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Old 05-31-2006, 10:25 AM   #1
Dark Lord Maul
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who do you believe jedi/grey jedi?

The grey/shadow jedi state that the jedi and sith are the ones that fuel each others existance, and that neither of them can acheive true peace because they do not understand the Hole of the force.

the jedi shun the grey/shadow jedi's existence saying that the force is like a coin two sides one good the other evil. but then yoda said roughly (not exact quote) that the force is in every thing so it is more like a field of energy, so it does have light and dark sides but as it is a field of energy there must be grey spots where the light and dark meet.

i just wanted to get peoples views on this.


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Old 05-31-2006, 10:52 AM   #2
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I believe that both views are correct because it is true, for darkness(Sith) there has to be some form of light(Jedi) to create it and without darkness light would have a cause so it would collapse. But for the Light to create the darkness there has to be some medium(Grey Jedi) where the light and darkness meet. Suchas when an object creates shadows, the light and the darkness meet at the point where the oblect is.


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Old 05-31-2006, 11:48 AM   #3
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Post You had to get me started. XD

The Gray Jedi's view on the Force is always correct. The Jedi and Sith are both wrong, Jedi are against love and compassion... the Sith embrace it, in this sence the Sith are correct. The Sith rely on anger and passion for strength to make them like gods... the Jedi rely on serenity and the force as their allies. The Sith are selfish, the Jedi are selfless. Neither of them are correct but neither are wrong. With the exception of the Gray Jedi, they know exactly where its at.
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:49 AM   #4
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There isn't really a "light side" of the Force per se. There is the Force and the dark side. The dark side is a corruption of the natural state of the Force. So there is no "grey area", there are those who use the Force naturally and those who use the dark side. Using the dark side of the force is in and of itself evil, so even if someone is still using the Force in some natural ways, they are still committing an "evil act." You can't balance that out by using the natural Force some of the time. Vader, Palpatine, and just about every other Sith/Dark Jedi used aspects of the Force naturally, but because of their use of the dark side they are inherently "evil."

So it isn't really possible to be a "grey Jedi" really, because if you are using the dark side at all the you are harming the natural state of the Force, and hence are performing an "evil deed". At this point the Jedi is starting to fall under the dark side's influence and the temptation it brings.

The Force's natural state is when there is no beings using the dark side. The whole Chosen One prophecy was about destroying the Sith (embodiment of the dark side) and thus bring the Force back to its natural state. So the Force is either in is natural state or out of balance with the presence of the dark side. There is no place where "light and dark meet", since there isn't really light in the first place, and the Force is either in its natural state or it isn't.

The two-sided coin metaphore is not a good one. I guess the Force is more like a river, flowing naturally down a hillside. The dark side would be like someone diverting some of that water to their own ends or poluting it, causing adverse affects.

The Jedi do not view themselves in a moral sense as "good". They seek to preserve the natural state of the Force, which means routing out the corruptions of the dark side. They do not say that anger and hate are "bad" emotions because of moral reasons, but because they have seen many times first hand that using the Force with such emotions can lead to using the dark side and the corruption of the natural state of the Force, always at the detriment of the individual and others as well.

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Old 05-31-2006, 04:18 PM   #5
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that is a good point about the chosen one prophecy, but the sith also have a similar prophacy where the one they call the sith'ra will bring balance to the dark side

pls tell me your views on this.


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Old 05-31-2006, 04:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExileRevan
The Gray Jedi's view on the Force is always correct. The Jedi and Sith are both wrong, Jedi are against love and compassion. .. the Sith embrace it, in this sence the Sith are correct. The Sith rely on anger and passion for strength to make them like gods... the Jedi rely on serenity and the force as their allies. The Sith are selfish, the Jedi are selfless. Neither of them are correct but neither are wrong. With the exception of the Gray Jedi, they know exactly where its at.
From my interpretation of the Jedi Philosophy, I believe that the lightside is not against emotions, but are more intrested in the individual's ability to control their emotions. Light Jedi are not emotionless, but they fight to control their urges. I rather believe that all Jedi and Sith are gray in some nature.

Psychology Moment: When a person is doing some type of action, they are trying to communicate something.

I can see a Sith Lord walk on the light and darkside without being 100% evil. I can also see a Jedi Master walk on the dark and lightside without being 100% good. There are no absolutes.



