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Old 04-08-2006, 09:21 PM   #1
XI33
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Lightbulb Single-blade Fighting in kotor 3

Somthing that realy needs to be fixed in kotor 3 is the single-bladed lighsaber fighting. In kotor 1 and kotor 2 the single-bladed 1 lightsaber fighting was dull and unefective and there was no real advantage to it. In kotor 3 single-blade style should include alot faster moves, provide a major dexterity bonous with lots of parrying moves,which would make it good for defence, and it should be a lot easyer on the eyes to use. Although it should still be less efective then a double blade or duel weilding light saber style in terms of damage.

Last edited by XI33; 04-08-2006 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 04-08-2006, 10:06 PM   #2
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Hmm. I didn't have any problems with it, but I wouldn't mind any new changes to saber combat.

While we're on the topic of saber combat, does anyone else agree that the dual melee weapon animations in K2 were horrendous?


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Old 04-08-2006, 10:26 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XI33
Somthing that realy needs to be fixed in kotor 3 is the single-bladed lighsaber fighting. In kotor 1 and kotor 2 the single-bladed 1 lightsaber fighting was dull and unefective and there was no real advantage to it. In kotor 3 single-blade style should include alot faster moves, provide a major dexterity bonous with lots of parrying moves,which would make it good for defence, and it should be a lot easyer on the eyes to use. Although it should still be less efective then a double blade or duel weilding light saber style in terms of damage.
I'll agree with you there, you had to have a high stregth attribute or be a high level character to match a dual-bladed lightsaber's damage potential with a single saber equipped. Although that problem was solved (in my opinion) when the USM was released, there was a lightsaber in there that had a lightsaber on one end and a metal blade on the other end, I think it was one of T7Nowhere's models.



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Old 04-08-2006, 10:43 PM   #4
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Yes maby, but it still is not quick enough and is not very easy on the eyes it should look a lot more like the movies. I mean did you see the high level flury in kotor 2 all he did was turn around backwards. Th single bladed combat should look a little more yoda and a little less vader.
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Old 04-08-2006, 11:46 PM   #5
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First of all I think you make a good point regarding single weapon combat and to carry on from what you were saying about a better ability to parry.

I hate when either you or your opponent make the neccessary saves to avoid being hit the animation is still the same, appearing to the eye that damage should have been done. I would like to see animations specific to saves in the shape of parry/block animations. This will make fights more cenematic as movement from offence to defence will flow and not seem so turn based.

And the more you improve on single weapon combat you unlock better parry/block moves with more flamboyant cinematics.
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Old 04-08-2006, 11:51 PM   #6
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I agree, especially when you look at the difference between the 'Two Weapon Fighting' and 'Duelling' feats. For example, I gave Mira all of the duelling feats but none of the two weapon fighting ones, and yet when I armed her with two lightsabres, she had an offhand attack rating of about 30!

What I would to see is the bonuses for Duelling doubled (at least) and also impose a force penalty for using two weapons. After all, Jedi use their hands to use the Force, so it would be a bit harder if you're holding something at the time.


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Old 04-09-2006, 12:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XI33
Yes maby, but it still is not quick enough and is not very easy on the eyes it should look a lot more like the movies. I mean did you see the high level flury in kotor 2 all he did was turn around backwards. Th single bladed combat should look a little more yoda and a little less vader.
I kind of liked having the single lightsaber with the double saber animations, at the very least it's a change of pace.



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Old 04-09-2006, 01:21 AM   #8
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They should have a One-Handed Lightsaber Form, like Malak did.


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Old 04-09-2006, 01:24 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reclaimer
They should have a One-Handed Lightsaber Form, like Malak did.
Hopefully we'll be able to implement that ourselves in the near future (replacing the single-handed animations with Malak/Nihilus anyways).



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Old 04-09-2006, 01:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
Hopefully we'll be able to implement that ourselves in the near future (replacing the single-handed animations with Malak/Nihilus anyways).
Yes, hopefully. Only time will tell.


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Old 04-09-2006, 06:27 AM   #11
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well revans like amazing form was with dual but the forms should apply to all of them really, Single sabers do have alot of advantages with master flurry it takes of alot or it did with me but i had some quality crystals they should improve it but im not sure they will because then there wouldnt be as much of a big deal about the sabers if they all where amazing
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Old 04-09-2006, 07:06 AM   #12
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I agree with you guys on this...

Al Jedi Guardians would use Dual Wield, especially in Kotor 2, with the Jedi Weapon Master class. Since the level cap of Kotor 2 is raised, i also found myself using dual wield with a sentinel.

Only when i play consular i have a single saber.

In the game however, it's totally different. Like posted before, Revan's style is amazing, and Malak's as well. Don't forget Nihilus and Sion...

I agree they should make it cooler. I always found wielding one saber cooler, but it's simply inefficient compared to other forms. Maybe they could look at the way Jedi Knight solves this 'problem.' They made all the fighting styles available for the single-wield, and the staff-saber and dual-wield could only have 1 of the three forms. This way, single-saber users could switch to the situation, while the others couldn't.

