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Old 05-24-2004, 08:51 PM   #1
The Saxman
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Green, Yellow, and ....Blue?? (JK1 spoiler)

Hi,

I own JK1, Mots, and JO. In JK1 lightside Boc smashes Kyles green lightsaber, so he switches to Yun's yellow one. Ok so far. BUT WHERE DID HE GET THE BLUE ONE IN OUTCAST! I've looked and I can't find out. Apparently he has the same blue one in Academy. Incidentaly from the into to Outcast it was directly after the battle with Jerec in JK1 that he gave his lightsaber to Luke. That leaves no room for Mots, but where did the blue saber come from, and if they changed it for NO reason then why does he still have the same one in Academy?
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Old 05-24-2004, 09:51 PM   #2
Kurgan
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Re: Green, Yellow, and ....Blue?? (JK1 spoiler)

SUPER SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE JK SERIES BELOW But then the games have been out long enough I think for people to know what they are reading...

Quote:
Originally posted by The Saxman
Hi,

I own JK1, Mots, and JO. In JK1 lightside Boc smashes Kyles green lightsaber, so he switches to Yun's yellow one. Ok so far. BUT WHERE DID HE GET THE BLUE ONE IN OUTCAST! I've looked and I can't find out. Apparently he has the same blue one in Academy. Incidentaly from the into to Outcast it was directly after the battle with Jerec in JK1 that he gave his lightsaber to Luke. That leaves no room for Mots, but where did the blue saber come from, and if they changed it for NO reason then why does he still have the same one in Academy?
My hunch (based on reading between the lines of statements from Raven employees who worked on JK2) is that LucasArts, desiring to exert their control over Star Wars content in games, and to appease LucasFilm (in light of George Lucas's new attitudes about the Prequels and the Original Trilogy) decided to force Raven to give the characters in Single Player only "canon colors" for lightsabers. Meaning blue and green (and sometimes purple) for good guys, red for bad guys. And since green had already been used in a game, and so had purple, all that was left was blue.

With Kyle's plain brownish white outfit, it sort of went with it (adding a little color to his otherwise drab khaki outfit).

There's no real in-universe explanation, none.

(Which is why, for me, I played Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy using an orange saber. I also chose to use the "Mercenary 2 Pack" skin that has Kyle wearing a black outfit, more similar to what Luke wears and what Kyle wore in Mysteries of the Sith. As far as I'm concerned, the orange saber Kyle uses in MotS is the one he gave to Luke and the one he got back and continues to use.)

LA/LF seems to be more stringent with "adherance to canon" with games when it comes to Single Player than with multiplayer, which is why we get to choose any color for MP.

Why was it okay for JK1/MotS? I think the simple answer is that these were both made before the prequel films. Ie: back when there was more room given to the Expanded Universe to speculate about what happened before and after the movies and the little fine details like that).

There seems to have been one lapse though, by having a few of the "Jedi Helpers" have yellow blades.

Now that JA has come along it seems that they have relaxed their standards a bit and we're allowed to use more colors (but not Red, unless we turn bad, then we ONLY get red, unless you tweak the settings).

When I played through JA I noticed one or two bad guys with yellow sabers, but I think this was some setting I messed with or possibly the interferance of a mod. Normally it's just red for the bad guys.


Me, I don't have a problem with a rainbow of saber colors, but it seems that LucasFilm/LucasArts does, to a degree.


According to official EU continuity and the backstory of Jedi Oucast, MotS really happened. Why? Because the whole reason Kyle gave up the Force and his saber was because he "almost fell to the Dark Side."

There was no evidence of this during his battle with Jerec (since Official Continuity assumes he took the "Light Path" or none of the other games would have happened for obvious reasons).

Kyle calmly resists Jerecs taunts and strikes him down in self defense. He shows no anger, no hatred or inclinations for evil in the final cutscene, in fact he seems very calm and peaceful, despite all he's been through.

However it is in MotS that we see Kyle "plunge to the Dark Side." Did he really fall or was his judgement temporarily clouded? You decide. But whatever it was, it was enough to scare Kyle into giving up the Force, since he didn't trust himself to stay away from the temptation of all that power.

He did almost kill Mara after all...

One would think that the temptation to harness the power of the Valley of the Jedi for his own power (Darkside path) would have been more of a temptation than the one he faced in MotS, but remember there were both evil AND GOOD Jedi spirits trapped in the Valley. Whereas in the Sith Temple the spirits were almost certainly entirely malevolent. Likewise Kyle may have gotten overconfident that he could resist any temptation and didn't realize it was "turning him evil" before it was almost too late.

I once figured it all out and I think there was still room for MotS to happen, but only 1 or 2 years maximum if we factored in Jedi Outcast. But the storyline's all official (assuming you went lightside).

I doubt JA will be detailed in the EU except in the most vague terms, since your character was so customizable and you had so many options. At most they'll probably say, Jaden Korr a student of Kyle and Luke helped uncover and destroy a Sith cult started by Tavion and the conspiracy to resurrect Marka Ragnos.


