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Old 04-27-2003, 02:20 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
If you get pregnant, you and your lover(s) are thrown headfirst out in the first port you get to, then shipped home. Zero tolerance.
Hahahahahaha. Good plan!


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Old 04-27-2003, 03:30 PM   #42
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Okay, but it would seem they do. They get into skiing a bit faster than guys, and they tend to fall less.
I don't have much to compare with, but it took my mother a long time to learn skiing, and the only reason she doesn't fall much is because she's always being extra-careful never to do anything even remotely wild on skis.

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My point is, it's perfectly possible. Why? It's being done. We also have women in infantry divisions, as far as I know.
Yup, but they're there of their own free will, right? They aren't being drafted into infantry divisions. Still, I think you're talking about females in support roles, logistics etc. Those are an invaluable part of the military.

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Well, you sign up for war knowing you can get killed. Isn't that almost as bad, or worse (I'd rather get killed than abused)? And men are sexually abused too, aren't they?
Hehe, I know what you mean, man.

But still, to the public, getting raped ranks as one of the worst crimes, sometimes even worse than getting outright killed.

Imagine the reaction of the public if your entire squad was captured by the enemy - half of it were women. Now, all the women are getting raped, and all the men are getting their teeth pulled out without anaesthetics. Which gender gets the most attention, do you think? And then, imagine if it those women had "just" got killed instead - that wouldn't have been much of a fuss, would it?

Simply put, the public isn't ready to see this kind of thing happening to their neighbor's daughter.


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Old 04-27-2003, 03:47 PM   #43
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Originally posted by XWING5
I can't really argue with you too much there C'Jais. I don't think that men are ready to fight amongst women on the battlefield. Hell, in some cases they won't fight with other men (but that is a whole other thread.) But I gotta say, in all honesty (and I am not for women fighting infantry as the situation stands), I have seen women who could do the job, and plenty of men who I wouldn't want next to me in a foxhole. Everything is relative to the person. You know how firemen must pass a sort of physically strenuous entrance exam? Well, that could be done with the Infantry. If you measure up, male or female, you are in.
No point arguing here, no - I agree very much.

Of course there are women who'd be capable of running away from the frontline with her fellow soldier on the back, and of course there are men who would panic when in a trench for the first time. But in general, it's rare. Women in general are just not built to fight as much as a man is, but there are plenty of exceptions. And if you're one of the exceptions, I can't see what's stopping you.

But then again, there are a number of issues with establishing this test of sorts, and I can't see it working in a time where the country needs a lot of soldiers - many men would end up not passing the test, and even more women. A lot of waste, in this regard. Better to let all the men there's available be molded into soldiers the best way possible.


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Old 04-27-2003, 11:52 PM   #44
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However, I know for a fact that the Navy has other jobs. You've seen the commercials advertising the 212 ways to be a soldier in the Army. Are you saying women can't work in Commanding roles for MI, MP, Quartermaster, Pilot, etc? There are so many support elements that could be filled, that need to be filled, and would be filled successfully by women.
If you are drafted, you are sent to whatever branch needs you. Now, I don't know about the Army, but I know that in the Marine Corps, every Marine is a Rifleman, first and foremost. Your occupation is secondary. You may have been able to carry your weight, but that does not hold true across the board. Every run we did, every hump, every physically demanding excercise, our women always were in the back with the dropouts. Everytime. Now, I'm not saying women cannot serve. I'm saying that they cannot serve in a combat role, support or otherwise. Draft women if you want, but stick them in the airforce or something. They would still be in an unequal position.

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Originally posted by XWING5
And you know, if the sailors can't stay away from the female on a sub, maybe they both need to be kicked off the sub and go to some profesionalism classes.
I reckon you are of a decent age. Are you suggesting that it's unprofessional to have sex? Everyone has sex, to deny that and call it unprofessional is like calling it a sin. Do you think that if you put 150 men and 10 women in a very, very confined space for the better part of half a year that they should not have sex? Just sit around, rubbing one out?

