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Old 01-23-2007, 02:29 PM   #1
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Challenging Battles?

Ok, I know KotOR is a CRPG, and that the focus of the game is on the conversations, not on the action. But I say , and probalbly everyone will agree with me, that it should have more difficulty battles on a supposed Kotor III. Why, every "boss" in Kotor II was real easy to defeat, in any class (except for Vrook and Kreia's lighsabers). Kotor I had some difficult battles, more than the second anyway, the player needed to think to battle Malak and his Jedi "hostages".

What Im saying, is that the Battles should be more difficulty, but the game would still be a CRPG, just with battles a la Final Fantasy. What you think?
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:40 PM   #2
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Lol do you use cheat codes or something because I'm stuck at Darth Nilus. He's hard, and I can't beat him even though I use visas to kill herself with her awesome red lightsaber and darth nilus still ends up killing me at the end. then I need to restart the saved game and start over in his ghost ship. Kotor 3 bosses: less hard!


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Old 01-23-2007, 03:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabner
Lol do you use cheat codes or something because I'm stuck at Darth Nilus. He's hard, and I can't beat him even though I use visas to kill herself with her awesome red lightsaber and darth nilus still ends up killing me at the end. then I need to restart the saved game and start over in his ghost ship. Kotor 3 bosses: less hard!

That cant be. Nihilus is one of the easiest Kotor II bosses. Well, if u're having difficulties, just use all ur benign Force Powers into yourself, and the malign ones on him. Dont forget to use your Stims too.

Still, I dont agree with you. If you're having a hard time with Nihilus, just see if you can beat any optional boss of Final Fantasy. That's hard!

Anyway, I know that people may want this to remain unchanged. So I propose that there should be some optional enemies. They would be really difficulty, at least, more than the ones you face on the main plot.
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Old 01-23-2007, 05:27 PM   #4
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depends on how you fight... you can walk most battles if you have at least 2 Jedi, with a Speed boost and Flurry. if, however, you rely on ranged characters, you would not get far methinks. i suppose they have to strike a balance between using Jedi to just walk through everything, and struggling (if that's the way the game turns out) with under powered, under equipped characters.
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabner
Lol do you use cheat codes or something because I'm stuck at Darth Nilus. He's hard, and I can't beat him even though I use visas to kill herself with her awesome red lightsaber and darth nilus still ends up killing me at the end. then I need to restart the saved game and start over in his ghost ship. Kotor 3 bosses: less hard!
Hehe, good ol' Jerrod.
Anyways, I agree with you. They should make the bosses harder, a lot harder. To the point where it takes you the tenth try just to beat them, that's what a fun game is to me.

Darth Nihilus was too easy, and having Visas as a sacrifice, weakening Nihilus, is not fun. Darth Sion was a little harder, but I still killed him on my first try. Kreia on the other hand took me about three tries, but she wasn't all that hard (unlike Malak - who seemed impossible until I figured out about the Jedi bodies online).


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Old 01-23-2007, 07:36 PM   #6
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In my opinion all the KotOR bosses were far too easy... I walked them all, the only time I ever struggled with anyone was as a DS Exile vs Vrook and thats long before I started using Mods or KSE. Most of the time I dont even bother changing force or lightsaber forms and still win against whichever and how many foes.

So I think the bosses should be harder... Even Malak was easy for me (and I hadnt even twigged you could kill all those suspended Jedi...) Kicked his ass, I didnt even need to use Heal or a medi pack when I fought him. So definatly harder bosses next time! But not too hard I want an epic stuggle that I can beat within 1 or 2 go's, I wouldnt want someone whos really hard to beat!



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Old 01-23-2007, 07:38 PM   #7
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What about the optional bosses?
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:08 PM   #8
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What about the optional bosses?
Not for me. All bosses should be focused on the main story. All effort be based on the main story.

For me, the hardest boss battle was with Master Vrook. But people complain on how overpowered Vrook was, and they are so disappointed with him. The only way I was able to kill off Vrook was using the Mine strat by HK-47...mine the area and watch Vrook get himself killed off. For some people, this is FUN. Not for me...strong bosses that call me to restart over and over again causes me to have some "un-fun". That's just me, though.

