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Old 04-30-2006, 12:16 AM   #1
Darth Windu
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Melee Combat in KotOR3

Okay, I was thinking about melee combat and the various changes that people want to make to it.

For the most part, I think melee combat is fine, but there could be improvements. For example, Neverwinter Nights has a lot more feats, abilities etc relating to combat than KotOR does. Sure, its a more complex game in general, but thats not a bad thing.

What I'm looking at is adding, for example, 'Parry' feats. In other words, using these feats makes it easier for the player to bat aside the opponents blade and maybe get a good hit in, and would be related to your DEX modifier. You could also add a 'Block' series of feats to stop opponents attacks, which would be related to your STR modifier.

Thoughts?


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Old 04-30-2006, 01:07 AM   #2
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ummm this sounds exactly like DarkLord152 topic on blocking. Are you saying the same thing as him or is it completley differnt?
Im confuzzled right now.
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:31 AM   #3
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Hi All - first post.. My take on this, and a number of similar posts, is people are searching for a more natural \ realistic fighting system. I dont think the majority want a jedi academy remake, however the pauses between turns are irritating, and i dont think i should have to 'hit' an opponent so many times with a lightsaber! A method of blocking (automated) which would be effected by, for example, a fatigue system would be an option rather than hit points which is feeling outdated in most games today..
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Old 04-30-2006, 10:54 AM   #4
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No. Keep the combat system where it is. There's noting wrong with the D20 system.
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Old 04-30-2006, 11:21 AM   #5
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Hitpoints feel outdated? Strange, since every game uses at the core hitpoint calculations, be it a rpg, shooter or rts...


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Old 04-30-2006, 03:41 PM   #6
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How about more naturally looking motions. When you use certain melee actions, they seem to look like a repetative dance. How about more natural looking movements.

I woudn't mind seeing some punches. When the PC is too close to the character, they execute a melee technique, but they deliver punches to set their oponnent off balance.

If I were to use a sword and saw a chance, I would deliver a few punches or jabs.



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Old 04-30-2006, 03:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
No. Keep the combat system where it is. There's noting wrong with the D20 system.
I agree. I only want it to look sexier.
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Old 04-30-2006, 04:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Com Raven
Hitpoints feel outdated? Strange, since every game uses at the core hitpoint calculations, be it a rpg, shooter or rts...
You dont feel that something is lacking when constantly hitting an individual with something that passes through just about anything? Ok they could be glancing blows but i would think a RPG (ie skill based combat) where you decide tactics \ approach etc (rather than FPS style action) and the aim is to engineer an opening for a single killing blow could be a different and rewarding way of going about things.

My point regarding hit points is based on the fact that there is a degree of discussion on the topic (on most gaming sites) which could mean we are looking for something else..
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deguj001
You dont feel that something is lacking when constantly hitting an individual with something that passes through just about anything? Ok they could be glancing blows but i would think a RPG (ie skill based combat) where you decide tactics \ approach etc (rather than FPS style action) and the aim is to engineer an opening for a single killing blow could be a different and rewarding way of going about things.
Hmmm...perhaps you should try making a 100% realistic game and play it. See if it's fun, then come back.
There's a reason why simulators are few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deguj001
My point regarding hit points is based on the fact that there is a degree of discussion on the topic (on most gaming sites) which could mean we are looking for something else..
This made no sense.

In regards to the main topic of the thread, a "riposte" type feat could be interesting but "parrying" and "blocking" are already part of the game.


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Old 04-30-2006, 05:59 PM   #10
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I wouldn't like a change in the combat system. Personally I think its fine the way that they have it.


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Old 04-30-2006, 07:28 PM   #11
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Well, I do think the combat animations could be a little more varied, not to mention detailed. What I usually see is characters clashing blades, and then the damage numbers pop up. It almost looks like a parrying contest. Where are the feints, the distinct moves and posture of each lightsaber form? As for unarmed combat, it looks a bit more realistic than in the first game, but I think it would still have even more detailed moves. You could have throws, grapples, palm strikes, that sort of thing.


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Old 05-01-2006, 01:12 AM   #12
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Well.... I think that the combat system's fine the way it is... I'd just like some graphic changes...
The way its made now the combat consists of 3second rounds until one person is defeated. I think the rounds should consist of 1.5s animations, that can be linked and changed to make different animations each time (although I doubt they'd do that). Alos, sometimes there are pauses in combat that go up to 0.5 s, which is lot if you're in the middle of the action. What I wanto to see is if that you praryes an attack, you should attack Imediately after that.

