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Old 02-24-2007, 12:12 AM   #1
SilentScope001
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Should We Know Who the True Sith Are in K3?

This is a serious question.

JediMaster21 sees the True Sith as the ultimate evil, and to be quite fair, we all see it as that way, a mysterious enemy that lurks in the dark, responsible for everything.

Here is my thinking: What if we don't find out what it is by the end of K3?

We can fight it, we can even weaken it, maybe destroy it, but we will not be able to gain a handle on who the True Sith are.

This method...might work. If they pull it off right, they can keep the mysteriousness of the True Sith, keeping them in the dark, and making them scary...it could have the same effect of how TSL worked. The speculation over what the True Sith are can therefore continue, and since speculation is fun, the game can become even more fun. Keeping it vague can allow for a variety of theories (from the common one of the True Sith being remenants of the Sith Empire...to my theory of the True Sith being holocrons).

And, it would seem silly to reveal who the True Sith are. It just does...we set up for something that is so evil, and if we are allowed to have a handle on what this threat is...then it loses its mysteriousness and make it seem...less scary.

I'm thinking "Darth Nihlius-style" mysteriousness here for the True Sith, altough with a bit more detail, and a bit more cooler concept.

Would this plan work? I actually favour it...with all the build-up to the True Sith, I don't want them to destroy it by making it appear weaker than it really is...and making the True Sith be ambigious and scary seems to be the best method. But I don't know what other people think. So, please reply.


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Old 02-24-2007, 12:38 AM   #2
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I wouldn't know what that would bring in Kotor III. I guess if by the end we wouldn't know what they are it could work some way.
To keep the game from being boring I think you should let them do "things". Maybe they do things you cannot stop.
Maybe you will at the end kill their leader which however doesn't mean they are defeated.
It should mean that they would make a Kotor IV.
My opinion, we should either have a "normal" length Kotor III. By normal I mean the same lenght as Kotor I & II. Followed by a Kotor IV in which we finally know who the True Sith are.
Alternatively we should have a much much longer Kotor III in which we understand and destroy / rule over the True Sith.
Otherwise, the war against the True Sith is either to short and not terrible enough. We cannot see the true extent of their evildoing. And I think it would also undo the very good reason.... please fill in...... for Revan to go alone into unknown territories.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:29 AM   #3
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If the game features the True Sith, I wouldn't want them to be portrayed as "the ultimate mysterious evil". Imo that's lame.

The true sith do not need to be stronger than common Jedi/Sith in person, but as a whole they are, because they could be a society where everyone is force sensitive. Similar to the Rakata.

I would like to visit world conquered by the True Sith (under disguise of course ). I don't think they should stay the big mystery. I would find it cool if they had an interesting philosophy which can be explored on those worlds.

Even if we learn everything about the True Sith, there can still be major "turn-around" points in the story. Who knows, perhaps someone inside the galactic senate is their true leader...

So, I would really like to learn about the True Sith in K3, what their society is like, why they do what they do and so on.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:35 AM   #4
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my theori is maybe by "THE TRUE SITH" they mean the species 1000 years before kotor , sith was a species not a faction . the source is the kotor comics maked before the games. They are red skinned humanoid their homeland was koriban for sure and the species got almost all destroyed by Naga Sadow.

Maybe the True sith is Tulak hord , Why ? because hes a BioWare made character he didnt exist in the kotor comics and hes using a lightsaber wich didnt exist in the golden age 5000 years before episode IV ..

that mean that Tulak hord have survive the golden age and maybe hes still alive , i know that you found hes tomb in kotor 2 but... who knows.

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Old 02-24-2007, 06:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
my theori is maybe by "THE TRUE SITH" they mean the species 1000 years before kotor , sith was a species not a faction . the source is the kotor comics maked before the games. snipped for brevity

I agree, If you read the comics the sith origin has been explained, as you say, in the eyes of the sith empire (5000 BBY) Naga Sadow was an exile and ludo Kresh was rightfull Dark lord of the sith, so maybe the true sith are the remnents of his dynasty. or anciant spirits like in the new legacy comics



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Old 02-24-2007, 06:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
my theori is maybe by "THE TRUE SITH" they mean the species 1000 years before kotor , sith was a species not a faction . the source is the kotor comics maked before the games. They are red skinned humanoid their homeland was koriban for sure and the species got almost all destroyed by Naga Sadow.
Pardon me, but I fear you're mistaken. The Sith species are NOT the true Sith, they did NOT live in their own empire 1000 years before KotOR, and they were not destroyed by Naga Sadow.

