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Old 03-30-2006, 10:32 AM   #121
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Luke didn't use anything of the dark side, only light side.
You mean Kyle Katarn who used both sides.


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Old 03-30-2006, 12:44 PM   #122
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No, he did use the dark side, just watch ROTJ. But he does not go down the extreme path of jedi and sith. He also called the academy for a jedi academy bcause sith were evil. Luke is able to balance the two sides, and they are therefor in harmony.


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Old 03-30-2006, 12:55 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Alec
No, he did use the dark side, just watch ROTJ. But he does not go down the extreme path of jedi and sith. He also called the academy for a jedi academy bcause sith were evil. Luke is able to balance the two sides, and they are therefor in harmony.
Huh?

Luke only used briefly flirted with the darkside when he got angry agaisnt palpatine but then i wouldnt say he used the darkside by getting angry though.

Also "He also called the academy for a jedi academy bcause sith were evil." doesnt make sense??


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Old 03-30-2006, 02:18 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Alec
How does that make the movies make no sence?
For example, why would the Jedi attempt to bring about the prophecy when they know they are the most prominent? i.e. why would they want to destroy themselves? Why would they seek to also destroy the Sith if they know that means their numbers will also be zero? For starters...

And the creators have already said this isn't correct, so it isn't really worth arguing...

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Originally Posted by Darth Alec
With both sides of the force exterminated, only luke was left, and he used both sides.
He started using both sides (anger and hate) while fighting Vader, but then turned back to the light, whereas Vader had chosen darkness. The whole point of the trilogies was to show how the son choose differently from that father.

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Originally Posted by Darth Alec
No, he did use the dark side, just watch ROTJ. But he does not go down the extreme path of jedi and sith.
Ok, so you are saying "Return of the Jedi" is actually a poor title and should actually should be "Return of the Force Using Guy Who Is Neither Sith Nor Jedi".

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Originally Posted by Darth Alec
He also called the academy for a jedi academy bcause sith were evil. Luke is able to balance the two sides, and they are therefor in harmony.
Uh, what? Where on earth did you come up with that?

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Old 03-31-2006, 05:38 PM   #125
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Bah, I get a headach just by thinking on this topic now, so in right of superior numbers and more mature-ness, I'll back down.
I hate when this happens.......

But I will continue to search for more proof, and then defeat you all.


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Last edited by Darth Alec; 04-01-2006 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:33 AM   #126
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Luke seems to use choke a Gamorran.


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Old 04-03-2006, 01:29 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darth Alec
But I will continue to search for more proof, and then defeat you all.
We'll be waiting.

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Old 04-03-2006, 04:42 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redtech
Luke seems to use choke a Gamorran.
I would say this is definatley a dark side power as we see jedi crushing things *like guns barrels and stuff its pretty much the same thing* all the time so i doubt he had to channel the dark side to use it.


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Old 04-03-2006, 04:44 PM   #129
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Technically, the only power specific to Sith is lightning.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:28 PM   #130
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Luke has and still does use both sides fo the force.
If you follow the EU you will find that Luke did in fact succumb to the Darkside at one point and he did so purposefully. (Dark Empire) His reasons where to better understand his enemy, and it took his Twin Sister Leia to bring him back to the light. Yet even his now wife Mara says that he has not completely turned from the Dark Path because he was using the force to impose his will on the world around him.

Individual powers (contrary to video game usage) are not inherantly Light nor Dark in and of themselves, but in how they are channeled and used. If the power comes from a negative emotional response and bends the world to your will then it falls to the darkside. If the power stems from a positive emotional response such as compassion and you allow your will to be bent by the living force, then it resides on the side of the light.

When a jedi is calm and at peace then the force flows from them.
A sith uses anger and fear to bend the force to their will.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:32 PM   #131
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Yay, more evidance!!! But it stinks to live in Norway, no books or comics.


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Old 04-06-2006, 01:15 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Alec
Yay, more evidance!!! But it stinks to live in Norway, no books or comics.
You have internet and movies, do you not?


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Old 04-07-2006, 01:59 AM   #133
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Yes I do, but finding the right kind of evidance is difficult when not in a book/comic.


I am a High Admiral of the Imperial fleet.

Serving the Empire is my destiny, and only Sidious is my lord.

Two starwars parodys...

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Old 04-07-2006, 01:08 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redtech
Luke seems to use choke a Gamorran.
aye, but a useful lesson from the jedi knight/jedi acadamy game is from kyle katarn: "its not the force power that is evil, it's how you use it"
end argument... here.


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Old 04-07-2006, 06:39 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Alec
Yes I do, but finding the right kind of evidance is difficult when not in a book/comic.
Still, you can order them online.

