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Old 05-21-2005, 11:56 PM   #1
Kurgan
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Post I saw it tonight (no more need for spoiler goggles for me!)

ROTS THOUGHTS (heh)

This'll seem a bit disorganized and random, but I'm tired, so here's my self-introduction to this sub-forum!

---------------------

Saw it May 21st (tonight), 3 days after release, but against my better judgement (was going to wait a bit longer). After all this is when the "normal (less geekified) people" go see it. Anyway...

I showed up about 6:12pm because the stupid theater chain (basically the only one in the Quad City area showing new flicks) screwed up their phone line, so it would disconnect on you if you tried to check show schedules OR order tickets (not that I order tickets but I do like to know when a movie starts so I can pick a good time to show up and not wait forever). As luck would have it I was just in time for the 6:30 showing.

9 bucks for a ticket?? You've got to be kidding!!

Good thing I didn't buy any concessions, heh.

Big crowd, only one guy with a jedi outfit on and darth vader voice changer strapped to the back of his head, and flashing blue toy lightsaber (strobe effect) sitting in front.

Couple of half-hearted catcalls to his back (stadium seating in this theater I was in) while we sat waiting (which he didn't seem to notice). "Did you get that on ebay?" "You can get 'em at Toys 'R' Us." (other guy to the first heckler)


Went right in, perfect timing. Felt silly going through this huge empty queue by myself, tailing the crowd that had surged ahead moments before.

Okay trailers, too many of 'em... none of the movies looked that interesting except maybe Fantastic Four. Disappointed I didn't see Narnia trailer on the big screen oh well.



Actually stayed for the entire credits sequence (something I've almost never done for theatrical movies). I figured I'd get my money's worth (9 bucks!!!!) plus I'd miss the mass exodus out.

Thanks for the suggestion Mr. Ebert! Interesting to learn there there WERE location shootings. I originally thought the film was going to be all done on-set with computers with only the last "Tatooine scene" (filmed during Episode II production) in Tunisia. Instead there were tons of locations, so that was interesting.

Java the Hut, heh.

The music was okay, seemed to mostly be remixed bits from AOTC and TPM with very little from the OT thrown in, not very memorable, and very subdued throught most of it.

Initial impressions:

Good, but overhyped. This wasn't the Second Coming of Star Wars nor did it blow me away or anything. It was as mesmerizing as any other good action fantasy movie I've been to. I almost got the "multiple endings" vibe at the end like I did for Return of the King but it wasn't nearly that bad, and nobody started to leave and whined, thank goodness.

I did rank it higher than AOTC (less boring bits or cringeworthy scenes) but ROTJ still kicks its a$$ in terms of direction of the action for the most part, IMHO. Impressive CGI throughout except for the various shots of Threepio. Far off shots he looked too plastic and golden, compared to zooming in on him and him almost being silver in color and too shiny by comparison. Those moments took me out of it, but otherwise the movies was very impressive.

Yoda looked good most of the time (even better than AOTC at times), but most of his closeups he looked a little too, I don't know how to describe it, I don't want to say "fakey" but he just didn't look like a real living being, but rather a big texture map. Without knowing how it was all done, I'd almost swear they had a kid jumping around with the texture maps of the green head and stuff added (the clothes he was wearing looked so REAL).

Audience reactions were mixed. You could hear tongue-in-cheek comments at the start. There was some clapping when the Star Wars Logo first appeared. People said stuff like "now be quiet, the last star Wars everybody!" as the logo was going on. The opening crawl was delightfully corny & pulp (War! <---- WW2 reference?).

spoilers:
When Anakin confronts the Younglings some kid (teen girl?) up and behind me said "Don't you do it. Re-tard!" like she was mad at Anakin. hehe



The audience chuckled a bit after Palpatine's "transformation" and his voice was cracking and croaking all over the place (he had to somehow make that transition from quiet old man to cackling madman). For once I agreed with the audience laughing inappropriately like that at a movie I'm watching. From that point on whenever Palpatine would start speaking whole clusters of people would start clearing their throats and coughing on purpose. Frog in your throat Palpy?

When Yoda easily pwned the two "Imperial Guards" (or whatever they are being called at this stage) the audience cheered and clapped. They also applauded when he smacked down the Clones trying to sneak up on him earlier.

