lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Troop wars or just another mech whore?
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 04-08-2004, 03:36 AM   #1
FroZticles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 774
Troop wars or just another mech whore?

In SWGB all people really did was mech whore I've done it and every player can say they have and if they say they haven't they are lying.

Would you rather the main unit in the next RTS to be a trooper or mechs?

How would they implement this make a limit on them? Make them really expensive? Push them to later tech levels so players have to rely on troops all through early and mid game?

Lets hear some ideas.
FroZticles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-08-2004, 04:51 AM   #2
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
I don't know how this can be done but the best thing to do is a combination of both.

I'm unsure about trooper wars. We did see a lot of them in SWGB but we also saw mech whoring and anything whoring...


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-08-2004, 05:42 AM   #3
Darth Windu
TSLRP Beta Tester
 
Darth Windu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 1,973
I think they should be as important as each other. In modern military combat (yes, i do realise it's different from Star Wars but hear me out) armour is really great, but vulnerable to anti-armour infantry, and so you have infantry and armour working together.

For the game, to make infantry 'better', you can build, you example, 8 Stormtroopers for every 1 AT-AT, and you're enemy will see the AT-AT further away due to it's size. Infantry are also really cheap and built quickly compared to mechs, and also in my template the Rebellion doesnt have any mechs.


Dark Lord of the Purists

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Darth Windu is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-08-2004, 07:19 PM   #4
saberhagen
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 407
In RL the thing that really makes armour/infantry combinations essential is terrain: tanks tend to have trouble in woods, built up areas, etc so they need infantry to go in and clear them out. In SWGB terrain didn't have that kind of influence on tactics, as woods were impassable to all units and the garrisoning of buildings was quite rudimentary. Maybe a new engine could give terrain a more realistic influence on combat, but it would probably be difficult to implement amd also more complicated to play.
saberhagen is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-08-2004, 11:29 PM   #5
Admiral Vostok
Lord of Star Wars Purists
 
Admiral Vostok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 2,393
I totally agree that troopers need to be made more attractive as an element of the army. Particularly with civs like the Trade Federation, whose troops were particularly weak, there really was no reason to buy them once you got out of the early tech levels.

C&C Generals made infantry more attractive by giving them abilities like capturing enemy buildings and garrissoning civilian buildings that vehicles can't do - however infantry still play a rather small role. RoN (and I do hesitate to bring it up, but I'm making a point) made it so you couldn't capture enemy cities without infantry - something that is crucial to winning the game. So I think the thing to do is give infantry in SWGB2 something they can do that Mechs can't.

Also perhaps as saberhagen suggested terrain should be a consideration. Perhaps woods and rock formations and other things could be impassable to Mechs, but infantry can walk right through them (at a slower speed). However this may give too much advantage to Air civs over Mech civs.

Perhaps infantry could be produced in groups rather than one at a time. I don't mean that they perform in little groups like infantry in RoN, but that when you click on the button to build Stormtroopers, five are built instead of one, but they are still independently controllable. This would let you build big trooper contingents quickly.

Or perhaps there are ways to get free infantry. For example you could have a building that every few minutes gives you free basic troopers. If units are free people will probably use them.


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

Check out Admiral Vostok's plan for a new Star Wars RTS
Admiral Vostok is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-08-2004, 11:58 PM   #6
Sithmaster_821
Ensemble Fanboy
 
Sithmaster_821's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: lost
Posts: 1,869
I dunno what game you guys are playing, but troopers play a BIG part in this game. T2 is just trooper wars, and, if they do go for the fast t3 and strike rush, play defensively w/ mounties and grenadiers and follow them into t3 for mech destroyers/air. Personally I think that troopers and mechs are about equal w/ troopers more popular early and mechs later.


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."-Albert Einstein
Sithmaster_821 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 02:29 AM   #7
Darth Windu
TSLRP Beta Tester
 
Darth Windu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 1,973
In terms of troopers, i was also thinking of adding-
- only troopers can capture cities
- troopers can walk through forests, mechs cannot

Maybe, in addition to the 'pop slot' idea and price/building time, infantry will be more attractive.


Dark Lord of the Purists

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Darth Windu is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 02:33 AM   #8
pbguy1211
PBGuy1211 The White
 
pbguy1211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,734
OMG... I hardly ever use mechs. Done properly, I don't even need a mech center. You'd be surprised how strong a mounted trooper in T2 is and how effective they are vs. Mechs. You can mass some mounties in t2 and take down an enemy who rushed to T3 very easily.


[edit] though I'll generally put a few MD's by my carbon guys while a few rooks try to strike rush me.



