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View Poll Results: Should seatbelt wearing stay a law?
Yes 22 84.62%
No 4 15.38%
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Thread: Seatbelts
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Old 07-09-2003, 10:37 PM   #41
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When I first saw this thread, I thought it was a survey to learn how many people buckled up. Then I saw the topic of the poll.

Don't get me wrong here. I love America, and I love Americans. But I cannot for the life of me understand these few Americans who willingly put themselves at risk and allow others to put themselves at risk in the name of "democracy" and "freedom". You're not less free or less republican if you wear a freaking seat belt. If you are, then tell me where in the constitution it says that you can't be forced to wear a seat belt. Same with sitting on the back of a van.

Many of the posts in this thread are fallacies, but I'll just second C' Jais:
Quote:

Yes, it should be required by law. It's such a small thing, it [almost] doesn't hurt, it takes no time to do and you'll be all the better for it. I can't imagine why people would want to drive without it.

It's like those lines on train stations where they mark how close to the rails you can go before the train stops. Surely it's up to people themselves to determine how far they're willing to risk their own life?
Nobody on these boards have the least of an argument to not wear seat belts maybe save from this [img] http://www.boomspeed.com/insanesith/alizee.gif[/img] girl, who is unfortunate enough to have an allergy (to IS: Keep wearing a seat belt).

Quote:
Not really a lead, just pointing out that giving up freedoms for a feeling of safety COULD eventually lead to this.
Thank you, my democratic friend, for so nicely proving my point. Have a good day.

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Old 07-09-2003, 11:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Thank you, my democratic friend, for so nicely proving my point. Have a good day.

uhhhh, what point did I prove?



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Old 07-10-2003, 12:09 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
But not wearing a seatbelt would only hurt someone if my body got launched out of the car in an accident and my body were to slam INTO somebody.......but the odds of that happening are not good.
I've been in a car accident. Had I not been wearing a seatbelt I would've killed my dad as my body would've been thrown straight into his ribs. Trust me, unless you're driving alone, the odds seem low now but they could play out different in a crash. And beyond that, killing a family member (that was wearing a seatbelt and would've otherwise survived) because you weren't wearing one, that's the type of thing that'll mess you up. Many people think they're infallible (not saying you in particular do ET. I do though, whew, learned the hard way many a time ) and then the bad things happen and stuff gets royally screwed up. Being forced to wear a seatbelt, it's protecting you even if you don't think it'll ever come into play. It's like having to wear a hardhat or safety goggles before being allowed into certain plants or onto certain sites, it's protecting you whether you want it or not.

And yeah, I understand that seatbelts don't save everyone but they save far more than if people didn't wear'em (...that sentence make sense?)


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Old 07-10-2003, 04:51 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pisces
And yeah, I understand that seatbelts don't save everyone but they save far more than if people didn't wear'em (...that sentence make sense?)
Makes sense, yes it does.


And for the record, I ALWAYS wear my seatbelt, I am never in a car without one. I am just saying I think that it should be a choice. I dont think it should be a law. The odds of me going skydiving and my chute not opening correctly and the wind blowing me into a situation where I fall on someone on the ground, crushing us both are miniscule, but it still could happen, and skydiving is still legal..............just something I thought of.


And just curious, how did that accident play out if you would hit your dad? Were you broadsided? Not wanting to sound insensitive, i'm just curious.



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Old 07-10-2003, 04:55 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Don't get me wrong here. I love America, and I love Americans. But I cannot for the life of me understand these few Americans who willingly put themselves at risk and allow others to put themselves at risk in the name of "democracy" and "freedom". You're not less free or less republican if you wear a freaking seat belt. If you are, then tell me where in the constitution it says that you can't be forced to wear a seat belt. Same with sitting on the back of a van.

I dont recall anyone mentioning that it is unconsitutional to make such a law, in fact, it seems all but two support it being a law. I just think that It's a personal choice. Smoking cigarrettes will kill you almost certainly, but it's legal, if the government REALLY wants to protect us, why dont we make cigarettes illegal? That'll save a LOT of lives, probably nearly as many if not MORE than making wearing seatbelts a law. I dont know for sure, because I dont know the exact numbers for deaths related to these, and i'm too tired to think about looking them up.



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Old 07-16-2003, 02:45 AM   #46
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You're right, it might seem like a small thing, but a too big number dies in traffic accidents in my opinion, losing your life because you refused to wear a belt around your body is a meaningless way to go.

