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Old 12-10-2005, 03:11 PM   #81
Renegade Angel
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wow, this thread went from onbe weird idea to a mindless debate abput porno and movies.


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Old 12-10-2005, 03:20 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renedage Angel
wow, this thread went from onbe weird idea to a mindless debate abput porno and movies.
I'll stop now. I promise.

On-topic:The thing about those two things being wielded isn't that bad, you know.
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Old 12-10-2005, 04:35 PM   #83
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@ Vlad: No, I wasn't angry or anything, it's just funny how off-topic the thread got so fast.

On Topic- Like I said, a blaster AND a saber/ A blaster alone seems un-star wars, but both would just ruin it all.


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Old 12-10-2005, 05:59 PM   #84
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Heh, I don't understand your logic on how blasters are un-Star-Wars, but I agree on the saber+blaster point.




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Old 12-10-2005, 07:28 PM   #85
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Just an opinion here, FWIW.
OK, here's my premise--the SW world still follows most laws of physics. Granted, we can Force Jump 20 meters, Force Lightening people without electrocuting ourselves, Force-guide a thrown lightsaber to the target(s), and other things that completely ignore physics.
However, the fighting still needs to have some realism to it in order for it to be somewhat believable, so I'm going to accept things like Force powers, but have a little harder time accepting less realistic uses of the more 'realistic' type weapons.
Now some of this is based on some personal experience with foils and epees and archery. I haven't actually handled a gun (except waterguns) so I'm going to fall back to the archery experience.
So, the choices for weapon-bearing are, for the purposes of this thread, dual melee/saber, dual ranged, and ranged/saber.
I've fought single and dual foil/epee, and it's a challenge to fight well with one, much less two (it'd probably be easier if I pursued it a lot more often). However, you can use 2 melee weapons with relative ease--it's not hard to keep 2 arms moving at all times, and since you're so close to your opponent, it's not hard to get in a hit with at least one of those swords, unless you're fighting against a fencing master (which I'm not).
Shooting archery requires 2 hands so it's not exactly applicable, but you do have to keep fairly still in order to have the accuracy to hit your target. If you move around, your arrow moves around and misses the target. I'm going to extrapolate to ranged weapons, and say that you also have to hold a gun relatively still in order to hit your target in the right place. Snipers don't run around waving their guns, they stay very still. Real combat is more fluid and automatic weapons take away some of the requirement to remain still in order to hit, but you still have to aim the thing in the right direction, and the farther away you are the more difficult it is to hit if you're moving around. You can shoot 2 ranged weapons at the same time if you're really good, but in that case you're focusing the 2 guns at the same target, and shooting 2 guns does not require a lot of movement, and in fact, the less, the better.
Now here's your experiment for the day. You need a broom stick (or some other long straight object) and a water gun or laser pointer (don't shine this in anyone's eyes!). It's better do do this where you have a lot of room, preferably outside where you can't break anything (trust me, it's really easy to break a lamp or knock over pictures if you swing around a sword inside). Stand up, and with your main hand, sight down your water gun to aim at the very center of a far target. Now, simulating blaster bolt deflection, with your other hand wildly wave around the broomstick in a variety of directions.
Question 1--could you maintain a constant sight on your target while you were moving around, or did your arm movements from your 'sword' throw you off a lot? It's really hard to move one arm around in sudden jerky movements like you'd use to deflect blaster fire and yet keep the rest of your body still.
Question 2--when your 'sword' suddenly moved into your side vision when it was waving around, did you suddenly glance at it, even momentarily? That meant you took your eye off your target, and now you have to re-aim to hit your ranged target properly.
Question 3--now have someone toss some tennis balls or wads of paper or whatever for you to deflect. Could you concentrate on deflecting the balls and yet still keep your eye on the ranged target? It's impossible to focus on the deflection and the ranged target at the same time. Even in the game, it looks like you're deflecting bolts only as you close on a target--it doesn't look like you're deflecting bolts while you're actually close enough to be in combat with an individual.
Yep, I know we're playing Jedi who are unnaturally super-talented, but ranged/saber fighting is really impractical and would jar my sense of 'reality', even for the SW universe. Not to mention that this would require such penalties for use that I agree it would not be as useful as other systems.
I suppose if the devs had everything else covered, they could add this in, but it'd rank in my book somewhere around the level of beast trick--in the game, but not terribly useful. I don't want to just deflect stuff, I want to get in there and stop the shooting altogether. The best way to not get shot is to get rid of your enemies as quickly as possible.
My 2c on this.


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Old 12-10-2005, 07:53 PM   #86
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I think, using a blaster as a offhand weapon is not too weird indeed. Basically you are fighting with a one hand weapon(mainly) with a few shots thrown in.

