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Thread: I hate to bring this up again, but GunZ still oWn sabers. (I hope Raven reads this)
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Old 05-22-2002, 08:12 AM   #1
Ten Tigers
 
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Post I hate to bring this up again, but GunZ still oWn sabers. (I hope Raven reads this)

Im not just trolling here either. Hear me out....

While Raven has been busy reducing the damage on sabers and nerfing every Force Power in the game, gun damage still remains the same. So they reduced the number of shots per ammodump. Big whoop. This does not confront me. I am still every bit as lethal I just need more ammo to kill the same ammount of Jedi/Sith. Ammo reduction is just something to worry about if you cant aim very well.

I laugh at people who try to saber me now. Even with the Red style, the most damaging style in the game, I can still kill a Jedi in the time it takes him/her to swing the saber twice. In fact I cant WAIT for a Jedi to swing their saber at me. The moment they do their auto block goes down and thats when I unload my blaster in their face. And the plain simple truth is you can deal more damage faster with a blaster than with a saber. And it is exceptionaly painful to see a new player flailing around with their lightsaber as I keep about 8 feet away from them and pick them off at my leisure.

As far as Force powers goes, the only thing I really worry about anymore is Lightning. It is the only thing that really has a chance against me and that needs to be at relatively close range. Absorb. LOL. All I need is Jump/Push/Pull all level 3 and Im a Happy Gilmore.... Anything other than that is just pleasant amenities. Id take Force Sight and/or Mind Trick over Absorb any day...Sometimes Grip will catch me off gaurd but that is only when I am low on health and space that fact off. Otherwise I just push out and start blasting while they recover. Pull really isnt that effective either as I keep my push/pull at level 3. And since I am always aiming at the person I never really have my weapon pulled from my hand. Push? Same same. In fact on MY end it is worse because when I push people, especially jumpers, and they fall any decent distance away from me, I dont need to spend time chasing them down with a lightsaber, much less turning around for a floorsweep. From the moment I push someone it is all trigger time baby...

Now dont get me wrong. Im not whining about anything. In fact I kinda dig gunrunning. Going against all these Jedi and mopping up with the guns makes me feel like Boba Fett or some other uber-bountyhunter. And with the new Fett models, it's even better.

What I am doing is pulling for all the Jedi and Saberers out there belive it or not. I really hope Raven reads this. I like the tweaking on the animations and the blocking. The saber locks own too. But by lowering the damage of both the Force Powers and the Lightsabers, it makes FFA games gun games.

That is why I STILL support a system wide raising of saber damage, and Force wide bolstering of Force Powers. But at the same time, leave the weapon damage alone. In fact, up the Thermal Detonator damage to what the Det Packs do.

But till then, Im a Bounty Hunter. All my saber is good for is when I run out of ammo, or the stylish finishing of a weakened victim...


Discuss.........


I love a good fight...

Last edited by Ten Tigers; 05-22-2002 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 05-22-2002, 08:49 AM   #2
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You're right, what I think should be done is this:
Make sabers do damage according to the body area they hit, and how much of it they hit (ie if you move your saber all the way through their neck, they should die instantly) the fact that sabers would then be much more lethal should now be counteracted by making blocking a little more reliable (less random, and better at blocking idle sabers and also maybe a bit more directional). This would do a few things. First off, any one-hit-kill whores using stupid moves to rack up kills (DFA in 1.02, Backstab/sweep in 1.03) will be effectively nerfed. Also, gunners will be cut down like flies against a close-up lightsaber, as the only real effective defense against a saber is another saber or the force.
Imo, all forces should be made more powerful, so that someone with lots of force against someone with lots of saber-skill should be on a par (as it is you NEED a good saber-offense/defense in a duel, where you should be able to only use powerful force, I mean, look at Darth Sideous in RotJ). Also, maybe include a gunnery system, similar to that of the saber offense/defense, by making the weapons more accurate and so forth (or not letting you use certain difficult-to-use weapons). This way gunners would not be able to completely own saber users by removing all saber skill points just to rack up force powers.
Just my '2-cents' post any arguments about the points here


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Old 05-22-2002, 09:20 AM   #3
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No arguements here. I find your reply a breath of fresh air. I was expecting a string of flames and noobs. I will probably get that too. Just give it time.

