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Old 10-20-2005, 01:17 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze629
I have watched it carefully MANY times. If we're all so wrong then how come Yoda does not initiate an attack of his own with lightning? We see Dooku initiate an attack with lightning but NOT Yoda. Can Yoda do it? There is no question in my mind that he CAN, but he WON'T.
What has that got to do with anything? The assertion was made that Yoda cannot or will not use Force Lightning.

We have clear visual evidence that he DOES use Force Lighthing (I suspect people forget that last part of the scene, and are thinking only of the first exchange).

You're asking a seperate question... that is, whether Yoda is allowed to just throw lightning at Dooku, or if he chooses to let him "throw the first punch."

Is that part of the rhetoric that Jedi "never attack" and "only defend"?

There's a difference between straight up defense (like blocking, or dodging, simply to preserve self) and COUNTER ATTACK (seeking to eliminate the threat either to yourself or others), wouldn't you agree?

Though I'm sure in military terms, counter attack is probably lumped in with the concept of "defense" (of course military makes things more complicated and bogs things down in jargon... witness the whole "pre-emptive war" against Iraq by the US).

If Yoda considers counter attacks to be part of defense, and not the same as plain "attacks" then I guess I can see the logic of the argument, and it shows that his philosophy has not changed... from a certain point of view.


Where I've been calling people "wrong" is in the assertion that Yoda never used Force Lightning. Clearly he does. What I want to see proven is the assertion that Jedi never use the Force to attack anyone. I see that being invalidated from examples from the movies as well, unless you create a new definition of "defense" that includes counter attack to percieved threat.

So a Jedi could attack somebody with the Force if he was attacked first... right?


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Old 10-20-2005, 03:01 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Prime
Because the Jedi presumably had prepared for the Sith as they new them from a thousand years previously. Before the Battle of Ruusan the Sith were to a large extent a military force, and then went to the Rule of Two. The Sith essentially transformed into a new entity (using sabatage and other non-confrontational methods), against which the Jedi were not prepared. Although presumably they should have been more prepared having know of the Rule of Two.
The trouble is the ROTS novelisation concludes that the Jedi were unprepared to fight the Sith. This newer source, much closer to the movie (despite the extra non-filmic elements still being lesser canon) clarifies some of these issues. The old backstory of the Sith has had to be retconned a few times, thanks to the prequels.

Quote:
There are lots of references outside the films that talk about the Jedi dueling each other.
Fair enough. I just find it hard to believe that the Sith were the only beings in the galaxy to ever use Lightning, and that for a thousand years, the Jedi all trained to resist lightning (how? if you have nobody to train with that uses it?) all that time. I was forced to assume that Yoda was just a quick study.

Obi-Wan improvises with his saber after seeing what happened to Anakin. Yoda could have surmised a solution having seen the previous battle through the force perhaps, or else he's just a quick study, as before.

OR, perhaps Yoda KNOWS HOW TO USE LIGHTNING in addition to knowing how to counter it, so he was ready! The EU makes mention of "Sith Holocrons" in the Jedi temple that apparently all high level Jedi have access too (Dooku's access was finally revoked after he left the order).


Quote:
As for Lightning, if the Sith had used it on the battlefield in the previous millenia I don't think it is unfeasible that the Jedi would know how to defend themselves against it.
If they thought the Sith extinct, then what would be the point in training for all that time to defeat such a tactic? Unless of course the knowledge of Force Lightning still existed, and thus it was a constant threat, regardless of the Sith. Just like lightsabers. If the Jedi are the only ones in the galaxy who use lightsabers (something the prequels seem to indicate, though the ANH novel says they were in widespread use in the galaxy at one time and still are in some places), then logically only renegade Jedi would be a threat from this tactic. On the other hand, they may have trained with their lightsabers for sport, in the long years of peace as just something to do, like monks learning martial arts even though they never plan to use the on anybody.

A sport for exercise suddenly gets turned to serious use as it once was in the bygone days when the Jedi fought the Sith, with their return... or something like that.

But this idea that they are constantly training to fight the Sith makes it seem like the Jedi KNOW the Sith are still alive and out there, just waiting to unleash their lightning attacks on everyone. That doesn't jibe with what's said about the Sith in the prequels themselves and the backstory from the prequel novelisations (I mean of the actual films, not some in-between EU book).

Quote:
But that being said, the only Jedi we see defending themselves with success are Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda. These were all master and council level Jedi, so whether the knowledge was know to the rank and file is not clear.
And the only Jedi we've seen not defend themselves against it are Luke and Anakin. Yet I would think Anakin could have stopped it, he just rushed in unprepared. After all, if Lightning was Anakin's aquille's heel, why didn't Dooku just use it on him in their personal duel? He'd have won instantly. Or why didn't he use it later on when he was fighting Anakin the second time in ROTS?

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I think lightning is out of the question, but certainly there is some use of the force in combat situations.
Why, exactly? Later on you seem to be saying "because Lucas said it's for bad guys only." That's about the only logical answer I see forthcoming from you guys. But then the question remains, in-universe, why can't the Jedi use it? Lack of knowledge? Or some taboo?

