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Old 05-20-2003, 10:27 PM   #1
Jah Warrior
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The Ratrace

Well, a bee thats been firmly residing in my bonnet is this:-

We are born and from that point we are basically destined to pay taxes. We have no hope of getting a house unless we get a mortgage. The way i see it is that we are like worker ants, slaving away for faceless regimes.

Whatever happened to the way things used to be in pre-government (civilisation?!?!) times??? When a man could go into the wild and build him self a house from trees that he had cut down with his own hand, grow his own crops.

Why do we not get the choice to opt out of society and live our own way?

I never asked for the governemet to provide anything for me and I certainly wouldnt want them to if i had a choice in the matter!

healthcare? pffft
Pension? pffft
Street lights? pffft
Armies? Double pffft!!!

whoever said that slavery was abolished didnt really understand teh concpet imho.


Peace & Ting

Jah
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Old 05-20-2003, 11:34 PM   #2
Dagobahn Eagle
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Whoa, Laizzes-faire anarchism..

Health care
So, who's going to heal you if you break your leg and can't afford to pay for it? Your dad?

Pension
Question: What are you going to do when you turn 80? Beg on the street? Or are you still going to flip burgers from your wheelchair?

Street lights
I agree. When I drive down the road the last thing I want is some annoying street light to light up the road so that I see that a huge tree has fallen over it. I'd also fare a lot better without having to see that car coming towards me in the left lane with its lights turned off, just as I'm about to enter the left lane.

Armies
Er.. yeah.
They certainly helped us against the Soviets, nazis, and Talibans. Without our armies we'd have been a multi-language country speaking German, French, Queen's English, Russian, and Arabic. Freedom? Protection from foreign powers? I agree, waste of tax money. I'd rather die in a nazi death camp too.. not.

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Old 05-21-2003, 12:45 AM   #3
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Re: The Ratrace

Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
When a man could go into the wild and build him self a house from trees that he had cut down with his own hand, grow his own crops.
You can do that, no one says you can't or stops you from doing it.
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Old 05-21-2003, 02:27 AM   #4
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The wood, however, would have to come from somewhere (either private or communal ground), and have to be paid for. Same with the hut, and you'd most likely be forced to pay taxes for the hut no matter how small it was, where it was, or who the land piece belonged to.

That's:
- Payment for wood (and insulation, etc.)
- Payment for property
- Taxation on property
- Payment for seeds (first year, maybe you can replant after that)

I'm not saying I agree with Jah, I'm just clarifying his points.

I actually agree in one way, I wish life was an anarchy or something like that sometimes. BUT it's not a good system at all. Your hut, for example, would most likely get taken over by some gang due to the fact that no one was there to defend you (ie. law enforcement). So you'd have to gang up, and eventually it wouldn't be an anarchy, but several "dictatorships" made up of houndreds of different armed gangs in every state of the USA.

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Old 05-21-2003, 02:45 AM   #5
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That's only if you still choose to interact with society. I got the impression that he wanted to get away from it, hence the "opt out of society" statement. If you are away from everyone, no one will come collect taxes from you. And you would choose not to pay them. If you are away from everyone, no one will care, or come get you. Laws are for those who wish to participate in society. Out of sight, out of mind.
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Old 05-21-2003, 07:31 AM   #6
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Re: Re: The Ratrace

Quote:
Originally posted by munik
You can do that, no one says you can't or stops you from doing it.
except society.

Look man, we are born to pay tax. The governments have no interest in our welfare, only in our ability to keep paying tax.

Eagle, you aint clarifying my points in the slightest, quite the opposite.

to quote you:-

That's:
- Payment for wood (and insulation, etc.)
- Payment for property
- Taxation on property
- Payment for seeds (first year, maybe you can replant after that)


Payment, payment, payment, tax, tax, tax. errrr nah! I aint talking about even having ANY money. The barter system is way more sensible and worked in times of old. Its the whole system of ownership that i disagree with, The native Ameriocans had the right idea before teh europeans came over and claimed teh land as their own property. The concept of ownership was not even known by the Native Americans...

This is what I'm getting at. They never had to pay money to their chief or what not, they were truly free people until the so-called pioneers showed up and started murdering them.


Peace & Ting

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Old 05-21-2003, 07:58 AM   #7
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If what you suggest was to come true, you'd have to sacrifice 9/10ths of the world population.

The population that a given piece of land (in temperate climates) can support has been increased tenfold by the structure of our society and, more importantly, by the advances that said society has achived. Therefore it is not only a biological but also moral imperative that civilized society is maintained.

Munik: No, you can't just go out in the forest and make a home: Every strip of land on Earth is owned by someone/some agency. Even the South Pole.

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Old 05-21-2003, 09:23 AM   #8
Jah Warrior
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yeah templar you are right, the world is over-populated.

I fail to see what right anyone has to call a piece of land their own. Surely we all have as much right to roam the world and select a piece of land for our self.