I really like your idea of the whole hit location thing. And since individual body parts are already recognized via dismemberment I dont see where it would be that difficult. That way Lightsabers would be the lethal melee weapons they are supposed to be, yet if you dont polish up on your finesse you willl find a lot of your attacks blocked or your hits only doing grazing damage rather than the full monty.

The only ensuing problem I see might be with guns being near useless. As I stated in my original post, the majority of the tactic is to get your opponent to swing his/her saber. This lowers their auto-block and allows you to hit with normal blaster fire. Which is the dilema because that is the way it should be. I guess the answer might be to raise gun damage SLIGHTLY. Otherwise we are stuck with the jedi deflecting or pushing everything back at the gunner. As much as people bitch about alt-repeater fire, it CAN be pushed back. The ONLY weapon fire I know of that cannot be either blocked or pushed back to sender is the EMP atl fire. Which is kool. Again a lot of people bitch about this too, but in my opinion it does piss poor damage. Im pretty good with centering the blast radius of the EMP and I usually run out of ammo before I kill anyone with it. Unless they are already hurt.

But back to sabers. We think a lot alike. In addition to a damage hike I also support more blocking. Make it less random so when you concentrate on being defensive you are actually rewarded for your caution.

Plus I think that tweaking the sabers collision detection will help this too. It seems that as it is, there is a damage arc rather than a point of contact. It is really noticeable with the red style. If someone swings a horizontal slash with the red style and you try to take advantage of the post swing, ie wait for the swing to start then attack the opening where the swing originated from, you will still be damaged by the swing. I notice this even more with jumping. I have jumped over peoples heads and have been hit/killed because they were mid swing, even though the saber never actually touched me. I crossed its "damage arc".

It just seems like Raven needs to look at the BIG picture before releasing the next patch. They were so busy trying to cure everyones issue with saber combat that they nerfed it in comparison to guns. The same goes for Force Powers.

Other than that, I am still pro 1.03 patch. I think it is a step in the right direction. It just needs to be tweaked more...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:17 AM   #4
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All that needs to happen is Raven needs to make it so that when you are using a gun you can't use force powers. This game is based on Star Wars and the Jedi, when did you EVER see a Jedi use a blaster and the force at the same time???? Never! As long as a gunner doesn't use absorb I own him almost everytime. I usaully have no problems pulling the unblockable weapons from his hand, if he likes to pull/push I turn on absorb and rush not swinging but trying to kick him or just run into him with my saber and damage him that way.

Bottom line is a gunner should not be able to use the force at all. It gives un unfair adavnatage coupled with the range of guns and just does not fit at all with the Star Wars universe.
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:24 AM   #5
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And just to add this, in my experrience my Saber owns gunz when I play . When I play FFA, TFFA, & CTF I'm usually at the top of the scoreboard, and I NEVER use guns.
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:45 AM   #6
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guns+force owns saber+force
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Old 05-22-2002, 12:42 PM   #7
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After reading this and trying it i have come to the conclusion....your are right! People with guns actually forced me to get my guns out. Usually I go for the saber only matches and duke it out. But I went into a standerd FFA match to find that every person with a saber was getting the crap kicked out of them. So I joined the gun side. Don't get me wrong, i still love the saber battles, much more skill needed. But guns will always better the saber.
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Old 05-22-2002, 12:49 PM   #8
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As long as gunners don't use absorb I kick their asses. I only use the saber cuz if I wanted to use guns I'd play another shooter that has better weapons. I bought the game for the saber and force, which no other shooter has.

