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Old 05-21-2003, 07:12 AM   #81
ShadowTemplar
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C'Jack: I'm thinking along the very same lines, but I still think that you are confusing Facism and Totalitarism:

Communism is Totalitarian.

Facism is totalitarian.

Nazism is totalitarian.

But Communism isn't Facistic

Neither is Nazism.

*Note* Somewhere else on this board I proved that religion will always be totalitarian, and that totalitarian regimes wil always be religious. I could try to dig it up for you, if you're interested.

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Old 05-21-2003, 05:04 PM   #82
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Why I think Christians are Fascist...

fas·cism n. 1. Often Fascism. a. (1)(_A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator_), (2) (_stringent socioeconomic controls,_) (3)_suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,_) (4)(_and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism._)

(1) The Dictator here is Jesus or God whatever you prefer.

(2) Socioeconomic control. They want to control everything from what we buy, to what read, and watch on TV. Even the games we play on computers.

(3) Suppression where to begin with Christians. Like above they want to control everything we see and think. In the past they have done this in some very cruel ways. Burning people at the stake isn't very godly if you ask me. Kind of goes hand in hand with shoving Jews in an oven wouldn't you say. The Christians did it before the Nazis.

(4) Each demented little branch on Christians think they are holier than all the rest and certainly holier than any other religion. Racism if made a little more broader to include religion would cover this. I have known very few Christians to tolerate people of other religious backgrounds. They do this to the point of segregation and shunning of people of other religions. The all time ketch fraise "Your going to hell."

Christians are by birth right Bigots. Bigot comes from "BI-GOT" which is old English for "BY-GOD"


-QUOTE------
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Old 05-22-2003, 03:18 AM   #83
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Why I think you're blaming the past and again single crazy old guys of Christianity. Is it that totalitarian these days?

Quote:
CosmosJack:
The Dictator here is Jesus or God whatever you prefer
Dictators are always people who interpret god's words differently.

Quote:
Socioeconomic control. They want to control everything from what we buy, to what read, and watch on TV. Even the games we play on computers.
Quite agree. They would want to if they could. You can measure their fascism by the amount of control they really have. It's insignificant.

Quote:
Each demented little branch on Christians think they are holier than all the rest and certainly holier than any other religion. Racism if made a little more broader to include religion would cover this. I have known very few Christians to tolerate people of other religious backgrounds. They do this to the point of segregation and shunning of people of other religions. The all time ketch fraise "Your going to hell."
I know alot of christians who tolerate other non-christians. And I don't see Holy Inquisition in white cones flaming the non-christian world with terror. Thing's changed. It's not fascistic anymore neither it's totalitarian (not sure about the last one. I'd like to see what ShadowT can dig up.).

Quote:
ShadowTemplar:
*Note* Somewhere else on this board I proved that religion will always be totalitarian, and that totalitarian regimes wil always be religious. I could try to dig it up for you, if you're interested.
I'd like to listen
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Old 05-22-2003, 09:34 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Why I think you're blaming the past and again single crazy old guys of Christianity. Is it that totalitarian these days?

[...]

I know alot of christians who tolerate other non-christians. And I don't see Holy Inquisition in white cones flaming the non-christian world with terror. Thing's changed. It's not fascistic anymore neither it's totalitarian (not sure about the last one. I'd like to see what ShadowT can dig up.).
Lemme put it this way (approximate years are added, incase you want to doublecheck with your historybook):
  • When Christianity was a newly fledged cult in ancient Rome (yr 0 - approx. 400) it was suppressed, because it was an enemy of the state. It behaved much like it does now. Charity, counsiling, ect, along with a massive advertisement campaign.
  • Once it had outmatched all other cults in size and power (approx. 400), it was no longer oppressed. Then it began a regime of utter terror, as all other cults were brutally suppressed, and it consolidated its position as the greatest power factor in the Empire.
  • When it wanted to get into Scandinavia (I don't have a year range on that, records vary, but it set it's eyes on Scandinavia pretty soon after having conquered the rest of Europe), it played nice again. It bought slaves and set them free, it cured people (by herbs, not miracles, mind, it preached tolerance and understanding.
  • Once it had a foothold (approx. 1000), it started brutally suppressing the old faith and culture.
  • Then came the Reformation (15-something, I think), during which Christianity was kicked hard in the butt. Once again it was oppressed, and it remains so to this day. And it suddenly started playing nice again.

