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Old 12-19-2003, 04:45 AM   #321
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Old 12-19-2003, 05:38 AM   #322
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Welcome back pbguy. We don't do this to have an impact on a future game, I do it because I enjoy it.

Windu: What the...? Wookiees have a powerful navy? That makes precisely zero sense. They are arboreal. How can they possibly compete in the water with an amphibian race? Kashyyyk is a forest world with few large bodies of water. What are you thinking? As if denying them Aircraft wasn't bad enough when they obviously have Aircraft... now they excel in a field that makes no sense for them to excel in. I challenge you to find a single person anywhere that will agree Wookiees would have no airforce but a strong navy.

As for C&C:Generals balancing rocket troopers, Frozted is right, Generals is not the best balanced game in the world and the multiplayer community is suffering because of it. And more importantly Aircraft feature a lot more in SWGB than they do in Generals, so a rocket trooper would be overpowered in SWGB, but not necessarily in Generals.


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Old 12-19-2003, 09:40 AM   #323
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pbguy - as Vostok said, i dont do this because i think lucasarts will listen to me (though i hope they do), i do it coz its interesting.

Vostok - show me where, in the films, it is stated that the Wookiees-
1. Are arboreal
2. Have few large water sources on their home planet
3. Have aircraft

The reason i denied the Wookiees an airforce is that they seemed the best candidate, as there are airforces for all of my other civs seen in the films, and to me, the Wookiee homeworld would be a lot like Earth but with jungles, and so a large Navy would be required to defend it, especially if they more-or-less keep to themselves, which can be backed up by the lack of wookiee forces or spacecraft seen in the films.

As for C&C, why is it that whenever i say 'C&C', everyone immediately thinks i'm referring to Generals? Westwood has have the Rocket Trooper in every one of its C&C games, and has been balanced each time.


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Old 12-19-2003, 12:04 PM   #324
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My comment on Generals is still relevant to any other Westwood game - there just aren't enough aircraft to warrant a dedicated anti-air expert in any of the C&C, Red Alert or Dune games. In SWGB, Aircraft play a much larger role and as such a rocket trooper would be too good.

Windu, you are quite right, it doesn't say those things anywhere in the films. But Wookiees are possibly the most written about race in EU, so I don't see much point in contradicting all of that. EU, as dislikable as some of it may be, is still relevant - especially something as widely taken as fact as Wookiee culture.

Besides which, you'd also be making the Wookiees very different to how they appeared in SWGB1, where they had quite good Aircraft and a not so good Navy.


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Old 12-19-2003, 11:59 PM   #325
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The Wookiees are arboreal. Even though they have huge water-masses, does it necessarily mean they have a huge navy? Does a squirrel living near a pond need to build ship?


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Old 12-20-2003, 03:26 AM   #326
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Anyway, enough of these Windu vs everyone else discussions. I've put the Trade Federation up, so comment on that.


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Old 12-20-2003, 05:44 AM   #327
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luke - as i said, the Wookiees (what we've seen of them) are pretty much confined to their homeworld, so of course they're going to build whatever they need to survive and defend themselves. Ships, unlike aircraft, dont need as much advanced technology, and you can always use a fleet to defend against an Imperial assault, plus defending fishing trawlers or the like.


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Old 12-20-2003, 06:36 AM   #328
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Except that I was under the impression there were few if any large bodies of water on Kashyyyk. Regardless, when you live in trees it doesn't make much sense to use boats as your main defence, aircraft are much more the better choice.

Don't presume because they don't wear clothes and speak in grunts that they are primitive creatures.


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Old 12-20-2003, 10:17 AM   #329
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I think that, given the release schedule, it seems likely that the real SWRTS (ie the one LA are making) will be tied into EpIII somehow. There are lots of rumours which suggest we'll be seeing a lot more of the Wwookkiieess, and possibly Kashyyk, in Ep III. If this is the case, they'll be able to base the civ more closely on what is in the film. We won't know until we see it whether the film will tie in with EU or contradict it.
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Old 12-20-2003, 12:23 PM   #330
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Vostok - a few questions id like you to answer.
1. Where, in the films, does it show Wookiees living in trees?
2. When did i say Wookiees were primatives?
3. I decided to have three of the eight civs go without a unit class, those being Mechs, Aircraft and Navy (everyone must have infantry). I decided that the Rebels shouldnt have Mechs because they are primarily a 'light', fast force and dont have the credits or space for large armoured vehicles. The Hutts dont have a Navy becuase Tattoine has no water. So then, tell me, which of the following civs should go without an airforce?
- Confederacy of Independant Systems
- Galactic Republic
- Galactic Empire
- Naboo Coalition (Royal Naboo + Gungans)
- Trade Federation
- Wookiees

THAT is why i chose the Wookiees to be the ones without an airforce, to make for more interesting and diverse civs and gameplay, while trying to keep as much realism in as possible.


