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Old 12-05-2003, 03:26 PM   #1
Master_Keralys
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The meaning of [spoiler]'s death. NJO topic!!!

I was thinking about this a little bit the other day. One of the book reviews over at theforce.net books section was talking about how they felt that (these are both well-known by now)
spoiler:
Anakin's death in Star by Star
completely negated
spoiler:
Chewbacca's sacrifice to save him.

I disagree. From this point forward, if you don't want spoilers for the NJO (as in, any) don't read, cause I'm not putting the whole rest of the post in spoilers.



Since it has become clear that the NJO is about the development of Jacen Solo and his role in the universe, Chewbacca's sacrifice was not in vain, though Anakin died "anyway." The thing is, since Chewbacca saved Anakin, he and Jacen continued to debate the nature of the Force - which gave Jacen more insights. Moreover, without Anakin's help, much of what later happened in DT, AoC, BP and both EoV novels that was of great import to the story (his saving Mara, rescuing Tahiri, etc) would not have come about. It was also his leadership that kept the strike team on Baanu Raas focused and determined. Without him, Jacen would likely not even have been where he was to get captured.

And Jacen's capture was a critical turning point in the story of the New Jedi Order. It brought out the maturity and strength that we'd all been hoping to see in him, and it set him on a course leading for his eventual triumph in TUF (at least from what I've heard). So, Anakin's death was not in vain. It set Jacen on the course that would go on to save the galaxy. Thus, Chewbacca's sacrifice had an incredible effect and indirectly affected trillions - perhaps quadrillions - of citizens of the New Republic/Galactic Alliance.

Thoughts? Come on, Astrotoy7, I know you're out there somewhere...


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Old 12-06-2003, 02:55 PM   #2
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sleep on it....

Hi Keralys

Magnificent post once again..... I'm a bit spaced out at the moment.....KOTOR CAME OUT TODAY !!! (Australia) ...its 3.30 am here as I write....

I have read your post carefully, will sleep on it and post my reply tomorrow.....

I have to say its an exciting time for SW fans....

NJO finishing up, with TUF, JA and KOTOR, Ep III not too far away..... just too cool !!!

BTW Keralys ! Anyone who is a fan of SW/EU and story based gaming(RPG) will be blown away by KOTOR..... I think you'll love it .....!!! Check out the KOTOR forum and see what ppl are saying about it !!

http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisp...?s=&forumid=61


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:10 AM   #3
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Yea, you make good statements there. It was Jacen's destiny since he had that vision, and Onimi actually suprised me. I always wondered why Shimmra allowed a Shamed One at his feet...
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Old 12-07-2003, 03:12 PM   #4
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Well, firstly, Chewies death was a momentous event, not only in the NJO but in the SW universe. Here was one of the beloved characters from the movies meeting their end. This made alot of ppl switch off to the NJO from the get go.... (Needless to say the decision to kill Chewie came from Goerge Lucas himself, so as far as I'm concerned, it is canon......)

Chewie's death was a mechanism for NJO's storytellers to highlight our heroes' abilities to deal with grief. Until then, all the main movie characters had pretty much made it through the EU unscathed, despite facing some pretty fearsome challenges along the way..... Drawing attention to these character responses is vital if one is develop a story arc over a number of given installments. It is this ambition on behalf of the authors and producers that most impressed me about NJO. They were committed to make this a truly epic story. Until know, Skywalker, Solo and Co. seemed to get the cliched "trouble comes in threes" affliction, with each threat or significant story arc making up a 'trilogy' ie. The Thrawn Trilogy, The Jedi Academy Troilogy, The Black Fleet Crisis, The Correlian Trilogy...... Interspersed were some fabulous, and also highly forgettable 'one off' efforts, like Mike Stackpole's unique "I, Jedi", as opposed to more poorly conceived "Chldren of the Jedi."

OK, back to the NJO. In order to create their epic story arc, The writers had to put our beloved characters through the tials and tribulations associated with war and the inevaitable consequence of it....death. We got to see a side of our characters that we had not seen before, ie. Han and his family's grieving for Chewie was explored, in varying detail by all NJO authors in some way, shape or form. Very much so however, the two that bore the brunt of Chewie's death were Han and Anakin...

These two characters, usually cavalier and somewhat gun-ho, were now engaged in a deeper dialog about something far removed from the usual elements of SW lit, such as starfighters, lightsabers and starship dogfights.....

Inevitably, this affected all the characters, not just Han and Anakin. Each character reacted to Chewie's death differently - and this added and extra element of depth to these characters we supposedly knew so well.

Whether or not it was Anakin or Jacen that was originally slated for a dramatic exit form the SW universe, the stage was set... We all had a glimpse of the characters minds and now, every event that happenned to them in the struggle, could be felt and described more profoundly. This is the beauty of the multi-book story arc....

Any great story, historically and structurally follows a basic formula.