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Originally Posted by venom_tyrant
aye, but a useful lesson from the jedi knight/jedi acadamy game is from kyle katarn: "its not the force power that is evil, it's how you use it"
Also, that's from a game. A force power can still be evil, as well, as the person. Sith lightning is evil.


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Old 04-08-2006, 05:08 AM   #136
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yeh. but its how you use it. which really doesnt make sense now you've said that. ooh. maybe its a form of "destroy droid2 which is a LS power in KOTOR. or should we leave the games out of this?


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Old 04-08-2006, 08:50 PM   #137
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Yeah, but "Sith Lightning" can be good in the games, and in the EU they just call it "electric justice" or some other such crap. It really doesn't make any sense.

All we know from the movies is that only two guys use lightning and it's bad. Oh wait, but Yoda used it [Insert angry fanboy saying that Yoda didn't "really" use lighting, he only reflected back, being the good non-violent fighter that he supposedly is]

There's so much confusion and lack of consistency in the Star Wars universe now. It's really there because Lucas decided to let his EU team do what they wanted, then he just decided to bulldoze it for the prequels, and instead of restarting the EU (which I think they should do now) he left them to try to make it all "fit" somehow. It's a big mess.


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Old 04-09-2006, 01:01 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chase Windu
He used lightning but it was deflected lightning and he was deflecting it back at Dooku and Palpy.

I haven't been keeping up with the EU because most of my interest in it died with Chewbacca in that f-ed up NJO crap. So what's all this about "electric justice"? I hopw you're kidding.
I'm not joking, but I got the name wrong. Apparently it's called "Electric Judment" or even "Emerald Lightning." Sadly, I don't have any official sources, only mentions of it on wikipedia (non-canon). But I've heard from people that these powers are demonstrated in the NJO series by Luke Skywalker and others. So it's not just the games (assuming this is correct) who show "light side" Jedi (non-sith) using the power.


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Old 04-10-2006, 11:01 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yeah, but "Sith Lightning" can be good in the games, and in the EU they just call it "electric justice" or some other such crap. It really doesn't make any sense.
You're right it doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan
All we know from the movies is that only two guys use lightning and it's bad. Oh wait, but Yoda used it [Insert angry fanboy saying that Yoda didn't "really" use lighting, he only reflected back, being the good non-violent fighter that he supposedly is]
Not this again!

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Originally Posted by Kurgan
There's so much confusion and lack of consistency in the Star Wars universe now. It's really there because Lucas decided to let his EU team do what they wanted, then he just decided to bulldoze it for the prequels, and instead of restarting the EU (which I think they should do now) he left them to try to make it all "fit" somehow. It's a big mess.
Basically the only way to look at it now is to view the EU and movie worlds as seperate entities (as Lucas suggests).

Obviously restarting the EU isn't going to happen (as desirable as it would be). I suggest LL uses a liberal use of the Infinities tag on most/all the stories that have major problems as a result of the movies. I don't have a problem with many of the EU stories existing, and I'm not saying they are good or bad (there is a lot of both). But shoehorning a story that doesn't fit because of major continuity issue into the continuity just cheapens both that story and the overall universe. Remove them from the timeline and let them exist as seperate stories as Infinities.

That being said, perhaps the Infinities label isn't really necessary. Star Wars has a canon hierarchy, from g-canon to c-canon on down. By all accounts the higher canon trumps the lower canon. So why aren't many of these stories be default removed from canon (retcons not withstanding)?

In an overly simplified view:

g-canon: Immortality (force ghost) state can only be achieved through selflessness, etc. and correct me if I'm wrong Qui-Gon was the first to discover it. Gone: all those Sith ghosts/spirits, Palpatine's return, etc.

g-canon: Lightning is a sith dark side power. Gone: all those lightside lightning stories.

etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chase Windu
I haven't been keeping up with the EU because most of my interest in it died with Chewbacca in that f-ed up NJO crap. So what's all this about "electric justice"? I hopw you're kidding.
Oh no. It's all good in the EU! I'm not sure of the original source, but it is mentioned as being used by Plo Koon (a Jedi Council member!) in the New Essential Guide to Characters. Apparently he uses this "controversial" lightning. I think it is a different colour too, green I think. LOL, apparently that matters.

Never mind the fact that g-canon says that only the Sith use lightning...

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Old 04-10-2006, 11:20 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
You're right it doesn't make any sense.

Not this again!
I just had to throw it in or else somebody else would, you know it would happen!

