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Old 12-07-2005, 03:56 AM   #1
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Do you want KOTOR to go next-gen?

Personally, I'm against it. The KOTOR grphics engine is okay, and could use some improvement in the textures, but it's fine apart from that. Not to mention how the previous two games have used the same engine... using a next-generation one would seem rather out of place, and if they scrap the D20 system (I'm for keeping it), it just won't feel like KOTOR at all.

Thoughts?


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Old 12-07-2005, 06:33 AM   #2
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Hell yeah they shoudl go next gen...
The engine can stay the same...or use a similar, like the Jade Empire engine.
Most PC's have already surpassed the X-Box 360 in power, (Call of Duty 2 looks worse on the X-Box 360 then on PC) and you want Kotor 3 to be X-Box game?

With all the respect, the engine was good in 1998, but we live in 2005!
I think they should really do something about the rubbish: Collision Detection (standing in walls), the graphics (adapted for X-Box, so they are ugly), the lenght of gameplay.

PS: I think Mass Effect uses a similar engine too...and that game is awesome...

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Old 12-07-2005, 07:17 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Personally, I'm against it. The KOTOR grphics engine is okay, and could use some improvement in the textures, but it's fine apart from that. Not to mention how the previous two games have used the same engine... using a next-generation one would seem rather out of place, and if they scrap the D20 system (I'm for keeping it), it just won't feel like KOTOR at all.

Thoughts?
Exactly!
Besides, if it does go next-gen it'll play havoc with modding as we'll have to use separate sets of tools, development of K1 and TSL tools will stop so priority will switch to the KIII tools...

Also, learning an unfamiliar engine again is hardly fun, and there is nothing wrong with the graphics!

They're a damn sight good enough to make a good game with.



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Old 12-07-2005, 11:02 AM   #4
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I think their go next gen because their most likly going to roll with the times and it would be intresting to see how it turns out


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Old 12-07-2005, 12:29 PM   #5
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I prefer having a solid storyline, more dialogue and role play options over pretty graphics but I think that they will certainly go next gen.

If they were following that logic, we would still be playing games on a commodore 64 and the like (the good thing is that we wouldn't need those pricey graphic gards). They want to appeal to a new audience too, not just the old fans. They already got criticized for the outdated graphics in K2...

Unfortunately, making this game easy to mod is not part of their plans.

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Old 12-07-2005, 01:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
Hell yeah they shoudl go next gen...
The engine can stay the same...or use a similar, like the Jade Empire engine.
Most PC's have already surpassed the X-Box 360 in power, (Call of Duty 2 looks worse on the X-Box 360 then on PC) and you want Kotor 3 to be X-Box game?
If you like Jade Empire then play it and what's wrong with the XBox? I'm happy with it and I'm certainly not going to spend $200+ for the 360.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
With all the respect, the engine was good in 1998, but we live in 2005!
I think they should really do something about the rubbish: Collision Detection (standing in walls), the graphics (adapted for X-Box, so they are ugly), the lenght of gameplay.
So what if we live in 2005. Just because it's new and improved doesn't mean that it's always better. Besides, I like the original game engine. I play both for PC and Xbox and at times my Xbox runs smoother than my brand new PC. Personally I find it amusing to have Bao-dur's remote float right where his head is. Mostly I would rather see improvement on length of gameplay.

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Old 12-14-2005, 08:29 PM   #7
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I think there is no doubt that any future KotOR game will be built for a next-gen console. I'm pretty sure I've stated this in other threads but why would any game developer/publisher release new games for outdated consoles? Does anyone know of any developer that plans to release titles for the XBox only now that the XBOX 360 is in the marketplace? None that I've heard of. Sales of games for the PS2 and GameCube are also going to go down because gamers using those consoles are going to wait for the PS3 and the Revolution so they can take advantage of the higher performing hardware.

So IMO, it's not a question of whether or not the next KotOR will be released for a next generation console. It's a question of what kind of programmatic changes will be made to the next KotOR to accommodate as well as take advantage of the new multi-processor consoles. I don't think we can expect the next KotOR before the end of 2006 and the next gen consoles will all be in full swing by then. If LA does indeed have KotOR 3 in the works then they are already planning to release it on a next gen console (and hopefully for PC too ).


