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Old 08-10-2005, 11:14 AM   #41
Slider744
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well, amidala you frist point is not really a good one because you can also say some server operators will not want to activate the new FFA-DUEL-honour gametype and continue to make duel rpg honour in the normal FFAA gametype...

so this is same...

and for your last point, the new plugin server browser will enable to know if a server is FFA with alt dim activated or not.
So you see you can really select the server type you want....


But well nevermind, i think most of this debate is more a question of point of view and what people like to play and how they play...

both solutions alt dim or new gametype are nice ....
then some people may prefer one solution and other prefer another


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Old 08-10-2005, 05:07 PM   #42
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The only real solution is for every single honor clan, server admin and player to renounce their 'holier than thou' style of play. Since that is not happening and most true FFA players are gone anyway it is up to the few to find a server that fits them.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:22 PM   #43
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DruggedSith, honour-rpg style of playing exist since JK2 and even JK1 according to a friend of mine...
A lot of player like to play like that...
ANd you can't force server operators to set the rule which You like.
They bought the server and you not...


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Old 08-10-2005, 06:45 PM   #44
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Fact is, this game really turned into a social game. I think that's why the game is still active as it is. Chillin out with people created friendships, bonds, and clans. Take a look at how many true FFA servers there are to "honor" servers.... very very few true ffa servers. If it wasn't for the "honor" gameplay, those servers would be gone and those players would have moved to another game. They arn't the mindless fragfest type people. JKA would have what.... 5 "real" servers (meaning active, not always empty)?

JKA free for all is nice and all, but there are far better fragfest games...like UT2004.

My point is, this game really turned into a social game and made a lot of friendships with people. That's why so many are still around. They like to hang with their friends. You make far more friends with talking and chillin with people than shooting rockets into a crowd of people. This all has nothing to do with the game...but the people themselves. People naturally turned this into that social game...so there really isn't a solution to it.

Instead of wishing that people would magically suddenly turn all their ffa servers into true ffa, we know that something like that would never happen and decided to merge the two types of people together so a server can respect both types of people at the same time.

You can wish all you want. We know that it will never happen, so we did the next best thing...and attempted to no longer have such few true FFA servers out there compared to honor servers by allowing every server to have the potential of BOTH types of gameplay.


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Old 08-10-2005, 08:56 PM   #45
Amidala from Chop Shop
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My goodness #include, your level of denial is just shocking.

JK2 and JA didn't just "magically" turn into "social games", and the "real FFA" servers didn't just "mysteriously" become extinct. You've been around long enough to know better than that.

The whole point of this thread is that the JK2 modders and then the JA modders caused the mass transformation of FFA\deathmatch servers into chatting\dueling servers. Instead of fixing the Duel gametype to make it into what duelers wanted, they instead messed with the FFA gametype, causing the conflict between the real deathmatch players and the "honor players". Because the "honor players" had the abusive admin commands (such as those in JA+ mod) to enforce their way of playing in FFA servers, the traditional deathmatch players never had a chance. They were driven out of the game in an "ethnic cleansing" fashion. So of course now there is nothing left but the chatting "social" players in FFA servers.

Just because you and other "social" players don't care for traditional deathmatch in JK2 and JA doesn't mean lots of others didn't like it. And saying things like "You make far more friends with talking and chillin with people than shooting rockets into a crowd of people." shows a total lack of understanding of the competitive community. The competitive players play hard in servers, then socialize in forums and in irc, which are far more appropriate places to chat and socialize.

I would say that some of the people shooting rockets at each other in pug servers have as many tight friendships among themselves as any group of chatting "social" players. Fighting together and against each other in intense (virtual) combat builds a level of camraderie that the typical chatting "social" player will never experience.

The chatting "social" honor players destroyed the traditional deathmatch FFA community, but it didn't have to be that way. If the modders had changed the Duel gametype instead of FFA gametype, we could have had a situation where we had modified Duel servers full of chatting, dueling "social" players AND Free For All servers full of traditional deathmatch players. Everyone would have been happy in their separate communities, and JK2 and JA would be far far more active and alive than they are now. Look at Quake III and Counter Strike, still going strong. But we'll never have that in JK2 and JA now, thanks to flawed decisions made by Raven and the modders in JK2, and then repeated by Raven and the modders in JA. That's the whole point of my thread.

That's why this thread is called "What might have been".


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 08-10-2005 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 08-10-2005, 10:37 PM   #46
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Who said anything about me not respecting what true ffa is? *EDITED*

EDIT- Edited just for Amidala to help him not be so "confused" in a matter.


