DarkSide... The quick and easy path... Yeah right... :(

AJL · 02-07-2007, 10:17 AM

I think in both Kotors the Dark path is very wrong. It is made very hard and
uncomfortable and the return very easy. (The dark path usually requires very
obvious evil acts and I can't help but to feel pity and regret when I do those
things... And there is nothing really driving you down that path and keeping
you from returning to light...)

Something should be done about that in the next game...

Starting the path to the Darkside should be very easy (It should be possible
to start the journey without even realizing it..) Even when you are trying to
Help someone there may be someone else who get hurt in the process or
things may just go wrong...

And of course it is possible that there are bad things happening around you
and you don't even have anything to do with them... You are just in wrong
place at the wrong time and peoples blame you...

And once you have started to go down that path it should start to drag you
ever deeper and make the return ever more difficult...

The peoples you deal with should start to become ever more rude and angry
towards you and make it easier for you hate them back and not feel so bad
about hurting them... And it should start to become more and more difficult
to get out of it...

It should start to feel that no matter how you try make peace and get out
of the situation things just get worse... And you should start to feel like you
are the victim and everyone else is against you...

Vaelastraz · 02-07-2007, 10:32 AM

And where's fun then? I don't want a real-life simulation. Besides, I doubt and developer could really make it emotionally difficult for you to "return" to the right path. That just doesn't work because noone gets that emotionally involved with a game.

SilentScope001 · 02-07-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

I think in both Kotors the Dark path is very wrong. It is made very hard and
uncomfortable and the return very easy. (The dark path usually requires very
obvious evil acts and I can't help but to feel pity and regret when I do those
things... And there is nothing really driving you down that path and keeping
you from returning to light...)

Well, I try to maxamize my DS Points to gain bonuses, so that drive me to do evil acts. Also, I get credits, infulence with The Exchange (so I can meet with them on Nar Shadda), more FPs (by stealing it from the Jedi Masters), and sweet revenge (murdering the Jedi Masters) and that's nice too.

In the end, it really comes down to RP to help you out in the DS. My Exile fell to the DS after everyone cursed him for the fall of Peragus and for fighting in the Mandaloiran Wars. "I tried to save the Republic, and this is the thanks I get! Well then, let me destroy the Republic, and find someone who DO appericate me!"

Henz · 02-07-2007, 02:55 PM

I agree more subtle DS options should be worked on. You're not evil, you're just a total (expletive) to be fair; stealing and killing where-ever you can. The option to be truely diobolical rarely comes up.

I don't see many faults in the good/light transitions though. I tend to stay in the grey area anyway cause I just make choices based on my preference over whats good/evil. If you feel guilty doing bad things, you should play light-sider hehe

TKA-001 · 02-07-2007, 03:01 PM

It always bothered me how in K1 and K2 you become a Sith Lord by just killing random people. That doesn't make a Sith, it makes a jackass.

Sir Palamides · 02-07-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

It always bothered me how in K1 and K2 you become a Sith Lord by just killing random people. That doesn't make a Sith, it makes a jackass.

*ROFL*
But actually it's right, it's kinda stupid to kill innocent people as a Sith just if you meet them on the way, absurd!

SilentScope001 · 02-07-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

It always bothered me how in K1 and K2 you become a Sith Lord by just killing random people. That doesn't make a Sith, it makes a jackass.

Evil actions that do not invovle killing random people:

1. Convince a person to join the Exchange (to increase standings with The Exchange).
2. Blow up an Swoop Race Droid at Nar Shadda
3. Wage a "secret war" against the Refugee Camp, decreasing their morale so they can surrender to The Exchange.
4. Use Mind Contorl...for almost anything really.
5.Get the military generals on Onderon to leave their post in a non-lethal manner.

There are lot more options for DS actions. Of course, more evil actions that do not invovle murder is a good idea...(altough a killing now and then is pretty nice...the DS converting a human being into nothing more than a monster is usually a common theme in SW).

PoiuyWired · 02-08-2007, 10:36 AM

I think we need some nice Sith Academy training again in k3... cause its so fun and lovely!

The quick and easy path...?

You know what? Thats just a propaganda by the jedis. Walking the darkside is every bit as hard and time consuming, and probably more so. If you fail at the jedis they would throw you on some backwater/undeveloped planet and you will slave for eternalty at some stinkin sheet farms or some lowlife like that... BUT IF YOU FAIL AS A SITH, even by only a weee bit, you would be lucky if you only lose your head.

