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Thread: the Great Staff/Single Saber Debate (split from the JA+ thread)
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Old 11-11-2005, 10:59 AM   #41
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LV, if I misread your posts, sorry. But that would end the debate, would it not? If we could see the numbers, what defensive/offensive bonuses the moves bring, and if we could compare the sabers, side by side, that would be the end of it. We could display such a thing for all to see, and we would see who is correct. If I am correct, fine. If you are correct, fine. If all of us are wrong to a certain degree, we can all agree that this has been an exercise in futility. I am going to look for them myself.

I find it... well... I can't even think of a suitable word for it... wee both base our arguements on what we have witnessed, and what we think. Nobody has actually found hard data on this subject. Well, I am going to try to do that. I will report back, and if I find anything conclusive, I will report back.

Again, sorry for letting this get so heated. It is not the Jedi Way, is it?



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Old 11-11-2005, 11:08 AM   #42
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There are no objective tables for the saber styles short of I think maximum possible damage (Yellow style does NOT consistently do 80 a swing except on head strike, and staff usually pulls around 45-60 a swing unless it gets a headstrike) and animation speed. Everything else is probability-based and random if I recall, with some styles getting a higher observable probability to block/penetrate guard.


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Old 11-11-2005, 11:22 AM   #43
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Hm. I didn't find anything, right there. A shame. Somebody should put one together. But yeah, nothing conclusive.

About the Staff breaking guard with diagonal hits: True, but not too many duelists hold still. Esp. if they are Blue Style. They try to run rings around the opponent. Heck, I do a lot of Force Jump during duels, it puts space between myself and my opponent, giving me a chance to use Heal/Drain. I never hang around while Red Stylists get a top-down hack on me. That's silly.

Speaking of strong side-swipes, holding down the Step Right key (D by default) does a side-swipe in Red Style that does the damage of Red style with the speed of almost Yellow. Then, during recovery, the player can do a backward roll to escape the ill effects of Red Style. You may test that one out for yourself; it works well, and is an excellent way to take 60+ HP of an opponent. And it isn't considered cheap unless that's all you do. If I play Red Style for a while, I use that if my Force Mana is depleted, and so is my health. I do that, and even the game a bit. Heck, that works well vs. Staves, or anything, except that irritating Ugnaught bot that just uses a blaster and runs. I rarely take damage from him...

Special non-force draining moves are your friend in combat. Blue style has a bottom-up slice that no other style can do. Yellow style... well, has few Dueling advantages, but is good for multiple opponents, esp. the backwards side-swipe, if you don't use it much.

My point is the Single Sabers has tricks up it's sleeve to counter the Staff and Dual sabers, even if those weapons do have more raw power.



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Old 11-11-2005, 12:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
There are no objective tables for the saber styles short of I think maximum possible damage (Yellow style does NOT consistently do 80 a swing except on head strike, and staff usually pulls around 45-60 a swing unless it gets a headstrike) and animation speed. Everything else is probability-based and random if I recall, with some styles getting a higher observable probability to block/penetrate guard.
Plus, the main factor of doing damage with the basejka system is related to where/how long the saber animation places the blade in another player's body. The basejka saber has no mechinism for materials to resisting or deflect blades after they are hit. As such, the staff animations are set up in a way that pretty much guantrees both blades @ least touching the targets.


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Old 11-11-2005, 10:28 PM   #45
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Personally, I despise the whole baseJKA saber combat system. There is an absurd number of illogicities and imbalances throughout the entire system.

Play staffsaber for an hour or two. Then switch to single saber blue style. Tell me how 'balanced' it is.

Things that annoy me:
Why do the staffsaber and dual sabers have FASTER animations than single saber BLUE stance?
Why does the red stance exist AT ALL? (LIGHTSABERS DO NOT WEIGH 20KG, PEOPLE!)
What's with the horribly inconsistent 'blocking'?

Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.
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Old 11-11-2005, 10:35 PM   #46
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Staff style is faster than Blue Style? I didn't notice.



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Old 11-12-2005, 12:20 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyrusticae
Personally, I despise the whole baseJKA saber combat system. There is an absurd number of illogicities and imbalances throughout the entire system.

....

Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.
There's no accounting for taste, but c'mon. If that isn't way off base.