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Old 05-25-2004, 01:56 PM   #3
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WARNING! MAJOR JK spoilers and some MotS spoilers ahead, like Kurgan's post. But chances are you've read Kurgan's post already, so I can't really give that much more away, can I?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
According to official EU continuity and the backstory of Jedi Oucast, MotS really happened. Why? Because the whole reason Kyle gave up the Force and his saber was because he "almost fell to the Dark Side."
Actually, one could make the argument that they're talking about JK when they say Kyle "almost fell to the Dark Side."

Consider the JK cutscene where Kyle defeats Maw and is given the choice of killing Jan to save his life and join Jerec or to refuse and be killed. The raw emotion Kyle expresses in the cutscene says volumes. It seems to me that Kyle was so enraged at that moment towards Jerec, his father's murderer, that he was willing to do anything to take revenge, willing even to abandon his values, sacrifice those he loves and use the power of the Valley of the Jedi for evil purposes. This is a guy who used to work for the Empire and has used Concussion rifles. He knows that power can get you far. He also does not fully understand the nature of the Force. He has no Obi-Wan or Yoda to tell him that vengeance and anger can lead to the Dark side. That is why Kyle acts like he does in the Dark side version of the story.

But this is assuming that he chooses the Light side. I'm sure the prospect of turning to the Dark side was tempting indeed for him at that moment. Wouldn't you want to kill a tyrannical being who murdered your father? Especially after Maw's taunting of how your father's head was cut off and put on a stick for public humiliation. Fortunately for both himself and the galaxy, Kyle realized at the last moment that falling to the Dark side would make him no better than Jerec. It was still a close thing, though, as Kyle had to make a conscious effort not to kill Jan and take the easy path to darkness. That moment, when Kyle was willing to fall to evil, must have deeply troubled him, making him doubt his ability to resist the Dark side and fear its allure. That is why he abandoned his Jedi legacy and gave his lightsaber to Luke.

I make this argument because quite frankly, I have some problems with accepting MotS. I've never played the game, but the little I've heard sounds rather strange to me. Fighting undead zombie Jedi and statues? Sounds like a sci-fi Resident Evil reject, if you ask me.

As for why his saber is blue in JO, I came up with a background for that. Perhaps Kyle was one of the first Jedi students at Luke's academy on Yavin IV. According to the Jedi Academy trilogy books, there were initially twelve Jedi students. Only about half of them are actually named in the books, leaving the option open that perhaps Katarn was one of them. One of the rites of passage of being a Jedi is constructing your own lightsaber. Since Kyle never created his own, he was given the task of making one for his own use. However, Kyle was still unsure of his abilities, terrified that he would fall to the Dark side. Perhaps the encounter with the spirit of Exar Kun only heightened his uncertainty. He decided to leave the academy, convinced that he would be better off as a gun-toting mercenary, where there's no clear-cut moral obligations. Then the events of JO lead him back to the Jedi ways where he finally overcomes his fear and doubt.

I know the story's just a way to explain why Kyle has a blue saber in JO. In reality Lucasarts probably just wanted to keep closer to "canon," as Kurgan said. Heck, they may have just thought blue made Kyle look cooler. In any case, I really don't sweat it that much.


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Old 05-30-2004, 12:56 AM   #4
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http://www.thelightsaber.com/history1a.htm

That site should solve your problem.

Becareful. there Ep3 spoilers




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Old 06-08-2004, 11:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neverhoodian
Actually, one could make the argument that they're talking about JK when they say Kyle "almost fell to the Dark Side."
Then why didn't Kyle give up his lightsaber to Luke right then and there instead of fighting on for the rest of the game?

Oh sure, he had to rescue Jan then and he had to kill Jerec (well he didn't "have" to, his goal of stopping Jerec from threatening the galaxy would be good enough reason).

There's no hint that he wanted to give up the Force and the lightsaber at the end of the game, so again I think the MotS incident makes sense.


Quote:
He has no Obi-Wan or Yoda to tell him that vengeance and anger can lead to the Dark side. That is why Kyle acts like he does in the Dark side version of the story.
He has the spirit of Qu Rahn to give him sporadic instruction, just as Luke had Obi-Wan's spirit after ANH, until he started training under Yoda. Kyle likewise trained a bit under Luke after awhile.

Like Luke, much of Kyle's training was "on the job." And while this seems "unrealistic" to some, remember that the Jedi trained that way in the canon, though in the prequels we learn that they learn "from birth" to perhaps age 10 as a "youngling" or something like that, then they go on missions as a Padawan and learn by doing. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Quote:
That is why he abandoned his Jedi legacy and gave his lightsaber to Luke.
The fact is, he RESISTED temptation and was fine for the rest of the game, even when Jerec was on his knees begging for a "death blow" for Kyle to strike him in anger. So did he look back at a momentary "moment of temptation" (which he had successfully resisted) and then give up on the Force? I don't think so.

Quote:
I make this argument because quite frankly, I have some problems with accepting MotS. I've never played the game,
Until you play it, I think you can't judge it quite so harshly just because it "sounds" odd to you.