Their history goes back further than that. The orignal Sith species lived on Korriban AND other worlds of the later Sith empire, but they were not particularly strong in the force.

That changed only after the conflict within the jedi order during the Hundred Year Darkness, when the jedi order exiled all the rebelling dark jedi, who then found their way to Korriban. The Sith species worshipped the fallen jedi like gods and became their slaves. The dark jedi then interbred with them until the original Sith species was pretty much extinct as a unique species.

The Great Hyperspace War when Naga Sadow became dark lord and invaded the republic did not come until almost 2000 years after that. This is the war that preceded the KotOR games (and the original comic books) by about a millennium.

And while people do like to speculate about who and what the true Sith really are, we should take note of what little information we do learn about them in TSL. Because whatever they are in K3, it should be consistent with that.

Just to recap...

Sion (on the Trayus Academy): "It is ancient, a relic that survived the destruction of Malachor. It was always here, far before the Mandalorian Wars. It draws death and hate to it, channels it. Atrocities feed its power, and with its power, it creates hunger. Many Jedi have been consumed by it. {Quiet}It has been here for thousands of years. It is a place where the Sith teachings run strong... it is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith... a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan... and it calls to her as well.She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith... the true Sith... and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban... and beyond.It does not matter.The Lord Revan had the galaxy at his feet, could have made it strong. At the height of his power, he left this place... fled this galaxy.It does not matter. The Lord Revan had the galaxy at his feet, could have made it strong, and he surrendered it to weakness.Like you, Revan touched power and turned away. {Can't believe it, quieter}The chance to heal this fractured galaxy, and he turned away."

Now, we have an empire and we have the ancient Sith. Korriban was the graveyard world of the Sith empire that fell after the Great Hyperspace War. Is it then not a reasonable assumption that these "true" Sith are the survivors or descendants from that fallen empire?

Kreia is even more explicit at the end of TSL...

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way."

Kreia actually mentions the Sith Empire twice here. There can be little doubt, which Sith Empire she is referring to IMHO.

Now, does this mean that we have to reveal all the secrets of the ancient Sith? Of course not. It's always good to leave a few stones unturned for future plots. But we do NEED a confrontation with these Sith, because they are clearly gone by the movies era, and the Sith Empire has been replaced by a much-reduced Sith order. No one has ever challenged Palpatine's or Vader's claim to be the Sith Lords of their time, and doing so would violate the fundamental basis that the original movie trilogy forms the final, deciding confrontation between the jedi and the sith. So the remnants of the Sith Empire must be done away with. That's what K3 should do.


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Old 02-24-2007, 06:42 AM   #7
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Don't accuse people of lying unless you have proof--it's far more common for people to make mistakes than it is to outright lie. --Jae

.... lol have you ever read the comics ??? dont look like you did...

they lived 1000 years before kotor if you want proof ill jsut have to take a screenshots of the timeline on the comics .

and yes naga sadow have almost killed all hes species ... ~snipped~ ( i wish i can scan my comics and post them here to show what The species and naga sadow was .) but because of the LA forum and copy right of Darkhorse comics i cant.

second
you said "but they were not particularly strong in the force."
~snipped~ --JaeNaga Sadow was able to make illusion that was able to kill by their own fear .

He was also able to make planet go nova by hes ship help the sith wer strong in the force either lightsaber skills if you look at what kreia said It was said of Hord that he was the greatest of the ancient lightsaber masters of the Sith. Kreia stated that compared to him, "all the greatest masters since were as children playing with toys."

anyway 80 % of your information is speculation and nothing come with solid info.

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Old 02-24-2007, 07:01 AM   #8
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Has anyone considered that the True Sith maybe aren't the remnants of the Sith we know about from the Great Hyperspace War?

I mean, Malachor V and it's Trayus academy are created by Kotor. You find no mentioning of the planet in the comics. Also, from Kotor I we know that one's all Rakata were force sensitive.
Then "the plague" happened and they were all cut off from it. Anyone else thinks maybe someone / some people wanted to cut them off from it. The Exile could say to Kreia in a conversation about Visas / the Miraluka that someone maybe wanted to blind the Miraluka.
What if the True Sith are somehow responsible for that?

Blinding one force sensitive race, cutting off the force from another force sensitive race?
It all goes back a much longer time then a thousand years
Quote:
It has been here for thousands of years
Not one thousand but "thousands" of years.
Speculation: We are maybe more likely to deal with other sith then the ones we have seen in the Great Hyperspace War comics.
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:59 AM   #9
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the best way to do this is to bring a main object - goal - to the story of III which is not who are the Sith but stopping a threat with them involved of course.