I can do both...true ffa or just social duels.

My point is...mod or not....the server owner is going to run the server how he wants. You don't need ja+ to remove someone from your server. This game turned into a social game. Not because of a mod, but because of the people. Almost all mods give server owners the ability to run their server easier...whether it's xmod, ja+, or heck...even mods like red slushie.

It's the people who turned this game into a social game. A lot of it had to do with it being "star wars" and they wanted to somewhat casually roleplay it.

Raven didn't set a duel gameplay that allowed multiple duels...so it naturally started trickling into ffa servers where you could duel regardless of who else was dueling without waiting in line.


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Old 08-10-2005, 11:24 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
Who said anything about me not respecting what true ffa is? If I hated it...why is alt dimension around?
The Alternate Dimension is around because slider came up with it. I recall him announcing it before you started working with him. Are you taking credit for coming up with the Alternate Dimension?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
My point is...mod or not....the server owner is going to run the server how he wants. You don't need ja+ to remove someone from your server. This game turned into a social game. Not because of a mod, but because of the people. Almost all mods give server owners the ability to run their server easier...whether it's xmod, ja+, or heck...even mods like red slushie.

It's the people who turned this game into a social game. A lot of it had to do with it being "star wars" and they wanted to somewhat casually roleplay it.
Again, the game didn't "just turn into" a social game. My point is the honor\chatting\socializing duelers took over the FFA gametype and drove the fraggers to CTF or out of the game completely with amempower, ampunish, amslay, amsleep, amslap, amtele, etc. that aren't part of base JK2 or JA. That's how they "turned into" "social games". Even you have said that making those commands freely available to any 13-year-old who downloaded a mod was a bad mistake (and I'm not singling out JA+, it started before JA+). It didn't have to happen that way if, again, the Duel gametype had been modified instead of the FFA gametype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
Raven didn't set a duel gameplay that allowed multiple duels...so it naturally started trickling into ffa servers where you could duel regardless of who else was dueling without waiting in line.
*sigh* Yes, I already mentioned in my opening post (did you even read it?) that Raven made the first major error by making in JK2 a Duel gametype that most duelers don't like, and then repeated that mistake in JA.

But then the JK2 modders came up with a bad fix for that problem by changing the FFA gametype just because it was unlucky enough to have the duel challenge feature, instead of fixing the Duel gametype that was the real problem. The JA modders just copied that flawed approach, with the resultant death of real FFA in both games.

Raven put a limit of a maximum of only ONE duel at a time (and even then, only if g_privateduel is 1) for a reason. They didn't want FFA deathmatch servers to be converted into Dueling servers, or else they wouldn't have put in the one duel limit. The JK2 modders (and the JA modders who copied the JK2 approach) made a major mistake by removing that limit, with fatal results for real FFA.

You keep saying "the game just turned into a social game" as if it was inevitable or accidental. It wasn't. It didn't have to happen that way.

That's why this thread is called "What might have been".

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Old 08-10-2005, 11:54 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala
Look at Quake III and Counter Strike, still going strong. But we'll never have that in JK2 and JA now, thanks to flawed decisions made by Raven and the modders in JK2, and then repeated by Raven and the modders in JA. That's the whole point of my thread.
I wouldn't call it an outright mistake but it became a glaring omission in the long run as they never delivered any more patches or content than the weak offerings we recieved. Had they paid any attention and listened to its player base.....

The honor community needs to take a hit though too. With too many servers being agressively adminned by people who should not be server administrators, armed with humiliation tools agressive non server admins shouldn't have, their inconsistent and varying rule based gameplay ruined the experiences of alot of would be longtime JKA players.

EDIT: Also, 0 regen whorage, saber only, with certain force powers limited or disabled, jetpacks, grapplehooks, amkisses, asborb+Protect, grip-flipkick spam games suck balls.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:29 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
The Alternate Dimension is around because slider came up with it. I recall him announcing it before you started working with him. Are you taking credit for coming up with the Alternate Dimension?



Again, the game didn't "just turn into" a social game. My point is the honor\chatting\socializing duelers took over the FFA gametype and drove the fraggers to CTF or out of the game completely with amempower, ampunish, amslay, amsleep, amslap, amtele, etc. that aren't part of base JK2 or JA. That's how they "turned into" "social games". Even you have said that making those commands freely available to any 13-year-old who downloaded a mod was a bad mistake (and I'm not singling out JA+, it started before JA+). It didn't have to happen that way if, again, the Duel gametype had been modified instead of the FFA gametype.



