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Old 09-05-2003, 09:52 PM   #41
CloseTheBlastDo
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heres something i have thought about, someone correct me if im wrong.

According to the bible, it says a man and a woman go together, and they become one. The one is a child, a combination of both parents (their genes, genetic trates) right? Or does it mean something else? So its possible that homosexuality is genetic, but its doubtful. Why? Because, in order for the child to be born gay, one of the parents must have been, or someone further down along the line (grandparents, great grandparents etc.) But it would have to have started somewhere. Someone must have made the choice to be gay in the first place, which would possibly start this whole thing, by spreading from parent to child. But what affect does homosexuality have on you genetically? None, that i know of. So the genes could not have had anything to do with this. They couldnt have been affected, could they? Or am i just all wrong on this... just a quick thought.
Before I answer this, I just quickly want to admit something I'm not proud of:
When I first read this, my first impulse was impatience and fustration. And I was preparing a terse response when I suddenly stopped, looked at what I was writing and realised I don't want to be the kind of person who makes these kinds of responses.
I shouldn't lose patience with people just because I think they are not following the debate properly.

Luke, I am sorry if I have spoken to you out of turn in previous posts.
No matter how much I disagree with you, that does not mean I have the right to speak to you any way I see fit. I hope you accept my apology.

That said, what you've just posted is a bit confusing if you don't mind me saying so - although I admittedly might not be exactly clear on what you mean.

First of all, you genetic make-up is not 'altered' by choices you make. i.e. if you chose to be gay as an adult (I assume in your test case, the subject was born hetrosexual), your genetic make-up will not suddenly alter to reflect this change.

Or maybe when you say 'made the choice to be gay', you DO mean they WERE born gay (through a chance genetic mutation perhaps?) and that's just another way of saying it...

Tell ya what - could you just clarify what you mean by 'choose to be gay' and then I'll finish my 'analysis' on your statement. Or maybe someone else get's exactly what your trying to say...

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Old 09-05-2003, 10:21 PM   #42
Kain
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Even the smallest of imbalance of chemicals in the brain can cause all kinds of things to happen. It dosen't need a heritage of homo or heterosexuality for someone to be born one way or the other.

Example: A common loving family has a child, but the child grows into Jeffery Dalmer. Were the parents sociopaths? No. Were they gay? Obviously not.

The point is it is possible to be born the exact opposite of your genes dictate, depending on how the brain's chemicals react to certain stimuli.
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Old 09-05-2003, 10:24 PM   #43
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
According to the bible,
Since this is a source based upon mythology and since information in the bible is unverifiable, we can disregard it altogether. In order to be valid as a source of information, it must be at least potentially falsifiable.

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
So its possible that homosexuality is genetic, but its doubtful. Why? Because, in order for the child to be born gay, one of the parents must have been, or someone further down along the line (grandparents, great grandparents etc.)
This is assuming that if homosexuality is genetic that it is monogenic and not polygenic... among assuming other things. Such as the fact that homosexuality is a trait that is either phenotypically obvious or not. It could very well be that homosexuality is a polygenic phenotype that may not be obvious unless certain conditions are met. These conditions might include the matching of various alleles at various loci of a multiple chromosomes. It doesn't have to be as simple and clear-cut as a single allele of a single locus of a single chromosome.

The human genotype has 23 pairs of 46 chromosomes. Each chromosome has about 20,000 genes. Genes come in pairs and the individuals of a pair are called alleles. One allele might be dominant, the other recessive (this is usually, though not always the case).

Things such as hemophilia are monogenic and very predictable in precentage of occurance in offspring if family history is known. Things such as "height" and "weight" are phenotypes that are polygenic and influanced by genetic as well as environmental conditions. That is to say, there are many different alleles on perhaps different chromosomes that can act in concert to affect height, as well as prenatal and postnatal introduction of various chemicals into the developing infant.

Current studies seem to indicate that homosexuality is a condition, or mode of being/form of existance, that is brought on by a combination of polygenic happenstance and possibly environmental influences of either pre- or post- natal nature or both.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
But it would have to have started somewhere. Someone must have made the choice to be gay in the first place, which would possibly start this whole thing, by spreading from parent to child.
Riiigght. Just like someone chose to have muscular dystrophy or hemophilia the first time and this passed down the line......

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
But what affect does homosexuality have on you genetically? None, that i know of. So the genes could not have had anything to do with this.
Ha. So because you are ignorant of something, it therefore must not exist. I'm glad science isn't satisfied with this kind of blind reasoning. We'll never find cures to MS, CP, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer, etc...