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Old 05-21-2003, 06:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
If what you suggest was to come true, you'd have to sacrifice 9/10ths of the world population.

The population that a given piece of land (in temperate climates) can support has been increased tenfold by the structure of our society and, more importantly, by the advances that said society has achived. Therefore it is not only a biological but also moral imperative that civilized society is maintained.
That is pretty much how it is in a nut shell

Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Munik: No, you can't just go out in the forest and make a home: Every strip of land on Earth is owned by someone/some agency. Even the South Pole.
While this is true. I know of a few people that own their own land enough to live on. They choose to live it "Ruff" you could say. No support from the government and only go to the store maybe 1 time a month to get the basics. They sail carved nick knacks.

The government isn't going to tell you exactly how to live, but you still have to pay taxes. Than again if you don't make any money they aren't really going to make you pay taxes on it.

If you want to "Ruff It" move to Alaska. Go build a log house on 10 acres of unclaimed land. Set there for 7 years and it's yours. The Alaskan Government will send you a check for $1000 every year or something like that. That should cover whatever you may need.

If I got the details here a little wrong I was told this by guy from Alaska I didn't research it any.


-QUOTE------
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
While this is true. I know of a few people that own their own land enough to live on. They choose to live it "Ruff" you could say. No support from the government and only go to the store maybe 1 time a month to get the basics. They sail carved nick knacks.

The government isn't going to tell you exactly how to live, but you still have to pay taxes. Than again if you don't make any money they aren't really going to make you pay taxes on it.

If you want to "Ruff It" move to Alaska. Go build a log house on 10 acres of unclaimed land. Set there for 7 years and it's yours. The Alaskan Government will send you a check for $1000 every year or something like that. That should cover whatever you may need.

If I got the details here a little wrong I was told this by guy from Alaska I didn't research it any.
That is exactly what i had in mind!!! perfect, where do i sign up?

oh yeah i prefer to call it self-sufficiency rather than "ruffin it" LOL


Peace & Ting

Jah
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:16 PM   #11
Dagobahn Eagle
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Jah, I wasn't fighting for your side, I was clarifying today's situation.

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Old 05-22-2003, 02:16 AM   #12
Jah Warrior
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Jah, I wasn't fighting for your side, I was clarifying today's situation.
yeah and i was making a joke hence the:-


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Old 05-22-2003, 04:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
That is exactly what i had in mind!!! perfect, where do i sign up?
Hmm I don't know look up stuff about Alaska maybe go to the state web page.


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Old 05-24-2003, 01:14 AM   #14
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Re: Re: Re: The Ratrace

Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Look man, we are born to pay tax. The governments have no interest in our welfare, only in our ability to keep paying tax.
I disagree. If you choose not to pay taxes, do you think that you will be forced to? Do you think that the government has everyone under it's thumb? Just try it, avoid some taxes, see if you get caught. I neglected to pay state income taxes one year. I do not pay state or federal taxes on my cigarettes. I used to purchase alcohol without paying taxes on it. There are probaly numerous pirated or bootlegged items or contraband that I do not pay taxes on.

I am still a free man, and have not been subject to the governments retribution.

You can resist if you choose to, even in small gestures. I was not born to pay taxes, nor have I adopted such a defeatist attitude either.
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Old 05-24-2003, 01:41 AM   #15
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The Ratrace

Quote:
Originally posted by munik
[B]I disagree. If you choose not to pay taxes, do you think that you will be forced to? [B]
Yes they will put you in jail...

Quote:
Originally posted by munik
I neglected to pay state income taxes one year. I do not pay state or federal taxes on my cigarettes. I used to purchase alcohol without paying taxes on it. There are probaly numerous pirated or bootlegged items or contraband that I do not pay taxes on.
Virtually nobody pays tax on cigarettes in the UK, with the continent so close most go on booze cruises and bring back duty frees, i havent paid tax on tobacco in 4-5 years.


You really are missing the point, My point is that we have no choice in whether we participate in society or not.

You work, you pay tax on the money your earn, everything you buy you then pay further tax on. I dont want anything form the government, hell i dont even want a government!!! My point is that you are not born free, you are obligated to pay tax from the minute you are born...


Peace & Ting

Jah
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Old 05-24-2003, 03:01 AM   #16
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Ratrace

First you say this...
Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Yes they will put you in jail...
...then you say this.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Virtually nobody pays tax on cigarettes in the UK, with the continent so close most go on booze cruises and bring back duty frees, i havent paid tax on tobacco in 4-5 years.
So, if they will put you in jail, yet you haven't paid tax in 4-5 years, how come you are not in jail? It's because they won't put in you jail, point proven.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
You really are missing the point, My point is that we have no choice in whether we participate in society or not.
I am not missing your point, I see it clearly. I just disagree with it, as I believe it to be incorrect. You always have a choice, but while the option to go down the path less traveled is not available for the sheep, it does not mean that the rest of us do not have a choice.