The single player system is NOTHING like the multiplayer saber system. And the SP version is much more random and floaty than you'll see in even the laggiest games. Now if you want to talk about cheap moves, take a look at SP with their walking katas and spinning DFAs, etc. The only thing that prevents it from being over in .05 seconds is that the sabers do jack for damage (unless you turn on the carefully hidden morerealistic cvar).

And like many other folks, you judge the entire game based on the saber system, as if that's the only type of gameplay that exists.

Each to his own, but still, it sounds like you don't even remember what the regular game was like! Is Movie Battles II only about dueling? If not, then the same logic doesn't apply to that one either. There's much more than just sabering to this game...


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Old 11-12-2005, 12:25 AM   #48
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Yes, you know, you can usually get the Flechette, AKA "Jedi-Killer", and spike your enemies with sabers. In duels, though, not many have the Jedi-Killer in the map. Hey, we could do that... right? j/k



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Old 11-12-2005, 12:34 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyrusticae
Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.
Yeah, that's why I rewrote the saber system for OJP Enhanced.


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Old 11-12-2005, 12:37 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The single player system is NOTHING like the multiplayer saber system. And the SP version is much more random and floaty than you'll see in even the laggiest games. Now if you want to talk about cheap moves, take a look at SP with their walking katas and spinning DFAs, etc. The only thing that prevents it from being over in .05 seconds is that the sabers do jack for damage (unless you turn on the carefully hidden morerealistic cvar).
I think it's due to the sabers automatically bouncing instantanously into an attack after a blade-on-blade impact. That's why the CPU seems to randomly suddenly just chop into you after a block and kills you.


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Old 11-12-2005, 12:53 AM   #51
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Hmm. I never see that, in SP, the opponents can't complain when I Force Push followed by a finishing stab. I'm way nicer in JAMP than JASP.

Edit: Why is there an : evil2 : but not a : evil : ?



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Old 11-12-2005, 02:19 AM   #52
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Because it's evil?

Well, I see it all the time in SP. It's not something I noticed until I played thru SP a couple of times. It's especially obvious when you're playing on Jedi Master difficulty.


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Old 11-12-2005, 02:43 AM   #53
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Actually, it also happens in MP, it is just HELLISHLY rare. Sometimes you block and the weapon goes right through the opponent's head for massive damage.

Red style can do weird block attacks on rare occassions, blocking into a killer lower right to upper left diagonal if you hold the attack button. Staff does something similar. If they go off you've pretty much won due to how deadly they are. But I've never seen any of the other styles do it.


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Old 11-12-2005, 10:42 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorace
Because it's evil?
I mean, there's a evil2 smiley ( ) but not a evil smiley ( :evil: )

Quote:
Originally Posted by LV
Actually, it also happens in MP, it is just HELLISHLY rare. Sometimes you block and the weapon goes right through the opponent's head for massive damage.

Red style can do weird block attacks on rare occassions, blocking into a killer lower right to upper left diagonal if you hold the attack button. Staff does something similar. If they go off you've pretty much won due to how deadly they are. But I've never seen any of the other styles do it.
Oh, I have no doubts. I would be fighting a losing battle if I said that could never happen. What I meant to say was, "I never see wierd blocks because I usually don't let them get close." I run rings around NPC's, they have no brains. I spin the staff a little as I spin in circles... never take more than 30 damage from a lucky hit by my enemy. I could never do that in MP, though. I'd get fragged rather quickly. I'd go into JA to play multiplayer right now, but I am unable to install or play JA.



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Old 11-12-2005, 11:11 AM   #55
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the main thing that is illogical to me is the ridiculous amount of random parries staff/dualies get on normal red swing which is supposed to be the "strong" or "heavy" stance, even when the opponent isnt even facing the incoming saber at the right angle..

In the end, most people online these days in duel servers use single, and do poke/wiggle, which renders the above point moot.
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Old 11-12-2005, 11:36 AM   #56
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I thought Staff was Yellow stance...



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Old 11-12-2005, 11:52 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
I think it's due to the sabers automatically bouncing instantanously into an attack after a blade-on-blade impact. That's why the CPU seems to randomly suddenly just chop into you after a block and kills you.
You're talking about the single player system right? Because that's what I'm talking about. Just making sure.

A lot of people say they prefer the single player system or like this person who denigrates the MP system as being "made for singleplayer" when in fact I don't think he realizes how different the two actually are.