The pattern that I'm seeing is: When out of power, Christianity (and, for that matter, all other religions as well) behaves nicely, preaches tolerance, forgiveness, and understanding. But when it is in power, it behaves in a way that doesn't leave Nazism or Communism anything behind.

Now, I'm not saying that this will happen instantly, but power corrupts, and it attracts the corrupted. And Christianity (and religion in general) has a notoriously poor history of ferreting out corrupt(ed) leaders.

So, I'm predicting that, should religion achive power over a society, it will gradually degenerate until it is (both mentally and technologically) at the stage of the Inquisition. And if you look at what's happened to those countries that have had Islamic revolutions, you'll see that they lend credibility to this theory.

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Dictators are always people who interpret god's words differently.
Well, the priest is a pocket dictator. By the very fact that he claims to preach the truth. The-one-and-only-be-all-and-end-all-thruth. Sounds pretty dictatoric to me...

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Quite agree. They would want to if they could. You can measure their fascism by the amount of control they really have. It's insignificant.
So, because Nazism is not in control, it's no longer totalitarian? Hmmm... And because Fascism is no longer in control, it's no longer facistic? I'm sure that you can see where the logic fails.

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
I'd like to listen
Sure, here goes:

1) A religion is a group of people sharing similiar beliefs.

2) In order for a group of people to share similiar beliefs, these beliefs must be invented (or defined, if you like that word better), as they cannot be documented.

3) In order for the beliefs to be fairly uniform (crossref: pnt 1), they must be defined by a relatively small group of people.

4) Since the decisions made by this group of people concerns faith, they must be taken unquestioningly, on face value (questioning them/trying to prove them would be an application of rationalism, which would mean that the end result would be deviod of faith, regardless of the outcome).

5) Since any group of people will, over time, work to obtain greater power (crossref: Social classes), the priesthood will, over time, consolidate its position at the top of society*, unless another class keeps them from getting to the top of society (ie: Keeps them at the bottom of society).

*Remember that there is no way that you can talk back to them without being branded a heretic (crossref: pnt 4)

6) Any class which is allowed to consolidate its position at the top of society unopposed will, over time, become permanently reactionary (if you're at the top, you desire a status quo, (crossref: pnt 5)).

7) Since the priesthood will become permanently reactionary over time, if they are at the top of society, society will become permanently reactionary over time.

8) Any permanently reactionary society is a totalitarian society.

9) Totalitarian regimes survive on the ignorance of the people.

Therefore:

All religions will become totalitarian unless they are kept at the bottom of society, ie: Are being oppressed.

And

All religions promote ignorance, as it serves the dual role of making people more suceptible to their preachings, thereby making it harder to oppress said religions, and enforcing totalitarian ideologies once in power.

q.e.d.

EDIT: I forgot: The above only proves that religion is totalitarian, but not that Totalitarism is religious. That goes as follows:

1) Totalitarism is based on irrationality (Nazis saying that they are the übermenchen, Commies saying that wheat planted in a cornfield will become corn over a few generations, because all that matters to your development is you environment, not your inheiritance (no wonder they ended up starving)).

2) Since it is irrational, it cannot be proven, and so must be believed.

3) Religion is the organised preaching/adherance to irrational beliefs.

4) Pts 2) and 3), when put together, lead, logically, to the following conclusion: Totalitarism is always religious.

q.e.d.

I posted this in the Ravening beast called Ignorance thread (which by the way I’ve just bumped).


