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Old 08-03-2004, 10:32 AM   #41
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"When it comes down to it, the Unique abilities may not be used all that much, but their primary purpose is to provide uniqueness amongst the Heroes."

Well mine would be, Vader throwing his lightsaber at Luke or Palpatine Electricuting a group of rebel troopers is a lot more fun than "Leave that to Me" or "Clumsy" and it actually reflects Star Wars.

"I will not make all their powers generic as you're suggesting. Doing so will make them less unique and more like boring generic civs of the kind we see in games like RoN and EE."

None of the factions will be boring because they all have seperate art work and units.

To the overall point about powers lets look at human behavior, we as human beings learn better when we are more interested in something, you said your powers may not be used all that much, if the powers you intend to include remotely resemble the ones noted then they certainly would not be used all that much at all and would be a waste of time to implement. The Jedi/Sith/Universal powers I have included is twelve
4J 4U 4S

Jedi get the 4 for light side and the 4 universal powers, Sith get the 4 for the dark side and the 4 universal. Players will enjoy playing around with the powers and will pick them up quickly.

---Question for you people---

If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is not realistic to Star Wars or 8 force powers that are?

Last edited by Puzzlebox; 08-03-2004 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:48 AM   #42
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None of the factions will be boring because they all have seperate art work and units.
You mean like how none of the RoN factions were boring because they all had separate artwork and units?

That's way too many powers for the Jedi and Sith. That many powers will turn the game into a hero-fest like WarCraft3, particularly if you're suggesting rank-and-file Jedi and Sith will get these powers.

I challenge you to list 12 powers that we see from the movies.

If you think my unique powers aren't the best representations of the characters from the movies, I'm open to suggestion for replacements. But the unique abilities are staying so the Heroes are still interesting between civs.

---Question for you people---

If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is realistic enough and quick to use or 8 force powers that will require concentration that will make the rest of your army suffer?


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:01 AM   #43
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All seperate artwork and all seperate units.

Three words, unit behavior scripts.

You know that there were not 12 used in the movies and you wish to capitalize on this, they are realistic to Star Wars.

?
I wasn't trying to get you to change anything I'm arguing your logic.

The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:07 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Puzzlebox
You know that there were not 12 used in the movies and you wish to capitalize on this, they are realistic to Star Wars.
Not sure how it can be realistic to Star Wars if it wasn't in the movies. I thought you were a Purist like me?
Quote:
The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.
Ah good, so you agree my way is better when taken in the context of the army as a whole rather than using the individual Hero like you would in WC3.


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:24 AM   #45
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I thought jedi were going to be used as a surgical strike weapon like commandos.


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:33 AM   #46
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Lets just diagram one of the powers that wasn't in the movies,

Rage-This is a dark side power, it affects attack and attack rate by increasing them and drops defense significantly.

This makes perfect sense and sees wide use via the Sith.

The answer to your second question is most definitely not, the question you asked made it quite clear that the rest of my army was going to suffer because I had to concentrate too much on the 8 force powers.

Ask a less biased question and you will get a more objectively sound answer.

Scenario:Vader and a massive army in a large battle, well Vader can take care of himself but those missile troopers are going to shoot down my ties that are on the way... 2, or 8.

As for computer use, Unit Behavior Scripts, as for player use powers won't be able to cast that many and a lot of them are stat effects which remain for a period of time.

*Edit*

He probablyly meant about scare units power which would be used at a distance, that withstanding I wouldn't use Vader anywhere near where it could get him killed nor would most players. As well 8 would add to the strategy a player employs when using the hero, more so than one unique power would, the 8 are they themselves specific because of what they do and the situation they affect i.e. blaster deflection, defense, speed etc... There is no question which system is better.

"WarCraft III where heroes can take on entire armies"

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Old 08-03-2004, 11:38 AM   #47
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Actually rage is a star wars power from the movies Luke gave in to his anger and used his rage and attacked vader and sliced his had off remeber?

For purists you really don't know the movies that well do you?


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:52 AM   #48
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I never said Rage wasn't a justifiable power. Now all we need is 11 more justifiable powers. As a Truth Bearer you should know Purism doesn't mean extreme knowledge of the movies. A Star Wars Scholar has extreme knowledge of the movies. I just happen to be both a Star Wars Purist and a Star Wars Scholar.

Puzzlebox, what bias? The game is going to involve both individual Heroes and large scale battles, as such my scenario is a typical one and not biased in any way.


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:56 AM   #49
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That doesn't count

Force Choke
Force Lightning
Throw Saber
Force Speed
Mind Trick
etc...

You can't say that that rage had anything to do with a force power.
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:59 AM   #50
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Of course it has to do with a Force power. Why are the Emperor and Vader always telling Luke to give in to his hate?

And Throw Saber is not a Force Power. I have no Force Powers but I could throw a lightsaber.


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Old 08-03-2004, 01:22 PM   #51
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"Of course it has to do with a Force power. Why are the Emperor and Vader always telling Luke to give in to his hate?"

