause so much damage or knock of the defense like that. It makes no sense in reality it would be weak and easy to block. IMO stances should very more by style and less by speed.

Another thing is why should my defence vary with the stance I use. Can't I put as much power in a block as I want to in every stance??

When you are being pushed or pulled and lie on the ground you are completely defenseless. You sure should be defenseless for a brief moment but after that you should be able to block swings with a penalty. Since you have the sword in hand this seems logic to me. One thing I hated most in SP was when Desann threw me somewhere and than throwing the saber while I was about to stand up. I should be able to either 1) block that saber or 2) stand up after that saber flow back to his hand. Standing up by choice seems for me more appropriate as standing up automatic as well. The defense on ground could be even combined with stamina. If you are exhausted you would be knocked of control longer while you where almost back to it in an instant with stamina close to 100%. (By control I mean the ability to defend yourself while lying)

What I really would like to see is that per chance your saber is being knocked of your hand when thrown somewhere. Would things make even more realistic.

I like the change to Forcegrip in the patch. You shouldn't be able to run around so easily while you are gripping somebody like this. I would even take the next step and say make it unavailable. The reason for that is that I don't think it can be used on Jedi. Its the same as with mind trick it only works on non forcesensitive individuals. Remember the movies. Vader uses it once on the Death Star against this officer in ANH. He uses it again to kill Admiral Needa and the other Star Destroyer Captain in Empire. You never see it being used on a Jedi. On the other hand grip is quite cool I admit so there would be much complaining if it would be removed.

Talking about force use. I think it is MUCH to easy to use the force during a saber battle. The Jedi allready uses the force for his saber so it should be more difficult to be pulled of during saber fighting. In the middle of a fight you should be limited to push and pull with a big delay. To pull of high power forces you should even have to part some time from your opponent (high power= heal, absorb, drain, lightning etc.) . Again I refer to the movies here. During a saber battle the only thing ever used was push. In the scene Vader threw all the stuff at Luke they weren't engaged.

To sum up what I would like to see:

include an option for g_sabermovespeed 0.5 in MP


Add Stamina to the game and make it adjustable

increase parrying and blocking even more (100% @ 100% Stamina)

get rid of "finishing move" being not blockable

get rid of the heavy stance it is senseless

defence should be always the same and not vary by stance

make style changes to eacht stance and don't change speed so much

add some defence capability while lying being influenced by stamina

let me stand up when I actually want to do it

add the possibility that per chance your saber is being knocked of when thrown

make the only forces usable during saber fighting push and pull with a high delay after us and make it so that you have to part for the use of high power forces with even more appropriate delay

I know it will never happen but that is what I would like to see in JK2 MP saber fighting. I know it will never happen but I wanted to share my thoughts with anyone who maybe thinks alike!
Flashblade is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-16-2002, 01:50 PM   #2
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
I agree....

When fighting, around 75% of all slashes are made in thin air, while not even being close to connecting. And that's 95% for you blue whirlwinders, you know who you are...

Why is this possible?
Because we have seemingly impossible hits connecting, and because people can backtrack and sidestep like a monkey on crack.

Because, as it is now, you haven't got any REAL control of parrying when your opponent engages you up close. Because you cannot be 100% sure of parrying when you are swinged at, naturally, you break off and run... Don't get me wrong, the new parrying system is FAR better than the last, but as it is now, it's still better not to be there in the first place when the blows start to fall. What do you do when a player comes whirlwinding with the fast stance towards you? I sure don't trust my parrying.

Part of this problem also comes from the players. Mindless blue "stancer's" whirlwinding around the map are silly. i can partly understand the "striking before you're even close to each other"-thing with the red stancer's, but doing it with blue is very, very, very lame. I will say it again to you f***tards: STRIKING WITH BLUE WHEN YOUR ENEMY ISN'T CLOSE IS LAME. You have NO chance of hitting him, and you look so foolish it isn't even funny. Click your attack button when you honestly think you at least have a chance of hitting. And don't say it's because of the "fear factor"... I am not afraid of your lame attempt at being funny by swinging in all directions when i'm miles away.
/end rant.

Your idea on stamina is good, but i think that with blocking costing stamina, you'd see player backtracking because it's better not to parry when you are swung at because it costs stamina.

Movement should be reduced though, and stamina helps here. Backtracking should be reduced SEVERELY; so many games gets this thing wrong. I think that someone found at that you move 46 km/h in halflife, whether backtracking or not.