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Old 05-22-2002, 03:06 PM   #9
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Kahn, I beleive there are other thread for bull****ting, and making yourself feel better. Please use one instead of threads not intended for it.
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Old 05-22-2002, 03:29 PM   #10
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I'm still amazed that there are people that WANT to use guns in this game. I mean c'mon...we all know deep down that this is a Saber game...plain and simple.

I have nothing against the guns since I play Saber only servers, but really...the things that set this game apart from the myriad of FPS's out there is the Saber and Force powers.

Wanna deathmatch with guns?..play Q3

Want tension in your gun battles?...play CS

Wanna play intense CTF?...play UT or better yet T2.

Want to be a Jedi?...play JO - Saber only.


You know it, I know it and Raven knows it...guns were added to the MP game to simply attract a few more players and to make other gaming modes (CTF) more viable.

I'm glad you all enjoy the guns, but in my opinion there are more and better games for gun battles out there.
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:00 PM   #11
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then get more ppl to play jedivmerc mode and sabers still starting owning again. The flaw is people thinking this is the movies, where the jedis own the "mercs", the difference is the gunners in this game use the force also.
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:49 PM   #12
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i think that the new system is pretty unfair too. when it normally takes a minute or so to saber someone (if they're good) it takes a whole 2 seconds to just rocket them both or go and own them with alt-repeater fire. this makes the game kinda not as much of a challenge because guns are so much more powerful than sabres now. i think that there should be an increase in damage of sabres up to where it used to be and also a smaller blocking radius for sabre to sabre combat. this way it takes more skill to block and sabre battles dont last so long(i am also a supporter of manual blocking {against sabres only of course}because this would really separate the good players from the bad). also i think that blocking of blaster fire should be made better. i.e. at level 3 sabre block i think that you should block 100% level 2 maybe 80% or 75 or so and level 1 maybe 60-70. I have been playing many a time and i would have sabre block on level 3 and i would still take hits. as long as you are facing your opponent i think that you should be able to block 100%of the blaster fire.

the nerfing of force powers also seems really unfair. i think that grip and drain have been nerfed to the point that it's almost useless to use them. drain wont even beat lightning now cause lightning deals more damage than drain absorbs. also absorb has been made into a godly skill which seems kinda unfair to me. i think that raven should revert absorb back to it's original force cost but keep the invisible aspect of it. also i think that when using grip, if you cant run then you should at least be able to use another force power on them at the same time. grip + push at the same time would be really nice (i know that you can kinda do this now if you just drop the person and then push rly fast but it's sometimes hard to do). anyways i hope that raven decides to balance things out again because as things are now they seem pretty unfair.


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Old 05-22-2002, 04:55 PM   #13
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bogus. i can always beat a gunner with a gun or a saber.

because .03 is so flawed, people must be light to win. that makes gun fights much more of a pain in the ass because of uber-absorb.

the fact that now, instead of a visual cue AND because of uber power, absorb was alterd in a way that helps gunners tremendiously, ala jk1. eg see canyon oasis ff.

But because of ammo depletion, guns are neutered. a good saberist can wait you out. i could. then ill kill you.

before, it was just more balanced.
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:56 PM   #14
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pull was your friend.

im sure that pull will be neuterd too in the next version in another twisted and laughable attempt at finding a balance
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Old 05-22-2002, 05:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Con. Snake
Kahn, I beleive there are other thread for bull****ting, and making yourself feel better. Please use one instead of threads not intended for it.

I'm not bull****ting and I don't need a game to make myself feel better. I'll post what I want in whatever thread I feel like thank you.
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Old 05-22-2002, 05:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
I'm not bull****ting
Keep telling yourself that lie, someday you'll truly believe it.
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Con. Snake
Keep telling yourself that lie, someday you'll truly believe it.
Put your money where your mouth is biatch.
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:52 PM   #18
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I think a lot of people here are missing the point. Contrary to popular opinion, lightsabers did not dominate the movies. And if they did it was because it was a movie and the good guys are supposed to win.

