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Old 03-24-2006, 11:24 AM   #1
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Black Holes

I was playing on corellia on galactic conflict and I saw something new, a black hole, I recognized it from its model, and apparently doesn't do anything, but I haven't heard if anyone had found this out yet so I figured I'd post.



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Old 03-24-2006, 12:17 PM   #2
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Your right, its just barely visible



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Old 03-24-2006, 03:07 PM   #3
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I saw it too, my missiles actually flew into a circle above it. They didn't even hit what they were aimed at.


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Old 03-24-2006, 03:18 PM   #4
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IT'd be cool if fighters got stuck in it






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Old 03-25-2006, 08:42 AM   #5
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ha! i had to adjust my gamma settins so i could see it
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Old 03-25-2006, 08:52 AM   #6
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The black hole should be very far or everything(including the planert beneath) should be sucked in.
But what does this have to do with modding?
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Old 03-25-2006, 09:59 AM   #7
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Intereasting find, but this has nothing to do with modding.

Moved to General Discussion.


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Old 03-25-2006, 11:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popcorn2008
Intereasting find, but this has nothing to do with modding.
Yeah, it's just picturesque, that's all.
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Old 04-09-2006, 03:59 PM   #9
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Actually, black holes are very much misunderstood popularly. They only have a noticeable effect when you're near the event horizon. For example, if the Sun were magically converted into a black hole, the Earth would feel no effect whatsoever (other than the fact it'd get really chilly in a hurry with no more sunlight)
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Old 04-09-2006, 07:20 PM   #10
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Very nice find. I had to change my monitor's brightness to see it though XD.


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Old 04-09-2006, 07:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandarax
Actually, black holes are very much misunderstood popularly. They only have a noticeable effect when you're near the event horizon. For example, if the Sun were magically converted into a black hole, the Earth would feel no effect whatsoever (other than the fact it'd get really chilly in a hurry with no more sunlight)
From an old discussion regarding "space obstacles" in EaW space maps....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athanasios
Geez, guys, you must be kidding with the black holes . They're not just a small "hole" on the space map, like your hands washer's one, they're (most based scientific opinion) planets with tremendous gravity where even photons are captured, since the main characteristic of black holes is the huge emmision of X-ray (which derives from the extreme speed the photons gain until they crash on planets terrain)......all the rest about "jump to history/future" are unbased tales of some people out there and not scientists'.......
Apart from this small note, great find usul! It's a really nice eye-candy feature and it's the first time after (about) 2 months is notice it !

However, what it happened to me the other day was that missiles from a Missile Defense turret were strolling around the target (like you describe) without hitting it! The map is by 99% the skirmish space map of "Coruscant" or "Tatoine" (the two maps where we do TR tests).......omg! *rushing to that map while turning all gamma options to full*



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Old 04-09-2006, 11:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandarax
Actually, black holes are very much misunderstood popularly. They only have a noticeable effect when you're near the event horizon. For example, if the Sun were magically converted into a black hole, the Earth would feel no effect whatsoever (other than the fact it'd get really chilly in a hurry with no more sunlight)
Mostly true, but the tidal forces from the extremely warped spacetime around the singularity can be felt well outside the event horizon if the black hole is a smaller one. Those forces don't suck things in, though...they tear stuff apart. Earth is probably far enough away from the Sun to be unaffected, but I don't think I'd want to live on Mercury if the Sun collapsed--nor would I want to be anywhere near that black hole int he Corellian system!


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Old 04-10-2006, 05:38 AM   #13
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its all theory, never been tested
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Old 04-10-2006, 06:10 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowsfm
its all theory, never been tested
What do you by mean "test"? Experiment? Like sending an astronaut into a black hole and see what happens?

The X-ray is evidence, not experiment. For many phenomenons in physic you deduct fact & laws by strong evidences. Visit NASA.org for more infos/screenshots (they have some cool ones).



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Old 04-10-2006, 11:06 AM   #15
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It's all Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which has been experimentally confirmed in all cases not approaching the quantum limit. Black holes are just unique solutions of General Relativity. If you want a well-written book on black holes in layman's terms, check out Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy by Kip Thorne, an eminent physicist at CalTech.


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Old 04-10-2006, 01:32 PM   #16
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here's a inverted image if anyone's having trouble seeing it (like me)
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:15 PM   #17
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It doesn't really matter what the nature of an actual black hole would be. EaW is just a game, and as such simulating what would actually happen at or near the event horizon of a black hole is irrelevant (and unknown to all of us here on Earth). The only evidence we have about them is speculation, for all any of us know a black hole could send you to Candyland when you get near it.