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Originally posted by C'jais
Most men are raised to protect and take care of females first and foremost. If I were to see a wounded female in my squad and was required to proceed with the objectives at hand, I'd hesitate. I'd probably place a lot of attention on the woman to make sure she was okay. Granted, this attitude can change, but I don't see it doing it for a long time.
I believe that your training would guide you through such a situation. Running away and fear are also instinct for humans, and that is something that combat training acknowledges and attempts to overcome. I don't think I would falter on the sole basis that it was a woman who got killed or injured.

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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
...ICBM Missile Subs...
I know what you are talking about, but I must say that there aren't such things as ICBM Subs. Submarines are not considered continents. They carry ballistic missiles, not icbms.
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Old 04-28-2003, 12:11 AM   #45
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I reckon you are of a decent age. Are you suggesting that it's unprofessional to have sex? Everyone has sex, to deny that and call it unprofessional is like calling it a sin. Do you think that if you put 150 men and 10 women in a very, very confined space for the better part of half a year that they should not have sex? Just sit around, rubbing one out?
What I am saying is that if two soldiers can't perform as such and one soldier hinders the mission and has to be removed from her position, then that is unprofessional. I am not naive, nor going to sit here and deny that such things happen. But it is unprofessional if the branch you serve trains you and puts you down in a sub to do a particular job and then you throw it out the window for a lil fun.


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

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Old 04-28-2003, 12:17 AM   #46
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If you are drafted, you are sent to whatever branch needs you. Now, I don't know about the Army, but I know that in the Marine Corps, every Marine is a Rifleman, first and foremost. Your occupation is secondary. You may have been able to carry your weight, but that does not hold true across the board. Every run we did, every hump, every physically demanding excercise, our women always were in the back with the dropouts. Everytime. Now, I'm not saying women cannot serve. I'm saying that they cannot serve in a combat role, support or otherwise. Draft women if you want, but stick them in the airforce or something. They would still be in an unequal position.
Actually, that isn't always true. In WWII, guys were not blindly sent out to the front lines. There outside job/qualifications were taken into consideration. If a doctor was drafted, that was recognized and he often became a medic. And I can't speak for the females in your unit, but there are several women in my unit that stay with the front of the pack during ruck marches. However, as I said earlier, it doesn't mean I favor women on the front lines. But the reasons against them not doing so are sometimes weak.


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

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Old 04-28-2003, 12:24 AM   #47
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I reckon you are of a decent age. Are you suggesting that it's unprofessional to have sex? Everyone has sex, to deny that and call it unprofessional is like calling it a sin. Do you think that if you put 150 men and 10 women in a very, very confined space for the better part of half a year that they should not have sex? Just sit around, rubbing one out?
CO: So we're in the middle of the Pacific, at a 500 ft., at war with China, who has just launched 2 megatons of missils at the States and wiped out five cities. Now, one of their subs could potentially spot our submarine and blast it to pieces unless we evaded or our countermeasures worked. Also, there's the threat of mutiny, a traitor aboard our sub, and sabotage such as the secret poisoning of our food prior to the sub's launch. I remind you, we're in extreme danger. What is your primary suggestion of action?
Everyone: Let's f***!!!!
Er.. yeah

Look, if something's banned, something's banned. In a situation like the one above, people wouldn't worry about having sex. They'd worry that they might get killed. It's not like "see, Mr. President, we would have stopped those troop ships, but we were having sex..."

Also, about every navy/air force/army regulation has at some point been broken. What about the soldier in Iraq who threw a grenade at his officers' tent. Did they follow that up with a ban of soldiers on guard, not in actual combat, carrying grenades? Or of soldiers being on guard alone, not in pairs? No. But I guess if it had resulted in a pregnancy, it'd have been different?