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Click Here
Not a valid source of information... heavy influance on irrefutable evidence of human mythology. This would have been an appropriate link in the Gays and Church thread, however.

I'm thinking that you didn't read my post about splitting threads above


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Old 09-05-2003, 10:28 PM   #44
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I won't be asked twice.

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According to the bible, it says a man and a woman go together, and they become one. The one is a child, a combination of both parents (their genes, genetic trates) right? Or does it mean something else?
I think it simply refers to their union. Many religions and philosophies refer to 'being one with' something, with the meaning of being closely knit together.

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So its possible that homosexuality is genetic, but its doubtful. Why? Because, in order for the child to be born gay, one of the parents must have been, or someone further down along the line (grandparents, great grandparents etc.) But it would have to have started somewhere. Someone must have made the choice to be gay in the first place, which would possibly start this whole thing, by spreading from parent to child.
Most interesting, and you're right, in order for something to be genetic it has to start someplace (and, to be a smartass, everything has to start someplace).

But if they chose to have a gay lifestyle (that's what I assume you mean), then there's a high chance they wouldn't bear children, right? And if it's in their genes, then it's in their genes. Period. I heard being exposed to radiation can damage your DNA, but I doubt homosexuality does.

So if it's in your genes, it's in your genes, whether or not you're homosexual.

Except from those two things, your post is a good explanation on why homosexuality (with 98% probability )isn't genetical.

Eagle.

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Old 09-05-2003, 11:02 PM   #45
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
lol, i started typing what i knew from my bible, then started searching for others that i didnt know about, or have forgotten, and i found a site that lists a great deal of them.

Click Here
Skin said it much better than me - "Since this is a source based upon mythology and since information in the bible is unverifiable, we can disregard it altogether. In order to be valid as a source of information, it must be at least potentially falsifiable."

Add to that the fact that never does it explicitly state homosexuality... only implies it.

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Old 09-06-2003, 01:19 AM   #46
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You asked for those verses Eldritch.... yes its implied, but it only matters to a christian, like its been stated before.


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then there's a high chance they wouldn't bear children, right?
I stand corrected...

To explain what i said better (even though it really doesnt matter now) you start heterosexual, and you become gay by your own choosing, and it gets passed down through the genes to the children, who then have a possibility of being gay. But i guess it was wrong.

Quote:
Since this is a source based upon mythology and since information in the bible is unverifiable, we can disregard it altogether. In order to be valid as a source of information, it must be at least potentially falsifiable.
The bible does have a lot more proof than mythology perhaps ill start that thread like closetheblastdo suggested?

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Luke, I am sorry if I have spoken to you out of turn in previous posts.
No matter how much I disagree with you, that does not mean I have the right to speak to you any way I see fit. I hope you accept my apology.
Thanks man! Dont worry about it
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Old 09-06-2003, 03:10 AM   #47
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
But i guess it was wrong.
I know it's nitpicky, but can't you just say, "I was wrong" rather than "I guess I was wrong" (which sort of implies you're not sure). If you dye your hair purple, you would not then have a "purple hair" gene with which to pass to your offspring. I think you get it, but I'm just making sure.
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The bible does have a lot more proof than mythology perhaps ill start that thread like closetheblastdo suggested?
That depends on what you consider proof. Greek Mythology, for example, can trace some of its stories to events that actually happened thousands of years ago. But just because mythos evolved out of an event that actually happened doesn't mean that it happened as described in the story.
The whole nature of mythology is that it's larger than life - fantastical, whimsical, interesting... makes for wonderful stories, but Greek mythology is no more a history of ancient Greece than the Bible is of ancient Jews and Christians.

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Old 09-06-2003, 07:39 AM   #48
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I just want to clarify something about the discussion were having.

Yes, thus far it has been mainly about whether homosexuality is inborn or not.

But I also want to be able to talk about about the morality of homosexuality too - which is a seperate issue.

OK, not whether homosexuality is a sin - that's more a religious topic that should be left in the other thread.

...but we can still talk about whether homosexulaity is right or wrong - irrespective of religious matters - right...?Or do I have to start yet ANOTHER thread?! Can we just agree this is a valid topic within this thread?

I just to clarify this so that someone doesn't accuse me of going against the title of the thread if I bring up moral matters.

Sorry to be a pain Skin! It's just that I can see it happpenning!

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Old 09-06-2003, 02:09 PM   #49
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Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
...but we can still talk about whether homosexulaity is right or wrong - irrespective of religious matters - right...?Or do I have to start yet ANOTHER thread?! Can we just agree this is a valid topic within this thread?
I can agree... it seems a valid point. It may actually have bearing on the desire (or lack of it) for some to find that it is an inheritable trait or predisposition.