Another thig I'd like to see is that while you fight, depending on which moves you use, the fight would shift slightly to the left/right or forward/backward. AKA, like when Luke fights Vader in RoTJ, he "pushes" vader back into a corner when he is fighting him.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:18 AM   #13
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Okay, getting back to the point, I am NOT, repeat NOT suggesting that we abandon the d20 system.

I assume that NWN uses the d20 system because it is very similar to KotOR, just more complex which is what I'm looking at - adding some more complexity into KotOR combat, not changing it from its base.


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Old 05-01-2006, 06:14 AM   #14
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they should just update how it looks so if ur ds more like sidious style(stabs) and ls more like windu(bloking) but i would like a yoda style just for fun
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
For the most part, I think melee combat is fine, but there could be improvements. For example, Neverwinter Nights has a lot more feats, abilities etc relating to combat than KotOR does. Sure, its a more complex game in general, but thats not a bad thing.
I don't know if KOTOR needs more combat feats. NWN has a lot more weapons styles and thus proficiency feats. Off the top of my head I can't remember what all the extra feats were, but for the most part I am happy enough with the current KOTOR set. Perhaps you could expand the lightsaber form feats into feat trees...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
What I'm looking at is adding, for example, 'Parry' feats. In other words, using these feats makes it easier for the player to bat aside the opponents blade and maybe get a good hit in, and would be related to your DEX modifier. You could also add a 'Block' series of feats to stop opponents attacks, which would be related to your STR modifier.
I don't think that is necessary. Actions that you are talking about are pretty much rolled up into the attack/defense rolls already. For example, blocking a lightsaber attack is already refected in your defense when holding a lightsaber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deguj001
Hi All - first post.. My take on this, and a number of similar posts, is people are searching for a more natural \ realistic fighting system. I dont think the majority want a jedi academy remake, however the pauses between turns are irritating
That pause is a result of the animations, and not neccesarily the mechanics themselves. It would be better to just improve the animations to get rid of that pause. However, it would be nice to be able to adjust your characters positioning in combat, a la NWN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deguj001
and i dont think i should have to 'hit' an opponent so many times with a lightsaber! A method of blocking (automated) which would be effected by, for example, a fatigue system would be an option rather than hit points which is feeling outdated in most games today..
So basically you are proposing the use of the actual damage points/vitality points system that I think is already implemented by the real d20 system. I think that is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
No. Keep the combat system where it is. There's noting wrong with the D20 system.
He isn't talking about getting rid of the d20 system. NWN also uses d20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Com Raven
Hitpoints feel outdated? Strange, since every game uses at the core hitpoint calculations, be it a rpg, shooter or rts...
They are outdated in the sense that they do not accurately reflect what they are trying to represent, and better systems exist. Hitpoints are used to show how much damage a character can take before dying or whatever. The problem is that system doesn't really work and breaks down as the character progresses and gains hitpoints.

For example at the end of KOTOR and TSL, you can have what, like 200+ hitpoints? That means that my character could take a Mandalorian assault rifle and shoot himself in the head multiple times and laugh it off. To me, that's broken.

It is also outdated, since d20 now uses a better system. It has two measures of "health" that can help solve this problem to some degree. It has vitality points and wound points. The first reflects your characters to ability to just avoid and escape from "hits". Would points reflect the actual damage your character can stand and is based on your constitution (and thus is of a low number, say 15 points or so) and doesn't increase with level.

So the concepts of damage and a hit change slightly with this system. A normal "hit" from a weapon reduces vitality points, which in essense means the character has dodged a close call and has become a bit more fatigued as a result. Once the characters vitality points have been reduced, the damage goes directly to wound points and represents the character getting physically hurt. The other way to get hit is with critical hits, where the damage ignores vitality points and directly affects wound points.

So this helps solve some of the issues mentioned in this thread. In lightsaber combat, a normal "hit" doesn't directly connect with a character, and thus isn't chopping arms off and the like. Animation-wise this could be reflected with a close dodge or something. When the characters vitality points run out or on a critical hit, the damage goes against the wound points directly and (considering the damage caused from a lightsaber) will probably kill the character. Then we have our one hit kills from lightsaber strikes.