Sith masters will not have the time o slowly guide you thru your training, and the reason why Sith usually learn their skill fast is that otherwise... well there is no otherwise really... its do or die. Remember a Sith has to deal with dangers anything from his master's wrath, peer backstabbing, impossable missions decided to weed out the week, random experiments, angry jedis etc... Its never something fast, if you try to challange your higher ups before you can win, its bye-bye time.

The reason why hhe darkside seems to be the quick and easy path is that for every Sith you see that walks, a whole bunch of them die trying to get there, so basically, they are a elite bunch. A dumber guy can be a jedi master ... eventually, if he putsa his heart to it, and is able to even barely pass the test... but he won't last a day in Sith training.

So there you go, the so-called quick and easy path...

Rasputin1st · 02-08-2007, 11:53 AM

I have no problem with how you go dark....its just it should be a little harder to turn back. Like eliminating possible lightside answer choices in dialogue.

Mace MacLeod · 02-08-2007, 02:18 PM

Meh.

IMHO, the whole charm of an RPG is that you're in charge of the player you create. If you're going to make a game like KotOR where the player can be LS or DS, you have to make the distinction fairly obvious. If you make game-dependent one-side-or-the-other decisions arbitrary or unclear, you wind up with situations where the player thinks they're going down one path only to discover later on that they went the wrong way and it's too late to change it. There really isn't the time in a game like KotOR to get deep into the decades-long manipulative plans a la Palpatine or construct really elaborate opportunities for treachery and evil stuff later on; LS/DS choices need to be pretty immediate so unfortunately we're always going to be stuck with Jedi Master Flanders vs Darth Obnoxio dialogue choices.

Henz · 02-08-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasputin1st

I have no problem with how you go dark....its just it should be a little harder to turn back. Like eliminating possible lightside answer choices in dialogue.

Well I for one think that you should always get the choice to be a good guy, regardless of what you done in the past.
Opportunities to say nice things should dwindle though as people grow less and less comfortable around you.

PoiuyWired · 02-08-2007, 06:41 PM

Well, I have to agree that being DS does not equal to "Kick Puppy, Recieve Dark Side Points, Net Dark Side Shift" But it woul be nice to have some ways to either avoid LS points by adding the (lie) tag at the back, or more ways to frame/cheat people without resorting to the whack whack Kick Puppy method. Then you would feel more evil, rather than a big bully/thug.

Titanius Anglesmith · 02-08-2007, 08:29 PM

I hate that "give me all your money or I'll kill you" dark side mentality of KotOR. TSL improved a lot on that, but still, there were many of those kind of situations. Now I don't think there should be any elaborate, manipulative plots that take huge amounts of focus just to figure out, but there should definitely be more of those "behind-the-scenes" type of acts.

**JediMaster12** · 02-08-2007, 10:29 PM

I'll be frank, I am not a dark side person. I have never had an easy time playing DS because I go with my natural instinct which is to play nice. However I have noticed that there are the fairly obvious DS comments where you threaten to kill because someone looked at you the wrong way. Unfortunately that makes for nothing but a bully. If you are looking at true Sith, Kreia is better. Being evil is not necessarily brute force. It also includes the lies, deceit and manipulation. One of my baddies, Draconis, I based off of Kreia because I believe the methodical approach is one of the more brillant ways of being bad and rising to power. I hate to use cliches but Hitler is one of those who was brilliant about rising to power. To get somewhere, you need a brain and Kreia was a perfect example. The other two Sith Lords cared for nothing but power and the like. True that is the marking of a Sith Lord but you have to use your brain too.

PoiuyWired · 02-09-2007, 02:14 PM

It Ain't Easy Being Evil...

Salzella · 02-09-2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediMaster12

I'll be frank, I am not a dark side person. I have never had an easy time playing DS because I go with my natural instinct which is to play nice. However I have noticed that there are the fairly obvious DS comments where you threaten to kill because someone looked at you the wrong way. Unfortunately that makes for nothing but a bully. If you are looking at true Sith, Kreia is better. Being evil is not necessarily brute force. It also includes the lies, deceit and manipulation. One of my baddies, Draconis, I based off of Kreia because I believe the methodical approach is one of the more brillant ways of being bad and rising to power. I hate to use cliches but Hitler is one of those who was brilliant about rising to power. To get somewhere, you need a brain and Kreia was a perfect example. The other two Sith Lords cared for nothing but power and the like. True that is the marking of a Sith Lord but you have to use your brain too.