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Old 09-07-2003, 12:51 AM   #50
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Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion. No no no! It is NOT there at birth. And you know why? Because you're a soft-headed little sack of flesh. Your brain is so underdeveloped at the point in the your life...

Love is not something born out of flesh and blood. It's not born out of the way cells are flinging chemicals back and forth. How many trees do you see that are in love? Love is born out of the mind.

Homosexuality isn't something that comes as a package deal at birth. But it isn't a choice either. At least not by definition. You can tell a person to stop "being gay". They can do it by definition. They won't be happy (that is the key here), but a gay person can stop seeing people of their own gender.

It's not much different than when some battered wife refuses to leave her abusive husband. You can convince her to move out, but will she ever really stop loving him?

Yes, it's exactly the same. We're not talking about who's sticking what where. We're talking about love and happiness. Keep that in mind.

Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind. You can't fully define homosexuality (nor heterosexuality) without being able to completely understand the human mind. And none of you do. No one does.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with your genes. I can almost guarantee you that there is NOT a chromosome on your DNA that marks down whether you're homosexual or not. There is NOT a chromosome that marks down what you will find attractive or beautiful in life. There just isn't! If there was, our culture wouldn't have evolved the way it has over these thousands of years.

So in summary:
A gay man can decide if he wants to see other men or not. If he chooses not to, they he will "learn" to be straight. People just get used to routines over time. But the question here is whether it will make him HAPPY. If it makes him HAPPY then he never really was gay. But if he's just denying what truely makes him happy, then he really is gay.

Don't get so caught up in the technicallity of it. The randomness of the heart and of the mind is what makes humanity beautiful.
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Old 09-07-2003, 01:58 AM   #51
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Originally posted by Datheus
Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion. No no no! It is NOT there at birth. And you know why? Because you're a soft-headed little sack of flesh. Your brain is so underdeveloped at the point in the your life...
Good that you're leaving room for debate. You really should be careful with absolute statements like that, or at least back up your position with something other than just opinion.
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Love is not something born out of flesh and blood. It's not born out of the way cells are flinging chemicals back and forth. How many trees do you see that are in love? Love is born out of the mind.
Love is a man-made concept. You can love anyone, male or female, whether you're gay or straight.
Homosexuality deals with which gender you are [physically or sexually] attracted to. There is evidence for it being related to an overabundance of certain chemicals (testosterone, I believe). Other evidence supports presence of chemicals or conditions in the womb, and there is evidence to support it being genetic as well.
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Homosexuality isn't something that comes as a package deal at birth. But it isn't a choice either. At least not by definition. You can tell a person to stop "being gay". They can do it by definition. They won't be happy (that is the key here), but a gay person can stop seeing people of their own gender.
Again with the absolute statements. You can tell a person to "stop being gay," sure... but if they listen, all they'll really stop doing is dating guys (or girls if they're female), or at least will hide it from you. They wouldn't actually stop "being gay," they would just not express it (if they even listened to you at all, which I don't see happening).
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It's not much different than when some battered wife refuses to leave her abusive husband. You can convince her to move out, but will she ever really stop loving him?
It's not the same at all. People in abusive relationships that don't leave do so for a couple reasons :
1) They are afraid to leave.
2) They rationalize away the behavior.
3) They feel "dependent" on the abuser in some way.
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Yes, it's exactly the same. We're not talking about who's sticking what where. We're talking about love and happiness. Keep that in mind.
Love and hapiness can be achieved in any relationship, whether heterosexual or homosexual. It's not love and happiness that causes people to be gay or straight.
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Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind. You can't fully define homosexuality (nor heterosexuality) without being able to completely understand the human mind. And none of you do. No one does.
Actually, there are some clear definitions for homosexual and heterosexual. If you feel these definitions fail to define it in some way, please explain further.
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Homosexuality has nothing to do with your genes. I can almost guarantee you that there is NOT a chromosome on your DNA that marks down whether you're homosexual or not. There is NOT a chromosome that marks down what you will find attractive or beautiful in life. There just isn't! If there was, our culture wouldn't have evolved the way it has over these thousands of years.
You sure do love those absolute statements... Logically, if there is a gene that causes one to be heterosexual, it is reasonable to expect that there is one that causes homosexuality. The fact that our culture has evolved the way that it has alone is proof enough of our diversity, not just of sexual orientation but in all things. If we were all the same, there would be no culture (or we would all share the same culture).
Quote:
A gay man can decide if he wants to see other men or not. If he chooses not to, they he will "learn" to be straight. People just get used to routines over time. But the question here is whether it will make him HAPPY. If it makes him HAPPY then he never really was gay.
A gay person can decide if they want to see other gay people. If they choose not to, he/she will not "learn" to be straight anymore than you "learned" to be straight.
Quote:
But if he's just denying what truely makes him happy, then he really is gay.
You're contradicting yourself here - you said if he was gay and forced himself to not see other men, he would "learn" to be straight. How can one be truly gay or straight if it is only a learned behavior?