The guns were put in for extra atmosphere. The multiplayer gun runner does not represent Joe Stormtrooper. Every gunrunner represents the elite soldier. The best Bounty Hunter. At least in my opinion. I keep hearing people say if you want a gun game go play something else. But in my opinion that is about a retarded statement. Akin to saying "If you dont want to play Ken or Ryu then Streetfighter is not for you".

I swear, people seem to forget that this game in not official canon. It doesnt HAVE to perfectly fit in with the original trilogy.

So here is MY retort. If you are looking for a weapon only game, go play Soul Calubur. I kind of like the diversity of JKII. I just wish the Force Powers and Sabers would be brought up to snuff.

I dont think removing force powers from gunners is a viable solution either. Not without giving them some kind of compensation. Otherwise you have the whole Jedi vs. Merc thing. Let's forget anything fancy like a grappling hook or a jet pack. Simply starting with a full invintory or the ability to jump with the equivalent of a level one force jump, and the ability to roll. Especialy the ability to shoot while rolling side to side, just not forward or backwards. Just those 3 basic things would make for a fairly balanced Jedi/Merc game.

Remember, more options, not less.


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:53 PM   #19
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Acctually, It all depends on who your fighting. If someone is extremely great at split second movement in JK2 he can easily dodge the blasts from the guns and get in close and use his saber. But if someone with a lightsaber is going up with a person whos a great shot with a blaster then the jedi may lose.


Me? What do I get to look forward to? An endless search for the one person in my life who really understood me; a search that will ultimately and predictably lead to my demise......

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Old 05-22-2002, 08:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
bogus. i can always beat a gunner with a gun or a saber.

because .03 is so flawed, people must be light to win. that makes gun fights much more of a pain in the ass because of uber-absorb.

the fact that now, instead of a visual cue AND because of uber power, absorb was alterd in a way that helps gunners tremendiously, ala jk1. eg see canyon oasis ff.

But because of ammo depletion, guns are neutered. a good saberist can wait you out. i could. then ill kill you.

before, it was just more balanced.
Sorry, unless you are going to wait forever, you have to swing that saber sometimes. It sounds like you didnt even read the post, and are just letting your ego do the talking now. Ammo depletion didnt neuter guns. Only for people with a bad aim. The damage is still the same.

You sound like most saberists I kill. You think I would approach the fight like a saber fight. Then b!tch when you get fragged. Wait me out and kill me. Sounds like you put a LOT of thought into that thar strategy.

But Ill be nice and give you what seems to be a much needed hint. Try to catch me before I collect a bunch of weapons. Early in my spawn is a good time for that.

Absorb. LOL. All I need is Jump/Push/Pull all level 3 and Im a Happy Gilmore.... Anything other than that is just pleasant amenities. Id take Force Sight and/or Mind Trick over Absorb any day...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 08:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trannyn Covnant
Acctually, It all depends on who your fighting. If someone is extremely great at split second movement in JK2 he can easily dodge the blasts from the guns and get in close and use his saber. But if someone with a lightsaber is going up with a person whos a great shot with a blaster then the jedi may lose.
Funny you should mention that. Cause it was actually all the saber training that I did that made me a good shot as a gunner. Which still needs work I will admit, I put more time into the saber than the gun. But because of that I know the range of all three stances and when they are vulnerable.

Know thy enemy...


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Old 05-22-2002, 09:25 PM   #22
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the biggest problem i have witht he game now is that the damage done by sabers is so low that everyone is doing the pull+ back stab/swing just to kill people. more than one occasion i see players run into a fight backwards hehehe
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:29 PM   #23
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I think sabre's are way cooler than guns but Yeah....guns do own sabre's. I too hope that Raven heeds this....this game is for us anyway...so....It is logical to assume that if you were up against someone with a sabre and the other person had a gun and you were hit with a sabre in the neck, completely through the torso etc....then they should die instantly. That would be an added bonus if they would incorporate dismemberment into the multiplayer game other than the hand being cut off. It could be turned off by default of course and there still does not have to be blood as a lightsabre wound would cauterize immediately. The most important thing would be to increase the sabre strength....it should honestly be able to deflect most weapons.