"Special" moves should be changed or reduced.
I just saw a monstrous example of this: An idiot used the lunge ONLY in his duels... And i mean ONLY, this guy was spamming it like you've never seen it before... Raven, please make it so that you can't do that move over and over and over and over again. Add a timer or something similar, so you'll have to wait a bit till you can use it again.

I do understand those that would like more control in what they do, however. Hence i see these spamming morons more and more. Add more special moves("finishing moves"), but don't make them that "special". NO extra damage and NO extra chance of hitting, but just a larger repetoire of cool moves to choose from.

And lastly, get rid of blue stance and red stance. Blue stance is just too fast, you can't properly CONTROL where you are aiming and neither can the defender block properly, when all he sees is your flashing saber swinging all over the place.
Red stance is way too slow, you cannot convince me that someone would VOLUNTARILY strike THAT slow, it's utterly pathetic and would never happen. A red user would get completely butchered in a somewhat realistic saber duel.

Add the new STYLES of saberfighting like the topicstarter suggested, don't change the speed that much. Maybe one style would be slightly faster etc, but not to the extent we see it now.

As always, flame away...
C'jais is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-16-2002, 04:30 PM   #3
TexRoadkill
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: AZ
Posts: 35
I agree somewhat.

There definately is a lack of skill being employed by a lot of players but that is to be expected of any game.

The stances are fine. I use a lot of Red and employing the right timing is crucial. I dont see what's wrong with slower more powerfull moves. Every game needs some balance and if fast moves were just as powerfull than that's all anybody would use. That would get boring very fast. I can stand there in Red and let Blue attacks smack at me for awhile. Then I just step back and hack them down.

I would love to see stamina added or combined with the Force. Since part of a jedi's stamina and physical ability is in his control of the force it would make sense that all Special moves should drain the force also. Around 30-50% sounds right to me. That would prevent spammers from push/pulling and then using a special move over and over.
TexRoadkill is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-16-2002, 04:47 PM   #4
AV4T4R
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 35
Thumbs up

I TOTALLY AGREE

here is my opinion
dont do an additional bar, but use the stamina in the Force bar!
( after all if u are exausted, u have not enough power to launch a lightning or the opposite, that's way using the force or his own body in combact it's just a physical/psychical action , both linked togheter )

_run should consume force
_rolls should consume force
_swinging should consume force only if blocked but parries not, ( only if u block a red stance ) couse the player who RISK to block enemy swings obetain ad advantage vs the player who only run away escaping ( so blocking could be a realistic strategy 1) find a way to hit the enemy from close range 2) decreasing enemy stamina in combact



Great idea bro!

just if raven will not accept to do that, please organize to make a MOD, it should not be too much difficult!
AV4T4R is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-17-2002, 03:44 PM   #5
Flashblade
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 79
It's great to see that some ppl share ones opinion somewhat!! You brought things up I never even thought of so far!

Quote:
Originally posted by cjais
Your idea on stamina is good, but i think that with blocking costing stamina, you'd see player backtracking because it's better not to parry when you are swung at because it costs stamina.

Movement should be reduced though, and stamina helps here. Backtracking should be reduced SEVERELY; so many games gets this thing wrong. I think that someone found at that you move 46 km/h in halflife, whether backtracking or not.
Backtracking and strafing must be reduced in speed it is impossible to go in these directions the same speed as when runing forward! What I don't get is that in SP you are slower strafing and backtracking. All movements should cost stamina. Normal running around should not cost much though. Running speed being reduced when swinging IS allready part of the game. They only need to bring g_sabermovespeed over to Multiplayer thats it. Try it for yourselves in single player. Bring down the console type helpusobi 1 and after that g_sabermovespeed 0.5. Fight a reborn, shadow trooper, Tavion or Desann and you will see that you should only be this fast while swinging the saber.



Quote:
"Special" moves should be changed or reduced.
I just saw a monstrous example of this: An idiot used the lunge ONLY in his duels... And i mean ONLY, this guy was spamming it like you've never seen it before... Raven, please make it so that you can't do that move over and over and over and over again. Add a timer or something similar, so you'll have to wait a bit till you can use it again.
Yup the idea of an delay to that is great.

Quote:

I do understand those that would like more control in what they do, however. Hence i see these spamming morons more and more. Add more special moves("finishing moves"), but don't make them that "special". NO extra damage and NO extra chance of hitting, but just a larger repetoire of cool moves to choose from.
Ya put even more cool acrobatic moves into the game that is totally ok by me but take out this non-blockable crap. Extra damage is not needed. A light saber is always very lethal end of it.