There have been tests done that provide strong evidence of the fact that sexual orientation is not a learned behavior. I believe I posted something about it (with a link) in another thread... I can dig it up if you wish.

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Old 09-07-2003, 02:11 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Datheus
Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion.
Well boys, you heard him. 'Jais, PM Matt, tell him we're locking the thread. Matter of fact, tell him we're locking it and moving it to the swamp. In fact, let's move the whole Senate to the Swamp. 'Jais, PM the President and tell him we're surrendering our position.

No. Wait. Don't PM Matt and the President yet. [/A Few Good Men Mode]

Somehow I doubt you have the credentials to convince us of this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
Love is born out of the mind.
But isn't love just a neuro-chemical reaction generated in correlation to our life experiences? That's one hypothesis, anyway.

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
Homosexuality isn't something that comes as a package deal at birth. But it isn't a choice either. At least not by definition.
Then if it is something that one has no control over, that leaves biological imperative. Don't biological imperatives have origins of heredity?

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind.
Then why don't people generally "fall in love" with random genders?

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
You can't fully define homosexuality (nor heterosexuality) without being able to completely understand the human mind.
I disagree. I think that it can be defined with a partial understanding of the mind. We understand gravity and the speed of light, but we do not fully understand the universe.

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Originally posted by Datheus
And none of you do. No one does.
Poor argument. That same argument can be applied in any field of science... "No one can know for sure" anything. That's true only in the sense that nothing can ever be 100% proven. But if we are to just accept this, it begs the question, "why bother?" If we settled for that attitude we might never have even developed stone tools 100,000 years ago.

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Originally posted by Datheus
Homosexuality has nothing to do with your genes. I can almost guarantee you that there is NOT a chromosome on your DNA that marks down whether you're homosexual or not.
The only way you could possibly do that is to map the entire human genome. Or at least study a mapped human genome. There is already indication that genetic coding can influance sexual orientation. There is also evidence that suggests prenatal and postnatal environment influances sexual orientation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
There is NOT a chromosome that marks down what you will find attractive or beautiful in life. There just isn't!
Why couldn't there be?

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
If there was, our culture wouldn't have evolved the way it has over these thousands of years.
Why not? I can point you to evidence by a leading neuroscientist that suggests what we find appealing is linked to wiring in the brain and not dissimilar from what others find appealing. This would indicate that it must be coded in DNA in order to be replicated for the next generation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Datheus
Don't get so caught up in the technicallity of it. The randomness of the heart and of the mind is what makes humanity beautiful.
We're starting to find that the mind isn't as random as people like to think. And the heart is just a muscle for circulating blood and plasma... it doesn't really care about sexual orientation.


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Old 09-07-2003, 08:13 AM   #53
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Datheus,

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Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion.
Then stick your neck out and provide a rational explination for the results of the evidence linking active homosexuals with a marked brain difference that I have referenced several times. I'm guessing your thinking it was a fluke...?

I'm sorry if scientific knowledge is making your view of the world less beautiful and 'random'.

I certainly don't share your view. Learning more about how the universe works, including our own inner workings, only makes everything I see and experience more intreaging and - indeed - beautiful.

Quote:
Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind.
Love is a different topic. Love and sex can often be intertwined, but it's possible for sex to be experienced with a TOTAL seperation from love. (Of course we have to assume we are all working with the same definition of the word 'love')

I'm still not sure I'd totallly agree with you on the above statement, but I'd say it's more possible for 'love' to be more 'born out of the mind', as you say, than sexual preference...

TO clarify this, I would theorise that the people who you end up falling in love with could be influenced as much by upbringing as well as your biological make-up.
However, I would say 'sexual preference' in and of itself is prodominantly linked to bio-logical make-up. Not only does this make sense (at least to me), but the evidence clearly supports this.

Quote:
Don't get so caught up in the technicallity of it.
If homosexuals weren't viewed in a negative light by MANY people in this world, I don't think I would be SO eager to discuss the technicalities of homosexuality. But I would still be interested, and as I've already said, I would not be worried about my world view being 'de-mistified' by finding the answers...