PBGuy1211 Mods! All available here.

Last edited by pbguy1211; 04-09-2004 at 02:49 AM.
pbguy1211 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 02:43 AM   #9
Darth Windu
TSLRP Beta Tester
 
Darth Windu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 1,973
and a group of Assault Mechs will wipe out your troopers without a problem


Dark Lord of the Purists

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Darth Windu is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 02:45 AM   #10
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Not while everyone is in T3...

We are talking about the role of troopers in later games. In early games, it is natural to be relying on Troopers.

In the longer games you can encounter, the role of the infantry goes down.


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 02:57 AM   #11
pbguy1211
PBGuy1211 The White
 
pbguy1211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,734
Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
and a group of Assault Mechs will wipe out your troopers without a problem
A: I'm not waiting until t4 to mount an attack on ANYONE.

B. In an RM games, no one... and I mean NO ONE will ever be able to mass enough assault mechs vs me to wipe out all my troops.

C. If they do have assaults, since I almost always use the rebels, at T4 I've always got a few air speeders (not to mention jedi later on) ready for defensive purposes. So your assaults are meaningless.



PBGuy1211 Mods! All available here.
pbguy1211 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 03:13 AM   #12
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Besides, with a good number of mounties, assaults are kind of useless. They just have to close-in and then it's over.


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 03:20 AM   #13
pbguy1211
PBGuy1211 The White
 
pbguy1211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,734
especially if it isnt a heavy assault mech.



PBGuy1211 Mods! All available here.
pbguy1211 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 04:05 AM   #14
Darth Windu
TSLRP Beta Tester
 
Darth Windu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 1,973
which of course means absolutely nothing because (we hope) no-one would be stupid enough to send out Assault Mechs without any escorts, but because SWGB2 wont (again, we hope) be a carbon-copy of SWGB.


Dark Lord of the Purists

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Darth Windu is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 08:07 AM   #15
FroZticles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 774
Guys have you played an inter+ game (this going to online gamers). If your a pocket you fast t3 if your wing you rush or in some cases wall off turrent up and fast 3. All of those people who manage to get away with it mass mechs. Ive vs Drunk, girl and all the others and it is how it goes. Rushers do build troops since they have there tcs already up but most of the time people do not bother.

If I was t3 a mountie wouldnt get a burn on me. Air conquers it and that food and nova on the 20 something mounties u could have used on teching and becoming as powerful as your enemy.

Once t2 is over goodbye troops the mech whorers have there factories up and the troop centers are left abandoned.
FroZticles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 04:23 PM   #16
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
OK I'm lost. What were you trying to say


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 04:51 PM   #17
MasterN64
Junior Member
 
MasterN64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Town of the Greats
Posts: 264
I'll get out the translator!
(Types in message)
$%$&*9(4#
(breaks)

So much for that. But I think he means that troopers can have their advantages over some units, such as assault mechs vs. mounted troopers, etc. But thats me best guess.


Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the presence of fear and yet the will to go on...
MasterN64 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 05:32 PM   #18
Admiral Vostok
Lord of Star Wars Purists
 
Admiral Vostok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 2,393
Yes, mounted troopers and grenadiers have their purposes, but if a future Star Wars RTS was to more closely follow the movies, these units would not exist in their current forms.

I'm talking about actual Laser Troopers, which are supposed to be the most numerous units in the game. As soon as people get access to Strike Mechs, many people don't bother with Laser Troopers.

Once they are Repeater Troopers they are very useful, but again these are not your basic Laser Troopers. Take the Trade Federation for example. In the movies, they had hundreds and hundreds of Battle Droids. In SWGB, as soon as you can build Droidekas and STAPs there really is no point wasting your money on the crappest of crap troops.

So while in the current game Mounties and Grenadiers are useful troops, lets focus on making Laser Troopers more attractive, because they just aren't once you hit T3.


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

Check out Admiral Vostok's plan for a new Star Wars RTS
Admiral Vostok is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 05:38 PM   #19
FroZticles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 774
Well noone really buys droidekas they are a waste of nova since they only counter troops and kill workers but so many things do that also.
FroZticles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-09-2004, 07:15 PM   #20
saberhagen
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Perhaps infantry could be produced in groups rather than one at a time. I don't mean that they perform in little groups like infantry in RoN, but that when you click on the button to build Stormtroopers, five are built instead of one, but they are still independently controllable. This would let you build big trooper contingents quickly.
You should try holding down shift.
saberhagen is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2004, 03:38 AM   #21
FroZticles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 774
lol vostok as I say to the noobies I train.