Got to agree with this. especially the bit about not being able to play evil goes against my grain, as it were >.>

Darth Avlectus · 02-09-2007, 02:58 PM

It depends on which path you want to take, IMO, as far as game difficulty.

Both are hard to do in some way.

I'm happy so long as there is a wise aleck droid on your team, and plenty of explosives and lightsabers.

And some babe you can seduce.

Maybe some Killing sprees, GTA status--I miss san andreas! How I long to make mayhem in portland......How liberty city needs a little stirring up. What I wouldn't give to ignite a bunch of army guys with a flamethrower or a molotov cocktail in Vice City...Oh wait I did that already.

As long as the storyline is good (ahem--TSL is somewhat lacking in that department) and the action is good. By you gotta have a little fun.
Don't forget replayability.

I know there is good and bad. I also realize this is JUST A GAME. Well, maybe a little more, but not much. Admittedly I grimmaced at a few things
and had a hard time doing them. I.E. the lady on tatooine in K1 who has a huge wraid plate. I can't help but to help her, since I've been in a similar predicament myself. I figured if I were ever going to do it, I'd go all out.
The comments of dissent you get from your team mates--if words could kill, I'd be dead.

I can put aside feelings just to see what happens. What I am happy with is another story, though.

Good doesn't have to always play nice tho. That's tough love ...or rough justice.

Henz · 02-10-2007, 01:41 PM

Being good just lands you being poor mostly. Thats rather annoying too.

reven0123 · 02-12-2007, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

It always bothered me how in K1 and K2 you become a Sith Lord by just killing random people. That doesn't make a Sith, it makes a jackass.

True you should gain dark side points by being more subtle not killng indiscrimantely as that is a petty pleasure of sadistic fool's to roughly quote Darth Bane.

**JediMaster12** · 02-13-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henz

Being good just lands you being poor mostly. Thats rather annoying too.

Not always. While monetarily poor you may be wealthy in other things like friends and the potential for a favor. In this day in age especially on the political front, favors have a high value especially if they carry weight in certain areas that you may need access to. Unfortunately that mode of think could also be DS and that is how it ensnares you with the subtleties.

Ctrl Alt Del · 02-13-2007, 05:59 PM

I'm pretty sure he was referring to monetary wealth. Unfortunately, that's half-true. You see, you can get MORE money if you're DS, but that doesnt mean that a lightsider will be poor. He'll have enough, but just not s much as a Darksider that steals from old women.

Henz · 02-13-2007, 06:04 PM

Yeah I was refereing to the moo-lah hehe

Allronix · 02-13-2007, 07:40 PM

I'd love to see evil options more like devastating the refugees morale or maipulating the situation. anyone remember Sandoval from Earth: Final Conflict? That guy would make a delightful Sith. Cigarette Smoking Man from X-files? He shot a few people, but mostly he sub-contracted to folks like Krycek or just left someone out to hang while he lit up another Morley. Servalan? Now THAT broad knew how to deal out the pain and make some ice-blooded deals. Kill an old woman for credits? How gauche. There are nastier ways to get what you want. And if you recall, she had no trouble with genocide if it was the most effective tool. There needs to be a few more ways to be a sophisticated bastard.

Likewise, there needs to be ways to be LS other than giving credits to every bum that comes along. There are just as many ways to be a sophisticated lightsider. Superman and Batman are both on the side of angels, but their methodolgy is VERY different.

Rabish Bini · 02-14-2007, 04:14 AM

I find being easy evil, some punk comes up to you and starts messing with your girl, just slice him up and walk away.
But I do like your idea, it would be very interesting.

Grey Master · 02-14-2007, 09:37 AM

The Dark Side is not necessarily evil, depending from which point of view you see it.
In KOTOR and TSL I like playing as a Darksider, because there is more freedom into it, I enjoy the game more doing bad things and driving Kreia crazy.

PazaakPrincess · 02-14-2007, 10:12 AM

I've always been slightly dissapointed in the Dark Side options in both games i.e. the only way you can start down the path is to be nasty and a thug which IMHO is not really how to become a true Sith or Dark Lord you even learn this in the first game in Korriban

Vaelastraz · 02-14-2007, 02:59 PM

Well Kotor II offers some more of the cunning intelligent Darkside.

For example, if you agree to help Vaklu on Onderon (the DS way) you can persuade him into giving you all force sensitives from the entire planet "once this is over". Now of course, you can't actually get something out of that deal, but it's nice in theory.