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Old 11-06-2003, 08:33 PM   #41
StormHammer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The point of my comments was missed... if you want a game with tons of NPC's wandering around in a realistic environment, a dedicated FPS game like JA is not the place to look.
While I would normally agree with you with any other FPS, I'd have to disagree regarding this one. Firstly because the precedent was already set in the original Jedi Knight. Secondly because of the basic premise of Jedi Academy, in that you are a student of the Force, and Luke actually tells you about using diplomacy, etc. Thirdly...this series is moving slightly away from the 'dedicated FPS' style, which is no bad thing.

Quote:
But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point.
If you could try it, I would say go and play Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter. Unfortunately I believe it's release in the US was canned.

The graphics are good (possibly not as good as something like KOTOR, but they're still good - and probably comparable to JO), some of the levels are huge, and it has quite a few NPCs hanging around where they logically ought to be. Some run when the shooting starts...others like security details stand and fight. Some of the characters will speak to you. It also has some nice seamless transitions between space combat and FPS action.

You might also like to check out No One Lives Forever 2, particularly the Indian missions, where you have civilians in the streets, walking around (who will offer passing comments), while you're trying to sneak past the local police. In my view, the character detail and animation in NOLF2 is better than JA - although some of the models are lower poly counts. The graphics overall are better than JA's, IMHO.

Elite Force II - another Quake 3 tech game with comparable graphics to JA - also had some levels with a few NPC aliens - and lots of enemies on screen at the same time. Of course, places like Starfleet Academy and the Enterprise were chock full of NPC characters.

Take your pick.


Quote:
Originally posted by G_Moo
Hey, you guys aren't thinking like Jedi's. You don't have to kill everyone you see. All you have to do is disarm them, like a nice little good Jedi would do. Force Pull the weapons out of there hands, and they'll surrender, instead of fighting you.
I first noticed this when I was running around with the same mentality: "Gee, if I'm such a good guy, and not using my force power to attack, like Obi Wan said, why are all these guys dying?"
Well...the only problem with this idea is that you only start off with a low level Force pull in the earlier missions - so it is impossible to pull the weapons from the hands of your enemies. Only when your Force Pull level goes up can you actually grab the weapons out of their hands.

Another Force power that I tried to use, but without much success, was Mind Trick. Unless you can quickly duck out of sight...the effect wears off, they spot you, and you're back to square one. I know, because I tried it on the Sandcrawler level, and ended up with a howling army of Sand People after me - who still attacked the Jawas.

As for interacting with NPCs...I don't particularly care about that RPG-centric idea. I don't want to go up and enter into some long conversation with an NPC character. Just having them say something as they spot me would be enough - similar to the way Half-Life did it. They offer a comment...and you can 'use' them to get another comment. Simple and effective. What's wrong with that?

Quote:
Because you'll never be back around that part of the galaxy, your failing will have no meaning in the long run, so why bother including the idea?
The whole 'idea' is to breathe some life into the different environments. It is simply unrealistic having every level populated by people out to kill you. When you watch the movies, towns and cities are bustling centres...and only when the shooting starts do people start clearing the streets.

The other 'idea' is to return you to that morality scale. So if you kill innocents (or allow too many to die when you could have prevented it), you turn to the Dark Side...if you protect them, you go to the Light Side. I find that preferable to simply picking whatever Force power I choose at a whim...or having the choice whether or not to kill one person, and decide my fate, when I've already slaughtered a few hundred. It simply doesn't make sense in the overall context of the game. You are supposed to be a student learning the ways of the force, and not setting out to massacre people on every planet you visit. That is the context, to my mind - but the gameplay itself didn't actually give you that choice.

As for earlier comments about Jedi Knight and Dark Forces...if you actually cast your mind back, the aim of each level was not to kill everything in sight. In Dark Forces, I can remember just running through some areas without killing the Stormies - and just avoiding their fire. The game didn't log how many kills you made in each level - unlike the other FPS games of the time. Immediately that emphasised the fact that you should be focusing on the mission at hand, rather than clearing every level.

In Jedi Knight, when you started to get your Force powers going - you could pull weapons out of the hands of your enemies, and leave them. You could also use 'Persuasion' (a much better blanket-effect power, when compared to Mind Trick) in the later levels to simply walk past them. Again, the emphasis of the game was not on killing everyone or everything. You could complete the level with half the enemies intact...as long as you achieved your objective for the level.