My idea:
Just add another feat-chain next to duelling, to increase the efficiency. Jedi Weapon masters could select some seriously sick feats, but they were only effective using dual-wield.

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Old 04-09-2006, 09:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleOfHarpenden
the forms should apply to all of them really,
Actually, this bugged me just a tiny bit in TSL, though the cool factor of the forms outweighed this decrease in realism for me.

Technically, a form couldn't apply to all 3 weapon systems. Fighting with one saber is very different from fighting with 2, and both of those are very different from fighting with a 2-handed weapon. The attacks and defenses are entirely different for all 3 (and I'll let jimbofett elaborate on it since he's the one who does sword-fighting in our history re-enactment group).
Having done a number of forms/kata in martial arts, I can also tell you that certain moves in certain forms could only apply to one system, because the hand positions won't allow anything else. Granted the vast majority of forms are meant solely for unarmed combat, but if you only have one hand free in a form, it means the other one can't be holding a second sword or the other side of a 2-handed sword.

That being said, it's just a game, I should really just relax.


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Old 04-09-2006, 11:57 AM   #14
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In my opinion Double-blades,Duel weilding and single blades should all have pros and cons. How it should work is a single blade gives you the most defence and force but the lowest amount of damage. Duel weilding should give you the most damage but render your force powers usless,do to lack of avalible hands, and offers moderate defence bonouses. The double blade should offer a great deal of damage with the ability to use the force but it should offer the lowest defence rate.
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Technically, a form couldn't apply to all 3 weapon systems.
True. The seven lightsaber forms we learn in the game are all single-blade forms. There is actually a unique form for two lightsabers, and I'm not sure about double-bladed.

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Old 04-09-2006, 05:45 PM   #16
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I have an idea.

When using a saberstaff, you should have the option to activate one blade on the staff, kind of like when Maul fought Qui-gon for the first time. With only one blade activated, you can use your single-saber forms all you want. Then when you run into a tough boss or multiple jedi opponents, you can activate the second blade for an added damage bonus. Plus the double-bladed forms should have an advantage/disadvantage verses the single-bladed forms.

Using just one blade on a saberstaff is just kinda cool IMO.


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Old 04-09-2006, 07:13 PM   #17
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i agree with post #1 ,

Cause i played alots kotor 1 and 2 , i know alots how the stats work and yeah single light saber is very useless , and more in kotor 2 than 1 cause you can reach 30 def (the maximum defence you can get ) easy wiout so much dex in kotor 1 .

and in kotor 2 this so useless cause the level limit is 50 ( to much i think useless you can reach it wiout using glitch)

i think single lightsaber should make more dmg than dual's .. sound nonsense ? lets me explain , just use a baseball bat if its will hit stronger with 1 hand than 2 hand , realy dont think. and anyway its lots more acurate with 2 hands.

they should add "forme ,Stance's" only for single , dual's,double blanded weapon.

and different animation's for each stance , its should make the game more interesting. and enemies to should be able to use form's , and them personal form to.

A new combat system should be good using jade empire one. to bring the game to the next lvl , no more semi-real time rpg to real time rpg.
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
A new combat system should be good using jade empire one. to bring the game to the next lvl , no more semi-real time rpg to real time rpg.
How many times must this come up?

Anyway, I mostly agree with everything said though I think a simple rebalancing of the numbers is enough to even things out.
As for different forms fitting only particular saber configuration, I'm not a fan of that. I think it makes it a bit too restricting for nothing. Afterall, it is Star Wars and these are force users we're talking about. Reality cannot simply be applied blindly. I find it unnecessary.


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Old 04-10-2006, 12:45 AM   #19
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Each form should have different animations. Like jar'kai you could do a bit o acrobatic feats.



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Old 04-11-2006, 09:03 AM   #20
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ye but lokking different on each form really goes without saying, maybe u should be able to learn like the sitr lords forms(revans dual saber 1+ sions healing 1) so each saber and there type would be like amazing but single saber is definatley the weakest no matter what crystals yu put in in the end my single took of 11-37 but it was still pritty much destroyed but my dual 1 who took off like 20 each hit, but i guess singles meant to be the weakest because you only hit once with it where as the others you hit twice. But i have found that with a single saber u hit more often that with dual or staff might just be a fluke but i think with single u have a better chance of hitting thats why all the sith lords use it.
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:20 AM   #21
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A single saber is hardly weak. You can get a high to-hit bonus without wasting feats on two-weapon fighting. You can then spend more feats on other things like the flurry, improved critical, and power attack trees. Personally I found that the single saber is more effective when fighting bosses.

All the damage in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit anything.

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Old 04-11-2006, 02:24 PM   #22
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You cant deny that dual wield and staff are undoubtedly stronger. Heck, dualwield is stronger alone by the fact that they can use double the crystals.