About cigarette banning, I've lost two grandparents to tobacco and I'd love to see cigarettes banned. If nobody smoked, 400 000 less Americans would die each year. Each year. However, I believe people have learned from the attempt to ban alcohol in the States in the 20's (which went horribly wrong) and figured out that you cannot ban something that's so widely used.

We can, however, regulate tobacco any way we can. I fully support the banning of all forms of tobacco advertisements and the banning of smoking on all public eating/drinking facilities such as resturants and bars. Also, I believe the age limit should be increased, at least to 21.

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Old 07-17-2003, 01:11 PM   #47
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Okay seatbelts are both life saving and killers. They can break your ribs or either break your ribs and save you. If there should be a law to wear seatbelts first they have to make safe seatbelts. If not they are just going to make a law that is going to kill us!!!!! These new seatbelt should be safe and comfortable before they put a law to wear a weapon. What if a robber comes up and has no gun? All he has to do is pull the seat belt around your neck, choke you, throw you out of the car and steal it.



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Old 07-17-2003, 11:23 PM   #48
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What if a robber comes up and has no gun? All he has to do is pull the seat belt around your neck, choke you, throw you out of the car and steal it.
Thats why I dont wear a seatbelt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111



But seriously, seatbelts do break ribs. But if you are going so fast and hit so hard as to break ribs... dude, you would have died in that accident, almost guaranteed. My father had three broken ribs from his seatbelt in his accident. The cop said that if it hadnt been for the belt, he would have been thrown through the side window of the other car.

Sure, they hurt. Like a bullet proof vest. But the alternative?


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Old 07-18-2003, 02:24 AM   #49
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The same way as I don't wear as seat belt as they can hurt me when my car crashes, I won't ever wear a parachute if I am to jump out of a plane 100ft over the ground as it hurts to get it over me.

But enough teasing. Seriously, seat belts save more people than they kill. Guaranteed.

Funny thing is, seat belts have not been installed for buses in Norway until the last year and it's not even a law to wear one yet. And if questioned on wheter or not it should be a law, people would go "no, it's my body, my right", pretty much the same way as you do about your car belts. But are we right? No, I think not.

My old kayaking team's bus once crashed. Nobody got hurt, but we got shaken up pretty badly (as in emotionally) and my brother nearly got hit by a speeding car once. Since those two incidents I've been more careful about traffic.

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Old 08-04-2003, 05:58 PM   #50
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I think the law should stay for two reasons:

1. it's better to be safe than sorry.

2. if you get in a wreck, you will very likely get killed or seriously
injured if you are not wearing one.

although, if it's a BAD wreck sometimes a seatbelt won't save your life. (but maybe the air bags and curtains will?)

oh, and if a guy comes up to me and intends to steal my car, I will just run him over.
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Old 08-04-2003, 07:22 PM   #51
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I'd say it's a good thing, but there are many people who don't follow it. I was going to a concert one time and when we got to the building it was in, there was a wrecked car on display. The driver had not been wearing a seatbelt and was killed.

Better be safe than sorry.


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Old 08-08-2003, 03:00 PM   #52
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Exclamation what happens if you dont wear a seatbelt...

my hair cutter's twin sister's family were driving somewhere in a SUV and got in a wreck. there were 2 little girls in the middle row.
well....
the mom and dad were not wearing a seatbelt, and.....

...you know what happened!

so.. you never know when you are going to get in a wreck, so

you better buckle up!

oh, and the orphaned girs were wearing seatbelts, and 1 got

hurt, and the other one is perfectly fine (besides emotionally)

I said it once, I'll say it again;

Better be safe than sorry!
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Old 08-17-2003, 09:56 PM   #53
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Yes, it should remain a law.

Why? Because while statistically accidents actually INCREASE with seatbelt laws (people feel safer, so many drive more recklessly), it does tend to reduce accident FATALITIES.


So more accidents, but fewer deaths. I'm for it.


And yes, I think SUV's are a total waste of money and resources 99% of the time (I see rows and rows of them in my town with only one person in them each). And I'd rather I'll take a bruise from a seatbelt over getting my head through the windshield any day. ; p


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Old 08-18-2003, 02:06 AM   #54
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Quote:
And yes, I think SUV's are a total waste of money and resources 99% of the time
Wait until you get in an accident with one. I used to think the same thing...