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I think how the force is used plays a large part.
Fair enough, but it's pretty vague, all things considered.

Quote:
I know you don't like starwars.com, but in the movie section it claims "Only the most promising of the Imperial ranks were selected for Royal Guard duty, based on stringent requirements of size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty." So considering the Emperor likely did the selecting and knew that at some point he would need to protect himself against the Jedi it is reasonable to assume that they were at least in part trained to resist the mind trick.
It's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't recognize it as G-Level canon. At best it includes summaries of other sources, which may or may not be accurate. The site often lags behind what Lucas himself says in interviews or does in the movies. So that's why I don't consider it a hard and fast "rule" for deciding these things. Even the Letters to the Jedi Council, which very good for authoritative info, itself is subject to change in light of Lucas's policy of making it up as he goes along (which is not something I'm arguing he can't do or is a bad thing necessarily).

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I just think the ESB quote is over applied.
Agreed.

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I'm basing it on official sources, as well as what Lucas states (see below).
One can't get anymore official than the movies themselves, which is what I'm arguing based on, primarily. But see below...

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I thought I remembered one of those Jedi Council things saying that it was, but alas those are no longer around.
If it was ever posted, it should be archived, see if you can find it.

Quote:
But certainly they are not posting false information, especially when it comes to sections related to the films.

If you choose to disregard what is stated on starwars.com, that is your perogative.
Not false, just outdated, or open to interpretation, as the case may be.

I don't ignore it, I just compare it to the movies themselves and other info to see how accurate it is. If there's no evidence for it in the movie itself, it might as well just be an interpretation.

Quote:
I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe he is generating the lightning. And watching it again now does not change that view.
The Lightning is coming out of his hands, and moving towards Dooku. He's wielding it like a weapon. This seems like high level nitpicking semantics to say that he's not "generating" it, so therefore Yoda and all Jedi do not "use Lightning."

Quote:
Again, I don't think he does have Yoda using Force Lightning, and I think this is supported my Lucas' comments. On the AOTC commentary he does state the following when talking about the Skywalker/Kenobi/Dooku fight:

"...I had to begin to show that Dooku had these powers similar to what the Emperor had. Sith powers. Dark Side powers...so we do a little bit of the Sith thing in the beginning to get rid of Anakin and let Obi-Wan have his fight."

Obviously he is refering to lightning since that is specifically what takes Anakin out of the fight, and pre-ROTS it is the only power we see the Emperor use. Do you not agree that Lucas is straight up calling Force Lightning and Sith and Dark Side power?

So no point mentioning it.
First off I'll say, obviously the audio commentary is recorded at a certain place and time and not necessarily when the film is completely finished. For example in the commentary during the scene where Jango is killed, Yoda is shocked that the FX guys actually finished the shot of the extra sparks on the "malfunctioning jetpack." But then the "Yoda throws lightning" as far as I can remember was in the theatrical version as well. It could be that Lucas never intended for Yoda to use lightning, but there it is, plain as day.

So there's a disconnect between what he's saying and what he's showing. I don't know how to resolve this honestly, since Lucas's words are authoritative, but then so are the movies. I will point out though that he doesn't say anything about Yoda's force moves later on, does he? There's huge portions of the movies that he doesn't explain, or does so in a very vague way. This thus leaves a lot of things unanswered and open to interpretation. Maybe he'll say something more on the ROTS DVD, we can only hope...

But still, if the point was, as he stated, to show that Lightning is a Dark Side power, why does he show Yoda using it? He never answers that question, as if it never occured to him that people would ask!

Quote:
Because Anakin was damaged goods, which is why the Emperor saught to replace him with Luke in the first place. Lucas has stated that Vader ended up being 80% the power of the Emperor, whereas he was originally destined to be twice as powerful.
I've heard that as well. I personally think the whole "cybernetics makes you weaker in the force" argument to be awfully stupid (and if it's body mass, why aren't the jedi all fat as sumo wrestlers? and why is little tiny Yoda super powerful?), but Lucas himself apparently believes it, so oh well. Fine, I won't push that particular point.


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Old 10-20-2005, 04:33 AM   #43
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I just watched AOTC.

Yoda is not using lightning, he's deflecting Dooku's. No lightning is coming out of him.

And it's not body mass = strength in force. It's that your body is a catalyst for the force. When you lose part of your being you lose that much connection to the force. Think of it like the brain, size doesn't matter, only capability.


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Old 10-20-2005, 10:26 AM   #44
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IS - I don't think Kurgan will change his mind on the subject of Yoda using force lightning

I freely admit that I'm no expert with SW canon, not having read any SW novels or anything, although I have added "Labyrinth of Evil" to my reading list on Prime's recommendation. However I took the time to review the 13 seconds of footage that the lightning portion of the duel occurs in and I wish to offer up my observations and interpretation of the Yoda-Dooku duel in AotC.