R2D2 got some laughs and applause when he did the burning oil trick on the Super Battledroids (makes 'em a bit wimpy though I'd say).

The droid threat was almost totally wiped out in this movie I felt. The fighter droids have voices now (in space? who would hear them?). More an annoyance than anything (like those droids that stick to fighters and eat away at them like little gremlins... looks like something from a video game, wouldn't it be more tactical for them to just collectively explode on the surface or something, go directly for the cockpit and the pilot? Oh well).

Obi-Wan seemed really weak until later in the film, with Anakin taking all the credit. I kept thinking "why doesn't he use the Force here" etc. Dramatic needs of the film I guess. When the Jedi aren't on the ground running around they seem to act more like normal people... skilled pilots and such but not Jedi with super powers. Just an observation, maybe I've been reading too many EU stories.

When Yoda climbed on the shoulders of Chewbacca (?) people went "awwwww."

Commando Cody? Oops, I mean CommandER Cody. Thanks MST3K for reminding me of that serial character, but I missed his nipple activated Jetpack! Ah well... maybe in the deleted scenes.

Mind wipe for Threepio? Thanks for throwing us nitpickers a bone George!

General Grevious was pretty laughable as a villian, I'm glad all the wanking from Clone Wars Season 2 wasn't present here. Oh wow, he can twirl lightsabers super fast, but otherwise he's just a coughing mostly droid coward, not much of a threat to a skilled Jedi, just tricky to actually put down for good. Finally a decent win for Benny boy!


The Jedi seem pretty dumb when it comes to the Clones murdering them, but I can chalk that up to diminished powers (the Shroud of the Dark Side) and surprise. Still, I would have liked to see more Clones get killed in the instances where they just pointed their guns at a Jedi and started shooting. I guess they really are just great shots, like Jango! It makes sense that Yoda escapes, because he senses the other Jedi dying ahead of time and he's supposed to be one of the most powerful Jedi Masters at the time.

Character shields, but not too much of a stretch.

During the battle between Yoda and Palpatine I noted that Yoda appears to be blocking (or rather absorbing) lightning the whole time, he doesn't throw any back like he did in AOTC.


Was that my imagination or did I see a non-Jango clone unmasked in one of those early "briefing" scenes?

Why was it PG-13? Just because of the sheer amount of bloodless deaths? Because of Anakin's burning flesh at the end? Seemed pretty low end for most PG-13 flicks. No gushing blood, no nipples or butts, no cursing, no drug use. Some scary stuff for kids, but not a whole lot more than was in say, AOTC (other than the burning flesh).

- End spoilers

I am SO glad I avoided spoilers as much as I could before seeing this. A lot of scenes I knew hints about from accidental spoilers etc, but many details and things were complete surprises. Many things I thought would happen didn't and many things I didn't expect, did. This was very nice. Now I can "turn the Matrix back on" without worry of ruining anything.

During the film I noticed right away that it seemed like the volume level was lower than usual. I remember all the Star Wars m movies I'd seen in theaters before seemed really LOUD and in your face with the surround sound (the special editions and the prequels alike). This time I had to strain to hear dialouge sometimes and took me a second or two to realize what a character was mumbling. I don't think my hearing is going bad, so I'm chalking it up to the theater setup. The movie just needed to be louder. The battles felt more detached when it should have felt like you were "right there." Ironic, when there's no sound in space, but even the dramatic music was barely audible and didn't have the "oomph" it should have. Again, I think this was a result of the setup, so other viewings might not have this weakness. I don't care how many people say Lucas is a "visual filmmaker" the sound MAKES these movies come alive.

I was sitting slightly above where I normally do when watching a movie (I try to arrive early and position myself exactly in the middle of the theater) but I was only 2 or 3 rows behind, so I don't think it could be that.

So, would I see it again (on a much less crowded day, with much cheaper tickets and hopefully louder speakers) sure. It was a fun popcorn action flick and the effects were almost perfect.


Post script Questions (spoilers): Only a few of things that were confusing to me (this is probably explained in some EU tie-in I'm guessing).

