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Old 04-15-2004, 01:31 AM   #1
Sam
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The problem with sabers.

After countless duels in JA it seems the sabers are NOT balanced.
The problem isn't that some attacks are stronger. The problem is that the staff and the dual sabers do not have a swing limit.

The Staff hits as hard if not harder than single saber red stance but it swings faster than blue stance and it can swing forever with out leaving you open.

Any staff user that knows this can kill any single saber user.

I know you are gonna tell me to use another stance but the truth is Yellow and blue are useless against Staff and dual sabers.


By adding a 4-5 swing limit on staff and dual saber this problem would be solved.


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Old 04-15-2004, 04:37 AM   #2
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*sigh*

YES staff is overpowerful to any other styles that DON'T know what their doing...


YES duals is very defensive and can rape any other style that DOESN'T know what their doing


YES single takes the most skill but any seriously skilled single player can defeat all other styles




^ Tutorial on this coming soon!
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Old 04-15-2004, 04:57 AM   #3
El Sitherino
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interesting, I've killed countless numbers of people using staffs and duals with single saber.


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Old 04-15-2004, 06:52 AM   #4
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Don't tell me I don't know how to use the single saber. I started learning how to use the single saber when Jk2 came out. In Jk3 I rarely come across someone I can't kill.

MOST Staff/Dual users are newbs and just hold down the attack button. Everyone has killed millions of those people with just a few red sideswipes. I am not talking about them. I'm talking about the few who know the staff combos/moves and know how to use what I said in my first post.

When it comes down to the highly skilled staff user will defeat the highly skilled single user just because he can swing more with out stopping.


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Old 04-15-2004, 07:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Don't tell me I don't know how to use the single saber. I started learning how to use the single saber when Jk2 came out. In Jk3 I rarely come across someone I can't kill.

MOST Staff/Dual users are newbs and just hold down the attack button. Everyone has killed millions of those people with just a few red sideswipes. I am not talking about them. I'm talking about the few who know the staff combos/moves and know how to use what I said in my first post.

When it comes down to the highly skilled staff user will defeat the highly skilled single user just because he can swing more with out stopping.
I was never questioning your skill. And I never use red stance.
I can see your point about the skilled staff user.Mostly what I do is just keep practicing (yes, I know, you already practice)

PS: this is in no way an attack on your skills, just saying.


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Old 04-15-2004, 07:27 AM   #6
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It doesn't help that the staff and duals have more headshot moves than single sabers.

It all came down to development time.

And yes they can chain infinitely. I'm pretty sure even placing the chain limit flag in the saber def file won't work because the code's just not there for Dual/Staff.


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Old 04-15-2004, 07:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by --ZeeMan--
*sigh*

YES staff is overpowerful to any other styles that DON'T know what their doing...


YES duals is very defensive and can rape any other style that DOESN'T know what their doing


YES single takes the most skill but any seriously skilled single player can defeat all other styles
Any seriously skilled player can easily defeat any player who
doesn't know what they are doing with any saber... (the fact
remains: staff and duals are more effective than one normal
saber...)

All sabers should be as effective or they should have some
other advantages/disadvantages... (like for example limited
force powers when using staff or dual...)
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:48 PM   #8
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try me and my single against any staff or dual player :-)




^ Tutorial on this coming soon!
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Old 04-15-2004, 03:41 PM   #9
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Ah, well, even in SP I've always found that it's just about technique. I can't play online, but even the most skilled AI can be fairly easily defeated with a single blade: it's just a matter of patience and timing.

But of course they're stronger; they have two blades instead of just one. My input would have been that you can't use any powers that come out of your hands when you're using staff or doubles, so you get a balance that way. I don't know how else you'd do it.

What I have found helpful, though, is the OJP Enhanced mod (which I espouse everywhere) - it takes roughly the same amount of skill with any saber style, and looks to be better. Trust me, when Razorace gets Enhanced v.3 out, it'll be useful to people like you to get the kind of balance you're looking for.


