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Old 11-08-2003, 09:58 AM   #1
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Staff to Dual Sabers?

Going through the saber.sab file, I realize there are alot of stuff that this thing is quite possibly already capable of doing yet doesn't for whatever reason (might just be as simple as an existing server setting).

The thing I am mainly thinking about is the ability to split a Two-Handed saber/Staff hilt & have that become 2 hilts all during a duel. This is covered a bit in the saber.sab file yet I have never seen this done online before but I think it would be awesome if some hilts could do that.

Maybe we could give this staff some sort of an advantage the others do not, however, if the staff is broken, the user is stuck with just Yellow; Otherwise, we'd have to make some hilts go to single if they are broken & others go to dual sabers.

Keep in mind that there would need to be custom hilts made of the split in half staff, which I could make but I would prefer that these hilts be used only for this purpose. It is kinda lame to start out with a broken staff IMO.

Anyways, just thinking this stuff through, thought I would run some of this past you guys & see what you thought.


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Old 11-08-2003, 05:36 PM   #2
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That would be interesting...Would having 2 sabers make one destroyable (to balance it out)?

Also, after the staff has broken and is in two sabers, will the secondary one be able to be destroyed?


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Old 11-08-2003, 06:54 PM   #3
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Agreed. I'll be working on that once the SDK comes out.


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Old 11-08-2003, 11:31 PM   #4
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Actually, I think there should be a client side CVar for this. If it is set to 0, then the 2-handed saber can not be broken, if set to 1 then it goes to single saber when broken, & then when set to 2 it goes to dual sabers when broken.

I do not want to force this feature on anyone & balancing it out is going to cause complaints from people, I think this is the best solution for the matter.

I will make split versions of all the 2-handed sabers in Cool Mods & I will make all the hilts that no one else can claim copyright on (except for people I know & trust, Ravensoft, & myself) because of OJP's "no return" policy & then submit that to OJP or maybe just include the OJP pack in with CM. I don't want duplicate hilt packs about, I am trying to create the ultimate modding project & I don't want any other hilt packs in the way, mainly because of the pure servers that are out there. If pure servers use CM material, then clients can connect & use their favorite mod (CM has a variety of various types of mods). I would like OJP working in conjunction with CM but both can function smoothly individually as well.


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Old 11-09-2003, 02:30 AM   #5
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Creating a client cvar would be a waste of time. If it would work only if the client toggled it, noone would use it (since someone else wouldn't).

Instead, I think the ideal solution would be to make it a part of the gameplay. Meaning that losing/grabbing new sabers would be part of the fun.

In my system, sabers would be destroyable and losable, but you can get more sabers by taking other people's sabers when they die or when they drop them.

Saber Throws would always require you to retreive your saber instead of the current system of magically returning sabers.


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Old 11-09-2003, 03:28 AM   #6
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Saber Throws would always require you to retreive your saber instead of the current system of magically returning sabers.
Maybe you could make it require force to retrieve it based on distance from the player. If you don't have enough force to call it back to you, it doesn't come.


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Old 11-09-2003, 04:31 AM   #7
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Yes,Force Pulling the saber back to you would take force power. However, there would be some changes. If the saber were to hit something while moving back to the owner it would fall to the ground again.


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Old 11-09-2003, 02:11 PM   #8
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So what are you going to do? Leave people totally defenseless? it's going to create people running around & the opponent running after them & then it will never end = gh3y.

One of the features in Jedi Action is when you kick a person it also kicks weapons out of the other players hands. Now I intended on doing this only with firearm weapons & not sabers but the point is you CAN NOT leave people totally defenseless, they have to have some way of defending themselves. Maybe add some kind of hand to hand combat - I dunno, but I don't see people being left totally defenseless going over well at all.

