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Old 10-17-2003, 01:46 PM   #1
ShockV1.89
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Oh..my...god...

I never thought that humanity could stoop so low...

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/oct/10152003/utah/102062.asp

Some clips from the article...

"To mark the fifth anniversary of the killing, the Rev. Fred Phelps wants to put up a monument in a Casper park that says: "Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's solemn warning: Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22." "

"In 1998, Shepard was lured from a bar, tied to a fence and beaten. He died several days later in a hospital. Phelps and other antigay activists protested at the funeral, shouting slurs and waving signs. "


Truly disgusting. I mean, it's ok to be against homosexuality. I mean, it's your opinion. I dont agree with it, but it's an opinion.

But isn't it bad enough you had the gall to show up at the poor guys funeral, with his family there, and shouted things like "God hates fags" and "Matthew Shepherd is in hell!"

But no, you can't stop there. Now you have to rub more salt in the wound by trying to put up a friggin monument like that?

Some people just don't deserve the air they breath....


"Not all one pleads can be granted. But a good hearing soothes the heart." -The Instruction of Ptah-hotep.

"So here I go, it's my shot. Feet fail me not. This may be the only opportunity that I got..." -Eminem
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Old 10-17-2003, 01:51 PM   #2
Darth Groovy
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I'm on your side on this one. I am heterosexual, but have had many gay friends in the past, so this is a sensitive issue.

However, I feel this is topic fit for serious debate, therefore I am moving it to the senate, where you will get a better response.

cheers,

Groovy
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Old 10-17-2003, 02:10 PM   #3
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It's sick, ignorant, pathetic, vile and - in my view - 'evil'.

...but the man who is doing it probably considers himself 'spiritually superior' for suggesting such a thing...

...the irony of religion!
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Old 10-17-2003, 02:30 PM   #4
obi
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I am against homosexuality, but I am against moronic violence more.

How do people like that sleep at night? I don't agree with homosexualality, But I am not about to go and beat up every one I know.

Disgusting. Very disgusting indeed.




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Old 10-17-2003, 02:32 PM   #5
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I am saddened by this article, not shocked however, disappointed yes, but you see religious ideologies can be just as extremist here in North America as they can be in the middle east. Unfortunately the article posses that old and most valuled of amercian principles freedom of speech.

I mean to me which is more deadly the hate monger who spends money to errect a momument of this ilk, or the devotee secrete society hate monger who hides these thoughts inside their heart, worshipping at the dark temple of their mormon soul?

and lets face it historically Utah has always been a stumbling block in US history. The Mormons own the state and practically run it. they went their in prairrie day to worship and avoid religious prosecution, and there was terrible political and religious upheavals associated it with joining the union in the first place. Leaders of the Mormon faith had to actually rewrite their own sacred tenenant given to them by god; and say bigamy was NOT KOSHER, when that is one of the key reasons they left for Utah in the first place. the right for a man to have more than one wife.
And now there is even a movement to re-instate the old time religion of poligamy again.

no as a hetrosexual (who has been gay bashed in real life, three times growing up) and as a city dweller in Toronto Canada which has a huge gay\lesbian population; I feel 'IF' people do not actually harm you by their life style; then 'YOU SHOULD' tolerance their chosen lifestyle.

as I have heard christians so often say, and muslims for that matter, let god\allah judge you, it is not man's place. the people who live in Utah have to work through this issue in a painful baptism of fire. (they have been doing so ever since they founded their golden cities)




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Old 10-17-2003, 06:33 PM   #6
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Another reason a lack of faith is the path for me.

Of course, people fear what they don't understand and fear leads to hate. Many non-Christians commit savage beatings like this for reasons other than God's mandate (popularity or petty ignorance).
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Old 10-18-2003, 01:05 AM   #7
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I'm going to nick-pick the article..too hard to go against the entire article all at once..

Quote:
To mark the fifth anniversary of the killing, the Rev. Fred Phelps wants to put up a monument in a Casper park that says: "Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's solemn warning: Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22."
Uhuh. It's one thing to put up a statue about Christianity, it's another repulsive thing to put one up of humilation another human.

Quote:
The minister, who is a disbarred attorney, said if the city decides to move the Ten Commandments, he and members of his Westboro Baptist Church will either file a lawsuit or buy land themselves in Casper to display their monument. He said the granite display, which will cost about $15,000, will be completed in about a month and transported to Wyoming by trailer.
"One way or the other, the monument goes up," Phelps said.
Good God! Do I smell a homophobe here? 15,000 dollars spent for a humilating statue, instead of oh..trying to do somethin production and donating the money to chairty...