*sigh* Yes, I already mentioned in my opening post (did you even read it?) that Raven made the first major error by making in JK2 a Duel gametype that most duelers don't like, and then repeated that mistake in JA.

But then the JK2 modders came up with a bad fix for that problem by changing the FFA gametype just because it was unlucky enough to have the duel challenge feature, instead of fixing the Duel gametype that was the real problem. The JA modders just copied that flawed approach, with the resultant death of real FFA in both games.

Raven put a limit of a maximum of only ONE duel at a time (and even then, only if g_privateduel is 1) for a reason. They didn't want FFA deathmatch servers to be converted into Dueling servers, or else they wouldn't have put in the one duel limit. The JK2 modders (and the JA modders who copied the JK2 approach) made a major mistake by removing that limit, with fatal results for real FFA.

You keep saying "the game just turned into a social game" as if it was inevitable or accidental. It wasn't. It didn't have to happen that way.

That's why this thread is called "What might have been".

I never said "I" developed altdim. Slider and I do a "lot" of discussion before he puts something out. If he's adding something, I want to make sure he knows what he's getting into.

I said the game turned into a social game. I never said it instantly and magically turned into it. Turned into does not mean instant. It means...turned into...whether fast or slow...it eventually turned into.


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Old 08-11-2005, 02:30 AM   #50
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
Who said anything about me not respecting what true ffa is? If I hated it...why is alt dimension around?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
I never said "I" developed altdim.
You sure implied it by suggesting that the reason that the Alternate Dimension is "around" (exists) is because you don't "hate" true FFA, when in fact your feelings about true FFA one way or the other had absolutely zero influence on slider's inspiration for the Alternate Dimension. If not, why did you even mention the Alternate Dimension?

So either you are trying to imply that you created the Alternate Dimension because of your "respect" for true FFA, or you mentioned the Alternate Dimension to prove that you don't "hate" true FFA when in fact it's being "around" has absolutely no relationship to your feelings about true FFA one way or the other, and is therefore irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
I said the game turned into a social game. I never said it instantly and magically turned into it. Turned into does not mean instant. It means...turned into...whether fast or slow...it eventually turned into.
Who said instantly? I never said instantly, and I never said you said it either. It took time, but it wasn't a passive natural evolution as you are implying, it was an active process. The game didn't "just turn into" a chatting\dueling game, it was turned into a chatting\dueling game by the actions of the chatters\duelers at the expense of the fraggers, namely
  1. Transforming Dathmatch servers into Dueling\Chatting servers by removing Raven's limit of no-more-than-one-duel-at-a-time in FFA
  2. Creating "no laming" rules and the abusive commands to brutally enforce them
  3. Creating an environment (disabled guns and Force powers) in so-called "FFA" that might be nice for dueling but is dumbed-down and yawn-inducing for true FFA

The games didn't "just turn into" a chatting\dueling game. That's like saying someone who was murdered "just turned into" a dead person.

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Old 08-11-2005, 03:49 AM   #51
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Amidala...you are taking a little common sense and twisting it just to try to make me look bad. You've already had a warning about this in these forums.

Slider and I talk about issues before he adds them. Common sense: If I absolutely hated the features, why would I be with ja+? That is what I am saying.

"Who said anything about me not respecting what true ffa is? If I hated it...why is alt dimension around?"

I'm saying, if I hated true ffa, then why would I have agreed that it is a good idea and encouraged Slider to make it? If he continued anyway, I'd be in a mod that I hate the features of and I obviously wouldn't be around for long. My statement holds true. You are just trying to twist it to make me look bad.

Slider thought it up. I agreed that it's a good idea. Alt Dim exists. If there was some big flaw in it, Slider and I would discuss a way to correct the flaw. He doesn't just add things he thinks is "cool"...he gets input first.

Common sense would show that Slider makes the features in this mod. I assumed you had the common sense to realize that. Little did I know that you would actually take what I said and try to claim that I said that I make JA+ features, not Slider...so excuse me.

I'll spell it out more simply for you.


If...I.......hated..........true....ffa!.....so much!....why.....do......I....."support".....and.. ....help.....a.....mod......that.........allows... .......a......server.....to................have... ......both.......true......ffa!......and.......... "honor".....rules.....? Don't you think I would have tried talking Slider into not having alt-dim around because suddenly....true ffa is "invading" my supposed "honor only" mindset?


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Old 08-11-2005, 04:39 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod
Who said anything about me not respecting what true ffa is? If I hated it...why is alt dimension around?
Well He wrote his comments a little quickler but never wanted to say he was the creator of the concept alt dim.
he also never wanted to say that he implemented...