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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Creating a client cvar would be a waste of time. If it would work only if the client toggled it, noone would use it (since someone else wouldn't).
It would get used if it was visable on the GUI menu system & when people see the staff's getting splitted into 2. People would definitely get interested real fast when they see that.
Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
In my system, sabers would be destroyable and losable, but you can get more sabers by taking other people's sabers when they die or when they drop them.

Saber Throws would always require you to retreive your saber instead of the current system of magically returning sabers.
All depends on how you code it, if people have to physically walk over & get the saber, I don't think it will go over well tbh; And if people are left with no weapon aside from their fists, I don't see that going over well either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm saying these are bad ideas but you need to be careful how & what you code or it could turn people off real fast on your project.

I highly recommend you leave CVars (for every feature, not just this/these) to return things to normal.

I do like the concept of needing force pull to retrieve your saber & whatnot but again man, you need to be REAL careful about what you are coding because I do see this turning some people off to the project.

You may want to default this kind of thing to off. I realize that doing so will cut the usage factor down (because most pple are n00bs & ever fewer ever RTFM) but this type of thing will piss some people off. I HIGHLY recommend you either make this in a seperate mod or default it to off in Basic.


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Old 11-09-2003, 03:07 PM   #9
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1. Splitting the staff at will is a very, very bad idea. It's something Raven contemplated, and realized it would render using two sabers entirely useless. You should be able to get it destroyed, and have a POSSIBILITY of splitting it in two WORKING parts, and a possibility of one side getting totally destroyed. For one time use of course. Infact... it would be cool if any saber could get destroyed.

2. Force pull to get your saber is...not a good idea I think. It seems like a poor attempt to make the game more "skill based". Also, level three saber throw has a range of WAY more than level three pull, so you'd have to make some major changes, for something that's not really necessary in my opinion.


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Old 11-09-2003, 07:13 PM   #10
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Originally posted by Marker0077
So what are you going to do? Leave people totally defenseless? it's going to create people running around & the opponent running after them & then it will never end = gh3y.
Well, you won't be totally defenseless, you'll have the melee attacks. But that's to be expected, since if you were stupid enough to lose your last saber.... In addition, any extra sabers that your opponent has taken will be on his belt, you'll be able to force pull a saber off his belt.
Quote:
1. Splitting the staff at will is a very, very bad idea. It's something Raven contemplated, and realized it would render using two sabers entirely useless. You should be able to get it destroyed, and have a POSSIBILITY of splitting it in two WORKING parts, and a possibility of one side getting totally destroyed. For one time use of course. Infact... it would be cool if any saber could get destroyed.
Make seperate skill stats for each single/dual/double. You'd be able to use other types but will suck at it without putting additional points in the other types.

Agreed, I was planning on making any saber destroyable.
Quote:
Force pull to get your saber is...not a good idea I think. It seems like a poor attempt to make the game more "skill based". Also, level three saber throw has a range of WAY more than level three pull, so you'd have to make some major changes, for something that's not really necessary in my opinion.
Sorry, I meant with the standard saber retreval system. I was just meaning that it should take force points.

But I do think that the retreval button should be remapped to another button so you can do melee attacks without accidently retreiving the saber. Maybe Saber select/on/off since you can't realistically remotely turn on your blade anyway?

And obviously, this would not go into the Basic Distro.


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Old 11-09-2003, 07:47 PM   #11
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You'd have to make it worth a lot of Force points to use another saber, enough to severely cripple the rest of your Force powers. Like in JK, Force Protect and Deadly Sight required you to sacrifice all neutral Force powers like Jump, Speed, Seeing, and Pull.

Alright, the mana drain on retreiving the saber sounds cool. It gives you a window of vulnerability that's long enough to get some cool melee fights in.


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Old 11-10-2003, 02:00 AM   #12
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I don't really see it taking an assload of points. I'm thinking about the same or a little less (skill synergy) than buying points for that saber type normally.