It also solves the other problem with my character surviving shooting himself in the head. Such a situation the damage would go directly to wound points since he isn't trying dodge or defend against the strike. His head is rightfully blown off in spectacular fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
I woudn't mind seeing some punches. When the PC is too close to the character, they execute a melee technique, but they deliver punches to set their oponnent off balance.
This is somewhat done already animation-wise with kicks. That could certainly be expanded. Perhaps as a part of your attack action list (flurry, power attack, etc.) there could be an option to use a hand to hand attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChewKluYa
We need real-time combat!
We have that already.

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Old 05-01-2006, 12:25 PM   #16
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Right - Prime translated my throughts quite well. No need to move from d20 (its an excellent base), but increase the element of strategy and thereby the number of possible approaches available. Which is what i thought Darth was suggesting.

As for the comment regarding simulations not being fun, i agree, however we are miles away from that.

If anyone here is old enough to remember the paper based RPGs Twighlight 2000 or maybe even call of Cthulhu - it was damn hard to hit people (because people took cover etc), but if you did, with say a machine gun, they were pretty much toast.
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:30 PM   #17
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I've already said some of this in another thread, but this is how i would like it (just my opinion).

Change melee vs melee animations to be better, it should be possible to re-do them to include things such as jumping over opponents, and maybe allow players to end animations in a different place from where they started. I'll use episode 3 as an example:

The dooku fight scene early on, none of the characters stand there randomly hitting each other with sabers, they constantly move. The attacking character tends to move towards whomever is on the defensive. This should be possible in the game too, i'd like to see the enemy backpedaling while i unlease a series of quick hits with flurry. The way characters start and end whole battles in the exact same spot really irks me, they should be moving past each other, jumping over each other, and generally circling each other like in any melee fight!

Since the game knows of the next attack will be the killing blow, why not have special animations for the "death blow"? I dont nessicerily mean lopping of heads, but chopping off an enemys hand before stabbing them in the stomach would look damn cool in the game. Even better if they could somehow make the lightsaber fall to the ground and dis-ignite (not a word).

Its my personal opinion that theres nothing really wrong with the games combat engine, it just needs better animations. as long as the players POSE ends as it started it should be entirely possible to include players moving around in combat animations (thats how force jump for guardians works in game).

I also belive lightsabers land their blows far too often, lightsaber attacks should be blocked 90% of the time, but still do some damager. (i mean LOOK like it was blocked, not have the d20 system cripple lightsaber attacks). I mean, look at any of the movies, whenever a lightsaber lands a blow it makes its mark! yet in the game you can slice away for far too long,

Heck, even if they just released some kinda of tool or plugin to allow modders to change the animations easier, i've never done animations (only modeling) but if it meant i could add cool attacks i know i would try to learn, and i'm sure many would follow suit.]

Aaaand rant over
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:50 PM   #18
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The D20 game engine is fine enough for me. I was quite pleased when I first played KOTOR. I would like to see a more fluid animation. What I think would be cool and Rob suggested this was that the animation show for each kind of lightsaber form. To add a few punches in close combat sounds good because that is natural reaction to combat.

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Old 05-01-2006, 09:51 PM   #19
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I think Prime's idea is the best I've heard yet, but to me, seeing my char getting direct hits 20 times and still survive doesn't matter that much. I mean, it has been this for what...the last...err...always? The FPS community can't even use any excuses, none of their damage models have ever truly 100% reflect the reality. Some come close and they happen to be for niche markets for a certain reason.
I guess it comes down to getting a headshot in should do more damage...but even Prime's idea won't solve this. Some will whine on why can't they directly hit the head or why are they stupid enough to miss the head several times. In the end, I think it will barely satisfy some people.


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Old 05-02-2006, 10:31 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I guess it comes down to getting a headshot in should do more damage...but even Prime's idea won't solve this.
This case would be handled by a critical hit. Such a shot directly to the head would result in damage going directly to wound points, and thus be potentially fatal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Some will whine on why can't they directly hit the head or why are they stupid enough to miss the head several times. In the end, I think it will barely satisfy some people.
Actually, this is more or less already covered by sniper shot. Increasing the critical threat range of the weapon essentially means a better chance of hitting a critical (no pun intended) area, like the head.

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Old 05-02-2006, 06:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Okay, I was thinking about melee combat and the various changes that people want to make to it.

For the most part, I think melee combat is fine, but there could be improvements. For example, Neverwinter Nights has a lot more feats, abilities etc relating to combat than KotOR does. Sure, its a more complex game in general, but thats not a bad thing.