How about a little bit harder bosses, but not too much. "KOTOR" diffucilty rather than KOTOR2 difficulty? And no Vrook-like difficulity! (Or, you know, just substitue Darth Nihlius's stats for Vrook's stats. Man, the game would be so much better!)
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
How about a little bit harder bosses, but not too much. "KOTOR" diffucilty rather than KOTOR2 difficulty? And no Vrook-like difficulity! (Or, you know, just substitue Darth Nihlius's stats for Vrook's stats. Man, the game would be so much better!)
Also though, Darth Nihilus was only that easy because you had the help from Mandalore and Visas (without mods). If you switched the stats of combat between the two of Vrook and Nihilus, I don't think it would make Vrook much easier since you have to fight solo against him.


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Old 01-23-2007, 08:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Not for me. All bosses should be focused on the main story. All effort be based on the main story.
It wouldnt take that much time you're thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
For me, the hardest boss battle was with Master Vrook. But people complain on how overpowered Vrook was, and they are so disappointed with him. The only way I was able to kill off Vrook was using the Mine strat by HK-47...mine the area and watch Vrook get himself killed off. For some people, this is FUN. Not for me...strong bosses that call me to restart over and over again causes me to have some "un-fun". That's just me, though.
That's why I suggested real-hard optional bosses: You wouldnt need to face them if u didnt wished to, but if you want real nice items and equipments, you would have to face them anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
How about a little bit harder bosses, but not too much. "KOTOR" diffucilty rather than KOTOR2 difficulty? And no Vrook-like difficulity!
I say more Vrook Like difficulty, and standard bosses a little more difficulty than in Kotor I
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
(Or, you know, just substitue Darth Nihlius's stats for Vrook's stats. Man, the game would be so much better!)
Agreed.

Last edited by RedHawke; 01-26-2007 at 01:15 AM. Reason: Chatspeak = Bad...
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:45 PM   #11
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I don't think the battles should be any harder. I think there should be multiple ways around them though. A talker can talk his way through or an expert at defense can wear them down before they start attacking etc. There needs to be more deciding factors instead of hack, slash, repeat.


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Old 01-23-2007, 09:13 PM   #12
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Also though, Darth Nihilus was only that easy because you had the help from Mandalore and Visas (without mods). If you switched the stats of combat between the two of Vrook and Nihilus, I don't think it would make Vrook much easier since you have to fight solo against him.
True. But the prazyalation trick of your two party members would seem a bit too cliched and forced, as well as make it harder for one to kill off Visas by convicing her to murder herself.

It would make the game harder to have you face Nihlius alone...but having your two party members be prayalzed would seem forced. But yes, if you were fighting alone, Nihlius would have been a little harder.

Quote:
I don't think the battles should be any harder. I think there should be multiple ways around them though. A talker can talk his way through or an expert at defense can wear them down before they start attacking etc. There needs to be more deciding factors instead of hack, slash, repeat.
More Sion-like "will-breaking" minigames, FTW!
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:41 PM   #13
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From my point of view, I couldn’t care less if your average mercenary, Dark Jedi, beast or whatever you fight in KotOR III is easy to beat, but when you fight the big bosses, they need to be very hard to beat.

For example (this is how I hope KotOR III works), in TSL, Traya, Sion, Nihilus, Kavar, Vrook and Zez-Kai Ell would be the hardest characters in the game to beat. In KotOR, Malak, Bastila, Darth Bandon, Uthar, Yuthura, Jolee and Juhani would be the hardest characters in the game to beat. This is how KotOR III should work, unlike how it was in KotOR and TSL.

Part of the problem is how you could just spam overpowered force powers during a battle. I’d like to see a major cool down with force power usage in KotOR III, especially when battling the big gun type of characters in KotOR III.

In terms of gameplay, I’d like to see the focus of combat more on the lightsaber, not so much on force powers. Am I asking too much for the gameplay in KotOR III to be more closer to the movies?

I’d like to have more traditional lightsaber duels with major enemies in KotOR III, where you and your enemy can’t just spam force powers against each other right in the middle of a lightsaber duel when you’re both not far from one another!


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Old 01-23-2007, 10:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It would make the game harder to have you face Nihlius alone...but having your two party members be prayalzed would seem forced. But yes, if you were fighting alone, Nihlius would have been a little harder.
You could also have all the "zombies" on the bridge jump up from the lower level and attack you when the fight starts, that way Nihilus would not be outnumbered 3 on 1.