1) Why does Palpy turn ugly and old? It almost looked like his lightning was rebounding off of Mace Windu and hitting him. But since when does Lightning cause a person to age? What's the explanation for this? I assumed from seeing the trailer and the teaser trailer that Palpatine was merely "disguised" like Dorian Gray using the Dark Side and he "always" looked like a crone. Was the fact that he was struggling with Windu enough to disrupt his concentration for the disguise? Why didn't he re-erect it later when talking to the Senate? Palpy didn't look like he was fighting that hard, and I thought maybe he was holding back to let Anakin intervene as part of his Master Plan, so it doesn't seem like he'd be "burning himself out" with exertion.. maybe I'm wrong.

2) Sith eyes. Sith eyes come and go. I am not assuming this is a "Dune" type of gaffe like with the Fremen eyes being accidentally left out of scenes. Do Sith only possess them at certain times like extreme agitation? Maul always had 'em, Palpatine sometimes has 'em, Anakin has 'em twice, and Dooku never has 'em.

3) Since when do the Neimoidians trust Darth Sideous again? I thought that they were "betrayed" by him and sought Dooku's help (AOTC)? Or was this an elaborate lie by Dooku (in his unusually candid speech to Obi-Wan). The point of Dooku's "deception" was that he WAS TELLING THE TRUTH (but leaving out important facts like that the Sith Lord was his Master, and the war was started intentionally by Sideous/Palpatine as a ploy to gain power). Suddenly the Neimodians act like this is just a routine call from Lord Sideous and they trust him implicitly. Mind Trick?

Any help there?


Now I plan to watch Season 3 of Clone Wars, play through Republic Commando SP, read the novelization, etc etc.

So much to do, so little freetime! Oh well, thanks George, see ya... So far the critics (www.rottentomatoes.com)and fans (www.imdb.com) love this film, by all counts, so there's another pile of money for the bin, and this time I feel like he's earned it.


Some fun links that will either anger or amuse you guys (or maybe both) about the movie, with spoilers of course:

CAPAlert tells you the reasons why this movie may be bad for your kids:

http://www.capalert.com/capreports/s...episodeiii.htm

Mr. Cranky talks about what a stupid movie it was:

http://mrcranky.com/movies/starwarse...ofthesith.html

ChefElf nitpicks the teaser trailer. He's overdue for nitpicking the film, but give him time!

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep3_teaser.php

Phil Plait (nice guy, I heard him speak in Boulder a couple of years ago) nitpicks the science of the movie:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/movi...wars_sith.html


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Old 05-22-2005, 12:34 AM   #2
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It seems like you made a lot of effort to critisise the movie there Kurgz...


1. Also, I think what GL was trying to show us was that Palpy is older than he actuallys looks and that he couldn't hold his disguise, or he purposely let it go to make Anakin think he was dying... Remember, Palpy acted like a feeble old man for a lot of that scene to get Anakin to come to his rescue, which he did. Palpy could've easily taken Mace IMO.


2. Dooku never truely gave himself to the darkside, IMO anywayz, but Maul and Anakin did. Dooku was more cunning than that.

3, I think it was the fact that they had nowhere else to turn to anymore. Sidious was their only hope for survival even if they were betrayed by him in the past.

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Old 05-22-2005, 12:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynk Former
It seems like you made a lot of effort to critisise the movie there Kurgz...
Not at all, those were my thoughts driving home from the movie, my initial impressions, really.

Are you saying that this is such a great movie that I had to TRY REALLY HARD to make up something bad to say about it? If so, I think you misunderstood me.


Quote:
1. Also, I think what GL was trying to show us was that Palpy is older than he actuallys looks and that he couldn't hold his disguise, or he purposely let it go to make Anakin think he was dying... Remember, Palpy acted like a feeble old man for a lot of that scene to get Anakin to come to his rescue, which he did. Palpy could've easily taken Mace IMO.
That's kind of what I was thinking, but I kept expecting him to "resume the disguise" later in the movie, but he never did. Now we're left with the impression that he stays this way for the next 25 years or so until we finally see him again in ESB. He even has to give an explanation to the Senate "I was injured and deformed" (along those lines anyway).

If it were designed to create sympathy for him ('oh the poor man, look at what those Jedi did to him!') why the need for the disguise decades later when his power is secure and he's alone with his trusted aides?