Starting with the force lightning part of the duel:
Dooku's 1st force lightning attack
1) Dooku extends his hand, fingers towards Yoda, and fires a one-handed force lightning attack at Yoda.
2) Yoda extends his right hand, palm towards Dooku, and all of Dooku's lightning appears to draw in towards Yoda's hand.
3) Dooku stops his initial force lightning attack.
4) Yoda seems to draw in the remaining force energy into the palm of his right hand and a ball of bluish light has formed on Yoda's palm.
5) Yoda draws back his arm and then extends it again (in what I would characterize as a pushing motion) with palm facing towards Dooku and a lightning bolt comes out of the bluish ball of energy in Yoda's hand towards Dooku.
6) Dooku extends his right hand, palm facing Yoda.
7) The bolt of lightning coming from Yoda hits the palm of Dooku's extended hand then appears to deflect towards the ceiling where it terminates in an explosion of fire. I did not note any bluish ball of energy on Dooku's palm.
Dooku's 2nd force lightning attack
1) Dooku extends his right hand again, fingers extended and pointing towards Yoda, and fires a force lightning attack.
2) Yoda extends his right hand. A bluish ball of light appears again on his hand as Dooku's lightning hits.
3) Multiple bolts appear from Dooku's hand but all are drawn in towards Yoda's palm.
4) Bolts are observed coming from Yoda's hand but these bolts are firing wildly in various directions going away from Yoda but not towards Dooku.
5) Dooku ceases his force lightning attack
6) Yoda draws in his hand and the remaining lightning appears to draw in towards the bluish energy ball on his palm.
7) Yoda closes his palm into a fist and as he does so the bluish ball of energy disappears.

INTERPRETATIONS
Based on these observations I don't think Yoda used force lightning in the same manner as Dooku nor do I think Yoda generated a force lightning attack of himself. I believe Dooku used force lightning twice in the duel. The first time Yoda was attacked I think he used what I would characterize as an absorb-reflect ability. I think Yoda took the energy from Dooku's lightning and then sent it right back at Dooku. Dooku used a deflect ability to send the lightning bolt from Yoda towards the ceiling where it exploded in fire.
The second time Yoda was attacked he used what I would characterize as an absorb-deflect ability. Lightning coming from Dooku was deflected in many directions, none of which were directly towards Dooku.
I also think it important to note the orientation of the hand. Dooku always has his fingers extended when using force lightning. This is in line with how Sidious uses force lightning as well (in RotS and RotJ). Yoda however does not have his fingers extended when the lightning bolt comes from his hand. His palm is facing Dooku and there is a ball of light in Yoda's palm. No ball of light is ever observed around Dooku's hand or Sidious' hand for that matter when they use force lightning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Obi-Wan improvises with his saber after seeing what happened to Anakin. Yoda could have surmised a solution having seen the previous battle through the force perhaps, or else he's just a quick study, as before.
Wasn't Yoda 800+ years old during the events of AotC? I'm sure he had plenty of time in his life to review Jedi and Sith history and was familiar with how the Sith used the force during combat. How Yoda would have been able to practice techniques to defend himself and/or counterattack is a question I think you already posed and to which I think there is no definitive answer...


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Old 10-20-2005, 10:26 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Fair enough. I just find it hard to believe that the Sith were the only beings in the galaxy to ever use Lightning, and that for a thousand years, the Jedi all trained to resist lightning (how? if you have nobody to train with that uses it?) all that time. I was forced to assume that Yoda was just a quick study.

OR, perhaps Yoda KNOWS HOW TO USE LIGHTNING in addition to knowing how to counter it, so he was ready! The EU makes mention of "Sith Holocrons" in the Jedi temple that apparently all high level Jedi have access too (Dooku's access was finally revoked after he left the order).
Well, the Jedi at large do not know of it, as stated in the AOTC novelization:

"But this was no simple warrior enemy. Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning, unknown to the Jedi, charged all about the trapped and lifted Jedi Padawan."

But perhaps Yoda knew about it, through some unknown means. It would appear that he may have imparted some of this knowledge to Luke, since he know he would be battling the Sith. From the ROTJ novelization:

"But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they course over and into him ...