So forgive me while I disgree they were supposed to be slaughter-fests. :P
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Old 11-07-2003, 03:13 PM   #42
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Well said, Stormhammer.

I found it incredibly difficult to be a "Jedi" and to actually not just kill everyone in sight. As a side note, if you yank the guns out of a stormie's hands, and they pick up another one, they'll shoot you again.

Perhaps the next JK game (if there is one) will include these kinds of details. After all, it would be something to set the game apart and make it better; it would make a real difference in how people see the game. It would also help to develop the differences between the JK series and most other FPS games that Stormhammer was talking about.


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Old 11-08-2003, 08:39 PM   #43
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I didn't mind the lack of civilian NPCs, but I'm biased, because my computer is an ancient Pentium 2 with only a GeForce 2 Video Card.

Maybe, if I had a better computer, I would mind. But its just me.

Civilian NPCS, in my opinion, was best implemented in Deus Ex, and hopefully, Deus Ex 2(I heard they cut down on random side-missions though ) Where what you did affected the mission and how you complete the game. You had a choice what to say; say the wrong thing, they turn hostile, say the right thing, you butter them up.

I was also hoping that the Droid Recovery mission on Tatooine had less Saber-Swining-Jedi-On-Force-Steroids, and more talking. But then, since when have you ever had a choice what to say in the Jedi Knight series, every conversation is scripted. I specifically put Mind Trick on level 1 for that mission(Don't ask why, I just thought it was "Cool").

If anyone played the Star Wars Episode 1 game with crappy graphics, I liked the approach they took for mind tricking a person. What they did was give a few options for interacting, and the one highlighted in Purple(?) was a Mind Trick option. The Mos Espa mission there was one of my favourites, I was; subconsciously begging the Tatooine missions to be like that.

Coruscant was disappointing, when I saw on the Tier Selection: Coruscant; I was like, WHOA! The biggest city in the Galaxy, I HAVE to see this. I was; terribly disappointed. Sure, you could see the traffic; but was that enough? Corellia, there were no civilians, so who the hell was the one who sent the distress signal? Lots of things don't make sense.

On not killing everyone thing, of course you have to kill everyone, they're bad guys, shooting at you, or trying to smack you silly with a gaffi stick or a tusken rifle, are you going to stand there and say

"Oh wow, a Gaffi Stick, can I see it?"

And consequently be whacked by it. I'd kill the sod immediately.

The decision to the Dark\Light side might not be the best, but it still does make sense, it doesn't matter if you're devoted to being a Jedi, look at Anakin, he didn't play with Dark powers, but still turned to Vader.

When you're angry, you're consumed entirely(I know, I've been extremely angry before), and Jaden felt betrayed by Rosh to turn to the Dark Side(IF you chose the Dark Side)

If you want a game with lots of civilians, play Hitman 1 or 2, I'd recommend playing 1, because it doesn't have ridiculous physics, it uses the improved(so called) Glacier engine for Hitman 2, and the physics are whack for some of the guns. You can shoot a guy with a dual Hardballer (Fancy name for the Colt 1911 45. ACP) and the guy could fly like 30-40 feet away.

Hitman 1 had a great level on Budapest, where you'd have to sneak past metal detectors in a crowded hotel, full of civilians.
[End Rant]
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Old 11-10-2003, 07:16 PM   #44
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On not killing everyone thing, of course you have to kill everyone, they're bad guys
That's kind of our point. Everyone shouldn't be bad guys. If they weren't then you wouldn't have to kill everyone.

Your description of the Deus Ex system sounds about right for a Jedi to me.

I've come to the conclusion that you can explain Corellia by saying that the mercs killed everyone on board. But that still doesn't feel quite right.

Anakin had used dark side powers by the time he was twelve. If you disagree, go read Rogue Planet. He had also read about the Sith back on Tatooine in his childhood. And it took more than one event to turn him completely to the dark.

If Hitman can pull it off, why not JA?


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Old 11-18-2003, 03:53 PM   #45
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I disagree completely. It's an FPS, the point should be to kill people. NOT just negotiate your way through everything. And stealth? Ha! Doesn't anyone remember the last time they had a stealth level in the JK series? It flat out sucked!!!