[ Edit: I mean if the crone was the disguise, and the "elder man" was his normal look. I'm thinking the opposite here. ]

I tend towards the theory that he's always looked this way, either because he was a deformed guy who gave himself "good looks" for political gain, or because his use of the Dark Side of the force twisted his appearence (this is very similar to the EU explanation we've had for years as to his wizened appearance, though they he actually wore out several bodies and had to resort to shifting his soul into clones in order to continue his conscious existence). I think Lucas's theme here is that Palpatine is an evil Demon, somebody who's lost his humanity through greed and malice consorting with evil powers, but I wonder the technical explanation (if one exists).


I'll note also that when he appears in the Sideous hood in the other prequels his face (what we can see of it) looks normal. No major wrinkles, no rotten teeth.

Quote:
1. Dooku never truely gave himself to the darkside, IMO anywayz, but Maul and Anakin did. Dooku was more cunning than that.
Interesting. It does appear that he is surprised to be betrayed by Palpatine. He definately has the Dark Side, but if there's some kind of "degree" of "giving oneself" I guess that might be a plausible theory.

Quote:
3, I think it was the fact that they had nowhere else to turn to anymore. Sidious was their only hope for survival even if they were betrayed by him in the past.
One wonders the extent of the betrayal or what happened. Dooku just mentions "was betrayed by this Darth Sideous 10 years ago." Maybe it was just a "simple misunderstanding" ?

I got the impression that the Viceroy was so desperate that he clung to Dooku. Now that Dooku is dead, he went back to Sideous? Hmm...


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Old 05-22-2005, 01:02 AM   #4
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Question

More things... Was it my imagination or were the Trailers a bit wrong in one detail?

I remember them showing the newly "reborn" Vader with his hands manacled so they were bent at the elbow and angled near his shoulders (so you could see them in frame with his head).

In the actual film they are closer to his sides. I guess they changed that in post production? I think it looks better now anyway, as Hayden (in the suit) seems to have really small hands compared to David Prowse and it looks out of proportion compared to what we're used to from the classic trilogy.

Curtis Saxton speculates on the construction of the large object seen at the end of the movie (note: it appears he's working with incomplete information at the time of this writing, but I'm sure he'll revise it once he's gotten pics of the actual movie to use):

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/ruction.html#cgw

At least if he's right it wouldn't seem as silly as the first Death Star taking 20 years to build, but the second one that was massively larger being built in 6-9 months.


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Old 05-22-2005, 01:26 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Not at all, those were my thoughts driving home from the movie, my initial impressions, really.

Are you saying that this is such a great movie that I had to TRY REALLY HARD to make up something bad to say about it? If so, I think you misunderstood me.
No, no. It's just that no one has bothered to really write up something like this. There have been comments about how this and that weren't all that great, but then again, that kind of thing occurs in every Star Wars movie, even the OT.


Also, you would have to assume that a lot of prototypes were made and tests were done to make sure that the final product actually worked. I mean, imagine if the Death Star was orbitting Alderaan and the order to fire was given but nothing happened... lol

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Old 05-22-2005, 01:31 AM   #6
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Wink Don't take this the wrong way, heh

So I'm the first? I went right to the "new thread" thing, I didn't bother to first scan through to the forum to make sure nobody else had "reviewed" and talked about the movie.

If nitpicking offends you, don't read I guess.

I figure I can talk about what I liked and didn't like (or was confused about) without having to apologize for thinking or having an opinion even when watching a fantasy entertainment movie. Right?

I'm too tired to search (if they even still exist) but I believe I did the same thing for each of the new movies that have come out and I even did something for the 2004 DVD editions. So it's not like I suddenly decided I wanted to rant against this movie (and I don't think I'm ranting against it per se either).


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Old 05-22-2005, 01:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
If nitpicking offends you, don't read I guess.
XP It's not that, I'm just reminding you that all of his movies have the same kind of faults in them and highlighting that the OT has those faults too.


I added to my earlier post btw, about the Death Star.