B O W E N
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bowen
I think sabre's are way cooler than guns but Yeah....guns do own sabre's. I too hope that Raven heeds this....this game is for us anyway...so....It is logical to assume that if you were up against someone with a sabre and the other person had a gun and you were hit with a sabre in the neck, completely through the torso etc....then they should die instantly. That would be an added bonus if they would incorporate dismemberment into the multiplayer game other than the hand being cut off. It could be turned off by default of course and there still does not have to be blood as a lightsabre wound would cauterize immediately. The most important thing would be to increase the sabre strength....it should honestly be able to deflect most weapons.
Agreed. But I do think that you should be vulnerable to back attacks without force sight. And of course you should be vulnerable when attacking or using the force.

All and all they should make lethal sabers an option like no-force, and saber-only. That way people who are happy with low damage sabers wont get raped.

More options yo'....


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:03 PM   #25
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i was going to come up with a long, well thought out, in depth response to your post but i was stopped in my tracks. your credablity with me has taken a nose dive.

if you are not a coward and a hypocrit (and i really really do not believe that you are), you will post the following at the top of your original post:


Quote:
Absorb. LOL. All I need is Jump/Push/Pull all level 3 and Im a Happy Gilmore.... Anything other than that is just pleasant amenities. Id take Force Sight and/or Mind Trick over Absorb any day...
****posted at the request of Nathan Wind




If you do that, i have much untarnished respect for you and i will be happy to talk more about the questionable value of guns in v1.03.
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:06 PM   #26
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so basically, they should not nerf the sabers amd force?
i think so, they should make the force better, and sabers better at defence.
also, i think they should make the blue stance defend better than yellow, and yellow better than red, then lessen the speed gap between the 3, so thers a reason to puick blue stance, defence aganst gunners!
also they should make the dark side realistically equal, in 1.02 it kicked ass, but in 1.03 it got SUPER nerfed, to the point whare it is nearly impossible to play well.
finally i should they should nerf the absorb power again, to it is again on par with drain, and un-nerf drain, so it is on par with absorb!


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Old 05-22-2002, 10:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
i was going to come up with a long, well thought out, in depth response to your post but i was stopped in my tracks. your credablity with me has taken a nose dive.

if you are not a coward and a hypocrit (and i really really do not believe that you are), you will post the following at the top of your original post:



****posted at the request of Nathan Wind




If you do that, i have much untarnished respect for you and i will be happy to talk more about the questionable value of guns in v1.03.
Although I dont recall trying to be verbally offensive, I find your request reasonable none the less. I put the added quote in the third paragraph where I speak of Force Powers. That way it is still in context with the rest of the topic. Acceptable?

In fact I would say that my lack of absorb is why I get caught by lightning so often. So Absorb does have it's usefulness for gunrunners, but when playing on a low force server where you have to spend your points wisely, I will go with Jump/Push/Pull.

Push/Pull keeps me from getting owned by the Push/Pull of others. And Jump merely simulates a jet pack in my opinion. Which if you will indulge me further, the reason I pick the powers I do is to simulate various Bounty Hunter tools. I justify Force Sight as my multi-optic helmet, and Mind Trick as a cloaking field like the one the Predators used, in Predator 1 and 2.


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:33 PM   #28
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honestly? no, not acceptable

i said top for a reason there, buddy

i know that that information is ESSENTIAL! especially if raven reads this, as you charge them to. (i hope they have their heads out of their asses now)

even better if you use it as your signature
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wamprat013
so basically, they should not nerf the sabers amd force?
Correct. And as far as raising damage goes, it should not be insta-gib. Otherwise why use anything other than blue style.