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Old 05-31-2006, 04:48 PM   #7
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I think there is no actual light side. Just different stages of darkside. no one's innocent just different phases of guilt.


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Old 05-31-2006, 05:08 PM   #8
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I think the 'grey' jedi were invented for the purpose of this game only.
Considering the division of force powers, this makes sense in terms of game balance and play.
If you actually walked the 'grey/neutral' side in the game, you would miss out on a lot of XP.
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Old 06-01-2006, 06:58 AM   #9
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If you ask me, both Jedi and Sith tend to deal in extremes. Just look at the way the Jedi brand everything as dark sided whenever it goes against what they believe in. Besides, around the time of the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi had effectively turned into a bunch of control freaks. For starters, their practice of separating children from their families meant that those children would effectively be easier to condition. The Council could force feed them whatever views they liked, and there wouldn't be any visible alternative, so how were they supposed to think for themselves? Secondly, their obsession with repressing and denying emotions only leads to mental problems, namely the kind of instability that can build up and make someone snap. So in a way, they are responsible for several cases of fall to the dark side.
The Sith are pretty much about power, about doing whatever they want because they can. As chaotic as it gets, even when some of them manage to use their power to dominate each other. Still, they have several different methods. The problem with the Jedi is that they try to suppress natural change. They have their commandments set in stone and refuse to consider other ways of thinking. And that is one of their major flaws: they think they are the absolute holders of truth.
Gray Jedi, on the other hand, are more human. They don't live obsessed with extremes, and instead of using terms such as light and dark, they focus on good and evil, on each person's actions. They aren't so quick to judge or label others, and they know that things aren't always as black and white as the Jedi tend to think.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:56 PM   #10
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Strong emotions lead to the dark side of the force.
Jedi are trained to 'let go' of their personal feelings, not to repress and deny them.

It is not a crime to feel things, but to act solely based on feelings opens the door to darkside corruption.
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:23 PM   #11
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Not always. Not every emotion is a path to corruption. Besides, the Jedi Council fell into apathy and inaction. Not to mention arrogance. Between that and the desire to protect innocents... Revan acted because he wanted to protect others, and the Council was either too lazy, felt that the lives of innocents weren't worth protecting... or maybe they were simply afraid of change because that meant that someone might end up questioning their authority.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
If you ask me, both Jedi and Sith tend to deal in extremes. Just look at the way the Jedi brand everything as dark sided whenever it goes against what they believe in.
Because they have seen it happen over and over again first hand. They have the rules they do because they are trying to prevent repeat occurances because of what has heppened in the past. It is not because of "religious" reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
Besides, around the time of the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi had effectively turned into a bunch of control freaks. For starters, their practice of separating children from their families meant that those children would effectively be easier to condition.
And why did they do that? Because they found that older children and adults have connections and issues that lead them to be susceptable to falling to the dark side. They didn't do it because they thought that it would be lots of fun. They and we have seen first hand several times what can happen if you try and undo all these things after the fact. Then they have the problem of dealing with that dark sider and all the hurt and pain he/she inflicts on himself and others. Isn't it better to try and prevent that from happening in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Darth Manus
The Council could force feed them whatever views they liked, and there wouldn't be any visible alternative, so how were they supposed to think for themselves?
That's like saying, "if we don't teach the kids about other theories besides gravity (or insert scientific theory here), then how are they going to think for themselves?" The Jedi's view of the Force has been developed from trial and error over 20,000+ thousand years. They didn't just pull their ideas out of thin air. Jedi who attempted to use the dark side and stay uncorrupted have failed. Dooku had a lot of the same ideas as you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
Secondly, their obsession with repressing and denying emotions only leads to mental problems, namely the kind of instability that can build up and make someone snap. So in a way, they are responsible for several cases of fall to the dark side.
Do you have an example? I would say that the ones with mental problems are those who weren't brought up using the Jedi way.

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Originally Posted by Darth Manus
The problem with the Jedi is that they try to suppress natural change. They have their commandments set in stone and refuse to consider other ways of thinking. And that is one of their major flaws: they think they are the absolute holders of truth.
You are correct that at the end of Old Republic the Jedi had become to focused on the rules themselves and not the reasons for them. There may of potentially been other ways to address the issues that can lead to a Jedi being succeptable to the dark side, but that doesn't change the fact that certain things can lead to corruption by the dark side.