That first part is interesting, since it suggests that there is some common knowledge on how to defend against Force attacks. So it is possible that even though they did not have any or limited knowledge of force lightning, they had some expertise in defending themselves from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
If they thought the Sith extinct, then what would be the point in training for all that time to defeat such a tactic? Unless of course the knowledge of Force Lightning still existed, and thus it was a constant threat, regardless of the Sith.
Perhaps they didn't train for that tactic in particular, but defense against force attacks in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why, exactly? Later on you seem to be saying "because Lucas said it's for bad guys only." That's about the only logical answer I see forthcoming from you guys. But then the question remains, in-universe, why can't the Jedi use it? Lack of knowledge? Or some taboo?
Probably both. Since it requires the dark side to use, no doubt most jedi would have no knowledge of it, as Anakin did not in AOTC. The few who did knew that it was of the dark side, and so may prepare themselves to defend against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
One can't get anymore official than the movies themselves, which is what I'm arguing based on, primarily. But see below...
Actually, the scripts, radiodramas, and movie novelizations are also considered G-canon by Lucasfilm. And of course what comes out of George's mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
If it was ever posted, it should be archived, see if you can find it.
They have been removed and will be returning shortly, according to the faq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Not false, just outdated, or open to interpretation, as the case may be.
Well, the two entries I cited have been updated since ROTS, so they can't be that out of date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The Lightning is coming out of his hands, and moving towards Dooku. He's wielding it like a weapon. This seems like high level nitpicking semantics to say that he's not "generating" it, so therefore Yoda and all Jedi do not "use Lightning."
It isn't nitpicking at all. If Yoda was actually generating it, that means he would be using anger, hate, and the dark side to do so. Since he is only defending himself and redirecting it, he requires no use of the dark side. Thus, whether he is generating it himself or not is entirely the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
First off I'll say, obviously the audio commentary is recorded at a certain place and time and not necessarily when the film is completely finished. For example in the commentary during the scene where Jango is killed, Yoda is shocked that the FX guys actually finished the shot of the extra sparks on the "malfunctioning jetpack." But then the "Yoda throws lightning" as far as I can remember was in the theatrical version as well. It could be that Lucas never intended for Yoda to use lightning, but there it is, plain as day.
It obviously isn't plain as day, since we can both look at the same footage and see something completely different.

In any event what you state shows that Lucas' DVD commentary was recorded after the theatrical release of the film was completed (of course) since the FX for the malfunctioning jetpack were newly added for the DVD release of the film and were not in the theatrical version. So it is after the film was completed and released that Lucas clearly states that the Sith/Dark Siders are the only ones who use Force Lightning. He is giving the canonical interpretation of what is happening on screen (and is supported by the visuals, IMO). Even if that wasn't the case, there are potatoes in the asteroid field in ESB. Does that mean that in-universe the Falcon is really dodging giant potatoes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So there's a disconnect between what he's saying and what he's showing.
I don't think so. Film aside, from what I see everything lines up between what lucas says, what the novels say, what the script says, and what starwars.com says. And three, if not all four, are G-canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But still, if the point was, as he stated, to show that Lightning is a Dark Side power, why does he show Yoda using it?
Because he doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I've heard that as well. I personally think the whole "cybernetics makes you weaker in the force" argument to be awfully stupid (and if it's body mass, why aren't the jedi all fat as sumo wrestlers? and why is little tiny Yoda super powerful?), but Lucas himself apparently believes it, so oh well. Fine, I won't push that particular point.
Because each being has a certain amount of midi-clorians in their body. This is unrelated to how big they are, since yoda has the second highest count. These are distributed throughout the body, but obviously don't increase with cell count as force-sensitives are usually detected as babies, and Anakin had a higher concentration than Yoda at age 10. So getting fat in no way increases your midi count and thus force potential. When Vader lost x% of his body, he lost y% of his midis and thus force potential. I think it makes perfect sense personally as the force is generated by living things, and not all living things have minds, thus it must be related to the body.

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Old 10-20-2005, 11:54 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
What has that got to do with anything? The assertion was made that Yoda cannot or will not use Force Lightning.
It has EVERYTHING to do with this whole debate. Yoda NEVER once took the offensive against Dooku or Sidious on his own with force lightning. Throwing the "first punch" is not the concern here. When Dooku attacked him, Hai-Wan has pointed out the obvious. The ball of energy STAYS in his palm and then is reversed back to the caster. When Dooku goes for his sabre, how come Yoda did not release lightning of his own at that time? Yoda uses lightning according to you so how come he doesn't use it there? There was plenty of time after he had absorbed the last attack. How come Yoda used a force to push to knock Sidious back instead of using force lightning? He had a PERFECT opportunity to do so and lightning would have been much more damaging, so why didn't he use it? Let me repeat: Can Yoda do it? There is no question in my mind that he CAN, but he WON'T. "Clear visual evidence" that he uses force lightning? No. "Clear visual evidence" that he reverses an attack from someone else? Yes. Believe whatever you want to believe Kurgan.
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:11 PM   #47
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Okay, I'm going to make a concession here. I re-watched the scene AGAIN, this time in freeze frame, and then in regular motion, etc.

In the last sequence it does appear that Yoda is absorbing the bolts and simultaneously "deflecting" them. He has that little "energy orb" in his hand (often barely noticable, but you can make out the distinctive shape and glow from between his fingers). He does project the bolts towards Dooku, but none of them actually hit him, and despite what I thought earlier, no bolts are actually "hitting each other" in mid air. I guess looks can be decieving sometimes.

So, we only have one actual instance of Yoda generating a bolt of lightning, and that's in the first exchange. The one that Dooku "blocks" and sends into the wall producing fire.