And the MP bots and SP NPCs are totally different. Anway, all my comments above were thinking of the MP saber system as the "default" so I apologize for any confusion or misunderstanding. I don't think we'd be better off using the SP system in MP, by no means!


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Old 11-12-2005, 04:12 PM   #58
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Right. I'm talking about SP but there are elements of this issue in the MP system.


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Old 11-12-2005, 04:29 PM   #59
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Has anybody built a mod that turns the SP combat system into a copy of the MP? Because those who say the Staff is fast hasn't seen it in MP that well. In MP, the whole saber system seems, not slow but... sluggish. You know what I mean?



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Old 11-12-2005, 04:49 PM   #60
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I just play the single player levels in jamp.exe.




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Old 11-12-2005, 04:50 PM   #61
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I'm still in the process of making a CoOp component to OJP.


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Old 11-12-2005, 05:00 PM   #62
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@ZeroX2, can you even do that without mods - oh, wait, yeah, "devmap <insertmaphere>". I'll try that.



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Old 11-12-2005, 05:09 PM   #63
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You don't need /devmap. Just normal /map. Mainly I just play the Zeus Academy Ladder in multiplayer mode.




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Old 11-12-2005, 05:12 PM   #64
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I love that map! I even extracted the music for it to use in my portable CD player (as well as extracted KotOR music ) Maybe I could find somebody to play co-op with, after I brush up my sabering skills. BTW, have you ever killed the Rancors/Alora without cheats? Alora just has too much health, it seems. Ah well, if I ever beat her with no cheats, I should be ready for any human that comes my way.



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Old 11-12-2005, 05:16 PM   #65
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I've beaten them without cheats - it just took a very, very long time. >_>




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Old 11-12-2005, 06:14 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehomicidalegg
the main thing that is illogical to me is the ridiculous amount of random parries staff/dualies get on normal red swing which is supposed to be the "strong" or "heavy" stance, even when the opponent isnt even facing the incoming saber at the right angle..
Funny thing, that. I've stood behind someone who was idling without the chatbox up. He had normal ping. I swing with yellow style. He had staff.

He blocked. He didn't even MOVE to actually block, there was just a flash and he took no damage. I tried two more times, two more blocks.

Pissed, I think did a full crouch sweep. Several block flashes and actual damage hits later, death for him.


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Old 11-12-2005, 06:40 PM   #67
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LV, I have had that happen to me the other way around, only I had chat up, playing on basejamp. I had staff out, and he hit me from the back, fast kill. I was the host, so he didn't last long. I was in chat, and he did hit me several times. This was no accident...



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Old 11-12-2005, 10:01 PM   #68
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...You totally misunderstood what I said. I killed the guy with the staff while he was idling. I will decimate you with or without your chatbox up. The thing is, with chatbox up your avatar doesn't move to block, so that was a legit kill.


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Old 11-12-2005, 11:05 PM   #69
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No, no, I got that. I didn't kick you, I don't think. I made it clear that if nothing else, go around chatters if you can. I wasn't blocking a hall, either, I was on a wall off to the side of a large room. I was trying to resolve an arguement between a Grip-Pusher and someone who thought that wasn't right. Then, this guy hits me once, twice, thrice. I'm dead. NOT COOL. Having fun is one thing, I don't care if I start losing. That's part of the fun. But it is not right to go out of your way to harass and kill a chatting person.

The kill may have been easy, and technically legal under baseja, but NOT legit. If I had been allowed to face him, I would have had a good chance of winning. He was a good Single user, so maybe I could have lost anyway. But, the point is to give your opponent a fair chance. In FFA, when I see someone idling and watching a battle, and I happen to come up from behind. I Force-Push him, jump in front, and hit a key that automatically says "Hello there!" from Ep. III. I then ignite my saber, and wait for him to get up. Either that, or I... engage... any others that come near me. I'm not a weasel "honorz" saberist, but I do give a fighting chance. Literally.