LEARN YOUR HOTKEYS!!!!!
FroZticles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2004, 10:37 PM   #22
Admiral Vostok
Lord of Star Wars Purists
 
Admiral Vostok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 2,393
Thanks fellas, I do use the shift key. I don't mean queue up several at a time, I mean produce several at a time. Even queued up, they still pop out one at a time.

If you think about it popping out one at a time is pretty unrealistic, because infantry are trained in squads, not on an individual basis.


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

Check out Admiral Vostok's plan for a new Star Wars RTS
Admiral Vostok is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2004, 03:01 AM   #23
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Which is why there is the famous Gameplay>Realism phrase

Hmm that doesn't really apply here...

Nevertheless, does it really matter? It's nothing major.


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2004, 05:52 AM   #24
FroZticles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 774
Well you can always build 5 troop centers than they come out 5 at a time
FroZticles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2004, 10:59 AM   #25
saberhagen
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
If you think about it popping out one at a time is pretty unrealistic, because infantry are trained in squads, not on an individual basis.
It depends on how many troopers one trooper on screen is meant to represent. In tabletop wargames there was always a figure ratio, so one figure actually represented more than one, so you didn't have to buy thousands of them. I suspect that sort of thing has influenced computer RTS games although it's never explicitly mentioned. When you think about it, 250 is hardly a large army, but that limit was forced by the limitations of computers.
saberhagen is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2004, 04:56 PM   #26
FroZticles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 774
It was more the limitation of the engine they were using.
FroZticles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2004, 03:04 PM   #27
Admiral Vostok
Lord of Star Wars Purists
 
Admiral Vostok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 2,393
I know what you mean by tabletop representations, but still I think with engines shaping up to what they are nowadays, it really would be better to have a whole heap of troops rather than a handful.


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

Check out Admiral Vostok's plan for a new Star Wars RTS
Admiral Vostok is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-17-2004, 01:13 PM   #28
Sithmaster_821
Ensemble Fanboy
 
Sithmaster_821's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: lost
Posts: 1,869
Vostok I prefer the gme the way it is now. You see, when troops are made one at a time, you get atleast something out a lot quicker. Im not waiting five times the time just to get something that shoots.

FroZ, in fact I usually play inter+ games, or I did, and I know pbguy does too. I almost never built mechs. Late game, I used mostly 'peaters and air and maybe some mounties. Yes mechs are a viable option, but sticking with troopers is much better with certain civs (like rebs and wooks). I think it mostly involves playstyle.


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."-Albert Einstein
Sithmaster_821 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-18-2004, 04:29 AM   #29
Admiral Vostok
Lord of Star Wars Purists
 
Admiral Vostok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 2,393
I think it mostly involves what civ you are. Does anyone use Battle Droids late game?


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

Check out Admiral Vostok's plan for a new Star Wars RTS
Admiral Vostok is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-18-2004, 03:23 PM   #30
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
You mean the Trade Fed's Battle Droids?

No, unless I'm really desperate.


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-18-2004, 11:11 PM   #31
Admiral Vostok
Lord of Star Wars Purists
 
Admiral Vostok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 2,393
Exactly. There should be something attractive about using Battle Droids or else people won't use them.


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

Check out Admiral Vostok's plan for a new Star Wars RTS
Admiral Vostok is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-18-2004, 11:24 PM   #32
Sithmaster_821
Ensemble Fanboy
 
Sithmaster_821's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: lost
Posts: 1,869
I use them as cheap fodder units, just pump 'em onto the battlefield (you'll have the recs late game), and let them take hits for your mechs


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."-Albert Einstein
Sithmaster_821 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-19-2004, 02:01 AM   #33
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
They just don't last long enough to be worthy canon fodder. I prefer to save up for a few more strikes or MDs.


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-26-2004, 08:25 PM   #34
Compa_Mighty
The Ancient Forum Sage
 
Compa_Mighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,453
Making clear I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if I repeat someone else's ideas.

As Windu says, not all civs should have "mechs". Even more, the "mech" class should not exist at all.

I think we all want a game where all factions are radically different from each other (a la Starcraft) to capture their unique Star Wars feel.

So, for example Rebels have exceptinally good pilots and the Empire doesn't (Vader doesn't count).

Empire has walkers, and the Rebels have nothing equivalent to that.

Maybe Rebels should be faster soldiers to hit and run. I don't know. I really hope the next game is more accurate to the movies. I loved SWGB but sequels have to be step further, don't you think?


Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Forum Record: Longest term without changing avatar Breaking my own record as you read.
Compa_Mighty is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Empire At War > Community > GalacticBattles.com > Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds > Galactic Discussion > Troop wars or just another mech whore?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:35 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.