But that's a different topic.


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Old 08-18-2003, 03:19 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Wait until you get in an accident with one. I used to think the same thing...

But that's a different topic.
This is as good a thread as a new one... I thought it was dead anyway

According to NHTSA, SUVs rollover in 37 percent of fatal crashes, compared to a 15 percent rollover rate for passenger cars._ Rollover crashes accounted for 53 percent of all SUV occupant deaths in single vehicle crashes in 1996. Only 19 percent of occupant fatalities in passenger cars occurred in similar crashes.

Smaller SUVs - with a wheelbase of less than 100 inches - had a disproportionately high incidence of fatal rollover crashes._ Small SUVs were involved in rollover crashes more than four times as often as the average passenger car.

Also, SUVs don't have to conform to the same safety standards as passenger cars... the standards for roof strength are insufficient according to Gillis (1988).

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) conducted a test designed to show how well vehicles protect the driver and passengers in a crash, midsized SUVs were given a rating of "good", "acceptable", "marginal" or "poor"._ None of the 13 SUVs tested was rated "good."_ Five were rated as "acceptable," three as "marginal," and five as "poor." Popular models including the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Nissan Pathfinder earned "marginal" ratings. "Poor" ratings went to models such as the Chevy Blazer, GMC Jimmy and the Isuzu Rodeo._ The tests measured how well head restraints and bumpers performed and damage to the vehicle's structure.

The largest SUVs had fewer driver deaths than average._ However mid-sized and smaller SUVs - like the Nissan Pathfinder, Suzuki Sidekick, and Jeep Wrangler - had driver death rates substantially higher than average._ In examining deaths per million passengers, SUVs had nearly the same death rates in accidents as small cars, but substantially more fatalities than mid-sized or large cars.

In a May 1999 study, the Institute found only two models of SUVs - the Mitsubishi Montero and certain models of the Chevy Blazer - had head restraints that merited a "good" rating. Most were listed as "marginal" or "poor."

SUVs and Light Trucks also are a danger to other, more conservative, drivers who are using passenger cars. Of the 5,259 fatalities caused when light trucks struck cars in 1996, 81 percent of the fatally injured were occupants of the car (Gabler, et al, 1998). In multiple-vehicle crashes, the occupants of the car are four times more likely to be killed than the occupants of the SUV (Traffic Safety Facts: 1998). In a side-impact collision with an SUV, car occupants are 27 times more likely to die (IIHS).

Auto manufacturers have maintained that the weight of SUVs make them dangerous to smaller cars, not the design. Yet a recent study (Bradsher, March 1999) by the NHTSA examined the design of many popular SUVs and found that the height and frames of SUVs make them extra lethal to people riding in smaller vehicles._ Differences in vehicle weight did not account for the extra risk.

Placement of headlights is also problematic for drivers of passenger cars, as the head lights of SUVs tend to be higher and shine into the front and, especially, the rear windscreens, blinding drivers of passenger cars. In addition, passenger cars have the ability to "see through" each other to see the brake lights (you know, the one mounted in the rear window) of other vehicles 1, 2, even 3 cars ahead. With an SUV in front, warning of sudden changes in traffic patterns is significantly reduced.

References:
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety

Gillis, Jack, 1988. The truck, van and 4x4 book. pg. 5.

Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, May 22, 1999. Status Report "Special Issue: Neck Injuries in Rear-End Crashes," Volume 34, No. 5.

Gabler, Hampton and Hollowell, William, March 1998.The Agressivity of Light Trucks and Vans in Traffic Crashes, U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Document 980908.

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, December 1997. Traffic Safety Facts 1996: A Compilation of Motor Vehicle Crash Data from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System and the General Estimates System.

Bradsher, Keith, March 2, 1999. Study Cites Fatal Design of Sport Utility Vehicles. New York Times.


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Old 08-18-2003, 03:30 AM   #56
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You've just gotta love a cuontry where people want to ban a car because it might roll over, but where sitting on the back of a freaking pickup truck is not considered hazardious enough to advocate a ban....

IMO, you're in far bigger trouble if you're on the back of a pickup that crashes, than if you are in an SUV that rolls over...

