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View Poll Results: Do you support the Palestinians' election of HAMAS officials?
Totally 2 8.33%
Kind of 3 12.50%
Not really 4 16.67%
Absolutely not 9 37.50%
Don't care 6 25.00%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: HAMAS dominates Palestinian parliament
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
And what proof do you have that they aren't militants?
The fact that I saw some people I knew innocently gunned down by Israeli forces simply for being Palestini. Children coming home from a day of schooling only to be shot once they reach the streets simply out of reaction for a Palestini bombing an empty military establishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
These rampaging Palestinians are terrorists. Not to us, and they haven't flown planes into buildings, but they are terrorizing the Israeli people
You really are an ignorant child, aren't you?

First, not every Palestinian is a terrorist. Second, they are not if they are attacking legitimate targets. Third, not everyone is a militant extremist hell bent on seeing every Israeli irradicated.

Many just want their homes back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
And it would be much less if the Palestinians acted like human beings.
Get an education. Most Palestini's don't have weaponry capable of rivaling tanks and highly armored aircraft. Guerrilla tactics are kind of the only option.

Once again, your ignorance blinds you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
THAT is why we should support Israel in its quest for peace.
I suggest you go to the area in question. It's easy to support Israel when you view them as some innocent party. Truth is they are infact, very much, the bad guy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
So there's a group of pro-Israelis. Your point is...?
What's your point about a pro-Palestini group?


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Old 02-02-2006, 08:03 AM   #42
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First off:
Since the beginning of the Intifada (2000) to April 9th, 2005:
* 3,225 Palestinians killed by Israelis (3,135 by military in the territories, 54 by military inside Israel, 34 by settlers in the territories)
* 950 Israelis killed by Palestinians (431 inside Israel, 218 settlers, 218 soldiers on duty)
Source: B'tselem, BBC [1]
(figures vary over the years, but are roughly similar to this in proportion
more detail: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4294502.stm )

Of course, all sides dispute the other's figures, but on the whole if you look at most sets of figures then the number of deaths is always either roughly equal or weighted towards more palestinians. Of course, many palestinians killed are defined as "militants". But many israelis killed are army or armed settlers.

All i'm trying to point out here is that this isn't simply a case of a one sided slaughter of israelis.

-----

My opinion on the palestinian's tactics is that attacking purely civilian targets is wrong.

However using suicide bombers and "terrorist" tactics when you are essentially in a war, against a much superior enemy, is a valid appoach. But only against military/armed targets.

I remember a crappy hollywood movie starring patrick swayze in which the russians invaded the US and a group of kids "heroically" fought a gurilla war against the occupying forces by ambushing their patrols and bombing their depots.
In that they were the heroic freedom fighters standing up against the occupying forces. But then of course they were white skinned, blonde and clean cut.

However one can see, if not condone, why after 20 years of attmpting to fight back against an overwhealming military occupying force the palestinians might get desperate enough to start hitting civilian targets. And it did bring attention to their plight from a world that wouldn't otherwise have cared.

--

It isn't merely jerusalem that is in dispute. The whole israeli nation was essentially created out of "nothing" after WW2. Unfortunately that "nothing" happened to belong to other people at the time. Which is why the palestinians want the whole nation back, not just half of jerusalem.

Now obviously that is very unlikely to every happen... so a lot of moderates on both sides (and most independent nations) have settled on a half-and-half share.
Getting the extremists on either side to agree to that is tricky though, as they are now set in their ways, and sure of their own righteousness. And gettng the fighting to stop long enough for everyone to calm down is a job in itself when any little action can trigger a restart.

Frankly though, if the US would stop funding israel (both sides infact), then they would have much more of an incentive to reach a deal.

---

IMHO the UN should make jerusalem some form of internationally policed "neutral zone". If the people of the middle ages could (at least for a hundred years or so) manage to make jerusalem an open city to both religions, you would think that "more civilised" people of our generation should be able to manage something similar.