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Old 11-15-2005, 12:55 PM   #70
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I think when L.A. team develop the skills of the saber staff for JA they try to make a midle use weapon, that should have been balanced between the other two 'tipes' of sabers. but wanst this whats happen in fact: the saber staff its the strongest option for new/non skilled users and, badly, the combo cheaters choice.
in single player games the saber staff has a good use, but isnt the best best choice. i use it must because i love the staf looking. but i particular prefer the normal ones in single players since i can use easely the ''grip+saber throw'' on enemies, what take me one more step when using staff.
Multi players:
against bots the staff are better, since i can kill them before hit me on 'strong stance' and defend more easely on others stances. again i use more often because the 'perfect good looking' of a char using a dual staff. but i must confess: make a katar and dispatch 2 bots in same time its very fun too.
i prefer staff agains boots too because the 'grip and throw' of single dont work well agains very strong-wise bots on MP.
against real players, well i must say that i have no internet Mult players fights since my conections its too low, but i used to play a lot on Lan Houses. maybe its because here were i play (South America> Brasil> Minas Gerais> Juiz de Fora) ppl prefer Counter Strike and WarCraft3 then others games, most of the time i confront 'newbie' non-skilled JA players. i aways ask to play 'saber and force only' since i just dont like guns weapons. most of the time i see that ppl on staff are better, even if are non-skilled. the single bladed saberist must be very skilled to actualy win many battles against staff users. in my opnion the single bladed its more good when using force powers combos then in ''saber no-force'' battles. most of the time i weld staff, but when i fight ppl that frequently does katars (these ppl remember my old days in games like Street Fitgher that ppl just dont stop making 'hadukens'...) i prefer change to a single bladed and use 'grip+saber throw' combos, ok isnt the clean way to solve this but, Hey i'm a sith.
im my opinon the staff its comonly chose be cause dont require good train on use, no stance changes (ease battle), and the best ''cheat'' combos. the bad side its the fact that a staff user dont get to skilled in saber combat,they start medium-strong and dont past this with use. in other hand a single bladed get skilled with time, he starts weak (since he doenst know how work propely with the stances) but after a good use he gets realy deadly with these 'stances' changes during a battle (its really fun trick ppl with whatvatack you will do, hehehhe).


--EDITED--
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:56 AM   #71
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stance changers with staff/duals are just as deadly if not more than those with single... especially considering how useless normal blue swings are against dual/staffs, and yellow gets swatted with ease by blocks
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:22 AM   #72
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I stitched to single for a while, and had no problems with the staff. I did, however, find it difficult to defeat dual saber users.

My next 2 cents.



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Old 11-19-2005, 01:38 AM   #73
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It comes down to this:

If you lose to a certain style DEAL WITH IT!!!! You're gonna loose to every style eventually. Its an inevitability. Stop going 'OMFG TEH STAFF R TEH N00B WEPON!!111oneoneeleventybilliondollars!!!' and play the game. And don't say that you're not gonna lose to this style or that style: headshots happen to everyone. Everyone slips. Everyone reacts a second too late. Its a game; its not like your really getting stabbed with a lightsaber. Now I'm leaving. I need to trim my goatee...its uneven and I'm aggravated
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Old 11-19-2005, 10:42 AM   #74
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Excellent point. Nobody can be 100% perfect. I will/do lose to single saberists, and dual saberists, fellow stavers, and even just gunners who I see a little too late. So can ZeroX2, and Lathain Valtiel, and everyone else. Thank you.



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Old 03-07-2006, 02:57 PM   #75
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Since the best duel players is using single, I don't see what the **** the 'anti-staffers' is whining about. They probably don't know how to fight staff=They suck.
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:05 PM   #76
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Zombie Thread!


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Old 03-07-2006, 04:53 PM   #77
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It has been pretty much proven now that staff and dual are broken... I mean, can you really argue with what me and razor put forth? Not really.

Also, the 'best single duelers' have the tendency to cheat with yaw. Which really disqualifies them.


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Old 03-08-2006, 04:04 PM   #78
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oh, so you're one of those "ZOMG POKE NUB!"?
Someone make a thread like that.
And no, even the best 'non wiggler' is le better than staffers.
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Old 03-08-2006, 05:06 PM   #79
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This is a pretty poor argument to be made. Deferences in skill level can overcome any unbalanced game aspect.

Simply put, staffs and duals have a hardcoded advantage in the code. Any farther argument is pretty useless.


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Old 03-08-2006, 05:24 PM   #80
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Oh my God, I leave for a day and a half and see this thread? Come on, it was meant to die. Let's let it, already. I concede that the staves and duels have more raw power than single (though I still say the single gets better range) and I also say this thread needs to die.



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