SUre he began to help well after that the alt dim concept were coded....

He just wanted to say, that he is one of my best helper in beta test and balanced feature...
He also suggest some improvement when he look at server to see how what i code or what i think is used by players...

But please don't restart a flaming topics here
this is not the goal of this topic...

I am at the moment speaking with Ensiform in MSN and i happen to know him...
He is absolutly not the man i was implying in my topics...
He just beleived some bad and wrong rumors about me that some ^people in the community are trying to wildspread..
Some of the pople that want to support him are just trying perhaps to make him and me entering in a war or something...

But he and I are now friends...
I also just explained and helped him about how to correct one of the crash server basejjka exploits for this Red SLushie mod that he couldn't understand to FIx...
ANd we probably will continue to help each other and share things...

at least this is what i want to do

COder community need to respect each other....
THere are too much conflicts already between some part of the community ...
ANd we don't need that coder be attached to one of the part...

Mods are not attached to honour or rpg or competitive
Mods develope things to help server operators to make the server they want and the feature they like...

it is not the mod which make the server but the server owners...

and the coders don't force server operators to make a server they don't like..
and coders are not attached to honour community or competitive one

coders are above that
and coders need to be respectfull between each others


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Old 08-11-2005, 10:24 AM   #53
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#include, it has nothing to do with my "common sense", "twisting things", or ability to read, but with your inability to express yourself clearly. If putting .... between each of the words in your posts is what it takes for you to say what you mean, then I suggest that you should do that in all of your posts.

slider, I am glad you and ensiform cleared up that misunderstanding.

Now, getting back on topic, my question again for the coders who have responded so far (slider, ensiform, stubert): would it be possible to convert the current base JK2 and JA Duel gametype to make it into what the current "FFA dueling" modded gametype is? Could it be done server-side? Since real FFA has already been exterminated in both games I am thinking more of the future so history won't repeat itself, assuming the base duel gametype wouldnt be changed in a future JK game.

Regardless of whether you think it is the best approach or not, technically, could it be done server side?


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Old 08-11-2005, 04:44 PM   #54
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So, you actually think that I made JA+ altdim...very interesting. It's common sense that Slider does. I figured I didn't have to post like you were new to this game and go out and "explain" to you about my role. Guess I was wrong. Well, since you probably think I actually make JA+ itself, I'll "explain" something simple to you.

There is a mod called JA+. It overall changes the original gameplay (meaning, not a total conversion like forcemod III...which I will not go and explain to you in simple terms because it's a waste of my time). Of coarse, with anything...there is a creator. Slider is the one who created JA+. He is from France. He is male. Now, when I say created, it means.... to make....meaning....he does the coding....which is a "fancy" word for creating in a way the computer understands. Hopefully you may know what a computer is. Last time I assumed something incredibly simple with you, you still didn't get it....but I'm going to assume that you know what a computer is, at least.

Is there anything else I have to explain to you? If so, get it over with. This topic needs to get back to the real subject instead of you trying to nit-pick people's posts just to try to discredit them.


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Old 08-11-2005, 07:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
#include, it has nothing to do with my "common sense", "twisting things", or ability to read, but with your inability to express yourself clearly. If putting .... between each of the words in your posts is what it takes for you to say what you mean, then I suggest that you should do that in all of your posts.
... Huh? I think it's quite clear what he meant if you read what he typed.


Anyway, try to stay civil.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:14 PM   #56
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Ahem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Now, getting back on topic, my question again for the coders who have responded so far (slider, ensiform, stubert): would it be possible to convert the current base JK2 and JA Duel gametype to make it into what the current "FFA dueling" modded gametype is? Could it be done server-side? Since real FFA has already been exterminated in both games I am thinking more of the future so history won't repeat itself, assuming the base duel gametype wouldnt be changed in a future JK game.

Regardless of whether you think it is the best approach or not, technically, could it be done server side?

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Old 08-11-2005, 11:43 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Ahem.
Enjoy posting pointless spam messages much?


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Old 08-13-2005, 11:12 PM   #58
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[QUOTE Slider744:]Originally Posted by MyKell who also like to say wrong thing about me prenting i try to smap his mailbox ==> quit stupid
Wow. I guess Slider is not liked much around here.[/QUOTE]

I have said nothing wrong. You, Slider744, or one of you little admin monkeys, submitted my e-mail address to several sites. I started getting spam within minutes of me posting on JA+ forums and e-mailing you a f-off message. I have the IP that was used in the submission and am currently waiting for a response from http://www.hispeed.ch (the ISP).


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