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Old 08-13-2005, 08:50 PM   #41
DarthMuffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lettuce
I would like to see Bioware make the game but that doesnt seem likely. Bioware would have given us a finished game they would have never tried to do more than they could handle in the time given to them. But that doesnt really matter because it seems Bioware is going to be focused on its own IPs for the next few years.
Well, KotOR I was a bit rushed in the later parts (starforge).

But it's nothing like TSL, where they even "forgot" to remove the map pings of the cut areas, and the lack of any kind of ending.

Anyway, it's more LA's fault. They might have decided at the last minute that they wanted the game out sooner, and Obsidian didn't have time to finish things up. However, I do remember reading an interview last summer with an Obsidian employee saying that the game was basically finished, and that they were testing stuff. We will probably never know what truly happened.

Of course they had absolutely no excuse for not fixing the map pings and bugs such as with force speed and force aura for the PC version which came about a month later.


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Old 08-13-2005, 09:06 PM   #42
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Neither: Bioware has said it will concentrate on their own IP for now, and Obsidian proved unable to stand up to LA pressure on the release date. How about a Dev with a proven track record of: "When its finished"

Bethesda

Troika would be good as well, but didn't they go under?


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Old 08-13-2005, 09:22 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darth54
Well, KotOR I was a bit rushed in the later parts (starforge).
Quite arguable. The StarForge was at least very stressing due to the number of enemies thrown at you.
Trayus was...well...a walk in the park.


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Old 08-13-2005, 09:32 PM   #44
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BIOWARE dosent make great RPGs good but not great now all Obsidian did was add to biowares stuff,so bioware could make a desent 3rd game thier frist string games soemtimes leave out alot of things and thier updates leave alot to be diserd.
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Old 08-13-2005, 09:36 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zippydsm
BIOWARE dosent make great RPGs good but not great now all Obsidian did was add to biowares stuff,so bioware could make a desent 3rd game thier frist string games soemtimes leave out alot of things and thier updates leave alot to be diserd.
Hmm... Let's see, Bioware has made Jade Empire, NeverWinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and KotOR... Wouldn't you consider any of these great RPGs? Because I consider all of them great.


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Old 08-13-2005, 10:34 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by DarthMoeller
Hmm... Let's see, Bioware has made Jade Empire, NeverWinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and KotOR... Wouldn't you consider any of these great RPGs? Because I consider all of them great.
Jade Empire (good), Neverwinter Nights (good), Baldur's Gate (great), and KoTOR (great).

I'd say they're 50/50 on great games. Jade Empire was much too short, too little party interaction, and much too linear after you reach the Lotus Assassin stronghold. Neverwinter Nights had the same plot as KOTOR, but KOTOR did it much better. It was much too linear, and there was zero party interaction.
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Old 08-14-2005, 10:43 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by IndianaSolo
Neverwinter Nights had the same plot as KOTOR, but KOTOR did it much better. It was much too linear, and there was zero party interaction.
actually, KotOR had the same plot as NWN as it was the first out and you thought NWN was linear??? There's not a single main quest in the game that has to be done before another one is required..

and though there wasn't much, there was Party interaction, along with sidequests for each NPC depending on which one you chose as your "hired hand"... they were able to make bigger better weapons when you found certain items.. plus each had their own backstory you could unlock with enough conversation...and it even included the romance element (ahh.. my lovely Aribeth, or Linu, or both hehehe)...

though granted, KotOR did a much better job upon improving those elements since Bioware pretty much proved it could be done with NWN...

I must respectly give NWN a "great" score along with a "great" for KotOR and an "absolutely stunningly fantastic" score for Baldur's Gate I/II


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Old 08-14-2005, 02:40 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ChAiNz.2da
actually, KotOR had the same plot as NWN as it was the first out and you thought NWN was linear??? There's not a single main quest in the game that has to be done before another one is required..
My mistake. I didn't really make my post clear enough. About my two points:

1-I didn't mean to imply NWN copied KOTOR's story, because I know it was out first. I simply meant that NWN's version didn't seem very well fleshed out, whereas KOTOR took the story and fleshed it out deeply, thus I thought NWN's version of the story (althought it was out first) was "good" and KOTOR's version of the story was "great".