You're right in a way, you can't stop adults from having sex more than you can keep high school students from kissing, and in many cases, having sex. However, you can keep high school students from kissing in class, and let them have to go outside of school to do it. Likewise, you should be able to keep adults from having sex on a sub. Otherwise, our beloved Iraqi Misinformation Minister might come up with something like:
"The American navy has retreated due to pregnancy! Victory is ours! Praise Saddam!"

Okay, anyway, regardless of your position in the military, how many people agree that women should be drafted? At least to positions where they "won't get in the way"?

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Old 04-28-2003, 12:44 AM   #48
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I am so undecided. I go back and forth. I think they should, yet I foresee so many problems. So many people would get out of ther draft because one parent would have to stay home or something like that. But yeah, if the draft were to come up again, I think it would only be fair for everyone if the draft was completely non-discriminating. Of course a lot of females would be like "Noooooo!", but a lot of guys are like that too. I just hate to hear females argue about equality when it suits them. Gives us a bad name I think.


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

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Old 04-28-2003, 12:51 AM   #49
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Well, if you can perform your duties, then I'd be cool with it. After thinking about it for awhile, this whole women in the draft discussion is something like 40 years irrelevant. There is never going to be another draft, not in the foreseable future. But yeah, if there ever is another one, draft women too. They can catch bullets just as well as men.
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Old 04-28-2003, 12:59 AM   #50
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But yeah, if there ever is another one, draft women too. They can catch bullets just as well as men.
That's right. With our teeth.....


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

RED 5 Standing By.....
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Old 05-06-2003, 01:15 AM   #51
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Just to make a wild jump here:

Who else than me would want to grow up in a society where everthing was unisex and children were raised the same way, regardless of gender?

I'm not asking because I'm perverted, but because I think the gender gap is a bad thing ("gender roles", etc.). Boys should be allowed to be as open as girls, for example. And as for the unisex thing: Why not? If they grow up in it, it'll be normal to them. And if you don't want people to see your naked body, wear a bathsuit.

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Old 05-07-2003, 11:45 AM   #52
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I'm with you Eagle, but I can't see it happening in the next 200 years. It's still something we should strive towards, though, for obvious reasons.

Gender roles are there for a reason. There are things men are better at than women (like being a modern soldier, though that may change), and vice versa.

The draft exists in my country, and I've already listed some practical issues with women getting drafted. Of course, if they're just as able as men, then let them join. Another problem with having women on the frontline is that when the female population takes a drastic drop from casualties, the birth rate isn't going to compensate.


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Old 05-08-2003, 11:09 AM   #53
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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Next, sexual abuse and the likes. You know a woman can get away with staring and sometimes even stalking a good deal easier than a guy.
'Cause it's not as common.

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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Having a baby doesn't exactly bring a submarine anywhere.
What makes that sub sail is money as much as it's crew. No babies -> no money (or, for that matter, crew) -> stranded sub.

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IMO, the fact that girls aren't drafted is one of the most sexist problems in society. Think: How long would womens' right movements tolerate it if girls had to do something that guys didn't have to do?
Like having to bear children? Even if they don't want the child?

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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
I agree, but "men and women" sounds to informal, and citizens could imply (I know you didn't mean it that way) that all non- US citizens living in the States are created differently (well, we are, but still). What about "humans"?

BTW, I believe "man" is an old way of saying "human", as in "mankind" instead of "humankind", so the constitution could meaning "humans", maybe? Anyone know?
It is.

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(we sent a sub with a woman on it to Afghanistan, for example)
Eer... Am I the only one who can't see what a submersible would be doing in mountain war?

I'm against women in a general draft. Why? Well, I'm against a general draft, for one thing.

For another, if general draft was to have any meaning, it would mean that someone somewhere high up was counting on a lot of them not getting back. And men are far more expendable than women (for obvious reasons).


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Old 05-08-2003, 11:46 AM   #54
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--Like having to bear children? Even if they don't want the child?