On the other hand, using a melee weapon offhand is not too bad either. You don't have to actually attack with it, it just gives you a "melee weapon" so enemy don't claim bonus for you being unarmed melee wise. Simple parrying with a melee weapon goes a long way.
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Old 12-11-2005, 04:28 AM   #87
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tht would actually be awesome


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Old 12-11-2005, 07:59 AM   #88
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Jae Onasi FTW!

Excellent post, well done!


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Old 12-11-2005, 10:06 AM   #89
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Agreed.




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Old 12-11-2005, 12:22 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I could go as well and say having female party members that fall at your feet at the first sight of you (e.x. Handmaiden, Visas) in a game=S**t, because having females fall at your feet at the first sight of you=S**t
Thank you for proving me right.
Your reasoning is illogical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Nudity=logic (untrue)
This doesn't have anything to do with anything. I was just demonstrating how your "logical reasoning" is absolutely flawed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Nudity is't an option.
But it could be just an option. You don't have to choose it. Thus the argument that everything is just an option doesn't apply to you.
In the same way, you cannot tell anyone who don't like the blaster/saber combo not to use it because it's just an option.


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Originally Posted by RC 1162
LIAYD, int it clearly mentioned in the rules NOT to discuss porn?
If it's your only argument...

Yes, we can't discuss porn, but that applies to discussion of where you can get porn, talk about porn stars in a movie or describing the latest Jenna Jameson movie.
I was merely making a parallel.

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Originally Posted by RC 1162
and i say YES since a writer mentioned it in a book called Jedi Trial. in it, a rodian fighting on the Jedi side takes down a whole bunch of droids with a vibroblade in one hand and a blaster in the other. im not lying.
And that means lightsaber blaster bolt deflection + blaster how?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RC 1162
and suppose you are a Jedi who happens to have a blaster and a whole contingent of enemy troops are hounding you. would you want to jump in the middle and get hacked to pieces by melee blades or blasted to crisp by cannons? obviously no. if you have a lightsaber in your off hand, you can just deflect all incoming bolts and pick them off one by one with the blaster.
First off, if that was the case, considering they had melee weapons to hack me to pieces, they would split up into two groups, one keeping me occupied by shooting at me and the other rushing up to get me in close range. This litterally keeps me from using my blaster.

Or, the other plausible option would be to use one saber, stand back and deflect all the shots on the charging enemies. Then my blaster is useless.


Jae Onasi is awesome I'd like to add that you can't expect to hit much holding a simple handgun in one hand unless you're pretty close.


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Old 12-11-2005, 12:22 PM   #91
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Old 12-11-2005, 12:31 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Thank you for proving me right.
Your reasoning is illogical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
This doesn't have anything to do with anything. I was just demonstrating how your "logical reasoning" is absolutely flawed.
*Sits back and doesn't consider lukeiamyourdad seriously. And starts wondering if lukeiamyourdad has any moments when he doesn't make a fuss bigger than Vladimir does*

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And that means lightsaber blaster bolt deflection + blaster how?
Penalties are your friend.
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Old 12-11-2005, 12:36 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Penalties are your friend.
No, his argument is that someone already used a vibroblade and a blaster at the same time in the Star Wars universe. However, as far as I know, vibroblades are not lightsabers.


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Old 12-11-2005, 12:48 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
No, his argument is that someone already used a vibroblade and a blaster at the same time in the Star Wars universe. However, as far as I know, vibroblades are not lightsabers.
Penalties still remain. You don't have much chance when you use a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time. But still, some people (me for instance [since I am stupid. Yes I wrote it so that you or anyone else won't write it]) will hold their teeth thogether and still use it.
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Old 12-11-2005, 01:43 PM   #95
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One question to everyone....who the hay likes using guns in these games? You're a freakin Jedi, guns are inferior to you....
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Old 12-11-2005, 02:07 PM   #96
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Thanks for the compliments!


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Old 12-11-2005, 03:15 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Viggo
One question to everyone....who the hay likes using guns in these games? You're a freakin Jedi, guns are inferior to you....


...




RedHawke, please restrain me...




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Old 12-11-2005, 06:04 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Penalties still remain. You don't have much chance when you use a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time. But still, some people (me for instance [since I am stupid. Yes I wrote it so that you or anyone else won't write it]) will hold their teeth thogether and still use it.

What the hell does that have to do with his argument?

He's not talking about penalties.

Keep it on subject please. We already discussed penalties and such.


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Old 12-12-2005, 02:33 AM   #99
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Quote:
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Penalties are your friend.
Bwahahahahahaha!!! Stop it Vlad you are killing me!