2-It's been a while, so I probably got it confused. But for some reason NWN's quests and open endedness didn't seem on par with true open ended stories like BG, FO or the like. And since it's story wasn't as deep as KOTOR's, IMO it was a "tweener". It wasn't completely open ended ala FO or BG, but it wasn't a cinematic masterpiece like KOTOR, thus my "good" rating for it.
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Old 08-14-2005, 03:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by IndianaSolo
Jade Empire (good), Neverwinter Nights (good), Baldur's Gate (great), and KoTOR (great).

I'd say they're 50/50 on great games. Jade Empire was much too short, too little party interaction, and much too linear after you reach the Lotus Assassin stronghold.
Jade Empire was a great game I'm sure we all would agree that make it a bit longer would have been nicer but it was still great. The reason why the game was much more linear than any of their previous titles is because they wanted the story to be the main focus of the game. They allowed some deviation(i'm almost 100% sure I spelled that wrong) from the story at certain parts because the characters are still searching for leads anywhere they can find them. After that however it takes a more commonsense approach. You wouldnt run back to town to find some old ladies lost dog when you are 3 steps away from killing the main bad guy.

Also Jade empire had one of the best stories I've ever seen in a game and a much better plot twist than KOTOR1(the plot twist in KOTOR was extremly obvious, the one in JE made my head explode out of suprise).


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Old 08-14-2005, 04:37 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by IndianaSolo
My mistake. I didn't really make my post clear enough. About my two points:
That's kewl, I can live with that.. hehehe

Hey, at least we both agree that KotOR was great


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Old 08-14-2005, 04:39 PM   #51
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I judge great games on how appealing they were a)on my first play through and b)how many times they compel me to play them again.

Jade Empire was great on the first play through, but the linearity of it made it (IMO of course) not so great to play through again.

If it was strictly an action game, I'd probably consider it great. But since it was a RPG with action components, I compare it on the same level I do all RPGs (which is criterias a and b above) and JE falls short.
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Old 08-15-2005, 03:02 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Quite arguable. The StarForge was at least very stressing due to the number of enemies thrown at you.
Trayus was...well...a walk in the park.
Quite true. And it does make sense, after all, for your character to rush through the starforge...

About Bethesda : I've always liked Elder Scrolls game myself since you can just do whatever you want, anytime you want. I can see a SW game using a similar system as in Morrowind (would be like a cross between RPG and shooter), though the open-class system wouldn't work (IMO, anyway).

Problem is, Bethesda is hard at work with Oblivion, and I suppose they'll want to release an expantion or two before doing anything else.


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Old 08-25-2005, 06:31 AM   #53
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I think maybe both, because Bioware rocks but obsidian did improve alot, but Kotor 2 seemed like a mod to me like an amature tried to improve on biowares work a collaboration of the 2 would make an awesome game i believe
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Old 08-25-2005, 02:53 PM   #54
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If I had the choice between the two, I'd vote for Bioware (but that's just wishful thinking...)

I just played K1 again recently and I was amazed at the sense of detail in the textures, the dialogues, the storyline, etc in comparison to K2. Sure TSL has more items, a better upgrade and feedback system but almost everything is re-used from Kotor, even the armors which are for the vast majority, just reskins from K1. Sometimes the placeables have been reused in some weird ways too: why would the mandalorians plant Rakatan flags all around their camp???

I was just thinking about the city areas: Taris/Manaan vs and Nar Shadaa and Onderon. Well there is no comparison: Taris and Manaan are much bigger, the artwork much more detailed and there is a lot more to do in quantity and variety. In K1, there was also all that people walking in the streets, while in Kotor 2, Nar Shadaa was almost completely empty and the npcs didn't even walk but just stand in place.

You also had much more freedom in your movements in K1. In K2, you are constantly put in control pf party members you don't chose, which limits the possible interaction with your party members and increases the feeling of linearity.

The writing was also much better in K1 IMHO.

Don't get me wrong: I still think K2 was good and I had fun playing it. Obsidian had good ideas and the story began pretty well but there were too many loose ends in various aspects.

