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Old 03-22-2007, 05:12 PM   #41
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Culturally and philosophically they therefore would fall closest to the Marka Ragnos/Ludo Kressh/Naga Sadow line of Sith and Dark Side Force users. My impression, however, differs from others stated. I would classify these Sith more along the lines of "fanatical" than cold, calculating, and heartless. The Sith whom the exiled Jedi encountered treated, maybe even worshipped, those Jedi as gods. I'm not versed enough in the EU to know whether that's how they viewed Ragnos, Kressh, and Sadow, but by virtue of the tombs on Korriban it would seem that the Dark Lords of the Sith were still revered as entities of great power at that time.
I agree, and most of your suppositions are correct. You do have to factor in the time, however. The dark jedi exiled after the Hundred Year Darkness were indeed worshipped as gods on Korriban by original Sith species, but that was around 6900 BBY, almost 2000 years before the time of Ragnos, Sadow, and Kressh. By their time the exiled dark jedi and the sith species had interbred so much that there was little distinction between them, and the worship of the "others" had stopped (since they were all pretty much the same at that point). Naga Sadow, however, was more human than most, though he still had clear sith features.



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Old 03-22-2007, 07:19 PM   #42
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I think the True Sith will be vastly diffirent to the way we've seen the Sith in the games before. Revan would be an example of a True Sith, or even the Mandalorians. They lived by the belief of 'survival of the fittest' and sought to test themselves against others in order to become stronger. Revan's ultimate aim was to bring down the Republic which he saw as stagnent and weak and rebuild it so that it could fend off any opposition. And if he failed, then Revan would see that the Republic could well handle the threat he knew was coming, as his conflict would strengthen them.
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Old 03-23-2007, 11:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I think the True Sith will be vastly diffirent to the way we've seen the Sith in the games before. Revan would be an example of a True Sith, or even the Mandalorians. They lived by the belief of 'survival of the fittest' and sought to test themselves against others in order to become stronger. Revan's ultimate aim was to bring down the Republic which he saw as stagnent and weak and rebuild it so that it could fend off any opposition. And if he failed, then Revan would see that the Republic could well handle the threat he knew was coming, as his conflict would strengthen them.
There is no basis to support that position. And no, that was not Revan's ultimate aim - not in my game, and likely not in the games of many other players either.


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Old 03-23-2007, 12:05 PM   #44
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Old 03-23-2007, 03:10 PM   #45
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There is no basis to support that position. And no, that was not Revan's ultimate aim - not in my game, and likely not in the games of many other players either.
But, it is an interesting theory.

What I want: The True Sith to be Sith, to be "true", and to be something totally different from what we all are saying is the True Sith.


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Old 03-23-2007, 05:15 PM   #46
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There's a site on the Internet called Wookiepedia, ~snipped~ Very worthwhile reading.

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Old 03-23-2007, 06:45 PM   #47
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We're not 4 years old, so I think we all know this. Wookieepedia isn't all-knowing.
Just what I was thinking.

I enjoy reading the wookie', but you can edit it yourself and it can stretch the truth abit, it gets alot of vandals wrecking stuff too.

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If you can name a better source, I'm all ears.
Your best bet is a book called the Essential Chronology, which covers pretty much every charactor and event in galactic history, Also star wars.com has a data bank.


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Old 03-23-2007, 06:47 PM   #48
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Neither are you. If you can name a better source, I'm all ears.
True, it is the best source for stuff like that, but it certainly isn't perfect.


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Old 03-23-2007, 07:04 PM   #49
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There's a site on the Internet called Wookiepedia,
Indeed. Only it supports little or nothing of what you suggest. Revan fell to the dark side, but we don't know why - TSL obscured Revan's motives, and TSL is a far better source than Wookieepedia, since whatever is written on Wookieepedia is based on what is in TSL and not the other way around. Besides, any idiot can log into most wikis and rewrite the entries to whatever they please. Is both the greatest strength and greatest weakness of any wiki (and recently particularly the latter...)

Kreia: "Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

Besides, we know nothing about the true Sith, except that Kreia actually mentions the old Sith Empire in relation to them.

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

You can find only one Sith Empire on the source you value so highly.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire


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Old 03-23-2007, 07:34 PM   #50
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It's not an opinion I value so highly, it was one I read and shared.

Besides, what is established as fact for Revan? He defied the Jedi to fight the Mandalorians, then sought the Star Maps before returning to lead the Sith. All the details of what happens in the games is really up to the player, Revan being male and the light side ending being canon are even things open to scrutiny.

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Old 03-23-2007, 08:08 PM   #51
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Neither are you. If you can name a better source, I'm all ears.
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:19 PM   #52
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Thanks. Hmmm, it describes the Exile as male. Does the site need to be updated or were the claims of the Exile being officiallyt female wrong?
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:58 AM   #53
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Well, it is lucky that the only gender related Exile material is a "she" described in the Droids book. Which means that not much is known about her besides her being LSF, and technically we can still ignore many of the characters that we would not want to remember. Though it is known that the G0T0 HK/Remote conflict is canon.