I say redefine the defensive abilities kinda like you suggested, but as for saber damage, all red moves should be one hit kills with a SOLID strike. Grazing strikes should do less damage. This is at 100health, 100 armor. So yes, if you are at 200/200 you may survive a single solid red strike. That is 200 damage per solid red strike.

Yellow damage should be at 100 per hit. This means it only takes two solid hits from yellow style to land a kill but more if they are only grazing strikes, or if the defender has over 100 heath and shields.

And Blue should be set at 50 points per hit. This means 4 solid hits to kill someone at 100/100.

Special moves and backstabs should do the same damage respectively. Special moves should be useful for their combat mechanics. Not because they do superdamage.

Back swings are useful because you do not have to take the time to turn around to strike your opponent.

The Blue lunge, and Red Leap attack are usefull because they have a range increase.

The Yellow Flipstrike is usefull because it can get around the opponents defenses if they just hold still and dont adjust for the jump.


And all this will be more usefull with better blocking and more accurate hit detection with the sabers.


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Old 05-22-2002, 10:36 PM   #30
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in fact, you should use it as your signature on all threads where you argue about guns being too strong in v1.03
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:49 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Nathan Wind
honestly? no, not acceptable

i said top for a reason there, buddy

i know that that information is ESSENTIAL! especially if raven reads this, as you charge them to. (i hope they have their heads out of their asses now)

even better if you use it as your signature
The best I'll do is seperate it into it's own paragraph. It wasnt meant to be the highlight of this thread. The central message here is sabers dont do enough damage. And if that is STILL not good enough then please explain how my refusal to cooperate makes me a coward or a hypocrite. Im not sure I understand where youre coming from.

Even with Jump/Push/Pull at level 3 it would be a lot harder to work that strategy if sabers did respectable damage. A lot more risk involved. The same could be said for more damaging Force Powers. I wouldnt laugh at Grip and ignore Absorb if Grip actually hurt me. A Grip/Drop is the only thing I am really concerned with as far as Grip goes.

P.S. Sigs have been disabled for as long as I have been here...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
in fact, you should use it as your signature on all threads where you argue about guns being too strong in v1.03
Guns arent too strong. Sabers are too weak.


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:11 PM   #33
Nathan Wind
 
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i guess i have to spell it out. that quote negates the majority of your argument, and screams "discredit me." It totally shows your hand and your bias for this post.

i also guess i have to reveal a secret about the game that i would prefer not to (as very few players, even good ones, know or utilize this).

guns can be pulled.

its that simple. just like saberists can be hit by bullets in mid swing, guns can be pulled in mid fire, no matter what your force configs are dealing with push/pull.

before it got trendy, i used the back sweep all the time dealing with gunners.

saber vs gun formula : pull (gun), pull(ground), back sweep.

If it didnt kill them (and pre-patch, thats a very very high possibility), it surely raped them, setting them up for a death that WAS avoidable, but usually startled players succumbed to.

I dont want to get preachy about what the problems with the game were, (again) but my biggest problem is the visibility of absorb. It is crucial in saber vs gun fights, and i think that it is the least likely of all the changes to be righted. (most players never realize how much more important that power is)

these are all for high-end competitive games mind you, with people who knew this game.

If you want to know what my problem with .02 was, it was drain over powerd. Thats the logical step and problem from the gun counter.

In .03 this game is redicilously one sided. dark is completely useless. i am totally surprised that you would scoff the best force power in the game (by uber over-powering it with the patch).

you shouldnt feel threatend by darkies. they are kittens.

low ammo is now just annoying and redundant, drawing out kills that should be had faster.

anyone who has any complaints about guns other than about ammo is not knowledgable enough. sorry.
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:26 PM   #34
Spider AL
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Hear hear, Nathan. The game IS one-sided in favour of absorb users who are invulnerable to everything, because they can pull guns, pull/backswing people, not get thrown off anything...