It would be interesting if they added some elements to the gameplay (lightsaber moves or force powers) where the player (which might be originally a jedi as usual) cannot use these them but the sith knights can in order to keep them interesting and in the dark.
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Old 02-24-2007, 08:33 AM   #10
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snipped Darth Zayne's quote

FYI, I own all the comics myself (except for Jedi vs. Sith, which are 3000 years after the KotOR games). So yes, I have read them. They are all about six or seven feet away from me on a shelf as I type this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
they lived 1000 years before kotor if you want proof ill jsut have to take a screenshots of the timeline on the comics .

and yes naga sadow have almost killed all hes species ... ~snipped~ ( i wish i can scan my comics and post them here to show what The species and naga sadow was .) but because of the LA forum and copy right of Darkhorse comics i cant.
You really should both take note of what I said precisely and check out the links I provided. Although the validity of Wookieepedia can, like any wiki, be called into question, the entrances I provided do cite the original material.

What I said was that the Sith species were pretty much gone as unique species. This is true in that they had interbred so much with the dark jedi who settled on Korriban almost 3000 years before the KotOR games that there were few or no individuals left of pure Sith species blood. Ironically Naga Sadow is himself said to be of pure Sith blood, though his portrayal - written later in the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books seem to rule out any question that he must have both human and Sith species ancestors, as he seems more human than the other Sith of the story. Ludo Kressh and others certainly had some characteristics of the Sith species, but they had both human and Sith ancestors - they were not uniquely members of the Sith species.

Really, how can you bemoan lack of screenshots, when all you had to do was to click the links I provided to get them...

Remember the first rule That was not necessary. --Jae

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
second
you said "but they were not particularly strong in the force."

~snipped~ Naga Sadow was able to make illusion that was able to kill by their own fear .
Again, you're proceding on a faulty basis. The original Sith species worshipped the outcast dark jedi as gods precisely because those dark jedi were much more powerful than they were themselves. The sith species had potential to become powerful in the force, so they must either have been force sensitive on some level, or else they gained the ability from subsequent interbreeding with the outcast dark jedi. That the Sith species was not a great empire ruled by powerful force users before the dark jedi came seems to suggest the latter. But either way, the Sith species learned from those dark jedi as they interbred with them - that's why the descendants of the dark jedi and the orginal Sith species like Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow are powerful in the force.

So no, I'm not crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
He was also able to make planet go nova by hes ship help the sith wer strong in the force either lightsaber skills if you look at what kreia said It was said of Hord that he was the greatest of the ancient lightsaber masters of the Sith. Kreia stated that compared to him, "all the greatest masters since were as children playing with toys."
Not exactly... What Kreia says is this:

Kreia: "This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived."

Kreia: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

Note: the above are cut+pasted directly from the dialog.tlk file of TSL.

So while Kreia says that the ancient Sith Lords were powerful in lightsaber combat, she only ever identifies Tulak Hord as one of them.

Interestingly, Tulak Hord himself predates the Great Hyperspace War, which seems to undermine your position even further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
anyway 80 % of your information is speculation and nothing come with solid info.
No, but then I can safely encourage you to prove me wrong, since I know that you cannot. Also, I have provided sources to support my information, while you have provided none. You really should have checked that out before you responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khawk
Has anyone considered that the True Sith maybe aren't the remnants of the Sith we know about from the Great Hyperspace War?

I mean, Malachor V and it's Trayus academy are created by Kotor. You find no mentioning of the planet in the comics.
True, but Kreia does tie Malachor to the Sith Empire of Great Hyperspace War.

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."


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Old 02-24-2007, 10:00 AM   #11
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Should we know who the True Sith are in K3? Why not. I don't it's vital though
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
This is a serious question.
Here is my thinking: What if we don't find out what it is by the end of K3?
snipped for brevity --Jae
Depends how they do the mystery, if its like TSL where too much is left unexplained then no. As long as we get to fight the True Sith, we will discover something about them. Personally I would prefer the threat of the True Sith to be destroyed by The Exile, Revan and the new PC. Perhaps the True Sith are such a threat that even if Revan is DS and the Exile LS they fight togeather anyway to stop the True Sith.

Darth Zayne I would advise you listen to Jediphile, he is right reguarding the history of KotOR so you would do well to stop arguing over it. As for who the True Sith are, in my opinion they arent conected via biology to the Ancient Sith, I think it will be a set of beliefs.