I hope that for K3, things are going to change.
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Old 08-25-2005, 03:42 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Darth333
You also had much more freedom in your movements in K1. In K2, you are constantly put in control pf party members you don't chose, which limits the possible interaction with your party members and increases the feeling of linearity.
I also got that feeling when I replayed KOTOR II, but I think that was partly because of the influence system, I didn't want to screw off all my party members completely, so I had to choose the same dialog options very often in my unchanging need to max influence on them 8[

The extent of party interaction is quite interesting in KOTOR II, since most of them are triggered on the Ebon Hawk and not at some random point in the game compared to KOTOR I (imo). But still it's kinda sad that most party interactions are limited either on the Ebon Hawk or when you enter a new planet.
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Old 08-25-2005, 04:31 PM   #56
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In my opinion, Bioware should do it. I don't know what it was about it, but I liked KOTOR much more than KOTOR II.


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Old 08-25-2005, 06:03 PM   #57
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It doesn't matter who makes this game (provided it DOES get made, of course). Both developers would be just fine if given the right amount of time and a good budget. Bioware would have put out a very comparable product given the same constraints as Obsidian (different story, maybe, but same glitches and problems). Of course K1 is more primitive than K2 considering it was the first one and K2 built off of K1. I guess you could consider K1 the starting point or "beta" for K2 and perhaps (I hope anyway) K2 could be the "beta" for K3.
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Old 08-25-2005, 06:04 PM   #58
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I also got that feeling when I replayed KOTOR II, but I think that was partly because of the influence system, I didn't want to screw off all my party members completely, so I had to choose the same dialog options very often in my unchanging need to max influence on them 8[
She's talking about the time on NarShaddaa where you were forced to play as Atton and on the Ravager when Mandalore and Visas were forced upon you. Not to mention the few times you had to play as T3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilodon
The extent of party interaction is quite interesting in KOTOR II, since most of them are triggered on the Ebon Hawk and not at some random point in the game compared to KOTOR I (imo). But still it's kinda sad that most party interactions are limited either on the Ebon Hawk or when you enter a new planet.
Actually, you could talk and interact with your party members every time you leveled up. It's not totally random.


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Old 08-25-2005, 06:42 PM   #59
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BioWare and Obsidian both did great jobs with their games, but Obsidian just left so much more open. It would be smart to let Obsidian do the job, but I'm sure BioWare could continue the story of KotOR II almost as good as Obsidian could. Considering they both made amazing games, it does not matter who makes it, as long as its enjoyable.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:46 PM   #60
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Can I have both of them make this one? I want the best of both worlds!!!!!
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Old 08-26-2005, 11:06 AM   #61
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Bioware all the way. They made a story that rivalled the original. Yes obsidium brought in heaps of new features (that were awsome) but thats to be expected from a sequal. There was too many holes in kotor 2 storyline and Biowares was sound and flowed a lot better. Characters in kotor were so much better as well Bindoo, Carth, even Mission and Big Z. Plus Reven was heaps cooler than the exile. I only hope that Bioware do kotor 3, thats if LA even do it.
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Old 08-27-2005, 06:58 AM   #62
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I would rather BioWare make it. KotOR is their creation. Sure, Obsidian added many things, but BioWare would have done the same if they made the sequel. Personally I like KotOR I's story better, just because the second's had many questions unanswered. It seems that, because Obsidian made the sequel, they didn't really know where BioWare wanted to go with it, so they made something new, that had a small amount of things from the first (story wise). Having said that, I think it's fitting that Obsidian be the ones to make KotOR III, only so that they can finish the story of the second game the right way. Although, Obsidian needs to do a much better job with this one, and polish it much, much more.


My vote goes to Obsidian, but with worries.
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Old 08-27-2005, 12:20 PM   #63
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Bioware all the way. They made a story that rivalled the original. Yes obsidium brought in heaps of new features (that were awsome) but thats to be expected from a sequal. There was too many holes in kotor 2 storyline and Biowares was sound and flowed a lot better. Characters in kotor were so much better as well Bindoo, Carth, even Mission and Big Z. Plus Reven was heaps cooler than the exile. I only hope that Bioware do kotor 3, thats if LA even do it.