My point is, using fear, anger, and hate with the Force can lead to the dark side. The Jedi may have been dogmatic about how to avoid the fear, anger, and hate, but that doesn't change the fact that they lead to the dark side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
They don't live obsessed with extremes, and instead of using terms such as light and dark, they focus on good and evil, on each person's actions. They aren't so quick to judge or label others, and they know that things aren't always as black and white as the Jedi tend to think.
But again, we have seen time and again that those who think they can use the dark side and not be affected/corrupted have failed.

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Old 06-01-2006, 02:52 PM   #13
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The growing tendency in the Old Republic, as seen in the Mandalorian wars, was for Jedi to shut themselves away from everyone else. Also, it is true that handling emotions can be difficult, especially for Force users, but denying them a normal life only caused more trouble. Anakin fell because of his pride and arrogance, but he was also undermined by the burden of having to keeep a secret relationship because the Jedi wouldn't approve. He couldn't turn to them for help with his concerns, so he was easy prey for Sidious, who had already been filling his ears.

As for the teachings, what I mean is that they don't try to teach them to handle their emotions responsibly. Instead, they keep trying to suppress them. That's like putting a rock over a gas vent. Sooner or later, it's bound to burst.

The main problem, like I said before, was the Order's tendency to become more cloistered and self-centered. They lacked real life experience, and were therefore ill-equipped to deal with complicated issues involving emotions and attachments. They also became increasingly arrogant, as if only their views were true. What dealt more damage to the Jedi as a whole? Emotions or self-righteousness? By labeling all emotions as something dangerous that would lead to the dark side, they effectively alienated passionate students like Revan. Also, as seen by Atris' case, that one-sided, one track mentality also allows corruption to fester among them unchecked. Her actions resulted in the death of countless Jedi, which she used as bait for Nihilus. After that, she endangered the Exile by leaking his return to Republic space. And in her arrogance, she called herself the last true Jedi, and while she kept delving into Sith holocrons, she was arrogant enough to think she could handle it, and face Nihilus all by herself. She also never made any real effort to understand why Revan and the Exile joined the Mandalorian Wars. She never admitted for one moment that she might be wrong, and in her self-righteousness, she showed her true face for the first time when the Exile first found the Telos academy. She could barely conceal the hate as she stood there spouting the same self-righteous crap as always.

Jedi can be quite intolerant of anything that goes outside what the Council dictates. Different ways of thinking aren't necessarily a sign of corruption, and one can disagree with them without being touched by the dark side.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 06-01-2006, 03:19 PM   #14
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I said in another thread similar to this that being a grey Jedi is like being 'a little bit pregnant.' You're either light or dark. The Force isn't like a color wheel where you mix a little black and a little white and come up with mostly grey.
You either view yourself as the exclusive ultimate beneficiary of your powers or others/the galaxy as a beneficiary. You either want to wield power to get yourself ahead or to benefit everyone. If your focus is on self-promotion exclusively (dark), then you are going to do whatever you can to get ahead, and if that means destroying everyone around you, then that's what you're going to do. If your focus is on promoting everyone (light), then you are going to do things that benefit as many as possible.
However, your philosophy can't be exclusive self-promotion _and_ promotion of everyone--they're opposite philosophies and there's no middle ground. Good guys can do bad things and bad guys can do good things now and then, but their overriding driving force is still going to be one of those 2 philosophies, and they're going to conduct themselves along one of those 2 lines on a generally regular basis.

Jedi don't repress emotions, but they do have to learn to control them. I'll give you an analogy--I've seen a lot of emergencies, some life-threatening, through both work and my volunteer position. When I see a person who has just been stung by a bee and they're having a life-threatening allergic reaction, it is very scary. There's no other way for me to describe that feeling that you get when you realize that they may die right in front of you, but it can be nearly overwhelming.
However, my feelings do that person absolutely no good. I've had to learn to control that fear, to allow it to just flow by me, for lack of any better term, in order to be able to think clearly and do what's right for that person right then. If you were to ask me in the middle of a life-threatening situation if I was scared, I'd say h### yes, I'm scared. I'd be a fool to deny that feeling. I've just learned how to control it enough to be able to work effectively.
I imagine the Jedi would experience something similar on a far deeper scale. It's not a suppression or denial of those feelings, it's a control of those feelings so that they can do the proper thing and concentrate on the battle or issue at hand.