Last edited by ShadowTemplar; 05-22-2003 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 05-23-2003, 04:24 AM   #85
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ShadowT, I liked your post. Quite a mind job and thanks for history lecture. Think you're right, well if not thinking too carefully (always a sceptic). I was confused first by the common thinking of the word religius. Still dictator's only Jesus and god's a method and a very clever one if people follow it for 2000 years.

Quote:
So, because Nazism is not in control, it's no longer totalitarian? Hmmm... And because Fascism is no longer in control, it's no longer facistic? I'm sure that you can see where the logic fails.
NO, no, no! I never wanted to questioned logic, I just ment that their control is now as you say and I call associatively in a "sheep stage". It's insignificant because we live in scientific era, the most profound of all times, and I think that it's highly unklikely to be another totalitarian regime (I mean big one leading to WWIII or something). Humanity has experienced much of it already. I'm optimistic about that.
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Old 05-23-2003, 06:47 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
ShadowT, I liked your post. Quite a mind job and thanks for history lecture. Think you're right, well if not thinking too carefully (always a sceptic). I was confused first by the common thinking of the word religius.
Ok, that didn't make much sense to me, but I reckon that you say that you agree on at least part of it, right?

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Still dictator's only Jesus and god's a method and a very clever one if people follow it for 2000 years.
Very, very clever. Has worked for far longer than 2kyrs. Christianity didn't invent that. And it still works.

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
NO, no, no! I never wanted to questioned logic, I just ment that their control is now as you say and I call associatively in a "sheep stage". It's insignificant because we live in scientific era, the most profound of all times, and I think that it's highly unklikely to be another totalitarian regime (I mean big one leading to WWIII or something). Humanity has experienced much of it already. I'm optimistic about that.
When I look around the world, I see religion on the rise, not on the wane. In Europe, the arrival of radical Muslim immigrants/refugees have caused a responding radicalisation of the local Christian groups, the ethnic/religious conflicts in ex-Jugoslavia, the clearly religiously motivated conflicts in Israel and Northern Ireland, the rising Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East, the Shiiti (sp?) powergrap in Iraq, Bush's Christian-fundamentalist rethoric. All of this points towards a new Dark Age. Never have I so hoped that I am being wrong and overly paranoid, but I cannot help but wonder what should become of the current world order.

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Old 05-23-2003, 11:06 AM   #87
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Quote:
When I look around the world, I see religion on the rise, not on the wane. In Europe, the arrival of radical Muslim immigrants/refugees have caused a responding radicalisation of the local Christian groups, the ethnic/religious conflicts in ex-Jugoslavia, the clearly religiously motivated conflicts in Israel and Northern Ireland, the rising Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East, the Shiiti (sp?) powergrap in Iraq, Bush's Christian-fundamentalist rethoric. All of this points towards a new Dark Age. Never have I so hoped that I am being wrong and overly paranoid, but I cannot help but wonder what should become of the current world order.
Nothing bad'll happen. Hey, rush up! You're focusing only on the negative. Mtv's still alive. As long as it lives no other Inquisition could compete with it. No I mean it, there's nothing to worry about. Sure it's a bit crisis around the world, it's just we're facing something new.
But consider that, muslim terrorists don't bring sympathy for their religion. Bush speaks christian only as an opposition to the same muslim terrorists and personally I think it's a needed action for his part (for now). Israel is always in war, this permanent situation has encreased due to worldwide terrorism encrease. Iraq is so weak now that this powergrap is not surprising at all.
Pneumonia is everywhere, it may also be terrorist weapon, still China is not gonna adopt islam.
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Old 05-23-2003, 12:14 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
(1984....book by Orson Wells..least I think he was the author....good book, read it if you haven't, it might change some of your minds on banning nazism and such)
LOL, George Orwell, hehe good one man!!!


Peace & Ting

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Old 05-23-2003, 05:22 PM   #89
ET Warrior
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
LOL, George Orwell, hehe good one man!!!
Oh yeah.....I......knew.....that..........GAH!!!

Sometimes I get confused with author names



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