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Old 08-18-2003, 04:44 AM   #57
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In the state of Iowa, I found the following statistics at this .pdf document:


Fatalities & Injuries by Position
......................Number killed...................Number Injured
Driver............. 46........................ 3,229
Front Seat
Passenger........ 8........................... 1,008
Back Seat
Passenger........ 1............................. 158
Third+ Seat
Passenger........ 0............................. 1
Bus
Passenger........ 0............................. 0
Riding on
Exterior............. 2 (3.51%)........ 28 (0.63%)

{delted misc... such as mo-ped driver, etc.}
Total.................. 57 (100.00%).... 4,432 (100.00%)

I'm not sure what year these stats came from.... I didn't get that deep into the document, but "exterior" would be the bed of the pick up. If Iowa is indicative of the rest of the nation (and there is nothing to suggest that it is or isn't that I've seen), then riding in the bed of a pickup would be a negligible criteria.

Just to be sure though, I put the PickUp Truck in the same category as SUV... both are big, gas guzzling, heavy, and dangerous for other motorists... you know.. the ones in Saturns like mine


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Old 08-18-2003, 01:30 PM   #58
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Pretty solid evidence there, Skinwalker.

But look at when many of those studies were done. SUVs are still an emerging product, and I'm sure many of those problems have been corrected (well, not the damn headlights).

If that evidence was more recent, I might trust it more. But heck, one of them even goes back to 1988! Surely things have changed by now, and car manufacturers arent dumb. They're gonna see these things, and make changes accordingly. I know I've seen some incredibly wide SUVs driving around. Maybe a response to increased roll rates in crashes?

In any case, car developers move fast. The effects of a study published in 1999 could conceivably be seen in 2001.

I have my own personal experience to go on. I know I'd be dead if I was in my car. But maybe I just got lucky.

And Dagobahn... In my state (NY), it is illegal to ride in the back of a pickup truck. No restraints there, no real protection, etc.


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Old 08-18-2003, 09:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Fatalities & Injuries by Position
......................Number killed...................Number Injured
Driver............. 46........................ 3,229
Front Seat
Passenger........ 8........................... 1,008
Back Seat
Passenger........ 1............................. 158
Third+ Seat
Passenger........ 0............................. 1
Bus
Passenger........ 0............................. 0
Riding on
Exterior............. 2 (3.51%)........ 28 (0.63%)
{delted misc... such as mo-ped driver, etc.}
Total.................. 57 (100.00%).... 4,432 (100.00%)
Probably because a lot more people find themselves inside cars than the ones who find themselves on pickup backs.

Don't let the statistics fool you. If there was an equal amount of people riding on the back of pickups as there were people riding inside cars, sure, then the 46-to-1-scale would make sitting on the back of a pickup one of the safest mode of transportation around.

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Old 08-19-2003, 05:06 AM   #60
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Originally posted by ShockV1.89
If that evidence was more recent, I might trust it more. But heck, one of them even goes back to 1988! Surely things have changed by now, and car manufacturers arent dumb. They're gonna see these things, and make changes accordingly. I know I've seen some incredibly wide SUVs driving around. Maybe a response to increased roll rates in crashes?
Don't be too sure about the 'Surely things have changed by now'. It is a pretty common experience that companies of any product or service will twist, stretch or obfuscate around any research and law against their shortcomings for as long as they possibly can if it means a higher profit. They'll utilize the cheapest resources, workforce and subcontractors as much as they can to give the consumer the cheapest product, and if necessary prolong any antagonism against them by ways of stretching the truth of their product information and lawyers (if affordable).

The funny thing is that the consumers are really to blame in that the majority care not to look beyond their wallet to examine if a cheap product really is viable against the standards set for the product of that type. But then again, it's not easy for a single customer to pry the truth from the dealer nor have the necessary insight to make a sound judgement on every aspect of a given product, such as a car.

But for seat belts, I think any aspirant for a license should be presented with 3 things:

1 - A demonstration of a test crash of a vehicle (with dummies not wearing the seat belts of course) doing no more than 20 mph - even at that relatively low speed the damage potential is quite remarkable.

2 - Be presented with this question: Just because you feel confident enough to drive without a seat belt fastened, do you trust your fellow drivers to be as "competent" as you? - You're not alone on the road.

3 - Be presented with this question: Do you think that the ones that do crash and are seriously injured or killed because they didn't wear their seat belt felt any less confident about their driving skills than you do?


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Old 08-19-2003, 06:06 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
But look at when many of those studies were done. SUVs are still an emerging product, and I'm sure many of those problems have been corrected (well, not the damn headlights).