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Old 11-10-2003, 04:19 AM   #13
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...why only a little? You're making it sound like you want people to be able to split their staff into two sabers without much of a sacrifice, which renders choosing the dual sabers almost entirely pointless. Being able to switch between a staff and dual sabers with the press of a button would be such a tremendous advantage. You need to make sure that if a player wants that, they're going to be severely lacking in other departments, otherwise it'll render picking just the dual sabers or staff useless, hell, even render the single saber useless at that point.


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Old 11-10-2003, 04:51 AM   #14
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I'd hardly count basically doubling the number of skill points to just get the saber staff with the same level of single saber functional as "little". That's not even counting being able to use dual sabers.

The single saber skill would be the cheapest. Followed by the dual and staff skills. I'm not sure which should be more expensive as I'm not sure how different the martial skills involved would be. I'm lending towards Staff < Dual because dual sabers require more complex hand movement/coordinate for strikes and to prevent getting yourself injured by your own weapons.


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Old 11-10-2003, 04:53 AM   #15
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Make it where they can't put full points in saber attack/defense/throw?


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Old 11-10-2003, 05:01 AM   #16
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Razorace, I think maybe you're not understanding the concept of "balanced gameplay"...

From what I understand, you want to make the staff splitable into dual sabers, at will, without having the player to make any substancial Force point allocation sacrifice.

Look, the staff is supposed to have the best defense, because you have a wide area that you can easily defend, and you can rotate the staff to quickly block any attack or projectile. Dual sabers are one of the best for offense because you have, well, two blades, you can make very fast attacks with either hand, albeit less powerful than a single blade (and crappier defense because, uh, less control because using two hands basically). Which is where the single saber comes in. You have the most Force per-blade than any other weapon, allowing you to make hugely penetrating blows, and you still have the basic defensive capabilities, making it a very well rounded weapon.

Now, if you give someone the access to the best defense and the best offense... It really messes everything up. You can be wailing on someone with your dual sabers, then tap a key to rebind them into a staff, and start reflecting blaster bolts like nobody's business. That's just not fair. So if you're going to do that, you're going to have to make some other, very significant sacrifices. Reduce Force allocation points or limit Force powers is the best thing I can think of right now.


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Old 11-10-2003, 05:29 AM   #17
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Quote:
Reduce Force allocation points
Please reread my posts. That's what I've been stating all along. If you want to have any skill with a non-primary saber stance, you'd have to dump a bunch of points into it.

Staffs:

- Great bounce potential (more/better bounces)

- Better swing leverage (more damage)

- Better saber grip

Duals:

- Better range of motion

- Multiple attack vectors (unfortunately, JKA doesn't really emulate this)


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Old 11-10-2003, 08:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Agreed, I was planning on making any saber destroyable.Sorry, I meant with the standard saber retreval system. I was just meaning that it should take force points.

But I do think that the retreval button should be remapped to another button so you can do melee attacks without accidently retreiving the saber. Maybe Saber select/on/off since you can't realistically remotely turn on your blade anyway?

And obviously, this would not go into the Basic Distro.
When you say force points, you meant force mana points. it's not the same, force points is in your player profile. Anyways, I was on the same page as you with this one, meaning no matter what your force points are in your player profile, you can still retrieve your saber & it would take mana. I was thinking of using the force pull button but the on/off doesn't sound bad tho.
Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
You'd have to make it worth a lot of Force points to use another saber, enough to severely cripple the rest of your Force powers. Like in JK, Force Protect and Deadly Sight required you to sacrifice all neutral Force powers like Jump, Speed, Seeing, and Pull.
I don't see why a multi-bladed weapon(s) should take more force points via the player profile, it's not that big of an advantage (if you are playing the defaults, which most servers out there ARE NOT set to, which is why I only play on DarkSide servers (where the best duelists go to play)).
Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
Being able to switch between a staff and dual sabers with the press of a button would be such a tremendous advantage.
I'm not sure where getting to switch between the various types of weaponry came in, your staff being hit would switch it to a single, not make it able to go back & forth between weapons but even if you could, I don't see being able to switch between all types of weapons as a "tremendous" advantage. You just have to change your tactics depending upon which weapon they use such (the staff is good for up-close combat & is the 1-hit killer of all 3, the dual blades are similar except have a longer reach & are the worse of the 3 with parrying, & then the single is the best all around weapon, etc; etc.).