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Old 04-15-2004, 11:15 PM   #10
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I find Staffs and dubble sabers the easyist to beat...they have good attacks but lots of weaknesses. Its all about your timeing... and for spical moves...9 out of 10 times they can be countered...just find there weaknesses
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Old 04-16-2004, 04:42 AM   #11
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actually sam, all 3 are very balanced

its true blue is useless against staff and duals, no doubt about it, but yellow and red can kill ANY dual/stafer

its true they have infinite combo swings, but IT doesnt mater at all

pm me and i can show you in a duel server
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:54 AM   #12
Lathain Valtiel
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Quote:
Originally posted by --ZeeMan--
try me and my single against any staff or dual player :-)
Erm.. I'm not impressed by your boasting. I recall fighting a Zeeman on Chop Shop FFA, and I recall consistently killing you if you were that person with yellow sideslash counter tactics as red charging didn't work well on you. If I can do it with yellow any staffer or dualist could easily kill you with similar tactics if they had half decent skills.

And I laugh in the face of anyone who dares say that the three styles are balanced. The only real weapon yellow has against dual and staff is the constant use of repeated alternating sideslashes after coming in from midair and crouching. Need I pull up my detailed list of why dual and staff are overpowered? I interestingly recall nobody challenged it very effectively, especially after a few clarifications.


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Old 04-22-2004, 11:18 PM   #13
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I would never argue all three stances are balanced, but I do believe that the three saber TYPES are fairly well balanced (if you take advantage of all the stances each type includes), if the right console cvars are used.

People may still disagree of course, but oh well. ; )


But the game was not designed with the idea that a person would only ever use Fast Stance or only ever use Strong Stance and never change. That's why they give you the option to use more than one, unless you were foolish and didn't give yourself full Saber Offense with single.


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Old 04-23-2004, 01:24 AM   #14
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I've dueled since JK2 came out in 2002 and I could safely say that I've never seen any really skilled dual or staff saberists. There are simply no combo moves that you can work with them, they have infinite chains, yes - but the attacks that you can do with them are far less coordinated than that of single sabers. Special moves by these sabers can easily be countered by uppercut or dfa and any other chain attacks can easily be dodged and countered by red.

On the contrary, I've seen much more skilled players who use single. Not those who only use red, but the duelists who use all three stances are the most skilled in JKA. In my opinion, there is only one advantage for duals and staff and that is defense. As for its damage, I think it really depends how the saber settings are set on various servers...
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Old 04-23-2004, 06:31 AM   #15
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Staff and dual are automatically unbalanced in FFA due to point spending issues and their relative power. Single has the most suicidal specials (Exception lunge, but dual gets a more powerful version of it, and no i don't mean twirl). And i don't understand where the no coordination bit comes from. Elaborate.

For the record, I use all three stances, though admittedly I usually stick to yellow and red unless I KNOW only blue will land a particular hit. And lunge. Gotta have lunge for those pesky kata users.


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Old 05-02-2004, 01:50 PM   #16
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Well, for one - staff has much less options than single does. Staff and duals truly only have one direction of attack - attacking forward (side to side is basically a slightly slanted version of forward attack) - it is a lot less coordinated than what you can do with a single saber. Many, many times I see staff users ending up running after their opponent swinging their saber like crazy. Since there's an unlimited chain you can do with staff or duals, it often causes its users to go nuts and therefore cause them to die.

In ffa situations, I would consider staff/duals and single to be relatively even. Staff and duals can affect multiple opponents at once, however, single has more accuracy in pointing out single opponents and taking them out quickly.

Unless you're talking about playing on chop shop, then I would give staff or duals the edge simply because the fact that they have two blades. Two blades would mean greater chance of getting in the first strike and on that server, it'd mean a one hit ko. Combined with speed, it's the easiest way to win on that server.

Another thing, the butterfly move with staff is completely outrageous. After the move is already done, you can still pick up huge damage if you walk into it.
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Old 05-02-2004, 02:56 PM   #17
Lathain Valtiel
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While staff and dual DO have less options, theya re all relatively more powerful.

But you forget that due to the second blade and weird as hell animation, staff and dual's forwards, and MAYBE their sides can hit somebody behind them. Getting hit by dual's foward while you're behind them is a 60% headshot, and I think we can agree that dual has randomly screwy damage. I've seen this tactic being used and abused on duel servers.... Simply swing forevers with dual and back into them.. Sadly, it works.