No one have to bear children. You can have an abortion or you can have an operation of some kind to get the baby out alive without giving birth. That's got nothing to do with drafting anyhow.

-- Eer... Am I the only one who can't see what a submersible would be doing in mountain war?

Patrolling the seas outside of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Same as sending the USS enterprise to a desert war. Of course it's not going trough the desert, but it's patrolling the seas and being an airbase.

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Old 05-08-2003, 12:20 PM   #55
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-- Eer... Am I the only one who can't see what a submersible would be doing in mountain war?

Patrolling the seas outside of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Same as sending the USS enterprise to a desert war. Of course it's not going trough the desert, but it's patrolling the seas and being an airbase.
Yeah. Forgot to add the j/k. Sovvy. Me bad (but just picture it for a moment: Red October ploughing through the Afghani mountains, lol).
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Old 05-10-2003, 08:18 AM   #56
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look ever isnce the start of time.......... blah blah blah(we'll skip the history) Over time women have been ignored and now we are finally getting our voice heard we can vote , work, learn, participate n sports too. but seroiusly we are all sexist. ik or examplle we say men can't wear make up or can't cook or shouldn't cook or something or other. (it' really early ok)like men say tht women can'tbe president.(some say no some say yes) somepeople think



men-work for themoney do aall the financial work
women-take care of house cooking kids school of kids and other
stuff



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Old 05-10-2003, 01:58 PM   #57
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Welcome to the boards, Marichui.

Quote:
men-work for themoney do aall the financial work
women-take care of house cooking kids school of kids and other
stuff
That is pretty much the stereotype.

About female drafting: I think they should be, but you're right, there are some fields where men would do better (unless, of course, you've got some female candidates who are better than men).

Make-up.. thing is, most men don't want to wear make-up anyway. We think it looks good on girls, horrible on boys. We're kind of strange that way.

My example would be hugging and physical contact. For crying out loud, girls can kiss without anyone looking twice at them for it, but if boys do as much as hug, we're labelled as "homos". By some girls, even.

About presidentism, I don't think that's the people's job anyway, but the task of the people-elected political party, who by law can't appoint a president on basis of colour, heritgage, gender, partner's gender, etc. But that's a different discussion.

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Old 05-12-2003, 01:43 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Patrolling the seas outside of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Same as sending the USS enterprise to a desert war. Of course it's not going trough the desert, but it's patrolling the seas and being an airbase.
Afghanistan is a landlocked country, and Iraq is landlocked for the most part except for a tiny bit of coast on the Persian Gulf. Naval ships are used as transportation, and carriers for their mobility, but not sure of foreign submarines. The States use them as nuclear ballistic missile platforms, and can be used for ballistic missile strikes, but I don't know if the sub he said was sent to afganistan has those capabilities. Also, landlocked countries usually don't have proficient navies, so patrolling the closest sea is a tad irrelevent.

As for makeup on guys, I knew of a guy who would use some concealer around his eyes to cover the dark spots. Never would have known if someone didn't tell me they caught him doing it. As for being called a homo for it, or for any reason, is a little juvenile. As is being worried that someone might call you a homo. I imagine a man who uses makeup is probaly secure enough in his sexuality to brush off such a comment.
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Old 05-20-2003, 10:22 AM   #59
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Originally posted by munik
The States use them as nuclear ballistic missile platforms, and can be used for ballistic missile strikes, but I don't know if the sub he said was sent to afganistan has those capabilities. Also, landlocked countries usually don't have proficient navies, so patrolling the closest sea is a tad irrelevent.
OFF TOPIC: The sub ("Sælen") was, I believe, not equipped to launch missiles, which wasn't its job either. It, along with the corvette (Olfert Fisher), were to monitor the sea off-shore from Iraq, in order to track and possibly intercept ships that had no business in the area, as well as generally reporting the going-ons of the area (help in catching blokade runners, illegal arms dealers, smugglers, ect. that the war was likely to stir up), not for combatting the almost non-existing navy of Iraq.

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