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Old 02-24-2007, 12:49 PM   #13
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Well, i would say yes, because i can't help but feel KOTOR will be a trilogy, so presumably they will be revealing themselves in the finale.
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Old 02-24-2007, 02:53 PM   #14
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you said that i have take my source from wiki , yes and no because its was kreia told you in kotor 2 when you go at the tulak hord and its not what you have said again another modified information made by you...


second you talk about original sith , iam not sure what your saying because i think your lying by saying that you have read all the kotor comics and you talk about jedi vs sith comics wich is not even in the kotor era ....

i think you wer talking about the massassi warriors no they are not sith they are warrior , slave . naga sadow and ludo , marka ragnos wer sith , after you got ajunta pal wich is half human , and freedon nadd wich is human who have kill hes own master because hes master said that the concil have refuse him to get the jedi knight title later freedon nadd have been the aprentice of naga sadow ( WICH SURVIVE THE GREATH HYPER SPACE WARS ) then freedon nadd killed him after 20 years , freedon nadd got killed later on orderon..

if the moderator agree ill post scans of my commics i just dont want to break the rules of this forum or the copyright of darkhorse comics (i just respect the greath works of darkhorse.)

You can post links, but posting scans of the entire comic would violate Fair Use laws. --Jae

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Old 02-24-2007, 03:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
you said that i have take my source from wiki , yes and no because its was kreia told you in kotor 2 when you go at the tulak hord and its not what you have said again another modified information made by you...
Fine. Check the game and see if my quotation of Kreia is not accurate. Again, I can safely challenge you to do so, since I already know that I copy+pasted correctly from what's in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
second you talk about original sith , iam not sure what your saying because i think your lying by saying that you have read all the kotor comics and you talk about jedi vs sith comics wich is not even in the kotor era ....
You know, automatically suspecting the other person of lying is not very polite. It also does not make for a very good tone here or for a good basis of discussion. In this case it is also ill adviced, since you're just plain wrong on a few points.

What is and what is not the KotOR era is a good question. Do we go by the games or the comic books? Anyway, it doesn't matter, because if you reread what I said, you'd notice that I do not discuss the "Jedi vs. Sith" comic book in any way. I have not read it, and it doesn't matter either, because it takes place almost 3000 years after all other KotOR/Tales of the Jedi comic books or games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
i think you wer talking about the massassi warriors no they are not sith they are warrior , slave . naga sadow and ludo , marka ragnos wer sith , after you got ajunta pal wich is half human , and freedon nadd wich is human who have kill hes own master because hes master said that the concil have refuse him to get the jedi knight title later freedon nadd have been the aprentice of naga sadow ( WICH SURVIVE THE GREATH HYPER SPACE WARS ) then freedon nadd killed him after 20 years , freedon nadd got killed later on orderon..
The massassi were the warrior slave-race of the Sith Empire. Naga Sadow very clearly didn't kill them, since they are still his slaves helping him build his temple on Yavin IV after the fall of the Sith Empire. He sacrificed a lot of them in his battles, yes, but he was nowhere near driving them to extinction. Heck, he STILL has some left on Yavin IV in time to "greet" Exar Kun a full 1000 years AFTER the Great Hyperspace War!

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massassi - This link even proves my point: "Over the generations, the Sith interbred with the Human Dark Jedi through a practice of the intermixing of Human and Sith bloodlines which became known as Sith Alchemy. Eventually, the Sith species in its original form was almost extinct."

The final fates of both Naga Sadow and Freedon Nadd are not known, actually. You're correct that Nadd was somehow supposed to learn from Sadow. However, how that was accomplished is unknown. After all, Sadow fled to Yavin IV around 5000 BBY when the Sith Empire fell, and Freedon Nadd lived around 4400 BBY, almost 600 years later. Did Sadow live for 600 years?!? It doesn't seem very likely, but we really don't know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthZayne
if the moderator agree ill post scans of my commics i just dont want to break the rules of this forum or the copyright of darkhorse comics (i just respect the greath works of darkhorse.)
Why bother? Most of the stuff you'd put here is already available by simply clicking on the links I've previously provided. Besides, since I have all those comic books myself, I've already seen it all. Feel free to quote page and book, though. I don't understand why you protest so much, when even the ghost of Ragnos explains the fall of the dark jedi and how they reached Korriban when they were cast out of by the jedi after the Great Schism (which he called it, since the book was written before the subsequent retcon, when another, earlier great schism was established). Ragnos' ghost explained that "Golden Age of the Sith" in order to stop the duel between Sadow and Kressh. It's all right there - just look at it, already.