As for Nihilus vs. Vrook it seems Vrook is stronger physically while Nihilus is stronger in the force and has more health. To a large extent I think the difference in percieved difficulty comes from facing Nihilus much later in the game, where you've managed to collect more powerful gear.

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Part of the problem is how you could just spam overpowered force powers during a battle. I’d like to see a major cool down with force power usage in KotOR III, especially when battling the big gun type of characters in KotOR III.
This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe
This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.
This is an excellent idea stoffe. It would force the player to better roleplay their character.


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Old 01-23-2007, 10:58 PM   #16
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This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.
I concur. It would severly nerf my character, but, yes I concur with it. If someone can create it to become an Uber-Hardcore Mod to be downloaded later on, to make the boss battles harder, I would love it.

Just you know, as an optional mod so that after I beat the game once, I can then download the mod. It might make my jack-of-all-trades Jedi a bit too weak, and I could lose. (I play a game not for the challenges but for the story, though "gamists" who love tinkinering with stats would like it!)

Quote:
You could also have all the "zombies" on the bridge jump up from the lower level and attack you when the fight starts, that way Nihilus would not be outnumbered 3 on 1.
A very great idea. I should suggest this on the Mod Suggestion board.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:35 PM   #17
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The crewmen of the Ravanger is a pretty cool idea, that away your character wouldn't be 'forced' to be stunned, like SilentScope said, and they would be too occupied to help you with Nihilus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crt_Alt_Del
That's why I suggested real-hard optional bosses: You wouldnt need to face them if u didnt wished to, but if you want real nice items and equipments, u would have to face them anyway.
That's a good idea as well, maybe for first time players who just want to see how the game ends. Then second + accounts could be for these bosses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbieZ
I don't think the battles should be any harder. I think there should be multiple ways around them though. A talker can talk his way through or an expert at defense can wear them down before they start attacking etc. There needs to be more deciding factors instead of hack, slash, repeat.
Yes that would be nice as well, but it would be even better if the bosses of the game were harder as well. Just giving different solutions to the match might not be enough for some people (like me).


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Old 01-24-2007, 08:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe
You could also have all the "zombies" on the bridge jump up from the lower level and attack you when the fight starts, that way Nihilus would not be outnumbered 3 on 1.

But that is a excellent idea, Stoffe. I've always wondered why the heck those zombies didnt attacked you. You should request such a mod.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KotO[REvan
]That's a good idea as well, maybe for first time players who just want to see how the game ends. Then second + accounts could be for these bosses.
You know what? That is what is missing on Kotor.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:33 AM   #19
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Well, I think the difficulty on most enemies/boss(Nihilus not withstanding) is ok, well I actually like it that way for my first play, since I can focus more on the story than the fighting. Now, I do hope for a "REALLY DIFFICULT" setting where enemies are tougher. But that should be an "option" and not something everyone have to do to enjoy the whole story in its entirety.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by stoffe
This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.
aye, great idea, though as said, it would arse up my character creation :P

would it not be possible to alter the fighting styles of the bosses depending on your class? for example, if you decided to play through as a Guardian, you would get all these intense lightsabre duels Architect wanted, as a Consular you could 'spam force powers', because to be frank, a Consular would be killed very quickly in a straight lightsabre duel, if we go along with making the bosses harder, and as such, the battles would be balanced depending on which class you play as. not a huge difference, but enough.

Another thing, i don't think limiting the force power tiers would be necessary, as for me, one of the best things about reaching the latter stages of these games is the intense feeling of power you get from being able to Force Storm a group of Sith while hacking into a Dark Jedi with Master Flurry. diluting that would dilute that feeling. instead, i think the effect of attributes on gameplay should be made more pronounced. the attributes already have a clear enough impact on how you play, so we just pronounce that a bit, and hey presto, instant balancing (sort of).
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe

This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.

That would force me to cheat. In my book Jedi that are strong in the foce are strong in melee combat as well. I couldn't stand playing a PC that soley concentrates on saber or force.
While in most other RPG's I can live with the Warrior-Mage-Thief classes, I don't think it works too well in Kotor...

And quite frankly, I don't think that would make the game harder. Not at all. Let's take a look on the Kotor games. Kotor combat is designed to require tactic. You could use the pause, and manage the whole party, using shields, mines, hit and run, disabling forcepowers and such.
Fact is, standard attacks with the PC while your party does whatever suits them is enough to win most battles in both games. Kotor II was actually even easier, because they made the AI worse (ever seen a forcesensitive use some of the potentially lethal DISABLING powers? or any other power than drain?)