The AOTC/ROTS Visual Dictionaries imply that the Jedi Archives contain "holocrons" and the Sith Holocron (mentioned in ROTS VD IIRC) contains knowledge of the Sith. Yoda studies this, and he is depicted as "probing the Dark Side" and other info in both the AOTC and ROTS supplementary materials. So I find it odd to think that he would never have come across anything about "Sith" Lightning, if indeed its a power they have used up in their thousand years (known to the Jedi) history.

That one could repel any Force attack in theory is a good argument, actually. The phrase "unknown to the Jedi" could mean that its not practiced by the Jedi, or simply not common knowledge. It need not mean that no Jedi has ever known how to do it. After all, somebody like Dooku knows how to do it (but we sort of assume that he learned from Palpatine, rather than he always knew, but was simply forbidden to use it by the Jedi Council's rules or something).

So anyway, I still say it's plain that Yoda uses Force Lightning, even if he doesn't use it FIRST (but only after Dooku initially attacks him). I consider it a counter attack, and proof that Yoda is not completely ignorant of the power. He's done something we haven't seen before or since, so I can see why it's confusing to a lot of us.

Anyway, to get back to another point, [b]what proof do we have that in order to use Force Lightning one has to utilize "hate, anger, and the dark side"?

Does Force Choke require "hate, anger and the darkside" to be used? Does Force Push?

I think by making that assumption people are assuming the conclusion they want to arrive that. They assume Yoda would never use the Dark Side, and Lightning is the Darkside, so Yoda would never use it. So if we see him use Lightning, he must not have really been using Lightning. That doesn't necessarily follow. Lightning may not be the Dark Side. And Yoda may be capable of using the Dark Side, like any other Jedi.

Using my knife analogy, it makes little difference if he "redirects it" vs. "creates it himself and uses it." He's still USING it, which means that if using it is the dark side, then he's using the dark side!

If the knife he throws back hits his target, then we could probably say the victim was killed by a thrown knife. Rather than arguing "well it wasn't really a thrown knife, because he only redirected it." The outcome is the same. And if the outcome is supposedly what matters to the Jedi (not just the "intention") then its perfectly relevant.

Does Lightning have to be redirected from Lightning? Can a person "absorb" a Force Push and turn it into Lightning? Again I don't see the problem with Yoda using Force Lightning. Those who assume Yoda is a perfect Jedi, and Lightning is only used by evil characters are forced into this circular thinking....

Why didn't Yoda use lightning more often than he did? That's an open question. But the idea that Yoda can but he WON'T is offset by the fact that he DID use it. Maybe he felt bad after his "sin" of using this "sith power" once? Who knows. Why did Dooku continue to throw lightning when it was clear Yoda could just keep absorbing it? Why would Yoda throw lightning back if it was clear that Dooku could block it?

Again, who knows. But it doesn't change the fact that Yoda did use Lightning at least once. Perhaps he felt guilty about it later, but we're never shown that.

One theory could be though that tossing lightning is a very taxing ability. Perhaps after throwing the initial burst, hoping to pulverize Dooku, Yoda realized he had to save his strength for the rest of the fight coming up. Similar to his Force Push against Palpatine... these attacks could be seen as a means of "softening up" his opponent, or just trying to shake him psychologically to show him that Yoda means business (perhaps scare his opponent a bit to give Yoda the edge). Intimidation is an important part of combat, after all, and there's nothing in the Jedi code that I know of against such tactics. So why didn't Dooku use his free hand during a saber lock to zap Yoda in the face with lightning? After all, Yoda was otherwise occupied, could he raise his hands in time? And if he did stop and raise his hands, cut him with the saber! Lucas obviously made some artistic choices, but there you go. Why didn't Qui Gon and Obi-Wan just Force Push over those Droideka? Why didn't Vader force choke Obi-Wan during their duel? (after all, Dooku Force choked Obi-Wan during THEIR duel in ROTS!) Who knows! (obviously it was dramatic purposes, but I mean why "in-universe"?)

But the "they were saving their power for a later time" might be as good an explanation as any.


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Old 10-21-2005, 12:51 AM   #48
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Uh... Yoda never uses lightning. He redirects Dooku's attack back at him and he deflects it to the ceiling. And your semantics about "using = same as generating" is absurd, essentially what you're saying is a countering defense is the same as throwing a punch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why would Yoda throw lightning back if it was clear that Dooku could block it?
Why keep swinging your saber if your opponent can block it?

Again, who knows. But it doesn't change the fact that Yoda did use Lightning at least once. Perhaps he felt guilty about it later, but we're never shown that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So why didn't Dooku use his free hand during a saber lock to zap Yoda in the face with lightning?
It's apparent you know nothing of swordfighting, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such an absurd question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why didn't Vader force choke Obi-Wan during their duel?
Pride. He was taken down by Obi-Wan's blade, he had to seek revenge for the injustice brought against him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
(after all, Dooku Force choked Obi-Wan during THEIR duel in ROTS!)
Vader != Tyrannus.