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Old 12-20-2003, 12:58 PM   #331
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For those who say realism destroys gameplay, here's an example...


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Old 12-22-2003, 04:53 AM   #332
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Well, considering that this was done for GAMEPLAY reasons and has no effect on REALISM, i fail to see the point of your post luke.


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Old 12-22-2003, 01:23 PM   #333
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It's extremely unbalanced. It does make it diverse but it kills gameplay. Your claim is totally wrong.


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Old 12-23-2003, 09:04 AM   #334
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luke - prove to me that it's unbalanced. If you had bothered reading my template, you would know that the Wookiees have exceptional ground-based anti-aircraft systems and strong ground forces.

As i said, it makes for more unique and interesting gameplay without being unbalanced, and i challenge you to use facts to disprove what im saying.


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Old 12-24-2003, 01:47 AM   #335
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What about a civ without Troopers, too?

Enough of this silly argument. Windu will never agree with the rest of us even when he's the only one pushing the point. Look at my Trade Federation design already. I've been away for four days and no-ones commented on it.


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Old 12-24-2003, 09:08 AM   #336
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Vostok - denying some civs a unit class gives the whole game a more unique feel and challenges players to adapt to the varied units of the different civs. For example, if you play Imperial strategies with the Rebel Alliance, you will lose very quickly.

As i said, the Hutts go without Ships because Tatooine has no water.
The Rebels go without mechs because of their strong airforce and entrenching infantry, while the Wookiees go without aircraft because we have never seen any, and all of the other civs have aircraft in the films.
As to why no civ goes without infantry, a rifleman is the cheapest and most effecient unit to field, so it doesnt make sense for a civ not to have them, although i suppose you could class Battle Droids as mechs if you really want to.

Anyway, the point is that it gives greater realism, but gives dramatically different gameplay for different civs leading to more variety and greater re-play value, something which other RTS' like SWGB lack - and look at the result.


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Old 12-26-2003, 11:00 PM   #337
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I guess I'll simply stop arguing with you Windu. It has been proven in the past that even if you're dead wrong, you're still arguing...

Sorry Vostok, haven't been up here lately. I haven't seen your template yet. I'll check it out when I'm gonna have some spare time away from KOTOR


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Old 12-28-2003, 10:18 AM   #338
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Well I plan to put up the final installment sometime this week because after that my holidays are over, so hopefully there will be some Trade Fed comments before the Wookiees go up.


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Old 01-04-2004, 04:34 AM   #339
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Someone comment on the Trade Federation already because the Wookiees will be done mid-week.


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Old 01-04-2004, 03:39 PM   #340
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Ok I'll tale some time to comment since you need it so much

1. Trade Federation Droid Control Center: I suggest you boost this building's strength. People are really going to aim for these buildings in early games so boost their strength. To compensate, make them costlier to build then other CC.

2. Heavily Lower the ressource gathering buildings or grant another PK droid to compensate the ressource handicap with the droid control center.

3. What are the odds of a Battle Droid living long enough to be promoted Anyway this seems a bit odd. Battle Droids aren't soldiers who can normally gain experience, it should be in their programming or something. I don't see how a droid can be promoted.

4. I don't think the Droideka needs nerfing but I had the idea that the droideka shield would be up only when it stands still. While it's moving its armor would protect it. Just an idea, I don't know if it's balanced or not.

5. Perhaps your Troop Carrier requires a smaller carry capacity. 20 is...a lot.

6. The MTT has only a carry capacity of 20 while the Troop Transport also has 20? I thought the MTT could carry a lot more.

7. Corpses for wealth Nice idea. Metal would sound better though but wealth is ok.

Thats pretty much everything for now.
By the way, the only cannon that looked nice in SWGB is the Trade Federation's one


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Old 01-04-2004, 10:25 PM   #341
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1. Well I thought of that, but how is it different to other civs, really? For every civ your command center is vulnerable early game. But yes, I intended the Droid Control Center to be the most expensive of the command centers, but as I said I'm not thinking too much about prices, which are used to balance things, and that where a unit or building is expensive it should be obvious from it's description. I also said that Trade Fed buildings are fairly tough in general.