Apart from that it is also double damage... at the cost of what? 3 Defense? A slightly lower chance to hit? (which is actually nothign since your attributes are high)

My wish for Kotor 3 woudl be that they buff the damage of single saber and give a significant parry/swiftness/critical/etc chance.
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Old 04-17-2006, 02:48 PM   #23
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well single isnt exactly terrible i mean i use it and i hit alot and it doesnt take a long time 2 get good with u dont need any attributes with it unlike dual and staffs, so single is for getting better faster but dual and staff are ultimately better
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Old 04-17-2006, 03:29 PM   #24
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It definately needs to be easier on the eyes. Single blade should be faster than double, I'm thinking Mustafar duel speed when you've got to a high level. Maybe the animations could change with LS and DS alignments. A more aggressive technique when DS etc.
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Old 04-18-2006, 07:28 AM   #25
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Yes, single is not terrible, but it could be if the game would actually be challenging. But it is extremely easy, therefore the fact that dual wield is nearly double as strong as single isnt that obvious.

Mustafar duel speed in Kotor?

Unlike "old" games which use the d&d system, the attack animation in Kotor shows a few attacks and parries (3 generally when not using a special attack), but that counts as one attack round. After that the enemy can do the same, this is the reason the fights still dont look as perfect as we would like them to be. And unlike they give the d&d system up, this problem cant be solved ...i think!
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Old 04-18-2006, 01:12 PM   #26
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I think there definitely should be better sabre balancing. Perhaps something like this:

1. Short - limited to one handed use only, speed bonus/power penalty.
2. Single - two handed use, average all round/No penalties.
3. Dual Short - massive speed bonus/average power/defence penalty.
4. Double bladed - massive power bonus/minute speed bonus/large defence penalty.

Just some of my rough ideas. Polished up, I think they would add a whole new element to lightsabre design, and you could gather the required parts to decrease the penalties.
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Old 04-18-2006, 02:30 PM   #27
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well single isnt exactly rubish but you can put the skills on other things what do i need 2 make my single attack really strong or dont i need anything other than a good weapon
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Old 05-20-2006, 08:22 AM   #28
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Well maybe if you pay attention to the game if you use single melle wepons you have a much higher accuracy than a double weilder! DUhhh
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Old 05-20-2006, 03:23 PM   #29
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Personally I don't mind the old style lightsaber fighting in the OT movies. Like in Ep 3 it's fast and exciting sure, but there's the OT style just seems more dramatic and epic to me...

They're both good, maybe have different styles to choose which you want?
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Old 05-20-2006, 05:35 PM   #30
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I like single saber for historical purposes: that's how they used it in Star Wars. However, I dislike the way everybody is constantly out of position when using it (both movies and games). If you think about your single saber as being both your offense and defense, it only makes sense that you have to keep it out in front of you at all times. You cannot block a shot from your opponent if you are swinging your saber above your head or off to the side.

In my opinion, based on my experience with medieval armored combat, the best way to use a single saber is to treat it as a bastard sword. You hold it vertically, tipped forward slightly, about waist high, with both hands about six inches apart. The higher hand acts as a fulcrum, while the lower hand moves the pommel. It only takes a small, quick snap of the lower hand to make the tip of the blade move very quickly. In fact, this is the fastest weapon used in our combat.

Using two sabers would give you the opportunity to attack with both (which is very effective), or defend with one and attack with the other, or even defend with both (though why you would want to is beyond me). I don't like the idea of using a regular light saber with one hand. I know it is light enough (pun intended ), but it is too long. Using only one hand to swing a long sword is not as fast as using two hands. I think that you should be restricted to using short sabers if you go with two.

The double saber is the best system for defending yourself because you can cover your legs without lowering your saber. The shot selection is a little more limited with it because you have to avoid injuring yourself with the back end of the weapon.

Here is how I would design the three melee/saber weapon systems used in KOTOR:

Single Saber Moderate attack, moderate damage, moderate defense
Two Sabers Highest attack, lowest damage per saber, moderate defense
Double Saber Lowest attack, highest damage, highest defense

I love Star Wars, and I love how cool the light saber duels look, but I really have to work hard to suspend my disbelief when watching them. I can't help but think, "I could take him!"


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Old 05-20-2006, 05:59 PM   #31
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The kotor games in my opinion are about the story and about the characters. The moves and graphics are secondary. In no way am I complaining about the graphics though. With the saber fighting it would be interesting to see a little more anikan/yoda style, faster, fancier and varying ranges of power. Single style is(and even though I like it the best) less effective than the double bladed, period. It wouldn't be accurate to make double and single equal. It is the same thing with the character classes. The game warns you that the consular is for advanced players. same thing.


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Old 05-21-2006, 03:39 PM   #32
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But the thing is, the consular is not for advanced players. He is just as easy as every class. And when making, classes/options... do they really have to determine the difficulty? Like you either pick the class:
Jedi -average powers
Jedi Knight - mighty powers
Jedi MAster - mind blowing powers

Jedi would be for the "advanced" players...

Single, duald and staff have to be equally strong. They should have different strengths and weaknesses tho.
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Old 05-21-2006, 05:59 PM   #33
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Adding 1 damage to every rank of Dueling would be a good idea in my opinion (you should hit harder using two hands with one saber). You would still do much more damage with duel sabers. Also, the Weapon Master line should have a Dueling equivalent to the two-handed Weapon fighting line.

In the end, Single saber would still have a less damage than duel sabers (although not as big of difference as it does now), but still retain the small defence/accuracy bonus'.
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