Quote:
Obviously restarting the EU isn't going to happen (as desirable as it would be).
It might seem a radical move, but I don't see why they couldn't do it, if other franchises have. I mean Star Trek still sells their novels and stuff even though none of it is considered canon. Marvel maintains multiple lines of continuity with their characters and has restarted certain lines like Spider-Man.

Quote:
I suggest LL uses a liberal use of the Infinities tag on most/all the stories that have major problems as a result of the movies. I don't have a problem with many of the EU stories existing, and I'm not saying they are good or bad (there is a lot of both). But shoehorning a story that doesn't fit because of major continuity issue into the continuity just cheapens both that story and the overall universe. Remove them from the timeline and let them exist as seperate stories as Infinities.
Yeah, but which ones to label infinities? Essentially labelling something Infinities is to decanonize it. That's no big deal. It's not as "radical" a solution as I'm proposing, since mine would decanonize the entire EU and just start it fresh (movies are the foundation everything else they can make up from there and make it fit this time).

Quote:
That being said, perhaps the Infinities label isn't really necessary. Star Wars has a canon hierarchy, from g-canon to c-canon on down. By all accounts the higher canon trumps the lower canon. So why aren't many of these stories be default removed from canon (retcons not withstanding)?
Yeah I don't know. Maybe they feel that if its thought to be part of the "real story of Star Wars" fans will be more likely to buy it (they forget how in other franchises non-canon stuff still gets bought because people either collect it, or they just like stuff connected to the franchise... I mean do they assume people buy Darth Tater and those superdeformed characters or the SW transformers because they are part of the "real story"?). Infinities is a gimmick because it's like "oh wow, some crazy stuff they couldn't possibly depict otherwise!" I think they have created this mystical reputation with fans that these are holy writings that were fact checked through Lucas's super computer to prevent inconsistencies. Since that's really just a myth, yeah, why should it matter? A person reading it just has to remember the movie and go "oh, well this part obviously wouldn't happen, but I can still enjoy it on its own merits" but I guess they think people are either too stupid or too lazy to do that. I don't think it's a bad thing, I think the fans can "handle it" they should just admit it doesn't all fit together perfectly, and maybe it's easier just to restart it. Then they can have their "it all fits together you know" attitude without all the clutter.

Quote:
In an overly simplified view:

g-canon: Immortality (force ghost) state can only be achieved through selflessness, etc. and correct me if I'm wrong Qui-Gon was the first to discover it. Gone: all those Sith ghosts/spirits, Palpatine's return, etc.
Yeah, sounds good. They could try and weasle their way out of the last part by claiming that Palpatine DOES figure out Plagueis's secret (and he really did know how to cheat death, Palpy didn't just make that part up... though one still wonders why Plagueis didn't use it himself to survive his own murder) and used it to come back. But yeah, I wasn't very partial to that story either, it's such a comic book cliche to kill off a villian and then bring him back, multiple times.

Quote:
g-canon: Lightning is a sith dark side power. Gone: all those lightside lightning stories.

etc.
Yep.

Quote:
Oh no. It's all good in the EU! I'm not sure of the original source, but it is mentioned as being used by Plo Koon (a Jedi Council member!) in the New Essential Guide to Characters. Apparently he uses this "controversial" lightning. I think it is a different colour too, green I think. LOL, apparently that matters.

Never mind the fact that g-canon says that only the Sith use lightning...
It does? I only recall that one bit from the original ROTJ novel that depict Luke being "shocked" by the "corruption" of such a power... is that what you mean? Or calling it "evil lightning." (Maybe I'm confusing part of the AOTC novelisation).

That's another pet peeve I have. See in your above quote, you mention this incident, which is just one more in the huge pile that basically says all these Republic era Jedi were "mavericks" and people bordering on the Dark Side. It's like they assume that because they've made Luke and Kyle Katarn into these easily tempted, flirting with the Dark Side of the Force, "break the rules and make up their own" kind of guys, that now all Jedi are like this. The Prequels portray all the Jedi, other than the obvious turncoat Anakin and the stubborn Qui Gon as fairly straight-laced, even complacent individuals. Now suddenly we've got Jedi sleeping around and having kids, using forbidden lightsaber styles, using the Dark Side, being controversial, voting Green Party. It's insane! I mean, okay, so they're trying to give characters more "depth" by making them edgy. Remember that Yaddle character who looked like Yoda with hair in Episode I? She smoked death sticks behind the Temple. And she cussed. A LOT! Remember that long necked guy? Porn addict... big time! That female Jedi with the weird headdress? Used the Force to seduce people, including Jar Jar Binks once! (and erased his memory afterward)

But nevermind, you never knew all that 'cause they kept it a secret, and they all died.