Quote:
"We had signs that said 'God Hates Fags' made up in state-of-the-art letters in seven languages because there were nations of the world flocking from all over to Salt Lake City," he said. "It was a nice audience you set up for us."
I can hardly see how "thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22." will turn into God hating gays...

Quote:
"It's a matter of supreme irrelevancy what the reaction is," Phelps said. "This crazy country's gone ape trying to establish that it's all right to be gay."
Talk about a big ego. Since when is it wrong to be gay? Because a book tells you it's wrong? Way to be homophobic, pal.

*pants, then sighs and says that the world is going to blow up in the next 100 years at the most*



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Old 10-18-2003, 03:59 AM   #8
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I see this as an extreme act of desperation by a radical member of a failing faith and religion.
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Old 10-18-2003, 05:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
"To mark the fifth anniversary of the killing, the Rev. Fred Phelps wants to put up a monument in a Casper park that says: "Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's solemn warning: Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22."
How do they know what happened to the poor guy? Its sick that they would take pleasure in anothers death like that.

And, it is a mighty big stone for them to throw.


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Old 10-18-2003, 04:47 PM   #10
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It's radicals like these nuts that give Christians a bad name. What they are doing goes completely against the grain of Christianity.

(note that what I say next is only what I believe in as a Christian. I'm not trying to convert anyone here)

It says in the Bible that we are all God's creatures, created in His image. I can tell you right now that they twisted and manipulated the verse from Leviticus. It doesn't say anything about killing gay peolple. Moreover, all the laws of the Old Testiment (of which Leviticus is a part of) are null and void. It is only the New Testiment that Christians abide to. In the New Testament, Jesus said to love your enemies and do unto others as you would like others to do unto you. How can these extremists perform such a heinous crime that goes against their Savoir's teachings and say it's justified by their faith?

The holier-than-thou attitude of those radicals makes me sick. In Romans 3:23, it states that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That means that no one is exempt from sin. We have all sinned, no matter who we are. In the book of John, the Pharisees brought a woman accused of adultery before Jesus. According to the laws, adulterers were stoned to death. Jesus' answer for them was "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." These supporters of this crime, having all sinned themselves, are in no position to ridicule a different way of life.

Though I don't approve completely of homosexuality, I don't have any problems with gay people. My aunt's a lesbian and my mother is friends with a gay guy who has AIDS. If you take the time to know them, they're funny, charming individuals whose only difference from heterosexuals is their sexual preference. It is blind fear and ignorance combined with hypocracy and hatred that these people (who I don't even consider to be Christians) callously disregard respect for fellow human beings and a different way of life.
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Old 10-18-2003, 11:15 PM   #11
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I have no worries whatsoever about this. Why not?

First of all, this is against the constitution on the grounds that it is a serious insult.

Second, someone's bound to cover it with grafitti or otherwise destroy it shortly after its erection.

Third, it will set off a wave of hate that will only harm Reverend Phelp's oragnisation, which, if I may add, is also unconstitutional on the grounds of insult and should've been shut down a long time ago.

Does this mean I put up with reverend Phelps? Absolutely not. If I ever see him, I'll throw a bucket of water or something harder in his head.

Quote:
Phelps and other antigay activists protested at the funeral, shouting slurs and waving signs.
One of my long-term dreams is to gang up with a couple of friends, preferably gays or lesbians, and picket Phelp's funeral.

Eagle.

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Old 10-19-2003, 01:06 AM   #12
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but you see religious ideologies can be just as extremist here in North America as they can be in the middle east.
I agree eggplant, but i plee with you guys not to put all christians into this category. Im like obi against it, but not to the point of violence and that level.

AND just to make this clear they interpret the bible wrongily. God hates sin not the sinners. They are sinning just like the person that is homosexual.


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Old 10-19-2003, 02:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
I agree eggplant, but i plee with you guys not to put all christians into this category. Im like obi against it, but not to the point of violence and that level.

AND just to make this clear they interpret the bible wrongily. God hates sin not the sinners. They are sinning just like the person that is homosexual.
Nobody would put every Christian into a radical stereotype. Though everyone treats Muslims like terrorists after 9/11.

And nobody whos radical like that has the right idea. They just read what they want to.

If I recall, though, there is a passage that says to smite sinners...hm...
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Old 10-19-2003, 11:30 AM   #14
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The Bible tells us tha tGod will be the judge, not us.

"Vengeance is mine, thus sayeth the Lord" - Somewhere in the Bible, forgot where.

So in other words, this revrend guy thinks he's God. Or at least he thinks he's doing God a favor. Nether of these are correct. This man will get what he deserves in time. We reap what we sew.

@Kain- I don't treat muslims I know like they are terrorists. Theres a few that own a gas station down the street, and my family is good friends with them. Though it is true a lot of dumb people treat them like they are terrorists, and they get remarks like "How's allah doin?!" etc.