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Old 04-11-2006, 02:50 PM   #18
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Well actually all these "speculations" are based on mathematical models, so while we know that things can't be "tested", there are very good reasons to believe we're correct about certain things. It's the same as how we know what the inside of the Earth is like. Noone's been there, but from the evidence we have, we've made mathematical models that show how things have to be to produce the results we can actually see. As for the tidal forces of a solar-mass black hole, I doubt even Mercury would be too badly effected. After all, it's still the same mass as the sun, so the same amount of gravity, and mercury is far enough away that the difference shouldn't be enough to crack it in two, from what I've learned. I'm no astrophysicist, but I figure an two-semester astronomy course taught at a university by a doctor of physics is probably good enough for this sort of discussion :P Neutron stars and such could be interesting as well.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandarax
Well actually all these "speculations" are based on mathematical models, so while we know that things can't be "tested", there are very good reasons to believe we're correct about certain things. It's the same as how we know what the inside of the Earth is like. Noone's been there, but from the evidence we have, we've made mathematical models that show how things have to be to produce the results we can actually see. As for the tidal forces of a solar-mass black hole, I doubt even Mercury would be too badly effected. After all, it's still the same mass as the sun, so the same amount of gravity, and mercury is far enough away that the difference shouldn't be enough to crack it in two, from what I've learned. I'm no astrophysicist, but I figure an two-semester astronomy course taught at a university by a doctor of physics is probably good enough for this sort of discussion :P Neutron stars and such could be interesting as well.
And I figure classes at MIT on this subject and a good understanding of philosophy qualify me to say things like "prove it" and "why does the black hole or the universe on a whole care about our 'calculations' here on Earth that may or may not be based on pure speculation and thus false?". As much as I'd like to believe we're right about this sort of thing I know we might not be. I also know it's just a game and this particular feature was probably added at a late stage of development and that the developers probably don't care about ruining the player's gaming experience by having their ridiculously expensive fleet of ISDs sucked into a black hole



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Old 04-11-2006, 08:33 PM   #20
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Oh how i love black holes...

Black holes, in a realistic manner, could actually be used in a game as a main subject if done properly, they are very interesting, even in real life.

Black Hole's are simple, they are a large amount of mass compressed into a small space, if our sun became a black hole it would have the same gravity as our sun did. However, the process of turning into a black hole would first involve a super novae and then a star emitting extreme amounts of radiation, and not to mention the tidle forces... Any planet within viewing distance of a black hole with life on it is not a possibility. And that's probably an understatement.

As to wormholes and time travel, that IS realistic. Time is relative. To you, if you were to go to a black hole near the Event Horizon, time would progress normally and you would seem to be moving fairly quickly, it would take probably a couple hours to skim by the horizon and shoot back out, if you had a ship capable of reaching escape velocity and surviving the tidal forces, that is. However, to an outside observer, it would take you hundreds of years to go in and back out. For you, its been an hour, for the rest of the universe, it's been a couple hundred years - You've traveled into the future.

According to relativity, things with a large mass, such as a planet, create a curviture in spacetime. Think of a flat plane, then, where a planet is, imagine a huge whole where space bends around it going inside this whole. The larger a mass, the larger the disturbance, and this has a huge effect on spacetime, but it's a long long explanation as per the effects of that, but just think of the effect of the mass of a black hole all compact into that small area.

It's theorized that black hole's could potentially connect to other black hole's, because of their disturbance in spacetime, allowing travel between the two, however, current theories suggest that most black holes would only sustain this connection for short amounts of time, and anything caught in it when it dissapated would *literally* cease to exsist. I dont mean atoms crushing or anything, i mean you literally are wiped from exsistance itself. But let's not even get into the kind of ship you'd need to survive the black hole, let alone getting through the connection through spacetime curvature.

There's also the theory of a White hole, this is literally the opposite of a black hole, it spits matter out instead of sucking it in, but this would require negative-Energy (if i recall correctly) which exists only in theory (but has good mathematical models on it, so i trust the theory) but white holes actually existing is pure speculation here, we have no visual evidence (But if they did, they probably would appear white, or atleast very bright, spewing out light and all sort's of other matter, especially anything that came through a sustained connection between it and a black hole, but again here we're relying on a lot of theories being true, but it is a seriously considered possibility by the scientific community.)