What the general enemy in Kotor III needs is not more hitpoints. They need an vastly improved AI that makes use of the feats and powers in an intelligent way. Additionally, enemies should have more attack power. They should force the player to use that devensive items, or to stun/disable the enemy to prevent him from doing too much damage.


Boss battles should (on the highest difficulty) really be a hard challenge. I would like to see bosses that need 5-10 tries before I manage to defeat them.
The battles could be devided into certain "phases", in one for example the boss could use some kind of unique ability that causes a lot of trouble for you...

Or bosses become stronger when their hitpoints drop under 15%. Like they get x4 criticals instead of x2 critical then. Which can result in instant kills...

The developers should just take a look on other games, there are countless possibilities to improve the game difficulty. But IMO the best would be to improve the AI.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
And quite frankly, I don't think that would make the game harder. Not at all. Let's take a look on the Kotor games. Kotor combat is designed to require tactic. You could use the pause, and manage the whole party, using shields, mines, hit and run, disabling forcepowers and such.
Fact is, standard attacks with the PC while your party does whatever suits them is enough to win most battles in both games. Kotor II was actually even easier, because they made the AI worse (ever seen a forcesensitive use some of the potentially lethal DISABLING powers? or any other power than drain?)
Exactly. They (the bosses and all enemies, actually) must force the player to think more before acting. Its turn based, and should stay this. But a little more hours of work developing good AI for the enemies is a must.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
What the general enemy in Kotor III needs is not more hitpoints. They need an vastly improved AI that makes use of the feats and powers in an intelligent way. Additionally, enemies should have more attack power. They should force the player to use that devensive items, or to stun/disable the enemy to prevent him from doing too much damage.


Boss battles should (on the highest difficulty) really be a hard challenge. I would like to see bosses that need 5-10 tries before I manage to defeat them.
The battles could be devided into certain "phases", in one for example the boss could use some kind of unique ability that causes a lot of trouble for you...
So you do agree with me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Or bosses become stronger when their hitpoints drop under 15%. Like they get x4 criticals instead of x2 critical then. Which can result in instant kills...

The developers should just take a look on other games, there are countless possibilities to improve the game difficulty. But IMO the best would be to improve the AI.
I get your meaning.

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Old 01-25-2007, 01:46 PM   #23
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I would definitely like the boss battles to be harder. The worst thing about the KotOR games is that the bosses are practically no harder to beat than anyone else. There really needs to be more focus on that in K3, because it's really strange when I have more trouble defeating Kelborn in the battle circle than I do defeating Darth Sion.

Also, like The Architect said, there should be some kind of "Force power cool-down" to prevent the spamming of Force powers. In lightsaber duels, there should be much more focus on the lightsabers, that is why they're called "lightsaber duels" right? Of course, Consulars can use their "buffin'-up" powers, but they really shouldn't be using attacking powers all that often.


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Old 01-25-2007, 02:27 PM   #24
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The collective sentiment of this thread seems to be that Jedi should be very powerful, and that people enjoy playing very powerful characters that wipe the floor with the opposition.

At the same time people want battles to be harder and opponents more challenging.

This seems to be the core problem with any game letting the player play as a Jedi, since it seems very hard to combine those two desires since they are tied to each other. Jedi are overpowered and should be able to beat most other opponents in a straight fight. Thus combat becomes not all that challenging for the most part. You can't have a powerful, floor-wiping character who's in mortal danger in every fight; then they wouldn't really be powerful, would they? But allow them to use their power, and few enemies stand a chance.

Some games try to work around this situation by giving common grunts unrealistic amounts of health, or throwing huge numbers of them at the player, but that only serves to make battles last longer, not make them more interesting. Others try to work around it by adding unrealistic numbers of Sith/(Dark) Jedi who have access to the same toys as the player, but that just turns something that should be rare and special into a common grunt that loses its appeal after a while, and forces "boss" type characters into ever higher levels of munchkinism to stand out over the masses or saber-wielding force users opposing the player.

How could the game designers allow the player to play a character providing "the intense feeling of power you get from being able to Force Storm a group of Sith while hacking into a Dark Jedi with Master Flurry", while at the same time making combat a challenge instead of effortless grunt work you do between story advancements and quests? You can't easily give a character capable of holding their own against a powerful Sith Lord or Dark Jedi a challenge while fighting "lesser" opponents, who the majority of the fights in a game by necessity has to be against, unless the game contains very few fights.