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Old 02-24-2007, 03:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
but they were not particularly strong in the force.
Long before the Republic rose, there lived a culture on the planet Korriban. These primitive people were called the Sith, and the Force flowed strongly through their bloodlines. Although they didn't practice the Force as the Jedi would, they were talented in their own brand of magic.(star wars.com)


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Old 02-24-2007, 04:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
Long before the Republic rose, there lived a culture on the planet Korriban. These primitive people were called the Sith, and the Force flowed strongly through their bloodlines. Although they didn't practice the Force as the Jedi would, they were talented in their own brand of magic.
Well, they were conquered with easy by the dark jedi, whom they then began to worship as gods. And these were the dark jedi who just got kicked out of the republic, too... So basically the original Sith species on Korriban lost to the losers of the Hundred Years Darkness. Somehow that doesn't make them seem particularly powerful at that point in time...


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Old 02-24-2007, 04:19 PM   #18
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^^^
Although an ancient species with some basic technology, the sith were a sub-serviant people who would be easily cohersed, the jedi were of superior intelect, and we all know, Intelligence is a far greater weopon than might.


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Old 02-24-2007, 04:38 PM   #19
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It'd certainly feel more complete if I get to know exactly what the true sith is. Especially if it's the ultimate enemy we're gonna deal with- how can you not know your enemy while you fight it? It just sounds impractical.

Besides, what Kreia said about the True Sith was pretty vivid, as if she herself had encountered them before. I don't think it's a good basis for some cloudy, undefined enemy.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
^^^
Although an ancient species with some basic technology, the sith were a sub-serviant people who would be easily cohersed, the jedi were of superior intelect, and we all know, Intelligence is a far greater weopon than might.
Agreed, but that is not given as the reason for why the Sith species began to see the outcast dark jedi as gods. What impressed them was their greater technology and their force powers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred_Years_Darkness


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Old 02-24-2007, 05:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Agreed, but that is not given as the reason for why the Sith species began to see the outcast dark jedi as gods. What impressed them was their greater technology and their force powers.
^^^
This was just my idea of how the Jedi took over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
urlhttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred_Years_Darkness[/url]
^^^
The source's stated for this article ( new essential chronology, insider, guide to charactors) don't go into detail of how they gained control of the sith, besides anybody can edit wookieepedia


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Old 02-24-2007, 06:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
^^^
The source's stated for this article ( new essential chronology, insider, guide to charactors) don't go into detail of how they gained control of the sith, besides anybody can edit wookieepedia
Look at how the ghost of Marka Ragnos describes the formation of the Sith Empire in "Golden Age of the Sith." It basically confirms it all, albeit in lesser details.


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Old 02-24-2007, 08:35 PM   #23
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I think we should find out who the True Sith are. Are they connected to the Ancient Sith in any way, or do they just follow their ideals? That's a question I would like to know the answer to. I definitely don't like them being the "ultimate evil" that's behind everything bad that happens in the galaxy. That seems a little unbelievable in my opinion.

@DarthZayne - You should listen to Jediphile. He's right, and you shouldn't accuse someone, who obviously knows what they're talking about, of lying when you have no basis for it.

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Old 02-24-2007, 08:53 PM   #24
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K3 is a trilogy, and since most of the important events that happened in the galaxy over the last few years were caused or influenced by the True Sith, I don't think it'd be right to close the trilogy without seeing/fighting/learning about the true sith.


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Old 02-25-2007, 02:42 AM   #25
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You probably wpuld in K3 anyway, most questions should be answered about this ancient and evil group. We know alot about the Sith already from reading, watching and playing things related to Star Wars, but i cannot help but wonder how much more there still is to be educated on.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Look at how the ghost of Marka Ragnos describes the formation of the Sith Empire in "Golden Age of the Sith." It basically confirms it all, albeit in lesser details.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, it's just my take on what detail Iv'e read


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Old 02-25-2007, 01:09 PM   #27
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Old 02-26-2007, 12:23 AM   #28
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Things we need to know about the True Sith in KotOR III are:

1. Why didnít they attack their enemies after the Jedi Civil War?
2. How long have they been in the unknown regions?
3. What have they been doing in the unknown regions?
4. Is this threat physical or spiritual?

The answers to these questions will most likely go a long way to revealing who they are. Still, Iíd be surprised if they arenít the remnant descendants of Ludo Kresshís armada.


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