Also, when getting into this theory of traveling in a black hole, there is the theory of "Baby Universes" Being spawned *inside*, with it's own cosmos, stars and all. But as you can see, black hole's are really cool in real life, i see no need to use fiction regaurding black hole's when there's plenty of cool real life theories, eh, eventually someone will make something good out of it.


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Old 04-11-2006, 08:55 PM   #21
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Very good SRF_Vader!

Though to add to that, when you are being sucked into a black hole, you wont survive to see this. But the universe will flash by very quickly if you could "look out". Because although it may seem a small time to you, the outside universe is going warp speed from your POV. But from there's your going the speed of a snail.


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Old 04-11-2006, 09:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRF_Vader
It's theorized that black hole's could potentially connect to other black hole's, because of their disturbance in spacetime, allowing travel between the two, however, current theories suggest that most black holes would only sustain this connection for short amounts of time, and anything caught in it when it dissapated would *literally* cease to exsist. I dont mean atoms crushing or anything, i mean you literally are wiped from exsistance itself. But let's not even get into the kind of ship you'd need to survive the black hole, let alone getting through the connection through spacetime curvature.
Are you referring to something like the annihilation or atoms (like when a particle collides with it's anti-particle), or something that just makes matter and energy cease to exist? I once again counter this with: "prove it" though

It's one thing to observe particles and notice evidence of their existance (think about the years before the discovery of the Tau particle), but it's quite another to speculate about the innards of an object that's billions of lightyears away, is impossible to enter with current technology, and can barely be seen. I'd just like a little in the way of observable evidence, I'm not one who's skeptical of everything, seeing as I actually believe in string theory



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Old 04-11-2006, 10:22 PM   #23
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Well, as they say Black Hole's are potentially the most mysterious objects of the entire Universe, and may be the key to unlock the secret's of it. We know what we do through mathematical computations based off what we see. We cant see a black hole, it's impossible (atleast, with light, it does emit other particles) but we CAN see the effects black holes have on their environment. But honestly, there are no truly 100% Solid theories on black holes, and probably never will until we are able to get close to one. I mean we're talking about research that could continue a million years from now should the human race succeed in existing that long (That is one of our long term goals afterall, survival )


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Old 04-11-2006, 10:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRF_Vader
Well, as they say Black Hole's are potentially the most mysterious objects of the entire Universe, and may be the key to unlock the secret's of it. We know what we do through mathematical computations based off what we see. We cant see a black hole, it's impossible (atleast, with light, it does emit other particles) but we CAN see the effects black holes have on their environment. But honestly, there are no truly 100% Solid theories on black holes, and probably never will until we are able to get close to one. I mean we're talking about research that could continue a million years from now should the human race succeed in existing that long (That is one of our long term goals afterall, survival )
That's what I was trying to point out, they're unknown to us and we don't really know what happens around them and that what we do "know" is just theory. I actually posted in this thread to point that out and stamp out the possibility of this turning into a "zOMG u r a moaron teh blac hols r not reprezentd rite in teh game!!1"-type thread



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Old 04-11-2006, 11:01 PM   #25
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Well, just because it doesnt have a lot of evidence behind it doesnt mean it should be disregaurded, they are good theories and they do have quite extensive studies behind them, i think if black holes are to be put into a game, they should atleast use some of the currently exsisting theories instead of just going completely out there with it.


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Old 04-11-2006, 11:03 PM   #26
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Yes, but having theories here in real life and in the field of physics/quantum mechanics and implementing said theories in a game are two entirely different things.



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Old 04-12-2006, 11:41 AM   #27
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First, let me introduce myself properly...I'm a physics major at Williams College and have taken a number of courses that dealt with black holes (though I must admit I'm not taking the general relativity course offered at the moment in leiu of writing an experimental physics thesis).