As for Jedi training, Prime said most of it already. The only thing I would add is that trying to unlearn the wrong thing and learn it the right way over again is really hard. When I was a lower ranked color belt at my taekwondo school, I got taught the wrong sequence in part of a kata/form. The master caught it quickly enough, but it took me several months to fully unlearn the incorrect sequence and have it replaced by the proper sequence. If I had learned it correctly the first time, it would have been much, much easier. It's better to teach a child something correctly the first time than to have to break bad habits and reteach them the correct habits. It's not something the masters would just do on a lark. Being the parent of a couple young kids, I can tell you it's a _lot_ of work to take care of them and teach them. It's not a responsibility you take on just to indoctrinate them in some arbitrary philosophy.


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Old 06-01-2006, 04:11 PM   #15
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After studying 'Adolescent Psychology' this year, I have to wonder about how weird the Jedi Philosophy is. Before we hit the age of 10, there is absolutely no 'abstract' thinking. I wonder if the Jedi are born with their brain nerves connected. Before we are adolescents, our brain nerves have not started to form. Abstract learning comes from these nerves developing, and our ability to think in different ways. Until that time, the kid has no comprehension over logic. Of course there are the early developers.



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Old 06-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
After studying 'Adolescent Psychology' this year, I have to wonder about how weird the Jedi Philosophy is. Before we hit the age of 10, there is absolutely no 'abstract' thinking. I wonder if the Jedi are born with their brain nerves connected. Before we are adolescents, our brain nerves have not started to form. Abstract learning comes from these nerves developing, and our ability to think in different ways. Until that time, the kid has no comprehension over logic. Of course there are the early developers.

Heh, my son is one of those who really surprises me some times with his leaps in logic. Sometimes he's scary-bright.

Maybe the abstract thinking isn't fully developed, but that doesn't mean they can't work on things like lightsaber skills and other basic subjects and hit the more abstract stuff later on. You can learn the tenets of the Jedi code and then learn the meaning of them at a later age.


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Old 06-02-2006, 02:27 AM   #17
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Grey Jedi, for some reason, looks quite similar to the NJO style thinking.

"There is no dark side, only dark intensions"

Now, aside from any NJO bashing and things like that the idea is basically right. THough walking the grey line means it is easy to sway either way.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
The growing tendency in the Old Republic, as seen in the Mandalorian wars, was for Jedi to shut themselves away from everyone else.
The Jedi Council did not want to get involved because they correctly realized that the Mandalorians themselves weren't the true threat, and rushing to war might not be the wisest course of action at that time. They didn't wait because they just wanted to hang out by themselves. We are told directly that the Jedi of that era are directly involved with local communities, which hardly makes them shut ins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
Also, it is true that handling emotions can be difficult, especially for Force users, but denying them a normal life only caused more trouble.
Being a Force User automatically denies them a "normal life". They cannot just ignore that fact. We already have seen the disasters that come from letting them do whatever they want without considering the consequences and attempting to have the appropriate safeguards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
Anakin fell because of his pride and arrogance, but he was also undermined by the burden of having to keeep a secret relationship because the Jedi wouldn't approve. He couldn't turn to them for help with his concerns, so he was easy prey for Sidious, who had already been filling his ears.
Anakin is the perfect example of why allowing such possessive attachments and emotions is dangerous, and why raising children from birth can prevent such disasters as Vader. Anakin most likely wouldn't have had those problems if he had learned to avoid and handle those problems in the first place. There have been hundreds of thousands of Jedi who had be raised from birth and have lived productive lives. The Jedi's mistake was not having the rules, but not adhering to those rules when it came to Anakin. If they had followed their own rules Vader most likely would not have come into existence.