It was made by LucasArts, and uses the same engine and characters. It is in all ways as much a part of the official storyline as the previous game. Just because it's an expansion, you reject it?

Quote:
but the little I've heard sounds rather strange to me. Fighting undead zombie Jedi and statues? Sounds like a sci-fi Resident Evil reject, if you ask me.
This isn't unprecedented in the EU. Read the "Tales of the Jedi" comics, which are also an official part of the Expanded Universe. We've got all sorts of weirdness happening in the "Dark Empire" comics as well.

Quote:
One of the rites of passage of being a Jedi is constructing your own lightsaber. Since Kyle never created his own, he was given the task of making one for his own use.
Which is why we assumed that the orange one he had in MotS (which took place before Jedi Outcast) was "his lightsaber."

It makes more sense to me that Kyle would build a lightsaber THEN almost succumb to temptation, THEN doubt his abilities, THEN give up THAT lightsaber to Luke.

He wouldn't doubt his abilities, then join the Academy anyway, then build a new lightsaber only to give it up to Luke in a very short period.

If his heart wasn't in the training, wouldn't Luke have broken it off before he "finished" and built his lightsaber? Then again, perhaps Luke wasn't that great of a teacher and didn't know what he was doing...

Quote:
However, Kyle was still unsure of his abilities, terrified that he would fall to the Dark side. Perhaps the encounter with the spirit of Exar Kun only heightened his uncertainty.
Perhaps, though again, he encountered all sorts of stuff before this. Why invent an encounter with Exar Kun to explain why he was having problems? If you want to pretend MotS didn't exist fine, but I'm saying there's no reason not to, other than you heard it sucked.
Trust me, try the game out first and see if you still are biased against it...


Quote:
Then the events of JO lead him back to the Jedi ways where he finally overcomes his fear and doubt.
He doesn't overcome his fear and doubt though, he thinks that gaining the Force back will let him avenge himself (again). Kyle is a guy prone to vengance seeking against those who he considers to have wronged him (the Empire, Jerec, Desann, etc).

Maybe some other stuff happened to make him have a blue saber, who's to say? I just think that MotS is a good enough explanation as any as to why he "gave up the force." The Blue saber is simply an anomaly that has no explanation in-universe.

It's a little like the "klingon forehead problem" in the Star Trek community.

So I think you either pretend that Kyle's lightsaber was blue all along (including during MotS) or you pretend it was orange in Jedi Outcast (like it was in MotS).


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Last edited by Kurgan; 06-08-2004 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:58 AM   #6
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Maybe Kyle constructed himself his own orange saber, then we see him in action in MotS, then he feels he has to train under Luke in the academy and builds another blue saber as the trainings require. After all the orange saber reminds him of his fall to the Dark Side. Maybe after some trainings he still thinks he is not capable to resist the Dark Side and give up, leaving his new blue saber to Luke.


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Old 06-10-2004, 07:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan

It was made by LucasArts, and uses the same engine and characters. It is in all ways as much a part of the official storyline as the previous game. Just because it's an expansion, you reject it?
It's not the fact that it's an expansion, it just doesn't seem to fit right in the Star Wars universe. Heck, even the timeline's a bit off. I believe JK takes place approximately three years after Endor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but MotS happens about one year later, right? That would put it at four years after Endor. The problem is that Mara Jade doesn't help the Rebels until Grand Admiral Thrawn begins his campaign five years after Endor. I doubt she would be trying to become a Jedi for the New Republic while she still wants to kill Luke. Again, I might be mistaken concerning the time MotS takes place, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Another argument is that the storyline for JO doesn't even mention the events that happened during MotS. The scrolling text only mentions Jerec's defeat at the end of JK. Of course, it's probably because not as many gamers have played MotS as JK, but it's still worth noting.

Quote:
This isn't unprecedented in the EU. Read the "Tales of the Jedi" comics, which are also an official part of the Expanded Universe. We've got all sorts of weirdness happening in the "Dark Empire" comics as well.
This will probably seriously compromise my entire point, but I'll say it anyway. Concerning EU of any sort, be it games, books, etc; if I don't like it, I dismiss it. I find that it's much easier to do that than to agonize over every EU source, as they tend to contradict each other frequently.

To put it simply, if I can't get into that same "Star Wars feeling" that the movies provide, I dismiss it. I did not get into the "feeling" when I read "Dark Empire" or when I was perusing through the "Tales of the Jedi" comics or the New Jedi Order books.

This probably sounds preposterous, but it's the only way I can make sense of the EU universe. So many authors, publishers and game designers have made their "own" version of Star Wars that sometimes it's hard to remember how Lucas wanted it to be from the start. Besides, the whole thing's a work of fiction. No need to be agonizing over something that doesn't even exist.

You brought up some excellent points and arguments, Kurgan and Nemios. All of the explanations (including mine!) have their strengths and weaknesses. It all boils down to personal opinion, I guess. As long as you can come up with an explanation that works for you, that's all you really need.


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