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Old 01-25-2007, 03:53 PM   #25
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Well you have a point.

At higher levels, you should indeed be an unstopable force. Jedi mow through common enemies, that's true, but there is no need for a lvl 10 character to be able to do that.

Also, no matter how strong you are, dark jedi opponents could still pose a threat. Every lightsaber duel should be taken serious, even if you're the grand master at it...

But still, you're right. You can't be all powerful and have a challenge at the same time. I guess it would be enough to make the "normal" fights more interesting and just a little harder. And that can only be achieved through a better AI.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:16 PM   #26
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True, Jedi can rip through common enemies, but they shouldn't be able to rip through Sith Lords. That's just the problem - in the KotOR games, they do. I don't mind a little Sith Assassin floor-wiping action, but Sith Lords should be much harder than they are.

Something that I'd like to see in K3 is the ability for the characters, meaning you and whoever your fighting, to automatically move around while they're fighting. It would still have the same point-and-click style combat, but the characters wouldn't be standing in one place and taking turns striking. Also, this would allow for actual lightsaber-on-lightsaber contact, where it actually looks like the person is blocking the attack.


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Old 01-25-2007, 06:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
True, Jedi can rip through common enemies, but they shouldn't be able to rip through Sith Lords. That's just the problem - in the KotOR games, they do. I don't mind a little Sith Assassin floor-wiping action, but Sith Lords should be much harder than they are.
The problem with this would be that the Sith Lords would/should play by the same rules as your character does. However, since your character invariably will have more powerful equipment than they do, and the player (usually) will be smarter than the rather rudimentary NPC AI, this doesn't work too well. The AI doesn't know teamwork and has little situational awareness. This can in part be blamed on having a generic combat AI that is used everywhere for all types of characters, rather than a situation-specific AI for the enemies specifically written to handle each encounter.

In TSL, I believe a significant part of the combat difficulty (or lack thereof) problem stems from the fact that the game throws insanely powerful items at the player party at every turn, making what equipment you wear more important to the power of your characters than their own abilities, feats and skill choices. When you pit your well equipped party against enemies who in most instances only carry a (non-upgraded) weapon/lightsaber (and in some cases a simple robe or unremarkable armor) and nothing else, the odds are tilted heavily in the player's favor.

This makes game balancing very hard. How do you design en encounter that will be challenging to someone equipped with the best gear available, but still isn't completely impossible for someone who had worse luck with the random loot generator? I think they'd rather err on the too easy side than make things too hard and risk having a lot of annoyed customers unable to finish the game since they get killed all the time due to not playing the most min-maxed, equipment planned character imaginable.


Some of the lack of challenge can also be attributed to halfhearted scenario design. Even a pack of Sith Commandos could be a significantly bigger threat than they are if they were actively using armband shields, knew a few levels of Precise Shot, were armed with disruptors, flanked by a load of gun turrets and sniping at the player from behind a barrier of mines. You won't encounter many, if any, such planned defensive lines or carefully laid ambushes in the game.


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Old 01-25-2007, 07:43 PM   #28
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How could the game designers allow the player to play a character providing "the intense feeling of power you get from being able to Force Storm a group of Sith while hacking into a Dark Jedi with Master Flurry", while at the same time making combat a challenge instead of effortless grunt work you do between story advancements and quests?
As you say before, force the Player to choose wherter he want to use Force Storm or use Master Flurry. It would work, it would work very well, but I would hate it. I prefer an easy game rather a game that will take a long time to play. If it would be a mod, I would download it as soon as I finish K3 the first time.

Though, for the most part, I hope developers don't give overpowered junk next time, or make enemies a bit tougher.
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:30 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by stoffe
In TSL, I believe a significant part of the combat difficulty (or lack thereof) problem stems from the fact that the game throws insanely powerful items at the player party at every turn, making what equipment you wear more important to the power of your characters than their own abilities, feats and skill choices. When you pit your well equipped party against enemies who in most instances only carry a (non-upgraded) weapon/lightsaber (and in some cases a simple robe or unremarkable armor) and nothing else, the odds are tilted heavily in the player's favor.
This is my core 'beef' with the D20 rules system, it is an 'items make the character' system, in short it is D&D. While D20 is fair for a fantasy setting for something like Star Wars you need a different system to handle things.