I don't consider rage to be a power in used in the movies. Either way we both agree it doesn't conflict with Star Wars.

"And Throw Saber is not a Force Power. I have no Force Powers but I could throw a lightsaber."

uhuh, tell me, how exactly would it be getting back into your hand.
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Old 08-03-2004, 01:27 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Puzzlebox
uhuh, tell me, how exactly would it be getting back into your hand.
Throwing a lightsaber in itself is not a Force Power. The Jedi or Sith uses telekinesis to guide the saber through the air and bring it back to their hand. So Telekinesis is a Force Power (which includes Force Push, Force Pull, lifting things like rocks, X-Wings, protocol droids, etc), but "Throw Saber" is not a Force Power.


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Old 08-03-2004, 01:35 PM   #53
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Nice try

Throw Saber is a force power in the game, in Star Wars it would involve using the force to guide the saber back into the Sith/Jedi's hand.

In the game it expends force points when done it is therefor a force power. I did not mean and obviously so that throw saber was in the movies or in the Star Wars universe a power unto itself as force lightning is.

I would bet you just made a slight oversight and I nailed you.

"Puzzlebox, what bias? The game is going to involve both individual Heroes and large scale battles, as such my scenario is a typical one and not biased in any way."

Your question was clearly biased and I bet if you asked anyone here they would agree with me.

Last edited by Puzzlebox; 08-03-2004 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:46 PM   #54
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Okay I suppose from a gameplay point of view, Throw Saber is an ability the Jedi/Sith can use.

I maintain my question wasn't biased. How are you expecting the game to be played if you think my example of using both Vader and a huge army at the same time is biased?


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Old 08-03-2004, 03:50 PM   #55
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You wouldn't need the force to get a lightsabre to come back just a handheald magnets you know they had pretty strong magnets from how they rescued artoo from the dune sea.


I AM the prophet of the truth the protector of Star Wars Truism

Star Wars Truism by it's very nature is eternal and will outlive Star Wars Purism

Everything I say is a lie for the Truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it

Do you have any last words?

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Old 08-03-2004, 09:22 PM   #56
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Vostocs comment was that he didn't have force powers but he could throw a saber.

Either the point escaped you DK or you were engaging in a little self serving intellectualism. I hold that it was the latter and as such don't mind, or so you might expect.

Here Vostoc

Here was my Question-
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is not realistic to Star Wars or power or 8 force powers that are?"

Here is an unbiased version of my Question-
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique or power or 8 force powers?"

Your Question-
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is realistic enough and quick to use or 8 force powers that will require concentration that will make the rest of your army suffer?"

Unbiased Version
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power or 8 force powers.

Your original question was biased because you formed it in a manner that automatically made one scenario more optimal than the other and unduly so, you alleged that mine would require a significant amount of concentration and thus would not be able to be utilized quickly, irreguardless you may just be intending to use heroes as armies after all and not surgically, if that is so it is a really stupid move, in my game Vader would not last long at all against an army.

Last edited by Puzzlebox; 08-03-2004 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:02 PM   #57
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Oh, I see, in that sense yes it is biased. I thought you were meaning the situation I had described (namely using Vader alongside an army) was biased.

I understand now. So is your answer to the unbiased version of my question still what is was before? Namely:
Quote:
The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:15 PM   #58
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No my answer then would be no.
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:24 PM   #59
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So you'd prefer to micro-manage your Force Powers at the same time as organising your army? Especially if you have multiple Jedi, each with eight powers, I just don't see how this is possible.

I guess what I'm trying to determine is how exactly are you intending Jedi to be used in your game? If they're meant as a force in their own right, that don't need the co-operation of the rest of the army, then giving them a 8 Force Powers borders on manageable. Of course to do this their survivability would have to be pretty much the same as WarCraft3's Heroes, which I wanted to avoid because the game is so focused on the Heroes and leaves the rest of the units in the background.

But if you're expected to use both Jedi and an Army at the same time in a combined offensive, much like the existing SWGB, I just don't see how it can work.


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Old 08-03-2004, 11:43 PM   #60
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"So you'd prefer to micro-manage your Force Powers at the same time as organising your army? Especially if you have multiple Jedi, each with eight powers, I just don't see how this is possible."

Not particularly, by default they will use their powers on their own, when and which powers would be used will be dealt with via unit behavior scripts.

In the case of heroes I would enjoy micromanaging the force powers, if I didn't have the luxury of focusing on the unit I would just set it back to default stance/lets not get this much into minutia via buttons etc...

I intend them to be used as surgical units, for example if an opposing player is expanding and has just started building up another base near a resource they can rush in and hack everything to pieces and be gone before the opposing players heavy units arrive.

Or if another player is moving a group of units to a fight, the Jedi/Sith could deal with them before they got to the battle.

A little thought will get you other possibilities I won't mention. Force points will exhaust fast and there shouldn't be more than twenty Jedi or Sith employed by a player an average game, and thats stretching it.

"But if you're expected to use both Jedi and an Army at the same time in a combined offensive, much like the existing SWGB, I just don't see how it can work."