*Firstly, introduce your characters. Give the reader a sense of each character emotionally.

**Secondly, put your characters in a bad situation, to demonstrate their motivations in their actions.

***To conclude, It is now time for the characters to reap the consequences of their actions.....

Chewies death gave us a look into the minds of our core set of chacaters.

Subsequently, the events of the mission to destroy the voxyn queen and the fates of anakin and jacen placed them at the eye of the storm. Every subsequent ramification of these events will bear weight upon all of the core characters. Basically, it was a case of "When the going gets tough, then we'll get tougher" on behalf of the Solos and Skywlalkers, but this could also be applied to ther constituents of the GFFA(inlciding the Remnant, Chiss) who began to take the steps they believed was necessary to stop any further tragedies form occuring..... namely, the defeat/subjugation of the Yuuzhan Vong.

Jacen now emerges into the spotlight in a way he has never before. For all his reflectiveness, Jacen demonstrated an amazing strength of will in his ordeals in custody of the Vong, and under the torture and tutelage of the much wise Vergere(a magnificent character), who is now very much integral to the story as a whole -
*Vergere saves Mara Jade
*Vergere saves and instructs Jacen, not to mention Luke, on perceptions of the force
*Vergere provides Jacen and the GFFA with a vital piece of information.....the existence of a living/sentient planet

Even as other characters resume the fight, Jacen does not find answers as easily. His discussions with Sekot indicate as much. Even as I read 'The Unifying Force' , it is hard not to notice that Jacen is very much 'in character', ever thoughtful. Whatever the events of TUF, it is obvious that Jacen's story is far from over....

I believe the post NJO era will be very interesting as far as SW lit is concerned.....

much left to explore.....

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Old 12-10-2003, 08:45 PM   #5
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Interestingly enough, though apparently Jacen was originally the one slotted for death, I like the way he is built throughout the series better than Anakin. His development seems stronger: from a literary perspective, he is a "rounder" character than Anakin. While Anakin is not exactly flat, he is not as developed a character as Jacen, even by SbS. Moreover, he says something to that effect to Jacen in Traitor: he was like Luke, point him at the bad guys and he'd knock 'em down - but Jacen was always more thoughtful, and nearly always considered the consequences of his actions.

Interestingly enough, both characters progress fairly naturally from their pre-NJO origins. Anakin always used the Force almost nonchalantly, while even though Jacen was more gung ho in the YJK, he was still very thoughtful. Jaina, too, follows very naturally from her NJO character - just older. It ought to be interesting to see where the "Sword of the Jedi" thing goes in the post-NJO.

Astro - I'd love to get KOTOR. But I've only got a 600 Mhz PC, and little chance at getting a new one any time soon, so...


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Old 12-11-2003, 11:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Astro - I'd love to get KOTOR. But I've only got a 600 Mhz PC, and little chance at getting a new one any time soon, so...
.......maybe you can wish for an XBox for Xmas........... Here in Ozstralia we have gaming cafes, im sure they have them there too(?) Before my laptop, I used to pop in and have a go at the newest coolest games, and at not too high a cost.....

.....Yes, It will be a huge challenge for the EU authors to make something of the SW universe with the existing characters, I think another set of Vong-like bad guys would just be silly... I would love to read about the development of kyp, jaina, jacen etc and how they help redefne the jedi order

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Old 12-11-2003, 03:30 PM   #7
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I could wish for it... but I probably won't get it.

We do have gaming cafes, but they're ridiculously expensive, and a lot of content their is really ... um ... shall we say, wrong? But, anyway, I don't use them.

Another set of huge bad guys won't work. Neither will a whole bunch of little comebacks like in the Bantam books. I'd just like to see them once again taking on the duties of the Jedi in the past: guardians of peace in the galaxy. With less than 50 Jedi left by the end of the NJO - actually, it's probably closer to 30 - that's quite a chore. It'll be nice, though, if they follow Jacen, Jaina, and Kyp as opposed to Luke, Leia, and Han. I think that Leia and Han, at least, should be done, now that the NJO is over; I feel their story is done. Any of their parts should be secondary, like Lando always has been from now on. While Luke may still be important, I think it's time for him to be more like a Yoda in Ep 1: give guidance and direction, but (as in E2) fight only when necessary. Be willing to go kick some butt, but only fight when the younger gen can't do it alone. Moreover, I'd like to see Corran as a Master (is he already?), and see Kyp be the Mace Windu type of his generation: calm, powerful, confident - and one incredible Jedi Master. It'd be nice to see the younger gen of Jedi too: Valin and the like.


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Old 12-14-2003, 12:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
....... Moreover, I'd like to see Corran as a Master (is he already?).......
Have you read "The Final Prophecy" Keralys ??.... it holds the answer to that exact question !! I wont say any more !!