If we're going to change it so we can all be happy little Jedi, maybe we should just go jump around in skirts, too (no offense, ladies). We want to kill them, not be happy and nice. Seriously.


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Old 11-18-2003, 10:55 PM   #46
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i don't know about adding diplomacy to the next Jedi knight game, but they should definetely bring back civilians and the old morality scale. If you want to be a jedi you should have to act like it. Of course, civilians and innocent bystanders should be in logical locations. If I see some women standing in the middle of a group of dark jedi for no reason that would be silly. Put the same woman in a tatoine market place with a few other civilians and it would make sense.
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Old 11-19-2003, 06:02 AM   #47
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Well guys, it's official, KOTOR PC is out (should be arriving in stores soon if it hasn't already) and SWG just got support for Jedi AND buildable cities AND ridable vehicles (with the Space Expansion coming soon with starfighter combat).

So the SW RPGers and "big world full of npc's dreamers" have more options now...


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Old 11-19-2003, 07:37 PM   #48
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I sense that Kurgan doesn't like civilians... I sense a powerful new Sith Lord in the making...

Kryn, the examples of other games with lots of civilians obviously defeats your point. Just because many FPS's have no civilians and thus no morality except death doesn't mean that none should have them. Quake has had that flaw from the beginning, but not all series have... Try reading the rest of the thread before you make ridiculous posts like that, 'kay?


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Old 11-19-2003, 08:25 PM   #49
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Muhahahah! Well I "like civilians" in the sense that I'd love to see more of them in-game for atmospheric purposes.

I just didn't know how well a Q3 engine based FPS could handle them and still be a fun FPS (rather than an RPG). ; )


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Old 11-20-2003, 12:17 AM   #50
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I'm not a mapper/script writer, so I can't say what the game can handle in general. I will say that my computer can handle a few people running around if a fight breaks out. I do miss civilians in the game. Even JO had some people fighting with you on Bespin. If other Jedi can do the same in JA then I think that any computer that can run JA can stand to have a few other NPCs running around as well.
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Old 11-20-2003, 12:40 AM   #51
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there are no NPC's cause Luke faxes them before you go to tell them to get the hell out of there cause theres jedi buisiness afoot


yeah i would have liked more NPC's too but it was still good

and if you started killing all the innocent ppl you would pretty much have to go darkside before the choice is made

that would kinda mess up the story
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Old 11-20-2003, 09:32 PM   #52
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Grr... and here I thought Kurgan was an ally... but no!!! I am alone in my view of civilians, it seems.

Except JK, all the DF series have been mostly without civilians. Why add them? They'd just get in the way, and be irritating. Atmosphere? Who cares? I certainly don't. And Kurgan's right... I don't think Q3 could handle it. Some game engines are built to be able to handle it. Regardless of how many NPC's you can theoretically handle, it'll slow down. Just setting "g_corpseremovaltime 0" slows down my computer. And those are dead people who aren't doing anything, so... it would probably be a strain on most PC's.


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Old 11-20-2003, 10:13 PM   #53
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Wink muahahahahahahaah DIE DIE DIE!

i spawn civilians just to kill them--like jawas, useless imperial officers are great to beat the heck out of! wookies, c3pos, and r2 units included! lol


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Old 11-21-2003, 12:18 AM   #54
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Are having civilans in an FPS a main priority? - In the big scheme of things, probably not.

Are having civilians in an FPS more work for the developers to do right? Yes - which is why I can understand the desision to not include any. (As a wise little green dude once said - Either do, or do not...)

Are having civilians in an FPS (specifically JKA) technically feasible? Undoubedly yes - taking into account specific scenes and areas which would benefit from them.

Does having civilans in an FPS suddenly make it an RPG? Hell no.

If you were to include civilians in an FPS, would you HAVE to try and match the kind of NPC-content of games like KOTOR ? SWG? Or course not...

Does having civilians in an FPS help the feeling of immersion? Even if they do little more than just roam around, and then run for cover when the saber ignites? Hell yes.

Is a sense of immersion important to an FPS game? (Especially a SW FPS?) HELL YES!!

If Raven had had more man power and/or time avaliable to put into JKA, and therefore been able to include well-coded NPC's in appropaite places, would JKA have been a better game for it? - I have no problem with confidently stating - YES!
Those who aren't into NPC's would just ignore them and carry on shooting regardless - i.e. it wouldn't ruin their enjoyment.