2. Good idea. I think I'll do both - though again I'm not speculating on costs. But PK Droids would make sense to be the most numerous starting worker.

3. The Battle Droid promotion (where Super Battle Droids don't earn experience) is to reflect what we see in the movies. We see different ranks of Battle Droid in The Phantom Menace, so I thought we needed different ranks in the game. But also, Battle Droids don't seem to be as single-minded as Super Battle Droids, they seem to have a bit more personality and initiative, more like C-3PO and R2-D2. I theorise that instead of the Droid Control Signal being a single "hive-mind" that instructs all Battle Droids, it instead is like hundreds of separate, remote droid brains. I've come to this conclusion looking at the way the droids interact with each other - they don't operate silently with a single purpose, they need to communicate vocally and physically with each other. As such I think experience would be earned just the same way as for humans, or at least the same way in which Artoo and Threepio learn experience.

4. I thought of that, and it would make for more realism, but that could be taken advantage of, particularly by the Naboo whose Mechs can shoot whilst on the move. This would force the Droideka to keep moving and not be shielded very often.

5. 20 may seem like a lot but don't forget my transports work on population cost. So while it can carry 20 Battle Droids, it can only carry maybe 10 sith and perhaps only six Droidekas.

6. I'm pretty sure the capacity of both the MTT and the Troop Carrier are identical. It looks to me like the Troop Carrier is just a droid rack the same as the MTT, but without the armour of the MTT.

7. Thanks . I thought Wealth would be more appropriate, because Battle Droids probably won't cost Metal to make (Metal is not plentiful enough to be needed for basic Trooper construction). They probably won't cost Wealth either, but it represents them being recycled and adding to the Trade Federation's economy.


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Old 01-05-2004, 01:39 PM   #342
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4. If you put it on the "Stand Ground" stance it should be fine but right they probably won't be shielded often...

5-6. If you watch TPM again, you'll see that the Troop Carriers are actually a lot smaller then the MTTs. That's the problem.


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Old 01-05-2004, 09:41 PM   #343
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Well I'm attributing the size difference to the complete lack of an enclosing armour hull on the Troop Carrier. I believe the actual Droid Racks have the same capacity.


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Old 01-06-2004, 12:41 AM   #344
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hmm I don't think so. It really is smaller.


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Old 01-06-2004, 02:36 AM   #345
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luke - i'm 99% sure that Vostok is right. If you have a look at the racks that are extended from the MTT, then at the racks on the carrier's, you will see they are the same.

A real life example of size difference would be the M-939 Cargo Truck and the M-2 Infantry Fighting Vehicle. Although both are around the same size, the M-939 can carry a LOT more people than the M-2, because a lot of space in the M-2 is taken up by electronics, weapons, ammunition, armour etc.

That would be the same thing with the size of the MTT - because of its weapons, armour, larger engine etc, it would have to be bigger to enable it to carry the droids into combat.


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Old 01-06-2004, 09:30 PM   #346
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Wow, Windu. Does this mean you have no objections to my Trade Fed design?


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Old 01-06-2004, 09:55 PM   #347
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OK I saw a picture I think they do have the same carry capacity. Ok I was wrong and you were right..for once

Nevertheless, for the sake of balance, I believe it carrying less troops would be better. Unless unloading takes more time actually then the MTT, this unit could easily swarm up a lot of troopers on the battlefield. Either that or you're going to have to nerf it down even more...


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Old 01-07-2004, 05:45 AM   #348
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Well it has pretty crappy armour, in fact it is one of the weakest armoured vehicles around because it's open topped. It isn't particularly fast either. I might make it amphibious actually, that could be interesting...

Of course I was right, it was a question about the movies . You shouldn't doubt my knowledge in this area .


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Old 01-07-2004, 01:10 PM   #349
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Well actually Vostok, i havent read your TF idea just yet, so i cant say whether i agree or disagree with it.


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Old 01-07-2004, 08:13 PM   #350
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Hmm amphibious...if it is you really should lower its carry capacity or sith will come right here and scream "balance"!!!
It is a good idea actually. Don't make it available too early in the game or make it fairly costly and it should be fine.


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Old 01-07-2004, 10:14 PM   #351
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Well perhaps one way to counter balance the capacity is to give it a delayed unload time - representing the droid rack extending. Sure it doesn't make sense for Sith riding in it, but it would still be a good way to make things more like the movie.


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