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Old 12-14-2003, 02:04 PM   #9
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o good. i thought this topic was gonna be on
spoiler:
shimrra's
death....haven't read TUF yet, see, so i don't wanna be spoiled.

wait................




anyway,

very good points, astrotoy, master keralys. i'd also like to point out that he supposed negation of chewie's death (with anakin dying) would touched on an important aspect of war-- it's futility. war is hell, and good people don't always die for a reason. fighter pilots like lujayne forge sometimes get murdered in their sleep. grand admirals get murdered by their most trusted associates (ok, so thrawn wasn't ENTIRELY good...) . the fact that chewie DID die for a reason which was at least somewhat good is reason enough for chewie fans to be thankful.
and it's not as if chewie's demise was completely devoid of glory & fire.... his last pose was one of heroism, of defiance, screaming at the moon which would spell his doom-- yeah, it'd take a friggin moon to kill the mighty chewbacca.


a few points to note:

Quote:
(Needless to say the decision to kill Chewie came from Goerge Lucas himself, so as far as I'm concerned, it is canon......)
EVERYTHING is, technically, approved by george lucas, directly or indirectly....
and chewie's death wasn't actually george lucas's idea per se.


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Old 12-15-2003, 12:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by benTantilles
EVERYTHING is, technically, approved by george lucas, directly or indirectly....
and chewie's death wasn't actually george lucas's idea per se.
Aw. cmon, theres been several articles and interviews on the official site and elsewhere that confirmes that GLs involvement in NJO has been very minimal, save for being informed about general story direction, and giving feedback about the deaths of these major characters....i cant really remember the specifics about the decison re chewies death, but definitely anakins death was GLs idea, changed from Jacen, orginally slated for the chopping block, so to speak....

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Old 12-16-2003, 02:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
but definitely anakins death was GLs idea, changed from Jacen, orginally slated for the chopping block, so to speak....
depends on what u mean by idea. like u said, GL's involvement in the NJO was minimal....he didn't offer any ideas per se. it's not like he told the authors specifically that anakin MUST die.....he merely vetoed the idea that jacen would die in SBS (some reason that having a anakin as a hero in another star wars era would confuse people). Del rey was the one which resorted to killing anakin.

similarly, George lucas didn't propose that chewie be killed off (it was supposedly DHC editor randy stradley who suggested that he be killed off at a group discussion regarding the NJO)...he merely approved of the idea.


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Old 12-17-2003, 12:41 PM   #12
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yes, that all sounds about right BenT....

what the hell is Randy Stradley doin at a NJO planning discussion.... what was he doing, planning not to get involved..... wouldve been great to have seen some NJO comix, especially since we all met Nom Anor for the first time in Crimson Empire(IIRC).....

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Old 12-17-2003, 03:15 PM   #13
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Yeah, it'd be nice to see it cross the disciplines, but it didn't.

I think those are some good points regarding the futility of war, but I think the point the authors have since made is that even a "futile" action can have far-reaching consequences. If you think about it, even with Jacen becoming who he was, was an indirect product of Chewie's sacrifice. ie, Chewie saves Anakin who is then able to lead the strike team to the worldship over Myrkr, where Jacen would certainly not have gone had it not been Anakin leading the mission and Jaina and many of his friends going on it. Thus, we can never see how our decisions may affect the future - in drastic ways.

From what I've read, GL said that if they were going to kill one of them, it had to be Anakin b/c of the confusion factor. I think that's rather silly; the people who read the NJO are usually familiar enough w/SW to get that it's Anakin Solo. Most people are smart enough to pick that up even if they aren't very familiar w/SW.

Oddly enough, though, I think that I like who Jacen has become better than who Anakin was/would have become. Anakin was a lot like Luke, an action hero type guy. But I like Jacen's thoughtfulness mixed with his power. I like him way better than I ever liked Luke - but don't get me started on Luke.

And never, ever get Master_Sunblade (fairly new to the forums, but a good friend of mine) started on Luke. He'll rave for hours....

No, I haven't read TFP yet, Astro. I got on the waiting list at my library about two weeks before it came out and I was already like 18th on the list... I'm down to about eighth now, but I'll get it for Christmas before I get it from the library, so... yeah.


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Old 12-21-2003, 08:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
No, I haven't read TFP yet, Astro. I got on the waiting list at my library about two weeks before it came out and I was already like 18th on the list... I'm down to about eighth now, but I'll get it for Christmas before I get it from the library, so... yeah.
Bugger. Too bad none of y'all live in Australia. I could start a SW EU blook club

Ive got pretty much all the novels ever released, and alot of the new generation comix(not the old marvel stuff)...

Its funny, no one I know is particularly interested in EU, so after ive finished them, they just adorn my bookcase.....

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Old 01-05-2004, 08:57 PM   #15
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That'd be cool. I don't own most of them, but I've read them all.

NJO could have been a great X-wing or KOTOR style game, too.

Also, with TFP - nice. I like that; it works well. Course they messed it up in TUF w/the ending and everything, but, yeah...


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