Society does not care for those who seperate themselves from it. They forget and move on, because it is useless to dwell on it. You do not know anyone who has left society, as you are still a part of it. So, people can do what I have explained, but you will never know about them. As neither of you care to know about each other anymore.

You can always say that is impossible to do it, which is fine and dandy if it is not something you ever plan to do. But, if you hold onto that ideal, while also yearning to leave society, you are beaten down by fear. The first step is always the hardest.
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Old 05-24-2003, 06:08 AM   #17
Jah Warrior
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good god,

I'm gonna need to spell this out for ya aint i..

The reason i've not paid tax on cigarettes is because my parents go on a booze cruise, now for those unfamiliar with the term that means they go to france once every 6 weeks and buy alcohol and cigarettes while this ferry is at sea it is in international waters and british duty & VAT is not applicable. Thus Booze & tobacco are not taxed.... understand? You are right they wont put me in jail because i've used a loophole in the law for want of a better word.

Ok now you say that you are not forced to pay tax...

Go into a shop and ask to buy something without paying VAT (sales tax). They will tell you to bugger off., simple as that. there is no way to not pay tax.

If you get a job, then the company automatically deducts your taxes and pays them for you. If you work for yourself you will be audited heavily yearly to see how much tax you owe. You can't simply turn round and say that you dont want to pay tax because you dont agree with it. They'll slap you in jail before your feet hit the ground sunshine!!!

The only people that can get away without paying tax are people with VERY clever accountants. In which case you will get convicted of fraud and "TAX EVASION" which is punishable by jail (ask Al Capone)

If you work munik, next time you get your pay cheque have a look and see if you have tax deducted, if so go and ask your boss for that tax back and see what he says. (at least one person will go home that evening with a massive grin on their face)



For the record i do know some people that have "opted out" of society and they live in a commune. They are thinkers, artists and by all account damn fine people, They grow their own food and basically do their own thing, but they get their balls busted by the police all the time. A price of being enlightened you could say.


Peace & Ting

Jah
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Old 05-24-2003, 11:20 PM   #18
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I missed the "duty free" when you talked about cigarettes. When I said I do not pay taxes, that meant that they are required, yet I do not pay them. I was using that as an example of one of the ways in which I do not pay the required taxes. You telling me that everyone buys the same thing I do, but in an area where taxes aren't required is irrelevant to the tax discussion. Now, after seeing how I misread it, I am puzzled as to why you added that to your post.

I thought this whole thing was about seperating from society. I said stuff about taxes as I believe if you seperate yourself from a society that taxes you, then you won't have to pay taxes. Your two examples, Sales Tax when you purchase an item from a vendor, and Income Tax when you hold a job, hold very little water. If you are seperate from society, then why are you buying things from a vendor and holding a job in that society? Doesn't make any sense at all.

There are things that I choose not to pay taxes on, and things that I do because the tax free alternative is less desirable for me. I pay taxes where I work, and that is because I have no other choice if I wish to work for that company. If I don't want to pay income tax, I can look for a job that pays me under the table. But, I am sastified where I am now. Also, I don't know how they do it in your country, but here in the States your income taxes are due at the end of the year (sort of). Your W-4(or 2, I forget) indicates the amount of taxes with held per paycheck, then at the end of the year you must figure out if you overpaid, underpaid, or got it right. Then you owe the difference, or get a refund. So, I can still work for my current employer, but not pay taxes. I just have to rely on luck that the IRS does not audit me. I have also avoided sales tax on numerous occasions. You must not be very imaginative when it comes to situations that are different then yours.

I do see your point, and understand what you are saying. It is impossible to get away from taxes. I get it. I don't buy it, but I get it. I just think that is a terrible way to go through life, never attempting to think about an alternative, or opposite, idea.
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Old 05-27-2003, 11:04 AM   #19
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Jah warrior, you should come and live in the outback of Australia. There are plenty of kangaroos. No one would notice if you just went out and supported yourself.

However, if you are serious, I would suggest only bringing what you were born with and see how you fare. Remember no government help, but I'm sure some Aboriginal elders would help you out and get you on your way.

That is if your serious. You talk the talk, would like to see you walk the walk. A chance for your dream to come true.


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Old 05-27-2003, 04:02 PM   #20
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I might just do that funclown.

I think i would struggle to get a visa or permission to live in Oz, they dont like to let people with criminal records migrate... hehe the irony.


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Old 05-27-2003, 06:58 PM   #21
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Read Walden by Henry David Thoreau. Emerson talked it, Thoreau walked it.

Even if you move out to the woods, I would not advise doing anything to anger the goverment where you live. Most will accept people wanting to 'disconnect' from society, but you are never 'free' from society.

You might want to learn about the Social Contract theory, particularly John Locke's.


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Old 05-28-2003, 06:38 AM   #22
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Probably depends on what you did. But it certainly doesn't fare well for you chances.


No, I am no relation to Krusty.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:34 AM   #23
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Damn record prevents me from going to Canada. Not that big a deal, as I'm not missing much. I just adopt the "sour grapes" mentality.
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