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Old 02-02-2006, 08:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by toms
I remember a crappy hollywood movie starring patrick swayze in which the russians invaded the US and a group of kids "heroically" fought a gurilla war against the occupying forces by ambushing their patrols and bombing their depots.
In that they were the heroic freedom fighters standing up against the occupying forces. But then of course they were white skinned, blonde and clean cut.
Not to mention that our revolutionists (like the minute men) fought a guerilla war against the British to gain our independence.
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:03 AM   #44
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The fact that I saw some people I knew innocently gunned down by Israeli forces simply for being Palestini. Children coming home from a day of schooling only to be shot once they reach the streets simply out of reaction for a Palestini bombing an empty military establishment.
You have quite effectively proven there are injustices on both sides. But what you said says nothing of Palestini acts.

Quote:
You really are an ignorant child, aren't you?
I'm not going to waste my intellect refuting such a poor attempt to reduce my credibility. I'm simply going to say you are wrong, and that perhaps you're getting angry for reasons other than my "ignorance".

Quote:
First, not every Palestinian is a terrorist.
Was there a crucial typo in my post? Did I accidentally insinuate that all Palestinians are rampaging terrorists? NO! I said the rampaging Palestinians are terrorists. NOWHERE did I say that all of them rampage.

Quote:
Second, they are not if they are attacking legitimate targets.
There is no problem with them attacking legitimate targets. Children are not legitimate targets. That's all I meant to say in that part of my post.

Quote:
Third, not everyone is a militant extremist hell bent on seeing every Israeli irradicated.
Again, I already know that. You baically repeated yourself to make three points instead of two.

Quote:
Many just want their homes back.
Fine. Let them do that the right way.

Quote:
Get an education.
I am in the process of doing so. However, I do not go to school at Brainwashing Academy for Future Liberals, so I'm afraid the results of my education will not be a sudden agreement with you. Calling me stupid because I disagree with you will get you nowhere.

Quote:
Most Palestini's don't have weaponry capable of rivaling tanks and highly armored aircraft. Guerrilla tactics are kind of the only option.
if the "only" tactic is to act like animals (again, not all of them, but a sizable chunk of them!) then I can't say I'm impressed. And if they are making suicide bombs... well, what if they bided their time, using temporary peace to build up anti-tank rockets, anti-aircraft guns, and the like? It would be more efficient than what they're doing now. Maybe it just galls them to stop fighting for a minute or two to consider basic tactics.

Quote:
Once again, your ignorance blinds you.
Once again, your mouth deafens you.

Quote:
I suggest you go to the area in question. It's easy to support Israel when you view them as some innocent party. Truth is they are infact, very much, the bad guy.
The Israelis have commited far fewer atrocities than we have. And why should I call them the bad guy? Because you say so? Israel is a good nation, but it is populated by fallible humans. Noone is perfect on this Earth. I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who didn't commit some sort of act that was unlawful. However, the violence the PLO has caused FAR outweighs the Israeli violence. Sharon has even allowed half of Jerusalem to go to Palestine, in an effort to quell violence. Instead, the war is intensifying! Makes it crystal clear which nation is rational and which one is not.

Quote:
What's your point about a pro-Palestini group?
I wasn't speaking to you. I want to hear what Tyrion has to say.

Quote:
First off:
Since the beginning of the Intifada (2000) to April 9th, 2005:
* 3,225 Palestinians killed by Israelis (3,135 by military in the territories, 54 by military inside Israel, 34 by settlers in the territories)
* 950 Israelis killed by Palestinians (431 inside Israel, 218 settlers, 218 soldiers on duty)
I have not before seen these numbers, but I have no real reason to dispute them. However, this doesn't prove that Israel has commited atrocities. The USA has killed a significantly large portion of terrorists in the middle east. If you think that makes us the bad guy, simply because we are doing better in the war, then you need some schooling. *Looks pointedly at ShadowTemplar*

My point was not that the PLO has killed more, it was that they PLO is less than humane overall in it's methods.

Quote:
All i'm trying to point out here is that this isn't simply a case of a one sided slaughter of israelis.
OK. Point well taken.

Quote:
My opinion on the palestinian's tactics is that attacking purely civilian targets is wrong.
This sounds perfectly rational. I see no way that anyone can dispute that. If someone does try to say that it's OK to attack civilians, I'm done replying to them.