I keep referring to unit behavior scripts, you know when a trooper starts shooting and you didn't tell him too.

Having a Jedi or Sith use his powers freely with be handled like a stance, by default they do this, but you can turn that off and play around with them if you so choose.

Last edited by Puzzlebox; 08-03-2004 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 08-04-2004, 01:13 AM   #61
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Pussle Box- Seems like an easy way out to just hand the role over to the computer to deal out the powers. If your Jedi have that much power I'm sure there micro would be enormous with people using hot keys to dispense all 8 powers in a matter of 5 seconds.


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Old 08-04-2004, 01:43 AM   #62
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?? what are you talking about
no no no

Jedi Padawan

Hit Points-120
Attack-15
Defense-4
Armor-0
Evade(Not Shown)-10%
Shield Hit Points(Not Shown;because it doesn't have one)-0
Deflect(Not Shown)-50%
Speed(Not Shown)-Can't
Bound Speed(Not Shown)-Can't
Attack Rate(Not Shown)-1.9 Secs
Rate of Fire(Not Shown because it isn't a ranged unit)-0.0 secs
Accuracy(Not Shown)-0%
Garrison Capacity-(Not Shown because it doesn't have one)-0
Range(Not Shown because it isn't a ranged unit)-0
Area Effect(Not Shown)-0
Force Points-50
Special Action Points(Not Shown because it doesn't have any)-0
Meditation points-56
Jedi Knight-44
-------------------------
Force Push-30
Force Speed-40
X-40
X-35

Regeneration Time Hit Points(Not Shown)-1=15 secs
Regeneration Time Force Points(Not Shown)-1=25 secs

While Meditating-Hit Points(Not Shown)-1=8 secs
While Meditating-Force Points(Not Shown)-1=10 secs
Meditation Point Rate(Not Shown)-1=12 secs
----------------------------------------------------------------
*Lets clear this up*

Behavior Scripts. ex. health is below 30 and unit has more than 40 force points, it will use heal.

Remember unarmed units running in SWGB...

Average game will have round 15 Jedi or Sith per player provided the given player wants them.
Stance A-Unit will use force powers only when necessary.
Stance B-Unit will use force powers at will against enemies.
Stance C-Unit will use defensive force powers at will.
Stance D-Unit will not use force powers.

If you select ten Jedi you will see both these stances and the powers, if you want them to stupidly or not so stupidly use all of their powers on one target then you can do so, if you want them all to use Discipline so their defenses are better before a battle, do so.

If in said situation you want them to attack an army head on and wield their powers set them to aggressive and select stance B, then order them to the area.(In my game they are able to go to an area while attacking enemy units on the way, a sadly missing feature with the Age of Kings engine) Their unit scripts will have them attacking groups of units with force lightning(Sith) or mind trick and bounty hunters and such with force push or force choke as is the case for the Sith etc...

In about fifteen seconds you be upset with yourself for wasting all of your Jedi.

If you went with Stance A they would have healed themselves when their hit points were low enough and recovered enough health to last another ten or twenty seconds, however if you wanted them to go in and destroy the group of repeaters you could use force speed and try to run in and nail them and retreat before you lose them all.

They are surgical units first and foremost, but when deployed with an army they can easily make the difference.

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Old 08-04-2004, 05:37 AM   #63
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I can tell you precisely whu because Lasers are included in a different section Under Technology and DeAgonstini Is notoriusly unreliable and i have yet to receive a new issue for 5 months despite the fact that they owe me a credit


I AM the prophet of the truth the protector of Star Wars Truism

Star Wars Truism by it's very nature is eternal and will outlive Star Wars Purism

Everything I say is a lie for the Truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it

Do you have any last words?

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Old 08-04-2004, 06:02 AM   #64
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Are you feeling well?
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:05 AM   #65
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Just angry AT those SWINDLERS DeAgonstini


I AM the prophet of the truth the protector of Star Wars Truism

Star Wars Truism by it's very nature is eternal and will outlive Star Wars Purism

Everything I say is a lie for the Truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it

Do you have any last words?

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Old 08-04-2004, 06:07 AM   #66
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You're insane.
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:08 AM   #67
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Now Now Now pezzy you wouldn't want to get yourself in trouble now would you.

I thought that much was clear based on who my avatar was




THE GREAT Joruus C'Baoth Jedi Master Supreme


I AM the prophet of the truth the protector of Star Wars Truism

Star Wars Truism by it's very nature is eternal and will outlive Star Wars Purism

Everything I say is a lie for the Truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it

Do you have any last words?

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Old 08-04-2004, 06:12 AM   #68
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I thought your avatar was one of those see what you want pictures, I saw an aquatic looking thing with an odd gun.
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:14 AM   #69
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Now i wonder where oh where is that ignore list pannel there's a certain bantha cleaner i don't want to hear any more. Blasphemous infidel


I AM the prophet of the truth the protector of Star Wars Truism

Star Wars Truism by it's very nature is eternal and will outlive Star Wars Purism

Everything I say is a lie for the Truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it

Do you have any last words?

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