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Last edited by Insane Sith; 10-21-2005 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 10-21-2005, 01:03 AM   #49
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Ahhh, Kurgan. You bring a smile to my face my man. I think you like to argue the point because... well... because you just like to argue and take the viewpoint opposite of that supported by the mainstream. And a very good job of it you do too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So anyway, I still say it's plain that Yoda uses Force Lightning, even if he doesn't use it FIRST (but only after Dooku initially attacks him). I consider it a counter attack, and proof that Yoda is not completely ignorant of the power.
It really boils down to how you define the term "uses." I agree that Yoda counter-attacked Dooku with force lightning but unlike Dooku I don't think Yoda drew upon the force to generate the lightning. Yoda instead used the force to draw Dooku's lightning in and then redirect it back at Dooku. I think it key to note the differences in hand positions between Dooku and Yoda when force lightning is "used" to understand there is a distinct difference in the way they "use" it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
what proof do we have that in order to use Force Lightning one has to utilize "hate, anger, and the dark side"?
to which question I would refer you to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
If Yoda was actually generating it, that means he would be using anger, hate, and the dark side to do so. Since he is only defending himself and redirecting it, he requires no use of the dark side. Thus, whether he is generating it himself or not is entirely the question.
Personally, I think Lucas has made it abundantly clear in statements he has made and in how force lightning is depicted in the movies that force lightning is generated by a force adept who draws upon the dark side of the force.

Does Yoda have the ability to draw upon the dark side of the force?
I say most definitely he does. Just like any force sensitive he can use either side of the force in combat. I think Obi-Wan tapped into the dark side after seeing Darth Maul gut his master and he was enveloped in grief, anger, and a burning desire to avenge his master.
Did Yoda draw upon the dark side when he used force lightning to attack Dooku?
I think the answer to this question a little hazy but I agree with Prime in that I don't think Yoda generated the force lightning attack using his own force power, but rather used the force to turn Dooku's attack back into Dooku's face. Well, it would have gone into Dooku's face if Dooku hadn't put his hand out... But perhaps Yoda had second thoughts about using the same technique when Dooku attacked the second time since Yoda didn't "throw" the lightning back towards Dooku but rather deflected the lightning in multiple directions but not directly back at Dooku.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Using my knife analogy, it makes little difference if he "redirects it" vs. "creates it himself and uses it." He's still USING it, which means that if using it is the dark side, then he's using the dark side!

If the knife he throws back hits his target, then we could probably say the victim was killed by a thrown knife. Rather than arguing "well it wasn't really a thrown knife, because he only redirected it." The outcome is the same. And if the outcome is supposedly what matters to the Jedi (not just the "intention") then its perfectly relevant.
I don't really understand what you're trying to do with this analogy. Who said that the outcome, not just the intention, is what matters to the Jedi? My personal belief is that Jedi strive to live according the the principles of the Jedi Code. I for one would not consider a Jedi to have forsaken the Jedi Code and used the dark side of the force if the Jedi caught a knife thrown at him and then threw the knife back at the attacker. A Jedi has a right to defend himself and I wouldn't classify such an action as "dark side" behavior.


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Old 10-21-2005, 02:55 AM   #50
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oh boy... more arguments!

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Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Uh... Yoda never uses lightning. He redirects Dooku's attack back at him and he deflects it to the ceiling. And your semantics about "using = same as generating" is absurd, essentially what you're saying is a countering defense is the same as throwing a punch.
But Redirecting = using! If that one shot of him tossing the bolt at Dooku was deleted, I would have no choice but to agree with you. He would only absorb and "deflect" it throughout the fight. But since he tosses the bolt AT Dooku, then he uses lightning, end of story. Dark Side point for Yoda then I guess! (unless lightning is not dark only)

If you throw a punch at me, I block the punch and then swing my fist into you, am I punching, or just "redirecting" the blow? The ones nitpicking semantics are the ones who want to turn Yoda's use of lightning into Yoda's non-use of lightning. How much simpler can I put it?

And I don't see the problem with seeing Lightning as a "neutral" (ie: not Dark Side only) power, but still have it be "rare." Do we have to assume that the Jedi Knights know everything about the Force, and there is nothing left for them to learn?

Quote:
Why keep swinging your saber if your opponent can block it?
Or why do anything, because a counter exists for it? Exactly. So the argument that Yoda should have used lightning constantly if he used it once doesn't really answer anything.


Quote:
It's apparent you know nothing of swordfighting, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such an absurd question.
Right, because we both know force powers have any affect on real-life sword fighting... [/sarcasm]

I'm not a fencing master, but I do know that it's not impossible to fight one handed. In fact, Dooku does use his free hand to use the force later to rip the giant pillar out of the wall. So I guess I redirected that lightning bolt you just threw, metaphorically speaking!

Quote:
Pride. He was taken down by Obi-Wan's blade, he had to seek revenge for the injustice brought against him.
Nonsense. He chokes Obi-Wan with his robot hand during their ROTS Fight and tries to Force Push him. They jump around like circus acrobats. None of that happens in the ANH duel. Lucas's explanation? They're old men now, so it was a "hard fight." If you buy that explanation.