Quote:
However using suicide bombers and "terrorist" tactics when you are essentially in a war, against a much superior enemy, is a valid appoach. But only against military/armed targets.
Saying nothing of the wasted men when they blow themselves up, I don't overall approve of terrorist tactics, but bombs are used by the US, and it's fair that they can use them as well. But using them against civilians, as you said, is wrong.

Quote:
It isn't merely jerusalem that is in dispute. The whole israeli nation was essentially created out of "nothing" after WW2. Unfortunately that "nothing" happened to belong to other people at the time. Which is why the palestinians want the whole nation back, not just half of jerusalem.
Not in dispute. But Jerusalem is a holy city to two religions, and therefore it tends to become the center of the conflict. But let's look at it from a survival perspective: If Israel loses, the entire civilization is gone. Ka-put. Wiped off. If the PLO is defeated, they don't stand to lose further territory. And they do have another holy city (Mecca) and now they have half of another one, while the Jews are now only in control of half of one. And I don't know about you, but I don't think Israel would be too happy about being wiped off the face of the Earth.

Quote:
Frankly though, if the US would stop funding israel (both sides infact), then they would have much more of an incentive to reach a deal.
Sorry, but I disagree. It is entirely possible that you're right, but it is just as likely that they will be spurred on to finish it while they are cut off from our support. By the time the US restores funding to stop the PLO's destruction, it will be too late.

Quote:
IMHO the UN should make jerusalem some form of internationally policed "neutral zone". If the people of the middle ages could (at least for a hundred years or so) manage to make jerusalem an open city to both religions, you would think that "more civilised" people of our generation should be able to manage something similar.
People change. I don't think it'll work, but there's no harm in letting them try.

Quote:
Not to mention that our revolutionists (like the minute men) fought a guerilla war against the British to gain our independence.
Ah, but we didn't go to England and go killing British civilians, now did we?



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Old 02-02-2006, 12:58 PM   #45
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Before World War II, Germany needed more of it's "traditional lands" returned to them. For their people. Ask the people of Poland, France and most of the rest of Europe what happened because we continued to give into Hitler's terrorist threats.

What is the difference between Hamas and Fatah? Sound like the start of a good joke. Unfortunately, the punch line is the Palenstinian civilians along with the Israeli civilians. At least Fatah gave lip service to the "road map to peace". I heard a news blurb this morning in which the leaders of Hamas said they are willing to discuss a cease fire that could, perhaps, last as long as ten years.

Question: They are now the elected government. They are willing to discuss a "cease-fire". Does this mean that the Palenstinian government has now officially declare WAR on Israel?

Question 2: Ten years? Not a peace treaty? What kind of build up will they be able to accomplish in those ten years? This is anything but comfortable for the rest of the world.

Question 3: Does anyone remember Oil for Food? How much money actually got the the people of Iraq? Does anyone think that Hamas would use monies it got for the people....or for more guns. Surely, paying families of homocide bombers does not count as money to the people.

As for the Palestinian people. They picked 'em, they've got to deal with the circumstances.
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:16 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
My point was not that the PLO has killed more, it was that they PLO is less than humane overall in it's methods.
I think that if it results in the deaths, especially of civilians, then no method can be called humane. I think a lot of it is down to perception.. people see someone strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing themselves up as "uncivilised" but sending in apache gunships with rockets, or tanks seems much more "civilised".

If both result in the deaths of an equal number of civilians then as far as i am concerned they are both as inhumane as each other.

The only difference, and the one that israelis cling to, is that they "target" their bombs against specific militants, and the palestinians don't.

Which would be a fair point IF the israelis didn't keep targetting those militant individuals with rockets in the middle of tennament blocks... knowing full well that there would be a lot of collateral damage. Once they do that they loose any moral highground as far as i am concerned. Killing random civilians, and killing knowing you will also kill random civilians is morally equivilent in my book.

I'd reckon that even if 75% of those killed by israel WERE millitants (which seems a highly unlikely figure to me - i'd suspect more like 25%) thats still 800 civillians killed vs only 400-600 by the palestinians. Add to that the fact that each death probably cause 20 or so injuries (almost certainly civilians) and you have 60,000 palestinian civies injured, vs 18,000 israeli civies.