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Old 12-14-2005, 08:40 PM   #8
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The engine should stay the same. The engine is what makes it fell like a KotOR game for me.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:07 PM   #9
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Truthfully, I really don't care, although the animations and some cinematics should improve (as well as the textures I have to agree with that). The only thing that I think is required with this engine is: More and bigger areas and more interaction with the enviorment. If they make these two even with the same engine; I am happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
I prefer having a solid storyline, more dialogue and role play options over pretty graphics but I think that they were certainly go next gen.
Well, they will give us a solid storyline, more dialogue and role play options. Be it Bioware or Obsidian, we will get it, no matter what engine it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
They already got criticized for the outdated graphics in K2...
I don't think that it's outdated, it looks nice if you ask me. But now that I think of it... KOTOR 1 did look better in small amounts. Must be because of the rush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Wan
So IMO, it's not a question of whether or not the next KotOR will be released for a next generation console.
If they do, then they should be boycotted. I am getting really mad with the fact that they are making everything for consoles while not giving PC users the pleasure.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:31 PM   #10
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K3 Definitely needs a new graphics engine, the K1 engine is pretty outdated. They can stick with the basic gameplay mechanics, dialogs, quests, combat, ect. That part of the game wouldn't need too much work to intruduce a new graphics engine.

Fundimentally KotOR is a graphically upgraded NWN, the modding aspects between the games isn't that much different. So if we did get a new graphics engine the only part of modding that would be severely set back would likey only be the modeling side. Besides figuring out how everything works is part of the fun of modding.

As long as the basic gameplay isn't changed a new engine would be welcome.
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Old 12-14-2005, 10:24 PM   #11
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Should K3 be next gen? Absolutely.

I would like to see a revamp of the engine, but no so much that it completely changes how combat is handled.

Aside from that, as long as it's backward compatible with xbox, I can't see a problem.


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Old 12-14-2005, 11:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I don't think that it's outdated, it looks nice if you ask me. But now that I think of it... KOTOR 1 did look better in small amounts. Must be because of the rush.
Huh ? Compare TSL with pretty much anything that has been release this year. Looks pretty outdated.


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Old 12-15-2005, 02:44 AM   #13
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As long as the basic gameplay isn't changed a new engine would be welcome.
Quoted for emphasis!


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Old 12-15-2005, 03:57 AM   #14
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I'd love it on that nintendo revolution console. Imagine using the controller as a lightsaber...
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:33 AM   #15
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Huh ? Compare TSL with pretty much anything that has been release this year. Looks pretty outdated.
True. I also noticed that TSL's graphics were worse than KotOR. The best example of this is HK's 'mouth'. In KotOR is it clearly defined, yet in TSL it's all smudged.


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Old 12-15-2005, 08:28 AM   #16
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I would like much better graphics for KOTOR 3 - however saying that, I am not really expecting or wanting graphics on a par with the Unreal 3 engine if it will mean a detriment to gameplay. The graphics in KOTOR 2 are not that bad (I personally think they are better that Price of Persia 3), but I get a bit tired with games that just use the same graphics continously (for 2 games in a row, thats fine, 3 is pushing it, especially if the 3rd is released a few years down the line). I would also like to see (as already stated) a much more vibrant, and interactive environment, as well as each map being much much larger - think of sizes larger than the original Deus Ex. This may mean developing the game more for a PC than a console. The RPG element is fine at the moment I think - although I would like to see more Force Powers and attack moves - like NWN. Also, I know that this is a serious longshot (and really early to ask) - but do you think that their will be any possibility of a toolset such as the Aurora NWN toolset for KOTOR 3?

That is all I can think of at the moment, and I apologise for going more into a wishlist than only graphical wishes .
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:24 PM   #17
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I think it definitely will be next-gen, but I would rather it not. The storyline and gameplay was good enough to make up for OK graphics, and I think it still will be for K3.


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Old 12-16-2005, 07:38 AM   #18
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@ Jm12:
Duh :s off course the storyline goes first. But the thread is about: Do you want to see Kotor 3 next gen. T3-m3 won't become a toaster in K3 :s

But i was talking about graphics.
If you us e terminal, look at the animation >< you see your hands floating in air...
Also, the collision detection (walking through wallas etc) could be better.