Bonuses are your freind Vlad, not penalties! ROFL!!!

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Originally Posted by Mono_Giganto
RedHawke, please restrain me...
Ok! *Restrains Mono...*


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Old 12-12-2005, 01:34 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Viggo
One question to everyone....who the hay likes using guns in these games? You're a freakin Jedi, guns are inferior to you....
Not if you don't have a lightsaber like in TSL. You could use a vibro blade but what fun is that?

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Old 12-12-2005, 02:46 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIAYD
And that means lightsaber blaster bolt deflection + blaster how?
i was just proving my point that you can fight with a melee weapon in one hand and a blaster in the other. Unless i am greatly mistaken, i am sure that lightsabers are classifed indirectly into the melee group.

and vlad, would you please stop the 'penalties' crap?


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Old 12-12-2005, 05:16 PM   #102
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Quote:
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i was just proving my point that you can fight with a melee weapon in one hand and a blaster in the other. Unless i am greatly mistaken, i am sure that lightsabers are classifed indirectly into the melee group.
Be careful here. You're forgetting the main reason why people actually want this: deflecting blaster bolts while shooting with a blaster.

Very different from just holding a sword in one hand in case of emergency.


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Old 12-13-2005, 02:11 AM   #103
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I could see holding a melee weapon as a backup, in which case you'd be fighting with only 1 system at a time, not both melee and ranged at the same time. My long post applied specifically to using a ranged weapon in one hand while at the same time deflecting blaster fire with a lightsaber in the other hand. Now, I could imagine throwing a lightsaber, and squeezing off a few rounds while you waited for the saber to return, but that's still using one system at a time, not both at the exact same time.
And on a tangent, I could suddenly imagine a Jolee story involving a young and foolish apprentice who throws a lightsaber, shoots a couple of rounds with a blaster, and doesn't quite get out of the way of the returning LS....
"Here we were on Coruscant, and I get saddled with training this green apprentice some lightsaber skills. He grew up on T'lon where they all cut their teeth on blasters, and he thinks his souped-up Baragwin disruptor pistol is the greatest thing since sliced tookie worms. Of course, he thinks he knows everything about his new lightsaber, too, but does he listen to me telling him to always watch for the returning saber? Well, we end up over in the Eloni cantina--great food, better Juma juice, they need a new Bith accordian player--and we walk in on just the biggest cantina fight I've seen in a decade. Blaster bolts flying, people getting tossed over tables, good Juma getting wasted--good challenge for an apprentice Jedi to deal with. Well, about 4, maybe 5 Rodians see us and decide we're going to ruin their fun and they start shooting. Junior Jedi throws his saber--beautiful distance, nice arc, got about 3 of those Rodians, not bad for an apprentice. But then the blaster-brain thinks he's got enough time to shoot the other 2 with that crazy disruptor. He gets a few rounds off, and forgets about the saber for a moment. Suddenly, it's flying around crazy, and I had to duck and roll to get out of the way. He doesn't see it return til it's in his face. He ducks, but not quite fast enough, and manages to cut off the tip of his nose. That crotchety Vrook chewed me out for letting that happen. Actually, I think it improved that apprentice's appearance. What were we talking about again?"


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Old 12-13-2005, 02:40 AM   #104
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^^^^
Very good story there Jae! I can just hear ol' Jolee telling that story too!


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Old 12-13-2005, 12:50 PM   #105
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Bendak Starkiller anyone?

Did anyone notice that Bendak Starkiller can use both vibroblade and blaster. He didn't use them at the same tine offcourse, but he can. I think it will be cool to have ability to use blaster and melee/lightsaber.

offcourse you didnt use them at the same time. Imagine you are jedi consular/sentinel who didn't have force jump. your force are depleted so you cant use saber throw and you are running out of grenades. lots of enemies 10m ahead. you shoot them with your cassus fett's pistol. when they getting closer you slashed them with your lightsaber. you can do those things without have to go to the equip screen and change weapons. Yeah, I know, Kotor2 have "switch weapon config" feature. but if different than using blaster and melee/lighsaber at the same time. different animation, different fun, different gore, etc.

oh, and i want blood and dismemberment on kotor like on JK2/JK3. Imagine your opponent have 40 VP, when his VP goes to 10 or lower, you cut his arms or legs and final blows to the head. hehehehehehahahahha (Darth Sidious laugh when fighting with Yoda and throw his saber).
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:56 PM   #106
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Bendak didn't use a vibroblade and a blaster at the same time. He switched the sword for the blaster in the exact same way you can do it in K2. (Many Npcs do this.)