People (not just darksiders, anyone) who don't use absorb, die horribly.

That's why I use it. But I don't LIKE the fact that 1.03 has imbalanced a perfectly balanced game. It was only severely bitter whiney types who EVER accused sabres of being weak in 1.02. It was only whiney types who EVER suggested that one side was more powerful than another.

Whiney types have imbalanced the game. A sad, but essentially true factoid.

As for guns v. sabres, Nathan's right, who cares? With absorb you can win against a gunner or a sabreist, by using a gun or a sabre. Doesn't make any difference. There's absorbant Jedi, and then there's non-absorbant Jedi. And just like the ahem... women's toiletries, it's the absorbant ones that win.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:53 PM   #35
[CO] HellmasteR
 
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In the movies, the guns could kill just as well as sabers if the jedi's werent too busy blocking the shots, One shot at almost anybody had them dead, remember? I think that the guns are perfect as is, but maybe make force less powerful if you are using a gun, (just a suggestion, dont go and have me lynched) or make it more powerful for saber (either or, do both and I kill you).
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
i guess i have to spell it out. that quote negates the majority of your argument, and screams "discredit me." It totally shows your hand and your bias for this post.

.
Nice veiled insult. You should have just stuck to calling me a coward. Like posting something on a message board has ANYTHING to do with courage.


Next time make your point BEFORE trying to get all self rightous. I had to host a National Peace Conferance just to get you to spit out your point. What are you? 10 years old? I was seriously waiting for you to start stomping your feet and holding your breath. Grow up.

Which by the way is moot. A lot of people try pulling my guns. It only works about 20% of the time. Like I said, I dont use absorb so their failure speaks for itself. They try to pull, I go into a push animation and fire on them while their defenses are down trying to use a force power. Again, the same point I originaly made. If you use a force power or swing your saber it drops your defences and leaves you vulnerable to guns. And guns do far more damage in less time than sabers.

So if you think that making a half baked point about absorb negated my WHOLE post, go look up the word biased. Next time try actualy using counterpoints, and address the WHOLE topic. Not just one sentance.

I KNEW it was just a matter of time before some whiney bitch showed up.

So what's next kid? Im lying?



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Old 05-23-2002, 02:18 AM   #37
Nathan Wind
 
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i didnt want to get into a long drawn out debate on force powers, especially on a gun thread.

you aggressively respond to my post and liken me to a whiney bitch, a noob saberist, and an all around ignorant player that is oh so easily disposed of.

Then you make the boldest statement that i have ever read regarding this game.

Before i continue, i want to say a few things right off the bat.

i really respect you, or at least more so than most people. the only reason i can fathom for the botched surgery that is 1.03 is that there were too many whiney bitches and raven listened to all the wrong ones. People wanted vanilla no force saber fights but they didnt want to find duel servers. The result was that they bitched and everything else was castrated.

The reason i respect you is that no matter how wrong i think you are about your claims, they are coming from the right direction.

People bitching about how aspects of the game are too good because they are spammed or die from it too often are the last people raven should have been listening too.

Complaints are only legit when people complain the other way; that they win too easily. These are the people that should be listened to before anyone else!! These people know the game and are talented. They go hand in hand. Nothing gives more credibility.

That is you. I respect you for that.

I also think you are completely wrong. The fact that you say "raven read this" scares me as well because i honestly do not know how raven chose to listen to the whiners they did. A post that is opposite of what i feel is fundamental AND one that i think raven might read freaks me out the most. They are the enemy.

On top of this, i do not see how anybody should have this argument, save from an "absorb is too powerful" perspective. The fact that you adopt one but not the other quite frankly shocked me. (And i believe that you need to make this known. I still urge you to put the quote at the top).