Quote:
Saying nothing of the wasted men when they blow themselves up, I don't overall approve of terrorist tactics, but bombs are used by the US, and it's fair that they can use them as well. But using them against civilians, as you said, is wrong.
Indeed. And I don't support that at all. However I suspect it is hardly THEIR first choice either.

When you have no jobs, are caged in a small gheto of your homeland, and are fighting an opposing force that has Nukes, Apaches, Jets, Rockets, Tanks & one of the largest armies in the world... and all you have is a few rocks, a few ak47s and a bit of semtex its not surprising that you might get desperate and resort to desperate measures.

I don't condone it, but i understand why you might do it. It is't to do with rampaging, or being animals. Its to do with being desperate and having to use any dirty trick you can to stay afloat.

Quote:
If Israel loses, the entire civilization is gone. Ka-put. Wiped off. If the PLO is defeated, they don't stand to lose further territory.
Not really.

1 - It is an artificially created nation anyway... judaism was fine without a nation of israel, and it would be fine if it went again. Indeed they are a large part of the most powerful and wealthy nation on earth, aren't they?

(but as i said, i don't think its at all practical to remove israel any more. Not creating it in the first place would have been a good idea... but its too late for that. )

2 - As I understand it the creation of israel DID remove all the palestinian territory.. it was only through the uprisings that they got what they have now. But i'll admit I'm not on expert on that and I could be wrong.
I think the borders currently recognised by international law (and violated by israel) were only defined AFTER the palestinians had risen up and reclained the west bank and gaza... maybe.

To think either side is going to be defeated entirely is foolish, and only the hard liners on either side believe that. (and even they recently show signs of weariness). So a compromise will eventually have to be reached.

Quote:
Ah, but we didn't go to England and go killing British civilians, now did we?
No, but technically you already were in England...
..and i suspect you killed civillians... as dirty things happen in most wars.

But at the time the tactics of the minutemen were seen as just as shocking, "uncivilised" and "animalistic" as the tactics of suicide bombers are seen today.

And technically the palestinians aren't "going to israel".. they are already in Israel/Palestine as they both are the same place.

In the US you are allowed to use any means necessary to protect your home from invasion... but the palestinians aren't allowed to use any means necessary against the intruders in their country?



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Old 02-02-2006, 01:27 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Not to mention that our revolutionists (like the minute men) fought a guerilla war against the British to gain our independence.
But the last I checked, no minutemen strapped dynamite to themselves and blew themselves up inside a pub full of Torries.


As for the numbers on who killed how many of whom, I think it's important to note just who was being killed. It's one thing for the Israeli military to take out Hamas leaders...things like this are something else entirely:



Something else: one of the Hamas members elected to the Palestinian parliament was Miriam Farhat , also known as "the mother of martyrs," because she has sent three of her six sons out to die in attacks on Israel (one was killed during an attack on a Jewish settlement - a video was taken showing her instructing him on how to kill more efficiently. Another was killed as he was preparing for an attack, according to AlJazeera , and the third was killed by Israeli forces while transporting weapons (rockets) in his car).

If this is the kind of people the Palestinians are going to elect into their government, I don't see why anyone should support them.


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Old 02-02-2006, 02:38 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
But the last I checked, no minutemen strapped dynamite to themselves and blew themselves up inside a pub full of Torries.
No... but the forces were a lot closer to being balanced. The both had roughly the same armnaments.
The Torries didn't have attack helicopter gunships for instance...


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Old 02-02-2006, 02:53 PM   #49
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No... but the forces were a lot closer to being balanced. The both had roughly the same armnaments.
The Torries didn't have attack helicopter gunships for instance...
But that still doesn't justify their tactics. There's a difference between guerilla warfare and terrorism, and suicide bombings are not guerilla warfare.


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Old 02-02-2006, 04:12 PM   #50
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My point wasn't to say that our revolutionists were as bad as suicide bombers. It was just to point out that at one time, we were the insurgents. We were the ones running out in our civilian clothes ambushing British soldiers. We were the ones who defeated a superior force through determination rather than through superiority.

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Old 02-02-2006, 04:41 PM   #51
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Point taken...but the world has changed quite a bit since then.


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Old 02-02-2006, 08:42 PM   #52
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What's the difference between Hamas and Fatah? Sounds like the start of a joke. However the punch lines happen to be the civilian population of both Israel and the Palestinian territories.