...but for those of us who enjoy the immersion factor while playing games like these, it would have been a very welcome improvement...


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Old 11-21-2003, 02:13 AM   #55
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So I guess to sum up:

It's up to the modders now!


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Old 11-21-2003, 11:10 AM   #56
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IMO the absence of civilians wasn't the biggest flaw in the Coruscant level - you're spending most of the time on rooftops after all, like it was said. The few "public spaces" like landing platforms and that one street strip could use people though.

The biggest flaw is the boring walls! I'm talking about stuff like videoscreens playing commercials, neon ads, posters... stuff like that. Take any scene from the level and imagine some huge neon ads and vidoscreens pasted on the walls of the surrounding buildings, tell me it wouldn't look better. That would take some major re-texturing of the level though. I don't know hard that would be to do, but sure would make my day. Throw a few civies here and there and bob's your uncle.
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Old 11-21-2003, 03:25 PM   #57
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I also very much missed the civilians in the game... There weren't many: A few Jawas, some droids and a bartender!

If it's any consolation, the Reborn Ancient Jedi TC will feature civilians on nearly all levels ('cause I care about civilians, so that's my way of improving the "reality" of the game)!

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Old 11-21-2003, 05:23 PM   #58
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cicvians rock, turn tot he dark side killing them is even more fun
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Old 11-21-2003, 06:50 PM   #59
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T-Dogg, you're sort of right. But why would you be only on rooftops on Coruscant? We should have been able to run through some of the buildings and wake up people who then proceeded to run away or be consoled by the sight of the lightsaber, as your actions would mandate.

RenegadeOfPhunk - thank you. That's about the perfect way of putting it.

I'd love to see the modding community put it it, Kurgan (which makes me salute you, Tito). I just didn't see it happening back on JK2 very much, and I don't foresee a lot of people doing it for JA. While I look forward to seeing those that do, for most people it'll just be too much work - which is sad, but unsurprising.


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Old 11-22-2003, 04:36 AM   #60
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"But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point."

sof2 - in between levels you could just walk around in and see and kind of interact with people

morrowind(lower player polycount, high enviorment/fx/shaders)

call of duty if you consider the fact that you always have a sqaud with you and you fight massive ammounts of troops


I think for raven it was more of a time constraint.


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Old 11-22-2003, 05:21 AM   #61
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Deus Ex had tons of NPCs everywhere. It may be an older game, and not as visually nice as JKA, but it is still very much worth it.
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Old 11-22-2003, 08:33 AM   #62
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Wink

I concede. ; )


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Old 11-22-2003, 01:40 PM   #63
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deus ex 2 is commen out, so get that one
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Old 11-22-2003, 09:07 PM   #64
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RenegadeofPhunbk took the words from my mouth, that is how I would put it.
Having NPCs acting how they should and being where they should be adds a lot to the sense of immersion in the game, wich is something all Star Wars games need to have (just look when LucasArts is promoting some new SW game, it will ALWAYS say: "Immersive experience in the Star Wars universe with tons of characters, blah, blah, blah).
And come on, there's no way NPCs would ruin a gamer's experience, even if he does not care for NPCs.
As already stated before, the system could handle it easily.

As for SWG, well, when the game got out and the reviews and info surfaced, I must say I was really disappointed with that game. No way I'm paying that crapload of $ per month to have some disappointing experience. But that's just me, I understand that some people love the game and have fun with it, its just my own opinion.


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Old 11-23-2003, 12:24 AM   #65
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Originally posted by Dracofyre
Deus Ex had tons of NPCs everywhere. It may be an older game, and not as visually nice as JKA, but it is still very much worth it.
Going off topic for a second: The Deus Ex 2 demo is out.
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Old 11-26-2003, 07:41 PM   #66
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I'd like to see some levels with civilian NPC's in them by the modders. I'd also like to see them include them if another JK game ever comes out - and there's feelings both ways on whether one should or not. It might be more work, but it would be better - if you don't work, you don't get the reward.

Unfortunately for me, I can't even get KOTOR or Galaxies - I don't meet the specs for the first, and I don't have broadband, which sucks with Galaxies, so...


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Old 12-04-2003, 10:21 PM   #67
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bumb! Twas a good discussion!


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