Quote:

And lastly, get rid of blue stance and red stance. Blue stance is just too fast, you can't properly CONTROL where you are aiming and neither can the defender block properly, when all he sees is your flashing saber swinging all over the place.
Red stance is way too slow, you cannot convince me that someone would VOLUNTARILY strike THAT slow, it's utterly pathetic and would never happen. A red user would get completely butchered in a somewhat realistic saber duel.
I agree with you that "heavy" stance is pathetic. It is reversed logic as well! But I don't agree with you regarding the light stance. The speed feels right when I think of the fight against Maul (Had not the time to go watch Ep2 yet shame on me ). I think the right way would be to work on it to make it controlable. My idea would be to let it work on a 2 swing basis. Every time you attack with blue 2 swings are made automatically. By that I think you could have a control over the blue stance as you have with yellow!


Quote:
Originally posted by TexRoadkill
I agree somewhat.

The stances are fine. I use a lot of Red and employing the right timing is crucial. I dont see what's wrong with slower more powerfull moves. Every game needs some balance and if fast moves were just as powerfull than that's all anybody would use. That would get boring very fast. I can stand there in Red and let Blue attacks smack at me for awhile. Then I just step back and hack them down.
Sorry can't agree with you regarding heavy stance. It is senseless that a slow swing does more damage than a fast one where is obviously more power envolved and apart from that cjais is right a red stance user would be butchered in reality! I don't think it will be boring at all. It will be exciting I'm sure of that. Remember what I wrote when Stamina is 100% blocking is 100% as well. That way the kill will only become likely when Stamina is low. And when this is so there is no need for stances that do different damage anymore because the kill will always happen at the very end of the battle and very very seldom before that. I think this will make epic battles possible.

Quote:
I would love to see stamina added or combined with the Force. Since part of a jedi's stamina and physical ability is in his control of the force it would make sense that all Special moves should drain the force also. Around 30-50% sounds right to me. That would prevent spammers from push/pulling and then using a special move over and over.
Special moves draining force control sounds right to me too but it shouldn't be that much force control because a Jedi is so associated with his saber he doesn't need much force when using it in any way.

Quote:
Originally posted by AV4T4R
I TOTALLY AGREE

here is my opinion
dont do an additional bar, but use the stamina in the Force bar!
( after all if u are exausted, u have not enough power to launch a lightning or the opposite, that's way using the force or his own body in combact it's just a physical/psychical action , both linked togheter )

_run should consume force
_rolls should consume force
_swinging should consume force only if blocked but parries not, ( only if u block a red stance ) couse the player who RISK to block enemy swings obetain ad advantage vs the player who only run away escaping ( so blocking could be a realistic strategy 1) find a way to hit the enemy from close range 2) decreasing enemy stamina in combact
Now this is just a fantastic idea. You are to right of course. Stamina should have an effect on the force control. I personally refer to the blue bar as FCB = Force Control Bar. As we all know force is eternal and always there (expect there is one of those ysalamiri :P). So this bar only shows the ability of the Jedi to control the force. Back to your idea. I think stamina should be really added to the game though. That is because the force control shouldn't be effected from the start. It should have an effect lets say when stamina reaches 60 or 50%. At this point the max possible force control should drop. And when the Jedi is worn out he only has 1/4 of his max force control available til he found some time to relax. And what is more I think a third bar is handable. Run and Rolls and swinging should consume stamina and when reaching that specific point the stamina should have an effect on the force control droping it.

Quote:

just if raven will not accept to do that, please organize to make a MOD, it should not be too much difficult!
I really would love to see such a Mod coming. I'm sure it will hit the community as SBX did in JK but unfortunately I'm not the person with the needed ability to pull it of though

There are some points I would like to hear a comment for too. What do you guys think about being not totally defenseless while lying on the ground, standing up self controlled, saber being knocked of by chance when thrown, limited force use while saber fighting (only push and pull in midfight and high powered forces only when parting from the opponent)? Plz comment on this too!
Flashblade is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-17-2002, 04:11 PM   #6
dansolo
 
dansolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 57
Cool Guy Flashblade

Excellent post. This is probably one of the most constructive things I've seen on this board.

I actually sent Raven an email not too long ago, suggesting the same ideas in regards to special moves, stance differences, and blocking abilities. I never even thought of stamina. Good idea.

To me, stances should just contain different moves... not different speeds. What good does it do to wind up for a lightsaber swing? It has no physical weight...

Taking it to the next level, stances could be the difference between 1 saber / 2 sabers / and a dual bladed saber. Additionally, you would have to select your stance before you join the game. That is.. unless you pick up someone else's saber =)

Cheers,
-ds
dansolo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Game Discussion > Jedi Outcast > My Point on JK2 MP Saber Combat

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:57 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.