Gee wiz! Palpatine should have just hired some private investigaters and he wouldn't have needed Order 66, just get all these Jedi fired on corruption charges! Such wasted potential. But I digress with another rant, I apologize.


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Old 04-13-2006, 02:53 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It might seem a radical move, but I don't see why they couldn't do it, if other franchises have. I mean Star Trek still sells their novels and stuff even though none of it is considered canon. Marvel maintains multiple lines of continuity with their characters and has restarted certain lines like Spider-Man.
I just think they would never have the balls to do it. But frankly I'm glad there aren't multiple lines of continuity...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yeah, but which ones to label infinities?
The **** ones? That would be up for them to decide. Basically, I think they would just to have to more rigorously apply canon concepts now that we have the entire movie picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Infinities is a gimmick because it's like "oh wow, some crazy stuff they couldn't possibly depict otherwise!"
True enough. They could have another, similar label, or we could admit that a lot of the EU is just as crazy as some of the infinities stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I think they have created this mystical reputation with fans that these are holy writings that were fact checked through Lucas's super computer to prevent inconsistencies.
Or worse, that Lucas himself reads each book and provides feedback/guidance, or that the EU is all his ideas and his vision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I don't think it's a bad thing, I think the fans can "handle it" they should just admit it doesn't all fit together perfectly, and maybe it's easier just to restart it. Then they can have their "it all fits together you know" attitude without all the clutter.
It would just do so much good for the overall story to have it tie in better with the entire movie saga (and get rid of all the KJA stuff).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It does? I only recall that one bit from the original ROTJ novel that depict Luke being "shocked" by the "corruption" of such a power... is that what you mean? Or calling it "evil lightning." (Maybe I'm confusing part of the AOTC novelisation).
I'm referring to Lucas's comments on the AOTC commentary stating that lightning is a Sith power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's another pet peeve I have. See in your above quote, you mention this incident, which is just one more in the huge pile that basically says all these Republic era Jedi were "mavericks" and people bordering on the Dark Side. It's like they assume that because they've made Luke and Kyle Katarn into these easily tempted, flirting with the Dark Side of the Force, "break the rules and make up their own" kind of guys, that now all Jedi are like this...It's insane! I mean, okay, so they're trying to give characters more "depth" by making them edgy.
It is really the silly mean/rude/*******/punk = cool mentality. This seems to have been applied freely to the NJO Jedi, which is a shame...

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Old 04-13-2006, 07:38 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I just think they would never have the balls to do it. But frankly I'm glad there aren't multiple lines of continuity...
So just label the current EU "infinities" and start up a new EU line that follows the current six movie saga. It means more money for them. It would piss off die-hard EU fans, but it would please many more fans I think, who either don't follow the EU, haven't followed it or are disgusted with all the contradictions and retconning.

Quote:
The **** ones? That would be up for them to decide. Basically, I think they would just to have to more rigorously apply canon concepts now that we have the entire movie picture.
If they restart the EU, that doesn't mean they can't use ideas from the old EU in the "new" continuity. You could re-imagine Thrawn as a (human) upstart Imperial officer who escaped with his Star Destroyer after the DSII blew up, regrouped with some fellow Imperials and tried to attack some New Republic posts.

Quote:
Or worse, that Lucas himself reads each book and provides feedback/guidance, or that the EU is all his ideas and his vision.
I agree. Before ROTS I heard lots of people defend the EU by saying something along the lines of "Lucas reads all of it and gives it his personal feedback and approval!" When in reality (with few exceptions, like the ROTS novelisation for one) I'm told he's just given summaries or rough drafts to give a stamp to, if that. He makes them sign off on some part of the story they're not "supposed to touch" like the period of the Clone Wars or the history of the Sith (even though BOTH those topics have been written about, oops) because he's going to. Or he'll even give them some feedback, then change his mind and boom you've got a contradiction! He obviously doesn't provide a whole lot of oversight for the most part or you wouldn't have multiple stories of the capture of the Death Star plans or multiple stories of Boba Fett's escape from the Sarlacc and return, or multiple stories of Boba Fett's origin... and being contradicted what's implied in the movies now. Lucas said he let Fett be brought back in the EU because the fans wanted it and he was so popular even though Lucas himself was "baffled" and "surprised" by the character's popularity and that he intended for the character to die in ROTJ, and only had he known how popular he was going to be with fans, he might have given him a more glorious death, or even edited in a scene of him escaping (he joked).

Quote:
It would just do so much good for the overall story to have it tie in better with the entire movie saga (and get rid of all the KJA stuff).
I say restart it and you won't have to worry about picking and choosing parts of this story or that story (which is how it is now, you're just supposed to read it and ignore certain parts or retcon them in your mind if you were writing some continuous narrative of the "real star wars story").