I agree that something like that should be crippled a bit, however, I wouldn't say it is a "tremendous" advantage. Honestly, I don't think people should get to switch between weapons anytime they like during a duel.
Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
The single saber skill would be the cheapest. Followed by the dual and staff skills. I'm not sure which should be more expensive...
You guys need to play on servers that use the default settings. Each weapon has it's own unique advantages & disadvantages, they are pretty well balanced as is. People not using the defaults is what screws it all up.

I don't think any 1 of the 3 weapons should be more expensive than the other, I don't think it should cost any different, they each have their ups & downs. Personally, I prefer the single saber.

Lastly, the only "disadvantage" a person would have with their staff being split is if they were forced to use yellow &/or blue only. if they have all the single saber stances, there's no real disadvantage there, it's just balanced differently.


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Old 11-10-2003, 09:36 AM   #19
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I don't see why a multi-bladed weapon(s) should take more force points via the player profile, it's not that big of an advantage (if you are playing the defaults, which most servers out there ARE NOT set to, which is why I only play on DarkSide servers (where the best duelists go to play)).
Simply put, multi-bladed weapons take more skill to use and give you more saber blade space to work with (and that translates to more oppertunities for blocking and attacking in the game)


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Old 11-10-2003, 01:58 PM   #20
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...oh... I thought you meant splitting them at will... which would be enormously cheap... alright, what you have seems fine...


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Old 11-10-2003, 09:00 PM   #21
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I did mean that, but it would be balanced. You'd have to spend a lot more skill points on saber skills, use certain hilts, and you'd basically be defenseless while performing the attach/deattach move.


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Old 11-10-2003, 09:33 PM   #22
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How long would the animation be? 1 1/2 to 2 secs?


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Old 11-10-2003, 09:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marker0077

I don't think any 1 of the 3 weapons should be more expensive than the other, I don't think it should cost any different, they each have their ups & downs. Personally, I prefer the single saber.

Lastly, the only "disadvantage" a person would have with their staff being split is if they were forced to use yellow &/or blue only. if they have all the single saber stances, there's no real disadvantage there, it's just balanced differently.
Yeah, in jk2 I set it up so you had to have saber attack >= level 3 to even use the staff/twin blades; if your staff got split there was a %30 chance it would become 2 blades. If it became one blade (or you lost the 2nd hilt with twin sabers), you could only use the two new one-handed stances (from JediMod) with the single blade, and not the original three.
One thing i had wished i'd done was given penalties to the staff -> twin sabers users, like slowing the animation speed or something. I agree that there shoudl be some penalty (either in skill cost, proficiency, or vulnerability) for users who switch between sabers that are not their default selection.
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Old 11-10-2003, 10:02 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
How long would the animation be? 1 1/2 to 2 secs?
Probably about that long, it depends on what we determines looks the best. During the move, you'd still be able to block (at reduced effeciency) but you'd basically be 95% sure to not fully block the attack AND drop your saber(s)


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Old 11-10-2003, 10:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Probably about that long, it depends on what we determines looks the best.
You've seen that script that that one guy made that gives an animated transition between blade types in SP, yes?
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Old 11-10-2003, 11:08 PM   #26
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I've heard of it but haven't tried it.


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Old 11-11-2003, 06:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Simply put, multi-bladed weapons take more skill to use and give you more saber blade space to work with (and that translates to more oppertunities for blocking and attacking in the game)
multi-bladed weapons do not take more skill to use, it's just balanced differently - nothing more. I would still take a single over anything ANY day of the week.
Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
I did mean that, but it would be balanced.
Why would you let someone break their 2-handed saber in half at will? That makes no sense. What's the guy gunna do? Take the saber & break it over his knee?