You also forget about backstab. With dual, I don't think i need to state the power of it's backstab, which pwns all other backstabs by miles. Hell, just by touching the left blade (which moves to one position then stays there), you take about 20-30 damage if nicked. As for staff.. You can switch to yellow, do it's sweep backstab, then switch on the second blade for nice damage via the second blade.

Also, staff has another trick. You can switch to yellow, do a combo, and when you know it'll hit switch on the second blade. The animation of the yellow strike (most notably sideslashes, which are yellow's best move) will usually stay, only with more damage.

Why you ask? You see, I was told by a dual user who uses the superlunge of dual that apparently the attack power of the right blade goes up when you switch on the second blade. Seeing as many duels as I have, I'm inclined to believe it.

You CAN counter butterfly with red forward diagonal sweep, though if you don't kill them with it you're a sitting duck.


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Old 05-02-2004, 05:02 PM   #18
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Sometimes if I'm lucky, i can hit them with a red swipe in the middle of the BF, and get out alright, by simply jumping. It usually does not work, but if you got the timing....




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Old 05-02-2004, 10:00 PM   #19
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Lathain, you are inclined to what you believe in. However, it comes from my experience that a patient single saberist can always defeat any dual or staffer in a duel. To be honest, I have never come across one dual or staff player who has beat me when I'm not lazy or bored. In all of JKA dueling, patience is the essential key.
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Old 05-03-2004, 09:00 AM   #20
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Why is his point so difficult to grasp?

Of course the more skilled saberist will win the majority of duels he's in, regardless of which saber type he uses, but what Lathain is saying is that a single saber user is at an inherent disadvantage against a skilled staff or dual saber user due to the fact that they can chain unlimited attack combos.

He backs up his claims with observed data that he's gathered and a knowledge of how the game mechanics work, while you go strictly by what you've personally experienced. Your argument isn't nearly as sound.
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Old 05-03-2004, 02:04 PM   #21
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?? Did I not post my points?

Quote:
Originally posted by Frank1212
Well, for one - staff has much less options than single does. Staff and duals truly only have one direction of attack - attacking forward (side to side is basically a slightly slanted version of forward attack) - it is a lot less coordinated than what you can do with a single saber. Many, many times I see staff users ending up running after their opponent swinging their saber like crazy. Since there's an unlimited chain you can do with staff or duals, it often causes its users to go nuts and therefore cause them to die.

In ffa situations, I would consider staff/duals and single to be relatively even. Staff and duals can affect multiple opponents at once, however, single has more accuracy in pointing out single opponents and taking them out quickly.

Unless you're talking about playing on chop shop, then I would give staff or duals the edge simply because the fact that they have two blades. Two blades would mean greater chance of getting in the first strike and on that server, it'd mean a one hit ko. Combined with speed, it's the easiest way to win on that server.

Another thing, the butterfly move with staff is completely outrageous. After the move is already done, you can still pick up huge damage if you walk into it.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:04 PM   #22
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You need new ones. Staff and dual do backwards damage, which nobody who has seen a person who swings to get a backwards hit can deny, and if you take katas into account, they do 360.

And not ALL users go nuts with the staff. Those that don't have an incredible advantage in that their attacks do not leave them as open on the whole, their recovery is much greater than all single styles with the rare exception of that red diagnal forward slash that can happen, but you usually die by then, and the fact that they have unlimited chain to exploit. You simply do not have the raw power and speed of staff and dual with any style of single, and almost all of single's good stuff winds up on staff or dual in improved form (Dual's double lunge, staff's improved yellow sideswipe if timed).


In Force FFA you are automatically wrong on equality due to the aforementioned force point spending required to get staff and daul's full offensive power outside of saber locks being way lower deal. And in saber lock you can always use Force push or simply bind attack to the mousewheel if you want to cheat.

In NF FFA you have more of a point, otherwise no.

Dual/Staff have blatant advantage on Chop Shop.

Really the only thing single has going for it is red, and trust me, a staff/dual defensive person is the bane of red even more than yellow. You swing, they step out and tear off your health with their rapid staff dual swings on the recovery. I had to be extremely cheap to win a match against that kind of person (Time limit victory). Now you can use yellow, but again it's suicidal unless you're a single god.


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