What I'm looking at is adding, for example, 'Parry' feats. In other words, using these feats makes it easier for the player to bat aside the opponents blade and maybe get a good hit in, and would be related to your DEX modifier. You could also add a 'Block' series of feats to stop opponents attacks, which would be related to your STR modifier.

Thoughts?
That's exactly what I want a block feat.


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Old 05-02-2006, 09:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Actually, this is more or less already covered by sniper shot. Increasing the critical threat range of the weapon essentially means a better chance of hitting a critical (no pun intended) area, like the head.
That's not exactly what I meant but yeah, it does make sense.

I was thinking about people whining on why they can't use their personal skills to aim better.


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Old 05-03-2006, 11:33 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I was thinking about people whining on why they can't use their personal skills to aim better.
Because they are playing the wrong game.

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Old 05-04-2006, 03:45 AM   #24
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Well, it would also be interesting if more possibilities were added to unarmed combat, for all the people out there who have beaten KOTOR and TSL so many times, they go unarmed just for the heck of it. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing unarmed combat as a fully feasible choice. Jedi classes in TSL already get damage boosts to that, so...


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.

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Old 05-04-2006, 11:35 AM   #25
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I think to a large extent it is feasible now.

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Old 05-04-2006, 11:51 AM   #26
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maybe they could make it a bit less like still and more like back flips and stuff
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Old 05-04-2006, 02:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
How about more naturally looking motions. When you use certain melee actions, they seem to look like a repetative dance. How about more natural looking movements.

I woudn't mind seeing some punches. When the PC is too close to the character, they execute a melee technique, but they deliver punches to set their oponnent off balance.

If I were to use a sword and saw a chance, I would deliver a few punches or jabs.
I have the same opinion. Kotor is an easy game and will always be, dont expect any challenging fights, where you have to choose the right "tactical" moves.
While it wouldn't hurt to have more feats and combat abilites, if i want a change to the combat, i'd choose better looking motions. That is what i really like in Kotor.
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I think to a large extent it is feasible now.

Yes, and that's because the game is quite easy even on the hard difficulty. Truth it, it isn't a good option if the game was harder.


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Old 05-04-2006, 08:17 PM   #29
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Well, yes... unarmed combat still doesn't hit hard enough. The unarmed deflection powers may come in handy, but there's still something missing.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 05-05-2006, 10:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Yes, and that's because the game is quite easy even on the hard difficulty. Truth it, it isn't a good option if the game was harder.
Indeed. It would be nice to actually be hit once in a while.

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Old 05-16-2006, 01:10 PM   #31
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Blocking and parrying feats would be a nice addition. I like the idea of "deathblow" attacks though. Finishing a fight by cutting off a hand would be cool, for a Jedi. Save the lopping off of heads to the Sith, if you decide to go darkside.


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Old 05-16-2006, 08:02 PM   #32
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I'm also partial to the idea of being able to grab your opponents by the neck and throw them around.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 05-16-2006, 08:20 PM   #33
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Yes, a lifetime of training should allow you to do the ultimate combat move: grab your opponents by the neck and throw them around.

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Old 05-16-2006, 08:38 PM   #34
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That reminds me of the iknowkungfu cheat on JA. Now that was fun. Too bad you got stuck at the next force point allocation screen though.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 05-17-2006, 05:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
That reminds me of the iknowkungfu cheat on JA. Now that was fun. Too bad you got stuck at the next force point allocation screen though.
Why, oh why do I have to learn of all the best things too late!!??
I've deleted JA long ago and have since borrowed it to a guy who managed to lose it!!

On topic:

I'm mostly ambivalent when it comes to the KoTOR fighting system. I like the existing fighting system, but I wouldn't mind if it was improved, or even replaced with a good real time fighting system.

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Old 05-18-2006, 09:24 AM   #36
Buzz1978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igyman
I'm mostly ambivalent when it comes to the KoTOR fighting system. I like the existing fighting system, but I wouldn't mind if it was improved, or even replaced with a good real time fighting system.
Maybe I'm oldschool but IMO real time is good for FPS but really really bad for *every* RPG. I would be really pissed if K3 would become Jedi Knight 4 even if I really enjoyed hopping around like a flea on speed in Jedi Academy. The combat system of Kotor is next to perfect but the visualization is weak and needs improvement.
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