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Old 10-19-2003, 07:19 PM   #15
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Seems to me that people often come to certain conclusions about certain topics, and then turn to scripture to prove their point. Not the other way around. The end result is people interpreting scripture with an extreme bias towards a certain viewpoint.

Would make more sense if they turned to scripture in the first place without any pre-conceived conclusions, if they really feel the need to live by the bible.

[originally posted this in another thread, mistakenly... but I guess it applies in both]


"Not all one pleads can be granted. But a good hearing soothes the heart." -The Instruction of Ptah-hotep.

"So here I go, it's my shot. Feet fail me not. This may be the only opportunity that I got..." -Eminem
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Old 10-19-2003, 11:19 PM   #16
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This seems appropriate:
Quote:
Letter for Laura

Laura Schlessinger is a known radio persion in the USA who gives advice to those who call her. A short time ago she answered one of her callers, with reference to the bible, that homosexuality is a abomination which should under no condition be tolerated.

The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura written in pen by an American citizen, whose name is unknown (if his/her name is unknown, how do they know itís an American citizen? -Eagle).

Dear Dr. Laura.

Thank you for doing so much to teach people to live by Godís commandments. I have learned much from you, and I now try to share your knowledge with as many as I can. If someone for example tries to defend homosexuality, then I will only remind them that the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is an abomination. Then thereís nothing more to say about the topic.

But now I require advice on how to live by Godís commandments:

1. When I burn a cow as a sacrifice I know that this gives of a smell that pleases the Lord. The problem is the neighbours.

2. I wish to sell my daughter as a slave. With todayís price level, what do you think would be an acceptable price?

3. In the Bible it clearly says that I can own both male and female slaves as long as they are born from a neighbouring country. A friend of mine says that this applies only to Mexicans, and not Canadians. Here I need help. Can I own Canadians?

4. I have a neigbour who insists on working on Sundays. The Bible makes it clear that he shall be killed. Am I morally responsible for doing this myself?

5. A friend of mine thinks that even though itís an abomination to eat shellfish, homosexuality is worse. I disagree. Who is right?

6. In the Bible is clearly says that I must not approach Godís alter if I have a visual impairment. I do have to admit that Iím nearsighted and wear glasses. Does my vision have to be perfect, or can we operate with some tolerance here?

7. Most of my friends go to the stylist. They cut their hair on the sides of their heads and cut their beards. This is a sin according to the Bible. How should they be punished?

8. Iíve read in the Bible that I cannot touch remains of a dead pig because it makes me unclean. Can I still play Football if I wear gloves?

9. My uncle owns a farm. He sins according to the Bible because he plants two different
types of vegetables on the same field. His wife is no better. She has the bad habit of wearing clothes made from two different cloth types (a mixture of cotton and polyster). She also has the bad habit of cussing. Is it really necessary that we gather the whole town to kill them, as ordered in the Bible? Isnít it just as easy to burn them to death in a family gathering like we usually do with people who sleep with their relavtives?

10. My brother is a rascal and disobeys instructions. He also lies, drinks, and wastes his money. We will now follow the Bible and bring him to the oldest people in the city and stone him to death. Now the problem is that my grandparents have passed away. Is it okay that we bring him to the elderly home, or do we have to go from house to house in the city to find the oldest members?

I know youíve studied these questions in depth, so I am certain that you can help me. Thank you for constantly reminding me that Godís word is eternal and unchangeable.

From a faithful disiple and worshipping fan.

Translated by Dagobahn Eagle.
Quote:
It's a matter of supreme irrelevancy what the reaction is. -Phelps
So it doesn't matter to him what others think, but for some reason it should matter to others what he thinks? So much, in fact, that he's willing to spend $15,000 on a homophobic propaganda monument as well as picketing funerals and runnign a web site? Tsk, tsk, tsk...

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Old 10-20-2003, 01:02 AM   #17
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One thing you have to remember is, is that guy isnt God. He has no right to pass judgement. Even though the bible is clear on homosexuality, he should know not to do violent things like that. But also remember, he believes in God, so if he believes God would punish a homosexual, he must believe that God would punish someone else who breaks his commands.

In the long run, we dont have the right to judge this man, just like he doesnt have the right to judge the homosexual. Only God has the right. I dont think God would let a monument go up like that anyways. And i agree with a lot of what you people say here.

Also, its not right to "punish" or "bash" other christians for what a few of them have done. Just like its wrong to punish muslim for 9-11. Many people do, but they are wrong. Those muslims didnt get on a plane and kill people.
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Old 10-20-2003, 03:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
...as a city dweller in Toronto Canada which has a huge gay\lesbian population...
Just for your information: Gay/lesbian populations do not noticeably vary from place to place. It's always plus/minus 1/10th of the population.