And yes, Jade Empire is good. But Jade Empie uses an even further improved Kotor engine.

I never said you have to buy the X-360 :s and face it:
You wouldn't play Halo if it was 16-bit, would you? Kotor 1 & 2 use the Oddesey Engine, and it's old. It has to be replaced, maybe by the new Mass Effect engine? That one looked fine..

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Old 12-16-2005, 11:32 AM   #19
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Damn, I was hoping for KotOR III for N64...


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Old 12-16-2005, 11:42 AM   #20
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Damn, I was hoping for KotOR III for N64...
So you're saying it won't be on the Sega Genesis either?
DANG IT!!!!


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Old 12-16-2005, 11:52 AM   #21
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well, technically they could just add features to the current graphics engine, like support for Shader 3.0, real-mapping (the game already supports bump-mapping, although it wasn't put to much use), and support for much higher resolution textures. the difference would be putting them to use and streamlining the 3D engine code so things run much faster.

but it would probably be much easier to take the current RPG-enigine and add that to an existing next-gen 3D engine like the Unreal 3 engine.

just my two pennies.


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Old 12-16-2005, 10:56 PM   #22
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So they should update an old engine instead of using a new one?

Right...


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Old 12-16-2005, 11:02 PM   #23
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What? He said keep the RPG engine, change the 3D one.
So that equals with keeping an old engine how?


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Old 12-17-2005, 12:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
With all the respect, the engine was good in 1998, but we live in 2005!
I think they should really do something about the rubbish: Collision Detection (standing in walls), the graphics (adapted for X-Box, so they are ugly), the lenght of gameplay.
I beg to differ. I still enjoy the old Infinity Engine games, and wouldn't even hesitate for a second to buy a new game made in 2006 that had that style of game play or graphics as long as the story and game were very similar to those games.

In other words, I don't buy this "it's 2005, not year X" argument because what makes a RPG a great game is the story, gameplay and characters. Not the graphics.


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Old 12-17-2005, 12:05 AM   #25
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What sells games are graphics. They have to sell it to more people. Besides, eye candy isn't bad. You get more then just good story for your money.


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Old 12-17-2005, 02:15 AM   #26
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I think NG will be better for modding in the long run, modding might be slower at first but with a "level up" there will probably be a huge difference in the variety that can be attained (for example, stinger's comment about Unreal, they make level editors don't they), not to mention the performance side of things, even Half Life 2 runs better, and that's with gravity gun flinging stuff everywhere

I had a lot more to say, but forgot by the time I finished reading the thread, go figure.
But simply, what I want for KIII is the same play, with ten times the amount of anything optional in the previous versions, more modding options, visuals superior to previews from games coming out over a year from now, and a slick coat of lubricant on everything


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Old 12-17-2005, 02:21 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stingerhs
but it would probably be much easier to take the current RPG-enigine and add that to an existing next-gen 3D engine like the Unreal 3 engine.
I have no programming skills whatsoever so what I am about to say may not be real intelligent but...
If the next KotOR uses the Odyssey engine (which I'm quite happy with) I would still want the devs to make it able to take advantage of multiple processors, a.k.a. multi-threaded support. But from what I've read multi-threaded programming requires a significant change to the way game programmers currently code. So I'm not sure if revamping the existing game engine would be better than starting from scratch. Of course if any of you programmer types out there want to shed some more light on this then please do. But I do know I want the next KotOR to be able to greatly, if not fully, utilize multiple processors.


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Old 12-17-2005, 06:08 AM   #28
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It's only my opinion :s

Look...
I also have Baldurs Gate lying next to me, and Warcraft 3...
But you can buy a computer for 500 euro's that's 3 gigaherz :s
That means you can start up Kotor 2 three times...

I think most people here have a High-End pc..
So why wouldn't they improve the graphics :s
They created the both Kotor's for the X-Box first, and we had to live with the graphics. (THey weren't bad, but after seeing Elder Scrolls Oblivion..)