But if we look at the prequels, we can see that old men like Yoda and Dooku are fully capable of being "acrobatic" mid-sword fight, thanks to the Force. Even Palpatine is capable of mid-air flips. So go figure...

Quote:
Vader != Tyrannus.
But wait, I thought Vader was "way below his potential" because his body has been diminished by his injuries? So perhaps Dooku could have taken out Vader, if they had somehow met through time travel. Some have speculated that Vader's suit has a weakness against Force Lightning (a power we never see Anakin/Vader use), so perhaps Dooku could take him out rather easily.

Unless you meant pre-suit Anakin, in which case, well, he won (fair and square), even with a robotic arm, so I agree with you!

PS: Sithy, I will warn you that I have a lot of work catch up on this weekend, so if you feel like winning this one through sheer stamina, stick around. I probably won't have many more replies after tonight, unless I start slackin'.


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Old 10-21-2005, 11:39 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The phrase "unknown to the Jedi" could mean that its not practiced by the Jedi, or simply not common knowledge.
Likely the latter. Perhaps high level Jedi knew, and perhaps only Yoda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So anyway, I still say it's plain that Yoda uses Force Lightning
I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Anyway, to get back to another point, [b]what proof do we have that in order to use Force Lightning one has to utilize "hate, anger, and the dark side"?
Because Lucas said so (the dark side anyway). We also know that hate, anger, fear lead to the dark side. If you want to include the EU, it is explicitly stated in several locations. If not, we still know for a fact that lightning is a dark side power. But we have been over this already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Does Force Choke require "hate, anger and the darkside" to be used? Does Force Push?
Who knows? I'd say it is possible that choke does, but not push. But it doesn't matter, since we are talking about what Yoda did with lightning against Dooku. In that case, we are lucky to have Lucas' comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I think by making that assumption people are assuming the conclusion they want to arrive that.
You are ignoring what Lucas and other G-canon sources say on the topic to arrive at the conclusion you want to arrive at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
They assume Yoda would never use the Dark Side, and Lightning is the Darkside, so Yoda would never use it. So if we see him use Lightning, he must not have really been using Lightning. That doesn't necessarily follow. Lightning may not be the Dark Side. And Yoda may be capable of using the Dark Side, like any other Jedi.
Lightning is of the dark side and the Sith, as we know. And we know that having Dooku use lightning was added to specifically show that he was a Sith like the Emperor in ROTJ. If Lucas was showing Yoda using lightning, then that indicates that he is also like the Emperor, and presumably Sith. It doesn't make much sense to have Lucas say lightning is used to show he is a Sith and then have good guy Yoda do exactly the same thing. That would completely undermine the whole point of having Dooku use lightning in the first place. If everyone uses it, what is the difference between the Jedi and the Sith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Using my knife analogy, it makes little difference if he "redirects it" vs. "creates it himself and uses it." He's still USING it, which means that if using it is the dark side, then he's using the dark side!
We have different definitions of "use" in this case. The analogy don't really hold since the creation of the knife is not related to when it is used.

A more accurate contrived example is if lightning was like a stream of water coming out of a hose. If turning on the tap that the hose is connected to is considered an act of evil and of the dark side, Dooku is turning on the tap (and so "creating" the water stream and using the dark side) and spraying water at Yoda. Yoda is simply using a bucket to catch the water and then flining the water back at Dooku. What Yoda has done does not require the dark side because water is already in existence and does not require yoda to turn on the dark side tap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But the idea that Yoda can but he WON'T is offset by the fact that he DID use it.
It is not a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Does Lightning have to be redirected from Lightning? Can a person "absorb" a Force Push and turn it into Lightning? Again I don't see the problem with Yoda using Force Lightning. Those who assume Yoda is a perfect Jedi, and Lightning is only used by evil characters are forced into this circular thinking....
In order to make your view of what Yoda is doing fit, you need to have him act out of character as he is portrayed in the rest of the films. You need him to have issues with Anakin fearing for his loved ones and yet have no problem using dark side Sith powers without hesitation. Why would he be so concerned with Anakin and others avoiding emotions and feelings that lead to the dark side if there was no issue with using the dark side in the first place? And if Yoda has no problem using the dark side, why doesn't it forever dominate his destiny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But Redirecting = using!
And that is where we disagree. Redirecting it does not require the power of the dark side, which is what creating force lightning requires as stated by Lucas. That's like saying the Jedi is firing a blaster every time they deflect a blaster bolt with their lightsabers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
If you throw a punch at me, I block the punch and then swing my fist into you, am I punching, or just "redirecting" the blow?
Since you generated your own punch regardless of what your opponant did, that is not redirecting your opponants punch back at him, but creating a punch of your own. To use the punch analogy, to "redirect" you would be grabbing his arm when he punched and hitting him with his won fist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And I don't see the problem with seeing Lightning as a "neutral" (ie: not Dark Side only) power,
Which goes against G-canon, since it is a dark side/Sith power.