This mistake was magnified because they were not equiped to help him with his problems after the fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
As for the teachings, what I mean is that they don't try to teach them to handle their emotions responsibly. Instead, they keep trying to suppress them.
Their teachings don't try to suppress anything. They try and equip them to deal with emotions so that they don't lead to the dark side. In any event, they must be dealt with in some manner because they can lead to the dark side if left unchecked. This has happened time and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
The main problem, like I said before, was the Order's tendency to become more cloistered and self-centered. They lacked real life experience
What do you mean by "real life experience?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
and were therefore ill-equipped to deal with complicated issues involving emotions and attachments.
The Jedi who were trained properly had no such problems for the most part. Those who weren't, like Anakin, did have problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
They also became increasingly arrogant, as if only their views were true.
True. There were problably other ways to handle the issue. But they did need to be handled, and they had been done so successfully for thousands of generations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
What dealt more damage to the Jedi as a whole? Emotions or self-righteousness?
Not following their own rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
By labeling all emotions as something dangerous that would lead to the dark side, they effectively alienated passionate students like Revan.
If he had been trained correctly he would have been able to deal with any passion. But he was trained differently by Kriea and corrupted by Malakor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Manus
Jedi can be quite intolerant of anything that goes outside what the Council dictates. Different ways of thinking aren't necessarily a sign of corruption, and one can disagree with them without being touched by the dark side.
Yes. While the Council at the end of the OR was indeed set in its ways, perhaps too much, it isn't like they didn't tolerate any dissent. Qui-Gon did so all the time and was still very well respected and certainly not cast out of the Order. Anakin of course was as well, and wasn't cast out either. Or even punished a part from a scolding for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Grey Jedi, for some reason, looks quite similar to the NJO style thinking.

"There is no dark side, only dark intensions"

Now, aside from any NJO bashing and things like that the idea is basically right. THough walking the grey line means it is easy to sway either way.
But in the post-NJO books we see that flaws of that reasoning and the undersirable results that it causes. Also keep in mind that philosophy in the NJO originated from Vergere, who as it turns out
spoiler:
was apparently a Sith

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Old 06-02-2006, 01:04 PM   #19
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Heh, my son is one of those who really surprises me some times with his leaps in logic. Sometimes he's scary-bright.

Maybe the abstract thinking isn't fully developed, but that doesn't mean they can't work on things like lightsaber skills and other basic subjects and hit the more abstract stuff later on. You can learn the tenets of the Jedi code and then learn the meaning of them at a later age.
If you ever have a moment that you keep telling someone not to do something but they still do, this means they are not fully developed cognitively or biologically. (Its normal). A person cannot learn something when they are not biologically ready to, and they cannot cognitively learn something until they are ready to. Biology is a weird thing. I wonder if Yoda would have been wise enough to understand that a powerful Jedi could emerge from someone who is tought latter in life. Remeber, he mentioned that Luke and Anikan were to old to begin their training. In biological and cognitive fact, they are much more ready to learn anything after the age of fifteen.

There are some children who you can tell not to do something, until you are blue in the face, and they just don't get what is going on. This is normal. They are just not ready. Early developers in girls occures by the age of 7, and in boys it occures around the age of 11. (Statistics for 2006.) Keep in mind, it takes four years for Adolescents. (I will reframe from getting into detail.) Hehehe... Allways challange your kids...

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When it comes to our subject, I think Anikan was justified in some of his actions. If someone killed off my family member, I would hold nothing back. When it comes to his relationship with Pademe, I think the council would not have expelled him from the order. Obi-Wan seemed to want to help him in the matter. I believe that Anikan's downfall is from a harsh interpretation of the Jedi Code, and his inability to see through manipulation.



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Old 06-02-2006, 01:58 PM   #20
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
If you ever have a moment that you keep telling someone not to do something but they still do, this means they are not fully developed cognitively or biologically. (Its normal).
If one of my kids has a moment where I tell them not to do something and they still keep doing it, they'll be experiencing a swift application of discipline. Obedience is not an option in our family, it's a requirement. That's for their safety more than anything else. If I tell them to stop doing something because I see a danger and they don't, obeying me immediately will keep them out of that danger. Yes, we're pretty strict parents, but I don't want to raise spoiled whiny little brats.

My point is that you can lay some of the ground work with the basics for the youngest children and then go into the deeper philosophical issues later in life when they do have the capacity to understand it. Learning physical skills like handling a lightsaber at a young age would make them far more proficient than if they started later in life, even with the same number of years of actual saber training itself. Tiger Woods is a great golfer not only because he has phenomenal talent but also because he started in the sport at age 3.


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