P.S.

I'm having trouble trying to find ways to describe the attitude of people towards homosexuality.
If I say that people think it's 'wrong', they object to the word 'wrong'.
If I say people think it's a defect, again, they object to the word 'defect'.

So far, the only word they will not dispute is the word 'sin'.
i.e. they think that homosexuality is 'sinful'.

But as I've already said, I can't personally relate to such a word. I only know right and wrong.

But what is 'sin'. It is technically going against the word of God - sure. But it is also 'wrong' - surely? Disobeying God is never RIGHT - so it must be wrong.

So sin = wrong.
And so if homosexuality = sin
therefore you clearly imply homosexuality = wrong - surely...?

But anyway, I'll stick with the term 'viewed in a negative light' - to try and not offend people...

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Old 09-07-2003, 11:23 AM   #54
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[ Since I'm in the non-religious thread, I'll try my hand at secular arguments again. ; ) ]

Speaking of "learned behavior" here is a wild theory.. and no, I'm not a geneticist, so feel free to correct me. ; )

What if our sexual orientation happens later in life?

What I'm saying is... little kids aren't sexually attracted to stuff are they?

The reason is that they don't have the right hormones in sufficient quantities for this to occur.

When a person goes through puberty (as they enter their teens.. girls usually before boys) they start to "notice" people of the opposite sex.

Whereas a few years earlier they would be saying "girls have cooties" they are now saying "girls are cute!"

So perhaps all homosexuality is simply the hormonal changes associated with puberty occur differently (and if you believe that homosexuality is a disorder, then you would see this as a "malfunction" of the normal processes of puberty).

So most people end up being attracted to the opposite sex during/after puberty, and a few end up attracted to the same sex.

This could also explain bisexuality (a different kind of imbalance).

But then if this is true, it begs the question (how would we ever know? we'd have to monitor hormones of people before and after and see if they ended up gay, straight, or bi).

Also, it begs the question of whether or not a person's orientation could be "changed" with hormonal therapies (though perhaps the initial changes eventually sets a person in a "pattern" that can't be changed).

People who undergo "sex-change operations" (technically you can't change your sex, because that is based on your chromosomes, but you can change your physical appearance) can also take hormone therapy to become more "manly" or "womanly" (I don't say masculine or feminine, because these are thought of as culturally constructed behaviors).

Just a wild theory here...


The behavior theory is usually explained as a person in very early childhood is sexually abused or is exposed to homosexuality from their parents or relatives and this "programs" them to become homosexual. Of course, this too would require studies and since there are so many possible factors, it would be harder to determine if this were true.


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Old 09-09-2003, 02:30 AM   #55
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Love is a man-made concept. You can love anyone, male or female, whether you're gay or straight.
I don't think love is a man-made concept. Animals fall in love too, I'm pretty sure they do, at least?

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Old 09-09-2003, 01:31 PM   #56
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Think about what love is.
Some animals mate for life - but is that really love, or some kind of genetic inclination to protect the young and continue to produce more offspring?

Love was invented by us. It's our concept - our attempt to describe a phenomena that can cause many otherwise rational, logical people to act irrationally and illogically.

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Old 09-17-2003, 01:18 AM   #57
shukrallah
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lol, when i said "i guess" I was just saying it, it had no meaning at all.

About love, i dont think your born with it. Like for example, if your surrounded by hate, and never shown love, or barley any love while your growing up, will you love? Probably not, or at least untill you are shown love. Or... maybe you are born loving, but then you change because of whats arround you...

Quote:
Why couldn't there be?
Is there a gene that says your heterosexual?
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Old 09-17-2003, 01:29 AM   #58
Tyrion
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Is there a gene that says your heterosexual?
More chemicals than anything else.

Since obviously your parents are heterosexual.



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Old 09-17-2003, 04:38 AM   #59
Dagobahn Eagle
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Quote:
Is there a gene that says your heterosexual?
No.

Is homosexuality morally right? Absolutely. Why? Because it's what you are, and it's harmless (except from elements that also apply to heterosexuals).

You're right, a lesbian girl can date a boy. But a lesbian dating a boy is not thus a straight girl. She's acting straight, but at the bottom, her sexual orientation will remain the same. She may have lots and lots of fun with her "boyfriend", but in the end it won't be more beneficial to her than having a regular friend or best friend. Why? It's not love.

Homosexuality is allright. It's the homophobes who should be cured or "dropped on a remote island".

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