Some advocate the GURPS system and some the D6 system, either way for a game like Star Wars you need to emphasisie the character and not the items.

And before you ask... yes I do like D&D but the 'item hunt' grind can and does get to me.


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Old 01-26-2007, 05:25 PM   #30
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One way that you could "force" the choice of the force or weapon, is to make some battles dependent on using one over the other...

Examples:

If surrounded my storm troopers, it would probably be best to force wave/immobilze some before you start to hack into them.

But when fighting a Sith/Jedi, they would be ready for the force and you would have to rely on your skill with the saber (think of the way Mace is able to block, repel, and then turn Sidious's Force Lightning in Ep. 3)...
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:56 PM   #31
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I'm fairly happy with the fights as they are. Something must have justben wrong with the programing of Nihlus... he was a wuss.
A new difficulty setting unlockable upon completion could be implemented for people up for a challenge. Or as unlockable features seem a thing of the past, downloadable content hehe. Doubles HP for enemies or whatever.
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:23 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe
This seems to be the core problem with any game letting the player play as a Jedi, since it seems very hard to combine those two desires since they are tied to each other. Jedi are overpowered and should be able to beat most other opponents in a straight fight. Thus combat becomes not all that challenging for the most part. You can't have a powerful, floor-wiping character who's in mortal danger in every fight; then they wouldn't really be powerful, would they? But allow them to use their power, and few enemies stand a chance.

Some games try to work around this situation by giving common grunts unrealistic amounts of health, or throwing huge numbers of them at the player, but that only serves to make battles last longer, not make them more interesting. Others try to work around it by adding unrealistic numbers of Sith/(Dark) Jedi who have access to the same toys as the player, but that just turns something that should be rare and special into a common grunt that loses its appeal after a while, and forces "boss" type characters into ever higher levels of munchkinism to stand out over the masses or saber-wielding force users opposing the player.
I understand. Of course, Im proposing the battles to be more difficulty, but the game shouldn't cease to be Kotor. Many ways to win a battle, not just defeating a enemy by facing him. Getting past a boss with stealth/conversation/persuasion/cunning is the way of Kotor, and it should remain this way.
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Old 01-27-2007, 10:23 AM   #33
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This is my core 'beef' with the D20 rules system, it is an 'items make the character' system, in short it is D&D.
The easy solution is to either give the enemy some uber-items and make them a lot harder, or make it a lot harder for the party to find uber-items.

Create more situation where you _have_ to use skills and feats to get through it or to make it a lot easier--e.g. right now I can fight my way through some of the battles in Neverwinter Nights 2 with standard equipment, but my Divine Icy Alchemical Silver Longsword +5 that I spent feats and skill points to build works even better. The fiery acid arrows look very cool flying, too, but I digress....

Now I can't build that sword with that power until at least level 15, which makes it a little more fair in that something that powerful can't be used at lower levels (though the game certainly scatter enough other powerful weapons around anyway). Add in more activities like the one on Taris where you have to go get T3 to get into the Sith base, or have to go on some quest to learn a force power or feat instead of getting yet another ultimate diatium part. I know that fighting and action is the thing that attracts a lot of people, and players don't like their PCs to die every other turn, but there should be a greater emphasis and advantage for using those skill points and feats, and I don't think it would be that much more difficult to build into the game.


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Old 01-27-2007, 11:13 AM   #34
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Many ways to win a battle, not just defeating a enemy by facing him. Getting past a boss with stealth/conversation/persuasion/cunning is the way of Kotor, and it should remain this way.
Hmm, strange, I can't remind myself of very many situations of that kind in KotOR at all. Could you really talk your way out of, or bypass by stealth, any "boss" type battle in KotOR? I can't remember any such occasions.

Usually it's you walking along, bumping into the boss and get tossed into dialog/cutscene mode which conveniently forces you out of stealth mode. Then there is some story-related talk, the customary exchange of taunts and then you fight no matter what. Then you either kill them, or beat them down and get put in dialog mode again for some dying words or a choice of letting them crawl away.

The emphasis of encounters in KotOR seems to lie firmly on battle. You can't talk your way out of any significant fight, you usually can't sneak past them and even if you could you'd gain nothing by doing it since using stealth would mean you forfeit any XP and loot from the encounter, and you rarely get other benefits or long-term story implications to compensate. Choices other than deadly force, to the extent they even exist, are very poorly rewarded in the KotOR games.