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Old 10-21-2005, 12:28 PM   #52
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:49 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I'm not a fencing master, but I do know that it's not impossible to fight one handed.
Not my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
In fact, Dooku does use his free hand to use the force later to rip the giant pillar out of the wall.
Except he's no longer sword fighting at this point, they're both idling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Nonsense. He chokes Obi-Wan with his robot hand during their ROTS Fight and tries to Force Push him. They jump around like circus acrobats.
And none of that argues against my point. RoTS != ANH. My point is that Vader wants a real saber battle with Obi-Wan, he wants to show that he is indeed the master and such cheap tricks are no longer necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But wait, I thought Vader was "way below his potential" because his body has been diminished by his injuries? So perhaps Dooku could have taken out Vader, if they had somehow met through time travel. Some have speculated that Vader's suit has a weakness against Force Lightning (a power we never see Anakin/Vader use), so perhaps Dooku could take him out rather easily.
Uh... what? All I was saying is Vader is not Dooku, they're different people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
To use the punch analogy, to "redirect" you would be grabbing his arm when he punched and hitting him with his own fist
^ Exactly what I meant.


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Old 10-22-2005, 02:13 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Except he's no longer sword fighting at this point, they're both idling.
Idling?

What constitutes "sword fighting" then? For another example, Vader is able to use the Force while fighting with Luke in ESB. In fact, such action does not necessarily even require hand gestures! But I thought Dooku's was a telling example of somebody in fact clearly using the Force during a duel without instantly being cut down.

Quote:
And none of that argues against my point. RoTS != ANH. My point is that Vader wants a real saber battle with Obi-Wan, he wants to show that he is indeed the master and such cheap tricks are no longer necessary.
So you're thinking he's toying with Obi-Wan in that scene, not trying to kill him? Interesting speculation. The only thing is, if that's true, why is Obi-Wan humoring him and also refusing to use any of his canon abilities?

Quote:
Uh... what? All I was saying is Vader is not Dooku, they're different people.
Oh ok. I thought you were saying that Vader was a better fighter.

Quote:
^ Exactly what I meant.
What about in Judo, the concept of using an enemy's force against himself? Is that what you're getting at? All through this I've seen it as simply the assumption that there's no way Yoda, a 100% pure LightSide Jedi, would (even if he could) use Lightning, because Lightning is assumed to be only usable via the Dark Side. If you take that assumption to heart, then you have to come up with a rationalization for the scene, ie: that "redirection" exhonerates Yoda from his sin.


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Old 10-22-2005, 12:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
In fact, such action does not necessarily even require hand gestures!
Except lightning does require hand gesutres, and doing something like that in a duel would be risky and very foolish. When you sword fight you can't just do **** all, you have to concentrate and focus on your opponent. Force throw and other powers along it's lines are powers of the mind, gestures aren't needed. Vader would be able to stay focused on his opponent (Luke), where as with lightning it takes a lot of focus to do so (as shown by no one being able to do anything while using it) and requires direction using the hand(s). Not to mention when Vader starts throwing things, they're not locking blades.


And I don't care about this "is lightning dark or neutral", what I'm saying is Yoda does not generate force lightning.


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Old 10-22-2005, 02:09 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Except lightning does require hand gesutres,
Okay, you've got me there (despite what we heard in Braveheart)!

Quote:
and doing something like that in a duel would be risky and very foolish.
Not if the lightning takes out your opponent! In that case it would be well worth it. We have multiple instances of people using "hand gesture" force powers in the middle of a saber fight (Anakin/Obi-Wan, Maul/Obi-Wan, Yoda/Dooku).

Quote:
Force throw and other powers along it's lines are powers of the mind, gestures aren't needed.
Wait, and other force powers aren't? Despite that we only ever see lightning coming out of somebody's fingers, why would any power require hand gestures? That's something we've never really known. Likewise, Vader can use hand gestures for his powers even when he doesn't have hands (they're robotic, according to ROTS). Which powers are "powers of the mind", exactly?

The video games are no help, because in them ALL powers use gestures (except maybe "saber blocking"), IIRC.

Quote:
Vader would be able to stay focused on his opponent (Luke), where as with lightning it takes a lot of focus to do so (as shown by no one being able to do anything while using it) and requires direction using the hand(s). Not to mention when Vader starts throwing things, they're not locking blades.
I'll watch both scenes again when I have a chance, but IIRC in Vader's case you could argue he's got his blade up but they're not clashing during it (though I could be wrong), though with Dooku I think it's fair to say they were fighting at the time. Maul has a split second opening and he uses the power. In the case of Anakin/Obi-Wan it's most obvious.

Quote:
And I don't care about this "is lightning dark or neutral", what I'm saying is Yoda does not generate force lightning.
But you will admit he "absorbs and redirects" a burst directly at Dooku during the fight. You just refuse to call that "usage" (because you demand that usage = generation from scratch). Did I understand your position correctly?


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