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Old 12-14-2005, 01:12 AM   #107
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Grief, how did this topic get to three pages?

Gotta say, using a Lightsabre in one hand and a Blaster in the other is a terrible idea.

Lucas has already said that Jedi use Lightsabre's (unless they don't have access to one) because they are terrific in close-range combat and can also protect the Jedi in ranged combat.

Apparently, the whole point of forcing the Jedi to fight hand-to-hand is that they must really look at and see the person they are trying to kill, so that it doesn't become easy or impersonal.


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Old 12-14-2005, 01:43 AM   #108
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Quote:
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Gotta say, using a Lightsabre in one hand and a Blaster in the other is a terrible idea.
Bloody hell, we agree! Take a picture



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Apparently, the whole point of forcing the Jedi to fight hand-to-hand is that they must really look at and see the person they are trying to kill, so that it doesn't become easy or impersonal.
I think that you're on to something here. It could be part of the concept of sophisticated warriors and honor. We know Obi-Wan would never take a blaster and fight with it unless necessary.
There's honor in battle and facing your opponent in melee is a great test of strength.


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Old 12-14-2005, 12:04 PM   #109
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Bendak did use both

@Mono_Giganto: Bendak did use both vibroblade and pistol. I know because I often loading my savegame to have re-match with bendak over 40 times or more because I think the duel ring with bendak is the coolest encounter on Kotor (not because I lose, well, maybe for the first 5 encounters). Your argument that Bendak switching weapon is also true though, yes he shoot us when we far and switch to vibroblade when we closer. But if you choose run & guerilla tactic when fighting him (running around so that he can't grenade or shoot you), sometimes he will keep the vibroblade on his hand and extract his blaster and shoot you while still holding the blade. the way he's holding the blaster when shooting is crossing-hands, "sniper shoot" stance, but the difference is he stil holding the blade. Try it yourself. I hope I can provide you with a pic sometimes later. No... my eyes are clear, not false, and I've seen it countless times.

Sorry for little off-topic here. Back on-topic: while I agree to have the ability to hold ranged and melee/saber at the same time, I didn't agree if we can deflect blaster bolt while shooting (at the same time). that's just stupid. even when you are holding a single or dual lightsaber, you can't deflect blaster bolt when slashing an enemy while getting blaster shot from another enemies from around you.
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:35 PM   #110
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that happes when the game wants to do a weapon switch at the same time as an "attack" occures... yes i have seen it too but they dont use both at the same time.. its just buggy graphics
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:53 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XA-R01
sometimes he will keep the vibroblade on his hand and extract his blaster and shoot you while still holding the blade. the way he's holding the blaster when shooting is crossing-hands, "sniper shoot" stance, but the difference is he stil holding the blade. Try it yourself. I hope I can provide you with a pic sometimes later. No... my eyes are clear, not false, and I've seen it countless times.

That's called a bug

I've done it 18 times and I have no idea what you're talking about.


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Old 12-14-2005, 02:43 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
That's called a bug

I've done it 18 times and I have no idea what you're talking about.
It doesn't matter. It is so irrelevant to the original post.

The idea was to see if people thought it was feasible to wield a saber in the off hand to deflect blasters, then shoot with a ranged weapon.

True sabarists, of course, would think "How silly" and "what's the pupose?"

Others would say, "fine, let's try it. It's just a game".
I guess it's up to the development team, but, from what I'm hearing, I doubt this option will be utilized.

...at least in this (next) game.


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Old 12-14-2005, 03:16 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XA-R01
@Mono_Giganto: Bendak did use both vibroblade and pistol. I know because I often loading my savegame to have re-match with bendak over 40 times or more because I think the duel ring with bendak is the coolest encounter on Kotor (not because I lose, well, maybe for the first 5 encounters). Your argument that Bendak switching weapon is also true though, yes he shoot us when we far and switch to vibroblade when we closer. But if you choose run & guerilla tactic when fighting him (running around so that he can't grenade or shoot you), sometimes he will keep the vibroblade on his hand and extract his blaster and shoot you while still holding the blade. the way he's holding the blaster when shooting is crossing-hands, "sniper shoot" stance, but the difference is he stil holding the blade. Try it yourself. I hope I can provide you with a pic sometimes later. No... my eyes are clear, not false, and I've seen it countless times.
Oh, believe me, I have tried, and I am aware of the game's capabilities, and if at any point he had one of each in his hand, it was definitely a bug.

And heh, I'm no honorable saberist or anything. Anyone who has known me at HL for more than 5 seconds knows I like using blasters. I just don't like the balance issue that will take place utilizing both weapons at once, a balance issue which will not be fixed by penalties.




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