Quote:
We cannot judge this man...
Spiritually, as in condemning him to pain after Death.. no. Legally, if he breaks the law, which he certainly, in my opinion, does... Yes.

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Old 10-20-2003, 07:25 AM   #19
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Luke,

In light of your own admission that you shouldn't stereotype a religion by the actions of a subset of it's members, I want you to first of all read your own comment in the 'Why is it OK to bash christianity' thread:

Quote:
Its a well known fact that many muslims have killed christians, just for saying Jesus died on the cross or something. Maybe its not there law, but go up to one and say something about christ, you wont be standing for long.
The intention of this statement is to 'villify' all Muslims based on the actions of a few.

and let's not forget the statement you made just before the one above...

Quote:
Dude, the muslim law says they can kill christians
So (Dude) - Secondly - I want you to swallow your God-given pride and admit that the insinuation of BOTH the above statements is - quite frankly - absurd, and also insulting to any good natured, upstanding muslim and you have a moral duty to fully retract them.

You would instantly earn back a LOT of respect from me by that one admission of 'ignorance'. You can call it 'temporary' ignorance if you like - I don't really mind. The main thing I want you to do is admit:

a. The statements are simply not accurate
b. you were wrong to make any such insinuations in the first place...

Last edited by CloseTheBlastDo; 10-20-2003 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 10-20-2003, 09:20 PM   #20
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Isn't it against the law in some way to put up a monument that insults someone? Slander or something like that has to do with it I'm sure. So next there will be a Nazi monument commemorating the execution of Jews in WW2, maybe a Monument celebrating 911 in New York City park, or a monument to the glorious days of slavery in Atlanta, Georgia.....

Hell while we're at it lets put up a monument calibrating the death of Christ.......
"Yeah who's with me?"


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Old 10-20-2003, 11:10 PM   #21
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Can you slander someone who's already dead? It's not like they're there to defend themselves...

Not saying it's right, just that I dont think it would fall under slander.


"Not all one pleads can be granted. But a good hearing soothes the heart." -The Instruction of Ptah-hotep.

"So here I go, it's my shot. Feet fail me not. This may be the only opportunity that I got..." -Eminem
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Old 10-21-2003, 01:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
Luke,

In light of your own admission that you shouldn't stereotype a religion by the actions of a subset of it's members, I want you to first of all read your own comment in the 'Why is it OK to bash christianity' thread:



The intention of this statement is to 'villify' all Muslims based on the actions of a few.

and let's not forget the statement you made just before the one above...



So (Dude) - Secondly - I want you to swallow your God-given pride and admit that the insinuation of BOTH the above statements is - quite frankly - absurd, and also insulting to any good natured, upstanding muslim and you have a moral duty to fully retract them.

You would instantly earn back a LOT of respect from me by that one admission of 'ignorance'. You can call it 'temporary' ignorance if you like - I don't really mind. The main thing I want you to do is admit:

a. The statements are simply not accurate
b. you were wrong to make any such insinuations in the first place...
Yeah, i do admit i was wrong about that sorry... been thinking about some of the stuff ive posted latley. Plus i did read it one of those chick comic thingys... and on some other site written by a paster.. but i dont know which site.

And i was wrong about certain parts of my explanation of "why good things happen to bad people" (i think i said something about that, basically i said its because they have done something wrong, now after thinking about it, and listening to other preachers/misionaries etc.. i realise that it could be because of your sins, but it could also be for some other unknown reason. Im not God, and i cant think like God, nor should i even try. I just have to trust that he will do, what he needs to do.. after all, its for the best)
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Old 10-21-2003, 01:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
And i was wrong about certain parts of my explanation of "why good things happen to bad people" (i think i said something about that, basically i said its because they have done something wrong, now after thinking about it, and listening to other preachers/misionaries etc.. i realise that it could be because of your sins, but it could also be for some other unknown reason. Im not God, and i cant think like God, nor should i even try. I just have to trust that he will do, what he needs to do.. after all, its for the best)
You know, this is one of the worst types of thinking, in my opinion. You dont even know if God is doing his job, or if he even cares about you. You just blindly have faith in what he doing is for the best.

Besides, God helps those that help themselves, right? Maybe that's why good things happen to bad people, I suppose.



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Old 10-21-2003, 02:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Plus i did read it one of those chick comic thingys
........

*slaps you*


"Not all one pleads can be granted. But a good hearing soothes the heart." -The Instruction of Ptah-hotep.

"So here I go, it's my shot. Feet fail me not. This may be the only opportunity that I got..." -Eminem
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