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Old 01-27-2007, 11:39 AM   #35
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Hmm, strange, I can't remind myself of very many situations of that kind in KotOR at all. Could you really talk your way out of, or bypass by stealth, any "boss" type battle in KotOR? I can't remember any such occasions.
Darth Sion versus Exile battle. Break Sion's will and the Boss Battle becomes easier.

There is also the possiblity of counting the Genoharden subquest as also an experience in using stealth to elimante your bounties. You can just kill them in one-and-one combat, but you could also overload their Force Cages, reprogram combots...Killing them in one-and-one combat gives more XP, but killing them via stealth is more fun.
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Old 01-28-2007, 02:47 AM   #36
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The easy solution is to either give the enemy some uber-items and make them a lot harder, or make it a lot harder for the party to find uber-items.
Thank you for making my whole point Jae (Though likely not your intention) the real solution is not to have the "uber" items in the first place.

I would answer the rest of your post but that would go waaaaaaay off topic.


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Old 01-28-2007, 03:42 AM   #37
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stoffe wrote:
Quote:
In TSL, I believe a significant part of the combat difficulty (or lack thereof) problem stems from the fact that the game throws insanely powerful items at the player party at every turn, making what equipment you wear more important to the power of your characters than their own abilities, feats and skill choices.
Pretty much. I only once had the random loot generator turn against me. Was when Mira had to free your Jedi character. Ran into an Ubese guard that was firing something inflicting Unstoppable damage at her instead of using melee weapons and she got zapped. After reloading the game, I had her rain grenades on the Ubese before he could open fire again and searched the corpse.

He had a Mandalorian Ripper. So it seems possible to give random goons, leaders and bosses more effective weapons. If you could make the weapons and armor not droppable, that would keep the characters from looting them off the corpses. (Let's face it, the armor of a soldier one of my Exiles and/or Revans defeats is probably not going to be very usable considering the amount of blaster and grenade damage it would take in a futile effort to protect its owner.)

I don't know if it's possible to give a creature weapons and armor with upgrades. IIRC, one of Redhawke's mods bypasses that by creating separate items with the stats of fully upgraded weapons and armor and assigning that to the various creatures. The Ord Mandell mod, IIRC.

Though I tend to run away and snipe when faced with difficult battles, or have them chase me through a minefield.


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Old 01-30-2007, 09:08 AM   #38
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Hmm, strange, I can't remind myself of very many situations of that kind in KotOR at all. Could you really talk your way out of, or bypass by stealth, any "boss" type battle in KotOR? I can't remember any such occasions.
Though someone else showed you an example of such a fight (like the cunning you show when crippling both Uthar Wynn and Yuthura Ban, on the Tomb of Naga Sadow), I must agree with you that not many fights have this possibility.

Quote:
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The emphasis of encounters in KotOR seems to lie firmly on battle. You can't talk your way out of any significant fight, you usually can't sneak past them and even if you could you'd gain nothing by doing it since using stealth would mean you forfeit any XP and loot from the encounter, and you rarely get other benefits or long-term story implications to compensate. Choices other than deadly force, to the extent they even exist, are very poorly rewarded in the KotOR games.
I fear you're right. I never use stealth. And when I use it, its mainly to go to a terminal and deactivate a shield protecting strong enemies, then I return and crush them.
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Old 01-30-2007, 11:16 AM   #39
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Quote:
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The emphasis of encounters in KotOR seems to lie firmly on battle. You can't talk your way out of any significant fight, you usually can't sneak past them and even if you could you'd gain nothing by doing it since using stealth would mean you forfeit any XP and loot from the encounter, and you rarely get other benefits or long-term story implications to compensate. Choices other than deadly force, to the extent they even exist, are very poorly rewarded in the KotOR games.
Yes, but it's scarcely surprising. Most CRPGs are very old school, where role-playing is about breaking things and hurting people. The Fallout games are a notable exception in that you could actually choose a mostly non-violent or even pacifist approach throughout the entire game, though you'd have to run for it during the random encounters. How many ever played though those games like that is doubtful, though... I guess the lesson here is that computer games, no mattter how well written, has no substitute for a real, live gamemaster, which isn't surprising either.


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