My thoughts exactly. While it was...interesting, KOTOR II's story simply failed to match the original's. KOTOR II was just...well...empty, if that makes any sense. The surprises and plot twists had little to no quality. I mean, I don't know about any of you, but I could tell Kreia was a Dark Jedi or something along those lines because of the way she acted. Sorry, but that's no Jedi. However, in the original, how many people expected your player to be Revan? And that Bastila would be captured and fall to the Dark Side? I wouldn't have suspected any of that. So, for me, its handsdown. Bioware all the way baby.


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Old 08-27-2005, 06:57 PM   #64
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I was just thinking about the city areas: Taris/Manaan vs and Nar Shadaa and Onderon. Well there is no comparison: Taris and Manaan are much bigger, the artwork much more detailed and there is a lot more to do in quantity and variety. In K1, there was also all that people walking in the streets, while in Kotor 2, Nar Shadaa was almost completely empty and the npcs didn't even walk but just stand in place.
Cities were a huge disappointment for me in TSL. I was just expecting more. I'm sure that quite a lot of us were expecting a complex "space station" type of areas for Telos (especially after seeing the arrival cinematic); it turned out to be ~4 areas of complete boredom.

Dantooine? Ripped from KotOR I, turned around a little. Korriban? They took the one from KotOR I, deleted the initial areas and changed the landing zone (Korriban was my last planet during my first time through, and I just felt robbed when I saw what it was).

Iziz (Onderon) was just too small to give any kind of "I'm in a capital city" feeling to the player; and that's what modern RPGs are really missing. I know I'm biased on this, but just look at Baldur's Gate and Athkatla : they're huge! Many quests, different merchants and shops everywhere, NPCs with things to say... And that was not at the expanse of dungeon and wilderness areas; BG1 had it's share of forest exploring and complex dungeons like Durlag's Tower. BG2 didn't have that many wilderness areas, but the dungeons were really special (Spellhold was great) and it was rather nice to explore the perfectly skinned and modelled Suldanesselar at the end. [/rant]

My biggest disappointment was by far Nar Shaddaa though. Perhaps I was expecting too much (I confess I was hoping it would look a little like Coruscant, or at least similar to the way it is shown in the Jedi Knight games). In the end, I think it's the best city in the game, but it could have been so much more.

On a side note, anyone else would like to see Coruscant in the possible KotOR III? It could have higher levels (with areas such as the Senate building and the Jedi Temple, like we see in RotS) and lower, slumish, areas (Cantina in AotC).

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Not to mention the few times you had to play as T3.
Of all the times you are forced to be someone else, I actually found those to be the most interesting. Gotta like T3


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Old 08-28-2005, 05:43 AM   #65
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Can I have both of them make this one? I want the best of both worlds!!!!!
Lol...Why not Bioware could help Obsidian a lot with the depth of the game just like in K1 better back story's and much more. If the work together you get te best result!
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Old 08-28-2005, 09:27 PM   #66
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When I play KOTOR 2 on my X-Box I complete the mission of finding a new fuel source but when I go to Telos to talk to the head security guy I never get to tell him that I have a new fuel source but it says in my journal that I've completed it. I know it doesn't really matter but it just annoys me.
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:14 AM   #67
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Yeh T3's a pretty cool little droid. very true about the cities and planets being a let down. in k1 all the planets were pretty lively and full of people. In TSL they were so desolate and boring, should take a leaf out of BG1 and BG2 like you say.

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Old 09-06-2005, 09:48 PM   #68
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Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.
*agrees*

The only thing I'd like to add is that BioWare hasn't had a chance to update to it's original. All in all, although Obsidian did a brilliant job of recapping all of the nifty features and unique setup of the first, it felt to me that they just patched KotOR up with a new storyline and a bit more character customization.

I believe BioWare, if given a chance, could work along with Avellone to create an excellent storyline; but at the same time, give the whole game a fresh new look with better, optimized gameplay improvements instead of the same old stuff being re-used.
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