I challenged you to not be a coward and hypocrite by posting this fact up front because i KNOW that you will either be eating your words or are a game guru. I frankly want you discredited on this thread. If you post that quote and still defend your position while hinting at an "evolved" style of play (one that obviously does not require absorb to use guns even in this absorb only version) then i would be putty. I would listen to every word you said about this game as law.

But the fact is, there is no evolved style of play.

And the fact is that aside from being taken by surprise and killed when i have less then around 30% of my health, i can always take out gunners with my saber and gun.

The trick to getting a gunner is to disarm him, and the trick to that (if one is needed) is to wait him out and/or know when to go balls out aggressive.

In 1.03, absorb is suped up (with visibility being on the top of the list) for more of a gunners game, ie jk 1 (see canyon oasis ff). Ammo depletion neutered them though.

Couple that with new super moves for sabers, 1.03 is not very gun friendly.

The fact that you were going to give ME a hint to kill you fast, and then go on to say you do not use absorb only makes me think you only play bad people.

There is no "guns are too strong argument." A "guns are too strong argument" and an "absorb is useless" argument do not go together at all. If you want to argue it, then put it up that you think absorb is useless right up front.

You're either an advanced genius, or an above-average fool.

I guess it can be said that i have an effectiveness rate of at least 95% when i use pull, so i guess you can see where im coming from.
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:21 AM   #38
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Saber and force powers own. There is nothing you can't repell I love how people think that they can kill me with a big badass rocket launcher, and then I just force push the rocket back. Same goes for the Thermal Dets and such


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:53 AM   #39
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I AGREE

I agree, that last patch did kind of suck and screw things way up IMO. I like that they fixed DFA, and that they made the saber attack animations and moves almost exactly like they are in SP, but I dont see why they had to screw with the damage. Nobody ever complained about the damage. Sabers should be able to kill in at least 2 shots in red stance, and 3 or 4 in yellow. The only stance it should take you long to kill someone with at all is light stance. Since they stretched the damage so thin its impossible to go up against a gun user using anything but the briar, and even then it can be tough if they are concious sentient beings.

Ive bitched about this exact thing on the boards before and I'll do it again, but the simple fact is that what im bitching about effects nearly everyone (minus a select few) in a negative way whether they like it or not. The saber users are no match for gun users, the snipers cant take people with full shields out in one fully charged shot (as if it isnt hard enough to hit a moving target anyway), the legitimate saber fighters are plagued by the assfighters.


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Old 05-23-2002, 03:29 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
People bitching about how aspects of the game are too good because they are spammed or die from it too often are the last people raven should have been listening too.

Complaints are only legit when people complain the other way; that they win too easily. These are the people that should be listened to before anyone else!! These people know the game and are talented. They go hand in hand. Nothing gives more credibility.
I don't care much for this thread, but I want to make two points....first to Nathan's idea quoted above.


Are you insane?. How many people came to these forums during 1.02 and said "Nerf DFA I kill too many people with it". If we relied on the "talented" and "legit" players to base game tweaks on, it wouldn't happen.

Quote:

These people know the game and are talented. They go hand in hand. Nothing gives more credibility.
Now I know you're on crack. The very things that got changed were those things that got whored by the untalented, too tired to learn anything other than the easiest guaranteed kill moves type of players

How many people come here now and say..."you know I just find killing people too easy...I use backstab all the time and Im the best player there is...please make the game harder for me"

The inverse is what happens and whether you realize it or not...the end result is the same. If we did live in Utopia and people did complain the game was too easy because they found ways to exploit it, the end result would be the same...Raven would nerf those moves to fix the problem.

My second point goes to Ten Toes or whatever his name is... Absorb is the bomb now. Why waste points on Push/Pull when absorb not only negates those, but everything else as well? Having push/pull at lvl 3 to counter other push pull is pointless. Save some points and go either push OR pull and dump some into absorb...you'll be surprised. Don't get me wrong Push/Pull have their place, but to max both for the purpose of negating others is foolish, unless of course you really just want to use it to push people off ledges or pull/backstab.
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