I agree they should keep the same D&D rulesset. But just inprove the graphics and some little stuff. Maybe adding the Havov-physics engine?

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Old 12-17-2005, 06:18 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
PS: I think Mass Effect uses a similar engine too...and that game is awesome...
ME uses the Unreal 3 engine.

One Q: do people who say change the engine mean change the graphics engine or the underlaying mechanics engine?

It would be best to keep the mechanics engine and replace the graphics engine IMO.
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Old 12-17-2005, 07:18 AM   #30
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We mean,
Better graphics, but same D&D system.

Mass Effect is still controlled as Kotor, although it uses the Unreal 3 engine.

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Old 12-17-2005, 11:35 AM   #31
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I for one am all for better graphics but if someone would be kind enough to explain what graphics engine and game engine KotOR and TSL use? I thought the Odyssey engine the games use covered both game mechanics and graphics. But from what y'all are saying they might be different and I wasn't aware of that.

To summarize:
- Yes, I want the next KotOR to be next gen, meaning I want it to be a multi-threaded app able to take advantage of multiple processors (up to 4).
- Yes, I want to keep the d20 combat system that allows pausing of combat and queueing of commands to one's party members.
- Yes, I want better graphics too.

I want... I want... I want... and then I want some more!


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Old 12-17-2005, 01:06 PM   #32
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Well

An engine mainly makes the graphics. How the gameplay works is variable.
Example: Mass Effect is the new Bioware game. It has fenomenal graphics, and is an Rpg. But it uses the Unreal 3 engine, though it's not a shooter.

The engine just makes the graphics.
Baldurs Gate uses exactly the same rules as kotor, though the graphics are totally different.

What i (and others) mean to say is: Dump the Oddesey engine, get like...something cool like the Unreal 3 or something (Even source is possible, see Vampire the Masquerade ). Then implent our beloved D20 system, and make a game that will be legendary.

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Old 12-17-2005, 01:11 PM   #33
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I would like it to go next-gen. Even if I may not get it for 360, if it comes out, I will get it for PC.


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Old 12-17-2005, 02:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Wan
I for one am all for better graphics but if someone would be kind enough to explain what graphics engine and game engine KotOR and TSL use? I thought the Odyssey engine the games use covered both game mechanics and graphics. But from what y'all are saying they might be different and I wasn't aware of that.
well, the term 'engine' is a by word for a fundamental process used by a program to calculate a set of data. with video games, for example, you have graphics engines, physics engines, and gameplay engines. a gameplay engine is essentially what controls how the user interacts overall with the program according to a set of rules, and thus, it is the most important aspect.

the graphics engine, on the other hand, has one sole purpose: to render on screen what needs to be rendered according to preset conditions (the map) and what is interactively occurring on-screen as defined by the gameplay engine (other characters, sparks, weapon fire, etc). and it is possible to interchange the graphics engines with a different one as long as the new engine is somewhat reworked to conform to the current gameplay engine.

in the case of the Odyssey engine, the term 'engine' is referring to the RPG and the graphics engines that are unified under a single program. and it wouldn't be difficult to seperate the two as long as the programmers from Bioware programmed it properly (in other words, the code is split into a lot of different modules and subroutines to get a bit more technical).

hope that helps.


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Old 12-17-2005, 03:34 PM   #35
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Thanks stinger!

So let me see if I got this straight.

> KotOR & TSL use what I will now refer to (for my own mental well-being) as Bioware's Odyssey engine suite.

> The Odyssey engine suite contains three game engines; one for gameplay, one for physics, and one for graphics.

> If BioWare designed the Odyssey engine suite "correctly" then its graphics engine could be replaced with an out-of-suite graphics engine (like Unreal 3). However the core gameplay engine would still be avalable for use and thus the beloved or much-maligned (depending on your PPOV) d20 combat system could still be used in the next KotOR. Well, that is if the next KotOR uses the Odyssey engine suite at all.


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Old 12-17-2005, 05:44 PM   #36
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So long as the gameplay and story are there I don't care what the graphics look llike.
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:22 AM   #37
Darca Lar
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Im for it, although it would be awhile before i even could get a 360, so I'd have to wait to get K3.


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