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Old 05-22-2005, 01:42 AM   #8
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Re: I saw it tonight (no more need for spoiler goggles for me!)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
1) Why does Palpy turn ugly and old? It almost looked like his lightning was rebounding off of Mace Windu and hitting him. But since when does Lightning cause a person to age? What's the explanation for this? I assumed from seeing the trailer and the teaser trailer that Palpatine was merely "disguised" like Dorian Gray using the Dark Side and he "always" looked like a crone. Was the fact that he was struggling with Windu enough to disrupt his concentration for the disguise? Why didn't he re-erect it later when talking to the Senate? Palpy didn't look like he was fighting that hard, and I thought maybe he was holding back to let Anakin intervene as part of his Master Plan, so it doesn't seem like he'd be "burning himself out" with exertion.. maybe I'm wrong.
I would think there would be no need to "reactivate" the disquise, and using his true form in the Senate went a long way in convincing them of the Jedi's treachery. I'm sure it must be explained in the novel...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
3) Since when do the Neimoidians trust Darth Sideous again? I thought that they were "betrayed" by him and sought Dooku's help (AOTC)? Or was this an elaborate lie by Dooku (in his unusually candid speech to Obi-Wan). The point of Dooku's "deception" was that he WAS TELLING THE TRUTH (but leaving out important facts like that the Sith Lord was his Master, and the war was started intentionally by Sideous/Palpatine as a ploy to gain power). Suddenly the Neimodians act like this is just a routine call from Lord Sideous and they trust him implicitly. Mind Trick?
IIRC they originally felt betrayed, but Dooku brought them back into the fold. Even though they were arrested/captured at the end of TPM, Sidious had them freed and reinstated. And on the endoursment of Dooku they again followed Sidious.

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Old 05-22-2005, 01:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynk Former
XP It's not that, I'm just reminding you that all of his movies have the same kind of faults in them and highlighting that the OT has those faults too.


I added to my earlier post btw, about the Death Star.
I still don't rank them all the same. Notice I didn't harp on the usual things that people whine about with regards to these movies ie: "wooden acting," "stilted dialouge," "too much CGI."

The prequels also have to deal with backwards continuity, so that's not a problem for the OT. It's a special one for prequels to have to fit in with the newer movies.


Yes I assume they must have tested the heck out of the Death Star, but that's another thing we have to think about "off screen" or else hope the EU explains. We're just left with the impression "hey guys we started building the Death Star!" and then suddenly it's finished 20 years later. There are logical explanations, but I'm fearing that the EU may concoct a poorer explanation and thus it becomes canon. I guess it's hard to explain why that should bother a person at all, but there you go...

It might have been better if they just had a throw away line like "we've begun constructing technologies for a super weapon recovered from the Seperatists" or something of that nature. The scene was very cool, I'm just not sure it was the best way to portray it, that's all.

As to nitpicking in general, yes it's possible to nitpick ANY movie, so what. That doesn't mean that we should say "no Episode III nitpicking" or that my nitpicking implies that it can't be done to any other movies, including the OT. I HAVE done nitpicking of the other movies, so this shouldn't be surprising or offensive. Each of the SW films has its own quirks, some more than others. None of the quirks in ROTS "ruined it" for me, I enjoyed the movie very much I believe I said earlier, and I consider it the best of the prequels... that's my opinion right now.

Hope that made sense.

I'm getting too tired to post anymore, I'll have to resume this tomorrow... thanks for your comments so quickly guys!


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Old 05-22-2005, 05:23 AM   #10
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1. As has been mentioned, I think the transformation of Palpatine was entirely intentional on his part to both further Anakin's desire to help him (by looking more helpless) and to cast the Jedi in a negative light to the Senate (and probably others as well). Its possible that one or the other face is just a disguise, but I think it is also possible that he just did something to himself to create the face. Then he would have no reason to do something to bring back the other face.

2. I'm not really sure about the whole "sith eyes" thing either. But on the matter of Dooku, I thought his character was really interesting. He really did seem to feel regret for the things he did, and I believed there was still good in him. Of course, it would achieve some of his ends to pretend this, so it is hard to really get through to his true character. I was really hoping that this movie would give us more depth and insight, but instead they just Darth Mauled them. Not that I can blame them, they had a lot of plot to cover in two and a half hours, and Dooku was not important enough to use up that much of it. That's why, as I've said in a few other threads (some I'm sure are sick of hearing it from me), this could have made two really great movies, instead of one very good movie.

3. I don't think the Neimoidians ever really really realized they had been betrayed. I think Dooku told this to Obi-Wan to make his story more believeable (as well as to keep the audience guessing about Dooku's true intentions). If you think about it from the perspective of the Trade Federation, they had no way of knowing they were betrayed. As they see it, the Queen's moves were unanticipated, and they managed to get the drop on all of them. They have no way of connecting it back to Sidious.