And now, due to the impudent hubris of the western free press, any European, or ango, that happens to be visiting the territories. The extremist that are now in control of Palestine are actively looking for anglos to kidnap and FORCE the western governments to CONTROL the press and prevent them from displaying political cartoons that they find objectionable.

Are we to stay out of their politics while they rampage and terrorize the rest of the world because we dare to be different? If nothing else, this goes to show how they will rule. Not a good sign.
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Old 02-03-2006, 12:56 AM   #53
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No, it isn't. And that's exactly why we should help fund the government that will stand up to their fascist bull****. When HAMAS starts burning Danish and French flags instead of the US's, then maybe that'll gibe the Europeans a heads-up.

We can only pray...



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Old 02-03-2006, 04:22 AM   #54
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TK-8252, thank you for spelling this out for people with your Vatican/athiest analogy. I'm not a Palestinian nor Arab but I am a Muslim and this is pretty much *exactly* how we feel about the situation. Of course the locals (Palestinians and other Arabs from the region) feel it more because it's their homes and land that were taken and/or destroyed in addition to the religious issues.
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Old 02-03-2006, 07:59 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
Point taken...but the world has changed quite a bit since then.
Not as far as i can see. As i said, the tactics back then were seen as just as shocking by the british... but the americans didn't care about fighting the war properly...they cared about using whatever tactics they could to defeat a superior enemy.

So, out of the 3,000 or so palestinians killed in the last 5 years, you recjon the majority were militant leaders? Boy, talk about big government..

Quote:
What's the difference between Hamas and Fatah?
As far as I can see the difference is marginal.. and is mainly a matter of semantics. Fatah (like the IRA) has seperate wings (military and political) and several different factions which vary in the extremity of their views.
Hamas on the other hand is a untied entity.

This makes westerners feel more unconfortable, as there is no cosmetic gap between the political governers and the armed militants. But other than that the difference is mostly cosmetic.

All the footage I've seen RE:the mohammed cartoon has been of Fatah millitants with guns, making threats and blockading embassies. I think Hamas are too busy trying to work out how to run a country.. and Fatah obviously have some pent up frustration that they have found a target for.

But as the leaders of every islamic state have (allies or enemies, moderate or extremist, democratic or dictatorial) have condemned the cartoons its hardly fair to single out the palestinians.
(though the whole cartoon issue is possibly worth another thread)

It strikes me as a little odd that the same people who argue in other threads against the seperation of church and state, for laws to be based on religious principles (gay marriage, abortion, etc..) and would likely support (a) the right to bear arms for self defence, (b) an eye for an eye style justice, (c) those that say the traditional family unit is being destroyed due to pre marital sex, adultery, working mothers etc.. seem to be the ones most against governments that govern based on religious scripture, make laws based on religious teaching, bear arms in self defence, practice biblical justice and so forth. Isn't that exactly what you would wish for in your country?

A christian country that implemented, to the letter, all biblical laws would be almost identical in practice to a muslim country under sharia law. Its just they implement their religious teachings evenly, not picking and choosing the ones they happen to like or dislike like modern christian leaders.



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Old 02-03-2006, 11:20 AM   #56
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Well, it's official: HAMAS shouldn't rule.

I'm sure you heard of the outrage that the Arabs feel over Denmark and France posting a cartoon of Muhammad. Well, the PLO is burning Danish flags.

Additional Source



Third source

If that's what HAMAS does now, I can't even begin to think about what they will do in power. The whole world MUST obey the Muslims! Or else they will look for captives to force the government to convert to Islam! It's going to be hell on Earth if allowed to rule. I mean, think about it, if they get a big position of power in the world, they will eventually take over! It's terrorism! It can't be allowed to go on.

Oh...

Fourth source, in case you weren't convinced enough.



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Old 02-03-2006, 11:52 AM   #57
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So... what's your plan for getting them out of power?

And exactly how are the Palestinian people who voted them in see any action towards the government they elected being forcibly removed from power by outside parties as a reflection on the mechanisms of democracy?

I'm not sure you can go around the world trumpeting free elections, then bitch when someone is voted in who's principals you don't care for.