If that evidence was more recent, I might trust it more.
I have to admit that the studies are a bit more in favor of SUV's in some instances (I went to the IIHS website to see what was current).

Of the current models of mid-sized SUVs, 29 were evaluated for Frontal offset crashworthiness. Crashworthiness refers to how well a vehicle protects its occupants in a crash (IIHS, 2003).

11 received an overall "Good" rating , including the Volvo, BMW and Acura as well as the Lincoln Aviator and the Lexus SUVs.

6 received an overall "Average" rating, which included the Xterra, Land Rover and Durango.

10 received a "Marginal" rating, including Jeep Cherokee/Liberty, Pathfinder, Aztec, Rodeo, and Passport.

3 received an overall "Poor" rating, which were the Chevy Blazer, the Olds Bravada, and the GMC Jimmy/Envoy. The last two were the oldest models tested, but the Blazer included all models from 1995 to 2003.

A representative of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration stated before a congressional committe, "pickups and SUVs are involved in a higher percentage of rollovers than passenger cars" (NHTSA Statement, February 26, 2003). He went on to say:
Quote:
the rate of fatal rollovers for pickups is twice that for passenger cars and the rate for SUVs is almost three times the passenger car rate. Overall, rollover affects about three percent of passenger vehicles involved in crashes but accounts for 32 percent of passenger vehicle occupant fatalities. Single vehicle rollover crashes accounted for 8,400 fatalities in 2001. Rollover crashes involving more than one vehicle accounted for another 1,700 fatalities, bringing the total fatality count to more than 10,000.
The NHTSA also raised the issue of compatibility and stated that (in 2001) light trucks, which includes SUVs, were involved in about half of all two-vehicle accidents with passenger cars which resulted in fatalities. Of these crashes, 80% of the fatalities were of the passenger cars' occupants.

Other issues were discussed as correlators, such as seat belts and alcohol, but one cannot ignore the significance of the SUV. The SUV occupant survives the crash, but the passenger car occupant is killed more frequently.

SUVs have no purpose. Not for the average consumer anyway. The SUVs I see in Dallas are tricked out with rims and tires that I'm certain would never see the mud, rocks or rough terrain advertised in their television commercials.

They are oversized representations of oversized egos and compensation for those of low self-esteem and confidence. In short, they're status symbols. Just today, I passed an Excursion with no less than four Flat Screens showing some porno... and only one driver. I expect he's still alone, though probably occupied.

SUVs drink gas like thirsty elephants. They create problems in overcrowded parking lots. They back into other cars/people because their drivers can't operate them efficiently. They completely obliterate visibility of the road to other drivers behind them (other SUVs included!). They contribute to increased pollution by having more engine oil and places for it to drip from. They contribute to the increased depletion of petroleum reserves. They cost too much money.

And their added average length, when mathmatically calculated, contributes to a tremendous amount of additional traffic burden to street/highway intersections. --- Don't believe me... do the math. The average SUV is a couple feet longer than my car. Multiply two feet times the number of SUVs that go through a given intersection. Multiply this times the number of intersections in a given metropolitan area.


Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, (2003). MIDSIZE SUVS
Frontal offset crashworthiness evaluations: current models.
Found at: http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat...ary_midsuv.htm

NHTSA, (February 26, 2003).Statement for House hearing on SUV Safety Found at: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/annou...ny02-26-03.htm


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Old 08-19-2003, 08:33 PM   #62
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I was shocked to learn that volvo (with its reputation for building safe vehicles) had made an SUV... but I guess they were bought out by Ford awhile back, so I should have seen it coming.


Wasn't there a similar thing going on with the safety of mini-vans a decade or so ago?

Are full size vans as safe or less safe than Sport Utility Vehicles?


I guess statistically its still safer to fly, but more expensive and has more hassle involved (plus if you ARE in an accident, the chances of dying are much higher, just the chances of an accident very low compared to cars).


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Old 08-19-2003, 08:37 PM   #63
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Yeah, it should be... Only because if you don't end up getting killed... I'm paying taxes so that your life can be saved because you were to stupid to wear a seatbelt in the first place...
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Old 09-15-2003, 12:25 PM   #64
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i think no because u can still die with one on and i don't like it i think we have our freedoms so i think we should be able to choice if we want to wear them or not




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