Yeah, you'd think the Emperor had come back to life or something.
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Old 05-22-2005, 08:43 AM   #11
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O.o You seem to be taking this kinda personally Kurgan, at least that what it seems. I'm just saying my point of view, I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. Jeebus.

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Old 05-22-2005, 09:06 AM   #12
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Oh, and I forgot to say, on the matter of the Death Star. If you notice the Death Star we see at the end does not look much more or less complete then the Death Star we see in ROTJ. It is possible that there is a lot more work left to be done on the DS II. Most likely the only things completed are a part of the structure itself, and the superlaser. It may still lack engines, it seems to lack all the surface guns (there were a lot of these, and powering them all probably required a lot other stuff to be on the interior), we know it lacks sheilds, it might not have many hangar bays (we know that they land a couple shuttles in there, but we never see it deploy its own TIEs), it probably doesnt have any tractor beams, etc. So to reach full completion, we really can't say how long it took (or would take, for that matter) to the build the DS II, and it seems that both reach approximately the same point in about the same time (most likely the DS II was started right after the destruction of the first one). Granted, the first one probably wasn't fully armed and operational, but they probably also didn't double their efforts, or find new ways to be motivated (plus you can't expect them to get it as fast on the first try).


Yeah, you'd think the Emperor had come back to life or something.
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:05 AM   #13
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Saw it last night and to me it was very different then the other movies...Padmé dies,mace dies,ki-a-mundi dies, plo kloon dies.....It's weird how they die and stuff...


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Old 05-22-2005, 12:51 PM   #14
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Wink oh don't worry Lynk

Quote:
Originally posted by Lynk Former
O.o You seem to be taking this kinda personally Kurgan, at least that what it seems. I'm just saying my point of view, I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. Jeebus.
So we'll just agree to disagree and not turn this into a chatroom debate about how we're not disagreeing.


I'm not taking it personally, no. I just know what I think about a movie I've seen. I was "prepared" to defend my view against self-appointed defenders of a popular movie against all criticism. Trust me, I've seen the type. On some other boards if you say anything even seemingly negative about this movie people jump all over you attacking you, etc. They do the same thing with any less than positive review. I take honest critisms in stride, but that doesn't mean I keep silent in the face of them.

So you can't blame me for replying rather than just ignoring your replies. I didn't want to leave the impression that I was "corrected." I mean, we're discussing opinions here, right?

Just because I reply doesn't mean I'm being over-sensitive, it just means we're having a discussion.

I don't think the OT and the PT are identical, and I gave my personal ranking of how I personally like the films. I feel I can judge each film on its own merits, but since this is a series, I can also judge them by how well they fit into their respective trilogies and into one coherent story (if such a thing is possible.. anyway it's what Lucas intended).

I didn't give all my reasons for such a ranking, only a few of them, and they were subjective. Nobody has to agree with me at all, but there you go.


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Old 05-22-2005, 01:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
[B]Oh, and I forgot to say, on the matter of the Death Star. If you notice the Death Star we see at the end does not look much more or less complete then the Death Star we see in ROTJ.
I disagree. Unless my mind was playing tricks on me (only saw the movie yesterday for the first time but I think it's still fresh in my mind), the "Deathstar" we see is a skeletal framework. The ROTJ DS 2 looks more like a regular deathstar with a chunk taken out of the lower quadrant (and some other missing pieces too, but you get the idea, it looks much more "solid"). It's been speculated by some that this is just a prototype. We don't know how big it is.

In the "official" literature the DS 1 is 120 km in diamater and the unfinished DS 2 is 160 km. Estimates taken by fans based on the films themselves (and behind the scenes intents from the model builders) come up with estimates closer to 160 km for the first one and 900 km for the second. We have no real idea how big this "prototype" (Or whatever it was) seen in ROTS is.

Quote:
It is possible that there is a lot more work left to be done on the DS II. Most likely the only things completed are a part of the structure itself, and the superlaser. It may still lack engines, it seems to lack all the surface guns (there were a lot of these, and powering them all probably required a lot other stuff to be on the interior), we know it lacks sheilds, it might not have many hangar bays (we know that they land a couple shuttles in there, but we never see it deploy its own TIEs), it probably doesnt have any tractor beams, etc. So to reach full completion, we really can't say how long it took (or would take, for that matter) to the build the DS II, and it seems that both reach approximately the same point in about the same time (most likely the DS II was started right after the destruction of the first one).
It's pretty vague, because if they were both started at the same time, why don't we see both of them? Oh, maybe one is on the other side of the galaxy or something, sure. If we go with the smaller official estimates, then they are close in size and would be finished more or less within a short time of each other. However if we go with the more realistic figures, then the DS2 would have taken significantly longer to build. How could they construct something almost 6 times bigger in 1/40th the time?