I'm not sure of the solution... but presenting America's face to the world as totally hypocritical on elections and democracy we are so busy trying to promote doesn't quite seem like the way to go.

After all... if there are to be truly free elections in Iraq, then it very, very possible that country could go the exact same way.


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Old 02-03-2006, 12:02 PM   #58
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The PLO was never a part of Hamas or visa-versa. As I understand it the PLO became Fatah.

Infact there is only one reference to Hamas in any of the articles you linked:
Quote:
Several Islamist groups, including the Palestinian militant Hamas party and Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, called for a worldwide boycott of Danish products.
Which hardly seems like a particularly terrorist-like stance to take. Boycotting goods!! Oh the animals!!

Quote:
The protests follow Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen's Oct. 21 refusal to meet ambassadors of 11 Muslim countries to discuss censuring the Jyllands-Posten paper after it printed 12 cartoons of the prophet on Sept. 30, including one showing Muhammad wearing a bomb instead of a turban. Muslim leaders want an official apology.
So, 11 muslim governments are upset over this, and you somehow assume that this is a sign that Hamas is unfit for government? I don't get the link at all. (and i still think this cartoon topic deserves it's own thread, but can't be bothered to make one.)

You seem to be guilty of lumping a whole load of unrelated things together and tarring everyone with the same brush simply because a few people went too far. (and as far as i'm aware, appart from a few protests and flag burnings, the only "too far" act that has occured was the kidnapping of a german(?) guy... and that wasn't even in palestine.)



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Old 02-03-2006, 12:18 PM   #59
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HYPERBOLE! Hurray.

How exactly does a completely seperate group burning a flag equate to HAMAS trying to take over the world like this **** was some sort of Pinky and The Brain?

"Ahmed, do you know what I am pondering?"
'No, what are you thinkin about Abdul?'
"What I think about every night, trying to take over the world."
"WE WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD BY BOYCOTTING GOODS!"

How barbaric, damn that HAMAS.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 02-03-2006, 03:24 PM   #60
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One possible solution that seems to make sense to me: http://www.theamericancause.org/
(If the home page column changes the article in question is called "Put Hamas on probation.")

While Pat Buchanan is not exactly a name I normally associate with reasoned moderation, at least not on the "Culture-War" front, I basically agree with everything he says in his latest online column. I often find his foreign policy instincts are right on the money.


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Old 02-11-2006, 01:07 PM   #61
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why does it always have to be the same? I mean some people who gathered to decide what is wrong and what is right for totally deferent people, first of all we have to know that its not your or my decision to support or not support HAMAS, what matters is that their people support them and this is their decision only.

Well, first of all, you should not judge some one by his action without knowing his reasons beyond this actions, these people are fighting for their land and above all for their lives, the two sides are killing eachothers that’s right, because they are in war, but it is always the American narrow view (no offence meant to Americans), lets not forget that what the American government do now (unleashing wars) is for their own safety, like that they are only humans and those whom they are killing (even if they are terrorists) are not humans, the leaders of HAMAS must be killed but not the leaders of Israel, that’s a very narrow view, I mean lets just get some flashbacks from the history, we do remember that every nation had fought to get its independency, they killed and were killed, that is war, and that’s what happening between Israel and HAMAS, now how can we stop this war, we have to negotiate, and that means that the two parties must give something to the other, and if we just say that HAMAS wont do this simply because they've killed some Israelis, that wont help because Israel did the same and I can not find some one who says the same things about them.

Now, the American government says that they will stop giving the aid to the Palestinians and some of you have said that too, that lets see what the Palestinian shall do if we stop the aid?
It is very arrogant and barbaric, how could someone say this with cold blood? Do you know what stopping aids means? It means killing the Palestinian people, if you stop the food and the money you are killing them, how could you say this? Lets just kill some poor Palestinians, do you think that they will love you then and they will blame HAMAS for this????? Hey wake up, its them who elected HAMAS and they've elected it for a reason, for they think that they are the ones who guarantee their rights and whether you like it or not it’s the truth and its their decision not yours, instead USA will be hated even more.