Quote:
I'm referring to Lucas's comments on the AOTC commentary stating that lightning is a Sith power.
Can you post his exact words? I seem to remember something along those lines where he said the Emperor uses these Sith powers, so I wanted to introduce them with Dooku or something like that? Because clearly he shows Yoda using "Sith powers" here too. So Jedi can use "Sith powers." The movies themselves never label a power as "Jedi" or "Sith" (though Qui Gon Jinn does proclaim Darth Maul to be "well trained in the Jedi arts"... at least Grievous being trained in the "Jedi arts" makes some sense since Dooku was a Jedi, though he has no force ability, so he must just mean saber fighting).

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It is really the silly mean/rude/*******/punk = cool mentality. This seems to have been applied freely to the NJO Jedi, which is a shame...
Right, but I see it as this Mary Sue type thing. People write books about the kind of things THEY would do if THEY suddenly had Jedi powers. They'd be these badasses who used the force to win at gambling, get girls, and avoid speeding tickets. They'd be all dark and gloomy and edgy and "gray" and better fighters than the movie characters. The movie Jedi are fairly straight-laced and rather "boring" as characters, so they don't fit into this badass punk attitude that the EU Jedi seem to be drawn to. I mean even Mace Windu, whom everybody proclaimed as a "badass" just because he was played by Samuel L. Jackson, who was in Jackie Brown, Pulp Fiction and Shaft, so he was typecast as a "badass" character (even though his Jedi persona mostly just wandered around and sat in a chair talking... I mean sure he killed Jango Fett, but so what? Jango was just some thug for hire in a suit of armor and no force powers. It wasn't until ROTS that he was shown to have any exceptional ability at all... and that was compared to his fellow "Jedi Masters" who just stood there and let Sideous cut them down like idiots). Mace Windu's "attitude" is limited to two lines "I don't think so" (which Obi-Wan also utters, how many people call Obi-Wan a "badass mofo"?) and "he's too dangerous to be left alive" (with a certain maleovolence).

Of course the EU plays it up and says that he uses some "forbidden" lightsaber style that "borders on the Dark Side" and that he has some super power seeing "shatterpoints" and that his lightsaber is something special (not just an unusual color). But I think the "badass Jedi" attitude is largely unsupported by the prequels and undeserved. If anything, the badass Jedi are the ones who betrayed the order and turned evil, and guess what? They all get killed! The only one who was redeemable was Anakin, and that took 20 years and he still died for it. In the EU you have Jedi turning to the dark side left and right, and turning back is no big deal really. Plus they get away with so much crap.


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Old 04-29-2006, 07:56 AM   #143
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Maybe anikan wasnt the chosen one? because the chosen one sided with the jedi in the end shouldnt he just kindof destroy the force?and he never truly left the lightside(i think its coz he failed to kill him master) and then luke skywalker started a jedi academy isnt Vader meant to kindof stop the force from being used and he wasnt really the powerful he couldnt do any extreme jedi or sith moves i mean by the end of episode 3 he was okish but he lost to a jedi(but obi-wan was one of the best jedi) isnt the chosen one meant to bring balance to the force so no jedi or sith would ever exist but then tavion came alone(jedi knights game series) theres to many things that arent propally tied up.
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:31 AM   #144
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... Anakin was the Chosen one. He did bring balance to the Force by destroying the Emperor.
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Old 04-29-2006, 01:27 PM   #145
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... Anakin was the Chosen one. He did bring balance to the Force by destroying the Emperor.
and by destroying himself.



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Old 05-01-2006, 02:35 PM   #146
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and by destroying himself.
Not necessarily. More specifically he destroyed the Sith known as Vader by being redeemed.

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Old 05-02-2006, 06:36 AM   #147
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So... they were right about him bringing balance to the force, they just didnt realise he'd take the elaborate route in doing so.
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:19 PM   #148
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That's an understatement.

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Old 05-02-2006, 02:49 PM   #149
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Just reread some dusty old comic, and realize Ani is actually quite similar to Ulic when it comes to events concerning his rise and fall, in a loose way.
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Old 05-02-2006, 04:43 PM   #150
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Just reread some dusty old comic, and realize Ani is actually quite similar to Ulic when it comes to events concerning his rise and fall, in a loose way.
Are the Ulic comics worth reading?



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Old 05-03-2006, 07:44 PM   #151
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Well, its interesting to get to know how the whole thing goes, with like ancient sith spirit and what not. And the Redemption part is interesting also.

I am still missing one book (only got that one in digital) and its not easy to find where I am ... even for reprints.
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