Granted, the first one probably wasn't fully armed and operational, but they probably also didn't double their efforts, or find new ways to be motivated (plus you can't expect them to get it as fast on the first try). [/quote]

Wasn't the DS1 fully operational by the time of the battle of Yavin? The surface was complete, the guns worked, it had its shield, tractor beams, hyperdrive, everything it needed. What was left? The billions of coffee machines?

The quote about the DS2 being fully operational is questionable. Palpy says it is, so it could be false data that was sent as a trap to the Rebels, but it clearly isn't fully built yet. Then again it was probably designed that way... to LOOK unfinished when it fact it really was. Anything else was just cosmetic.

It'd be nice to see if any of this is explained in the novelisation, etc, but I haven't had time to pour over those yet, maybe somebody else knows.

Now, a shot from the COMIC BOOK of ROTS (posted on the Star Wars Technical Commentaries site) shows a pic of the "unfinished Great Weapon" that looks much more like the ROTJ DS 2, but it looks very different in the actual film.


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Old 05-22-2005, 02:05 PM   #16
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Build a lego Star Destroyer, it takes you hours upon hours, possibly even days. Build it a second time, it takes you about an hour tops because you've already built it before.

And for all we know the senate still having a bit of power could have slowed down construction of this weapon. Questions being asked as to why this needs to be built, matters of budget, etc.

It isn't until ANH and the Death Star in it's final finishings get done that we hear the last remains of the Old Republic are gone.


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Old 05-22-2005, 02:29 PM   #17
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I suspect the biggest obstical to the Death Star project was the senate and all the political issues. With the senate controlled/removed from the picture, things could move much more quickly.

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Old 05-22-2005, 08:05 PM   #18
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I think when he says "fully armed and operational" he just means the superlaser. Obviously it is not completed in all its function, as we know it doesnt have sheilds. Also, the Death Star we saw in ROTS had most likely been worked on for 2 or 3 years, whereas the one we see in ROTJ has most likely been worked on for 4 years. So they are more experienced building it, are rushing to meet a strict deadline, and have been working longer. Yet the only bit more complete it is, is that it has some more exterior plating and a working superlaser.


Yeah, you'd think the Emperor had come back to life or something.
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Old 05-22-2005, 09:08 PM   #19
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Don't worry Kurgan, I'm in the same boat as you.

Everyone seems to forget that this is just nitpicking, and that we really do like the movie...

My review taken from the Swamp thread:

Wasn't quite what I hoped it'd be... but an 7.5-8/10 nonetheless.

The clone war battles were so short. They showed almost absolutely nothing of it, whereas they made a huge showing of it in EP2 on Geonosis. I expected more from the clones.

I also expected more from Grievous. He is portrayed as this huge hardass and I wanted him to have a bigger role as such. He also did lose his extra hands rather quickly, something I felt was dissappointing as it seemed like they just wanted it to get to 2 lightsabers as quickly as possible so as to ease the choreography.

Anakin's joining of the dark side is far too abrupt. What seems to be despair in his

spoiler:
attacking of Mace


and what is a good part of showing his inner torment is suddenly moved to where he becomes a Sith. Which was lame. His torment should have been shown more in this part and throughout the movie, although they did a decent job of conveying it.

The Jedi Purge was far too quick and overrated IMHO. If there was more to it, some kind of despair, something to give me some reason to feel bad (besides the younglings). I mean all we got was some clones shooting Jedi in the Temple.

Mace's death = bleh
Duel of the Fates REUSED = bleh
Kashyyk = far too short

I would have liked Order 66 to be explained more, cause they sure as hell didn't mention it anywhere else in the trilogies. Are they designed with this Order inside their mind so that at the blink of an eye they shoot down comrades mercilessly?