Another thing, you can see how USA is mistaken by knowing this (or remember it because I think that everyone knows), every time some one of the USA government come o please us with his/her nice looking face, he/she start to talk about democracy and how they will make the people decide whom they want to be ruled by, and suddenly when this words became real and the people of Palestine elected their leaders in a democratic way, we find them saying that they wont deal with this terrorists, well it’s the democracy you want and it was your decision so why leaving??????? Or maybe what they meant by democracy is electing a government that support the US and its policies, and if that was the case, correct me if I am wrong, it wont be a democracy maybe.
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Old 02-11-2006, 02:00 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffSaberist
Well, it's official: HAMAS shouldn't rule.

I'm sure you heard of the outrage that the Arabs feel over Denmark and France posting a cartoon of Muhammad. Well, the PLO is burning Danish flags.

Additional Source



Third source

If that's what HAMAS does now, I can't even begin to think about what they will do in power. The whole world MUST obey the Muslims! Or else they will look for captives to force the government to convert to Islam! It's going to be hell on Earth if allowed to rule. I mean, think about it, if they get a big position of power in the world, they will eventually take over! It's terrorism! It can't be allowed to go on.

Oh...

Fourth source, in case you weren't convinced enough.
dont get me wrong but, [Deleted]?, if HAMAS that strong it wouldnt take them that time to acheave thier aims, and it would be foolish to stand against them.

and as for what you said about the cartoon drawings, its really stupid to think that mocking of the holiest person in the hearts of 1 million and 4 hunderd thousand persons around the world is a freedom of press, if offencing people in thier believes is freedom then you must not hate nor attack someone who attack the holocaust (as Iranian president) because its his point of view and he is free, not just that even those who kill themselves in suicide bombs are free, and so on...so its rediculous, you are free, but your freedom has limits and its limist ends where others freedom begins, thus attaking people in thier believes is not freedom, and if your societies dont care about this stuff, you should know that not all the societies around the wrold has the same values as yours and especially the arabs and muslems, and by doing this (especially after Bush's supporting the cartoons) people will hate you more and it is wont benefit you nor the whole world ,including muslems, if people started to stand by Ben Laden.

Last edited by SkinWalker; 02-13-2006 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Deleted insult
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Old 03-08-2006, 12:49 PM   #63
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Apparently, HAMAS has launched a web site enouraging children to become suicide bombers...

Personally, I don't think HAMAS is going to moderate just because they've gained power...if anything, they're going to get worse, and this is evidence of that.


And, for the record, there are many radical Islamic organizations whose stated goal is to have Shari'a law worldwide...essentially, the worldwide domination of Islam. I don't know whether HAMAS is one of those organizations, but I remember reading that it was one of Al-Qaida's stated goals.


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Old 03-08-2006, 01:13 PM   #64
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I like how instead of coming to a conclusion through evidence of them being bad, you just assume they're horrible and search for evidence after the fact.

And Al-Qaida is not the topic at hand, they have about as much relevence to this as guacamole does to canaries.


So far HAMAS (the political party) hasn't really shown themselves to be an incompetent political party, and while I generally dislike the group, I have no reason to see them unfit for duty.


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Old 03-08-2006, 02:43 PM   #65
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So the numerous HAMAS suicide bombings don't count toward HAMAS being bad? I'm not coming to conclusions without evidence - I know HAMAS is bad because of what they've done in the past. As far as their political role, I've heard many express high hopes that they would moderate now that they're in power, but I'm skeptical based on their history and various reports I've read about how they're still encouraging the destruction of Israel...and this is just one more peice of evidence against them.


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Old 03-09-2006, 08:12 AM   #66
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I may be wrong, but i don't remember hearing on ANY hamas violence since they were elected? Have i missed some?
As far as i know Islamic Jihad have fired a few rockets into islamic territory, not hurting anyone. Israel has bombed a car with two islamic jihad terrorists and a child. Thats it as far as violence so far.

Quote:
Hamas has dismissed a message by al-Qaeda number two Ayman al-Zawahiri urging the Palestinian militant group never to make peace with Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4776578.stm

It should probably be pointed out that just because Hamas is in charge doens't mean they have a total dictatorship.. there is still a parliament with Fatah and other party members, there is still a president and a court.

To be honest, I have no idea if Hamas will be good or evil (or probably something in between)... but i'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.



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