This whole thing was started by the Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul scene where Obi cuts the 2-handed saber in half & Maul is forced to use it as a single at that point. THAT'S what started this. Some people just get a kick out of doing what they see others do in movies.

I don't mean to be negative here, I just don't like that idea. If you want a single saber - choose a single saber, if you want 2 sabers - choose 2 sabers. Know what I mean?
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
How long would the animation be? 1 1/2 to 2 secs?
instantanious probably, just have a white flash (similar to when sabers collide except alot more glitter) then the hilt is switched with the broken hilt.
Quote:
Originally posted by Azymn
...if your staff got split there was a %30 chance it would become 2 blades. If it became one blade...
I think that the 2-handed saber should have it's own health bar. Once it loses 100 to 114 points, it becomes 2 sabers & if it goes over 114 points it goes to a single saber. The sabers are already well balanced (again, with default settings), I wouldn't want to mess that up.

I would like to take the Desann & Tavion stances & use those with reversed saber(s). That's how Adi Gallia fought with her saber, reversed. There are some problems with this but should be easy enough to work out. We'll see.
Quote:
Originally posted by Azymn
One thing i had wished i'd done was given penalties to the staff -> twin sabers users, like slowing the animation speed or something. I agree that there shoudl be some penalty (either in skill cost, proficiency, or vulnerability) for users who switch between sabers that are not their default selection.
That doesn't apply to JK3. They are well balanced here.


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Old 11-11-2003, 06:34 AM   #28
razorace
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marker0077
[B]multi-bladed weapons do not take more skill to use, it's just balanced differently - nothing more. I would still take a single over anything ANY day of the week.Why would you let someone break their 2-handed saber in half at will? That makes no sense. What's the guy gunna do? Take the saber & break it over his knee?
I meant from a martial arts standpoint.

Anyway, many staff sabers are suppose to be designed to be splitable into two sabers. Maul's had that feature and that's why it still worked after getting sliced in half.


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Old 11-12-2003, 11:13 PM   #29
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I would have thought that they would just lock together. To get 2 sabers, just unlock them... The anim could be push the hilts together + twist. Or something.


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Old 11-12-2003, 11:57 PM   #30
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Yeah, that was my thought as well.


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Old 11-13-2003, 11:23 AM   #31
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I still think having the staff have it's own HPs is the best way to go (i.e. if someone goes 1 to 14 HPs over the staffs HPs, it breaks into dual sabers & if they go 15 HPs (or more) over the staffs HPs, it goes to single saber).

The reason I brought it up again is because I was just imagining what if someone went over the players HPs & the staffs HPs at the same time = the player & the staff hilt would get cut in half = that would just rock like a mountain. :-)


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Old 11-13-2003, 04:36 PM   #32
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Yeah, I think HP for the saber would probably be a good idea.


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Old 11-15-2003, 11:20 AM   #33
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I'd like to recommend something else also. Without a weapon you go into kungfu mode.

Kicks, punches and grabs. Maybe modify it a little to make it more appealing to some.

Also give the option to disarm with grab, and maybe take away a weapon.

Y'know just incase your force pull fails to grab a saber off someone's belt.

and to relieve someone of a firearm when you are without one.

I'd of course cause this to damage the item so as to not have two people in an ifinite struggle over one item.

Last edited by keshire; 11-15-2003 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 11-15-2003, 06:04 PM   #34
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Yeah, you'd go into melee mode when you've lost your weapons.

However, I still haven't decided what to do about the possibility of grappling and disarming. The thing is, in JKA is way easier to grapple/punch someone with a saber than it would be in real life. In real life, you'd probably just get cut in half when you move close.


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Last edited by razorace; 11-15-2003 at 06:14 PM.
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