Action scenes were less than I expected, which is the main reason why I am lowering the grade on this. Although they were cool, most of the shots consisted of faces not really a fight imo. The Obi v Grievous fight was a letdown. The arrest of Palpy was a semi letdown only because of the other 3 Jedi that die within 2 seconds. (rest in peace Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, Agen Kolar) I only got excited when Ani and Obi started their duel, which was pretty damn good. Not Maul good, but good. Yoda v Palpy is only decent. What detracted from their fight was the lack of anything special in what they were doing. And what is with EVERY SINGLE SABER WIELDER PUTTING THE SABER OVER THEIR HEAD. Ani and Dooku did it last time, they did it this time, Palpy does it, hell, what happened to every jedi/sith having a distinct style?

Anakin is evidently very simple minded. "I'm a sith" "k i'll join you"
"the jedi are corrupt" "k" "kill them" "k"

There is no anguish, there is no despair in his execution of the Jedi Purge. It's like he's a mercenary, not some Jedi who has fallen to the dark side.

The clones are far too underused and should have had a much larger part in this movie.

Oh, and Vader's NOOOOOOO.
Now, onto the good parts.

The dialogue is much better, reducing the cringe inducing lines from EP2 to mere smirks.

The clone battles were good whenever they appeared.

Obi v Ani is great. Although there wasn't too much fancy stuff ala EP1, it was still amazing to watch. Mustafar was a cool place for a fight also.
What moved me was the exchange between Obi Wan and Anakin. It is very well delivered.

Yoda takes out the Royal Guards/ Clones

Count Dooku's death and Anakin's resulting torment. Hayden shows he really can act when he's thinking over why he's not what he should be.

So, all in all, a good movie. The bad things I listed were really just nitpicks and things I thought should have been done differently for more effect.

Yoda was much better done/acted in this movie than in EP2. He seems wiser, more troubled, and actually has emotion XD
Droids = great comical effect

and R2D2 was AWESOME.




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Old 05-22-2005, 10:34 PM   #20
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Yeah, i went to go see the movie on opening night. it was me, the major star wars geek and all my friends who liked star wars but wern't really into it.

The beginning of the movie, with the two ships weaving through the battle was awesome, i was dissapointed that most of the action was in the background and there wasn't much fighting with obi-wan and anakin. Basically, the opening scene was great, until the end. At the end of the scene in space i was kind of odded out by the fact that the vulture droids were kind of laughable. There seemed to be some kind of strange communication going on that i could really get. I didn't know starfighters were supposed to talk to each other and move their heads. Also the buzz droid thing was kind of odd. Again, instead of killing machines, we got little talkative bubbles that reminded me of the flood in Halo.

So we get to the ship and obi-wan immediatly jumps out and begins to kick some butt. But here's the question. Why do people program battle droids to say OW and AHHH after they die? Do they have feelings? Emotions? Then there was the awesome battle of obi, ani, and dooku and the weird R2-D2 scene of him trying to shut up the comlink (battle droid oil trick, not bad, but why so Super Battle Droids have bad grammer?) Then we get off the ship, boom bang wham and the like.

This then gets the nice little blah blah blah scenes that just are plain talking.

After a couple duels (Grevous, good idea, battle was laughable. A 4 armed killing machine was wiped out by a "meatbag" with a single saber riding on some lizard bird thing named Boga?) We get the awesome death of windu, and the knighting of Darth Vader. Then Order 66.

Order 66 was all about the Jedi Purge. According to Episode IV, Darth Vader helped the emporer hunt down and destroy the jedi knights. What i saw was him killing younglings while what are soon to become laughable and cannon fodder stormtroopers whoop some Jedi butt. Now i do know that Clones have no personal feelings and that they are programmed to do what the boss tells them without question so i'm not saying Order 66 was ludicrous. I just think that i saw too many jedi masters and knights get whooped all at once. Plo Koon was my favorite jedi so seeing him die was sad though.

Then commence the Obi vs. Ani and Sidious vs. Yoda duels which were cool. Then we got the births, seemed sad, but had something missing. and the twins being sent away. My question was, we see leia and Bail go back to Alderaan, we see Luke and Obi go to tatooine, we see Vader and Palpy board a star destroyer and watch the construction of the Death Star, but why don't we see Yoda going to Degobah? Dunno.

Overall, a nice movie, not the best but defiantly the best of the prequels.

8.5/10



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