Vader, from a layman's perspective, your explanations are pretty much accurate, with a few tiny modifications:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRF_Vader
Black Hole's are simple, they are a large amount of mass compressed into a small space, if our sun became a black hole it would have the same gravity as our sun did. However, the process of turning into a black hole would first involve a super novae and then a star emitting extreme amounts of radiation
A clarification: not only do black holes have a large mass, they have a large mass compressed into an infinitesimal space. That is, the all the mass of a black hole occupies a point at the center of the black hole with no volume whatsoever. Think for a moment: if light cannot escape a black hole's gravitational pull, why should the matter making up the object's mass be able to withstand compression? This point is called the 'singularity' of the black hole. Now, the event horizon of a black hole is a different matter entirely, and can actually be quite large. The event horizon encloses all the space in which photons (light) cannot escape the black hole's gravity. If anything--you, a photon, a Corellian Gunship with engines boosted--goes into the event horizon, it never comes out. The imporant thing with tidal forces is the diameter of the event horizon (which is coupled to the mass of the black hole). Tidal forces result from a difference in graviational pull between points at different distances fromt he black hole's event horizon, and smaller event horizons actually exhibit larger tidal forces than large ones do. What's even weirder is that any mass that enters the event horizon nearly instantaneously becomes incorporated into the singularity. ('Nearly instantaneously' meaning faster than the speed of light as would be viewed by observers outside the event horizon if they could actually see in.) This is because a black hole isn't just a really strong dent in spacetime like a star is--at the singularity, spacetime actually is not well defined at all (hence the mathematical term 'singularity'). Imagine Carl Sagan's rubber sheet, stretched taut, with a bowling ball sitting in the center: the bowling ball is a star, and the rubber sheet is spacetime, and a ping-pong ball falling into the dent in the rubber would be experiencing the star's gravitational pull. To make a black hole, you would have to poke a tiny hole in the rubber with a pin, and stretch the hole down towards the ground, making a 'dent' in the rubber sheet that stretches towards the 'singularity.' Actually, to really make a black hole, you would have to keep stretching the rubber down that hole forever--spacetime itself actually moves into a black hole. That's how objects within the event horizon travel 'faster' than light. To them, they are travelling slower than light, but if we could see them, we'd see their spacetime moving--at nearly the speed of light itself!

The creation of a black hole does not require a supernova, just a gravitational collapse. However, in the real universe, we don't really see the one without the other--a giant star exhausts its fusion fuel, collapses in on itself, the resulting compression fuses many of the heavier elements in the star in a titanic explosion that blows away the outer layers of the star, and if the remaineder of the star has enough mass and is in a small enough space, it can overcome neutron pressure and collapse into a black hole.

As for the whole philosophy/simulation deal...

Black holes were first proposed as a solution to the equations of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, after the theory had been accepted (and experimentally confirmed) for about forty years. So right from the bat, black holes were predicted by a theory that has been generally recognized to be consistent with the observable (macroscale) universe. Black holes are not just the result of some mathematical model on some obscure physicist's computer somewhere--they are an analytical solution to Einstein's equations. (You can do that math by hand. Well, a mathematician or a physicist could do that math by hand.) I will certainly admit that they are a crazy idea, though...Einstein himself was one of the first people to dismiss them as a misapplication of his theory.

Sicne then, black holes have been experimentally observed. We can't see them, but we can measure them. There are a number of ways to do this: first, we can detect black holes that orbit stars, because the orbit of the star will be perturbed enough that we know there's a huge mass nearby, even though we can't see that mass. Second, gravitational lensing can bend starlight around a black hole, distorting its image in our telescopes and allowing us to infer the existence of a large mass (some of the more dramatic lensing effects are known as 'Einstein's Crosses'). Third, as Athanasios mentioned, if a particle gets too close to a black hole but is not on a trajectory into the event horizon, it may be accelerated to such a high speed that it will give off high-energy X- and gamma-rays. This is particularly useful for locating spinning black holes, or black holes with magnetic fields. The important thing is that all these effects have been observed, and in many cases the only consistent explanation for the existence of those effects is the existence of a black hole.

[/physics rant]


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Old 04-12-2006, 02:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge2211
First, let me introduce myself properly...
Ah, I thought you held some scientific education based on your other posts. I'm a degreed Aerospace Engineer myself (Auburn University, 1990), although I've since worked exclusively in IT management since then. In college I also took quite a few physics and advanced mathematics courses.

Although science fiction is traditionally a mix of science fact and fantasy, Star Wars leans more towards fantasy than most.

A point of evidence regarding travel exceeding the speed of light: in Han's words the Millennium Falcon can do ".5 past light speed". Past light speed? What's commonly referred to as "faster than light" travel in sci-fi is often (in more detail) portrayed as either the use of wormholes (currently theoretical) or by means of "folding space" (also theoretical).

Many theories on the forefront of science (circa the most recent 100 years) are uncertain, and will be until we have the means to gather direct evidence - for instance with black holes, although we have more evidence of the nature of black holes than other theoretical phenomena - but travel that's actually faster-than-light seems to me less likely based on current knowledge than travel via either wormholes (if they exist as predicted) or by some form of a transdimensional folding of space by extreme mass displacement.


edit:
Oh yeah...to make my point. Since there are many other factors which delve into "pure fantasy" in Star Wars, flying past a black hole on a space map in this game doesn't bother me much.
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