Plus, he or she can be merely a description/placeholder to avoid using Revan/Exile in every single sentence.
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Besides, what is established as fact for Revan? He defied the Jedi to fight the Mandalorians, then sought the Star Maps before returning to lead the Sith. All the details of what happens in the games is really up to the player, Revan being male and the light side ending being canon are even things open to scrutiny.
That's just the point. We know only the facts of what Revan did or did not do, precisely because Revan's motives are for the player to choose. One of the good things in TSL was that they had Kreia underscore that by voicing speculation about Revan's motives even before Malak's betrayal. Was Revan trying to create his/her own empire or was Revan trying to save the Republic? Well, you tell me - you're the one playing him/her. It's different to every player, and TSL preserved that idea.


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Old 03-24-2007, 06:46 PM   #55
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Well, it is lucky that the only gender related Exile material is a "she" described in the Droids book.
So...how many sources are needed for it to be official? Or is this one of those 'Han shoots first' type of things where no matter what people won't accept it?
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Old 03-24-2007, 08:26 PM   #56
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Well, I accept Exile being Female. Though I am just trying to say that the exact nature of these characters are designed to be ambiguous and the fact of Revan/Exile being male/female should not have any "major" impact on things to come. More like, it would make things easier in designing future events.

Now, the "Han Shoots First" case is a whole different can of worms. Personally HAN SHOOTS FIRST FOREVER and I am sure most fans are with me on this, but yeah starting this topic anywhere in a star wars forum can't be good.
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:07 PM   #57
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Well, I accept Exile being Female. Though I am just trying to say that the exact nature of these characters are designed to be ambiguous and the fact of Revan/Exile being male/female should not have any "major" impact on things to come. More like, it would make things easier in designing future events.
Personally I hate that they made the exile female in canon, both because the male exile story was far more interesting - Brianna is much better than Mical, and unlike Sion, Atris makes a lot of sense as a lost love interest - and also because I don't think we need to make precisely the most timid and lives-in-denial protagonist of ANY Star Wars game a woman.

But it doesn't matter what I think. The exile is canonically female, and that's that. I'll never accept it in the games, however - my exile is male. Period!

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Now, the "Han Shoots First" case is a whole different can of worms. Personally HAN SHOOTS FIRST FOREVER and I am sure most fans are with me on this, but yeah starting this topic anywhere in a star wars forum can't be good.
The problem with changing the Solo/Greedo fight is that it undermines the characterizion of Han Solo. That scene defined who and what Han Solo was - a scoundrel, perhaps with a good heart, but hard enough to kill up front, when the situation demanded it. It established the foundation of who he was. Changing that means that the foundation his entire character was based on becomes flawed.


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Old 03-24-2007, 10:57 PM   #58
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I agree that making the Exile a female cheapens the story for many reasons. I think the reason they did so was because, out of all the customizable game characters, none of them had been canonized as a woman up till then. What they should do is retcon the Exile to have been a man and Jaden Korr to have been a woman, because the female voice actress for Jaden (the great Jennifer Hale, the same woman who did Bastila) is incomparably better than her male counterpart. I reluctantly accept the Exile as a female, but I can never accept the male Jaden. Hence why my Jaden is always either a human or Twi'lek female.


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Old 03-25-2007, 10:11 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Personally I hate that they made the exile female in canon, both because the male exile story was far more interesting - Brianna is much better than Mical, and unlike Sion, Atris makes a lot of sense as a lost love interest - and also because I don't think we need to make precisely the most timid and lives-in-denial protagonist of ANY Star Wars game a woman.
Quote for Emphasis.

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The problem with changing the Solo/Greedo fight is that it undermines the characterizion of Han Solo. That scene defined who and what Han Solo was - a scoundrel, perhaps with a good heart, but hard enough to kill up front, when the situation demanded it. It established the foundation of who he was. Changing that means that the foundation his entire character was based on becomes flawed.
Thanks.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:26 AM   #60
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they shouldn't be evil, what i mean is the true sith imo aren't initially evil there just people who use the 'dark side' of the force to help them overcome there challenges similar to how the jedi use the 'light side'. so yeah they shouldn't be evil. Not really use about there look i don't really think it matters whatever lucas puts them as u cant disprove there look so doesn't make any difference as long as there not like fairy then i don't really care.
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Old 03-27-2007, 12:11 AM   #61
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Hmmm... Tinkerbell True Sith...

Well, from what I remember, the dark jedis of the 2nd schism took command of the True Sith people, became their leader and god, and interbreed(ack... them girls are ugly) with them. So in a way most True Sith believe is a version of the Sith Code. Now, that is not necessarily a bad thing either. The problem is that most True Sith are killed off, the republic pulls a genocide on Korriban, or something like that. The rest are probably scattered in small pockets around the galaxy, probably where few people come into contact. Now there is that one planet where you may find the True Sith civilization...
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Old 03-27-2007, 12:41 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by KyleOfHarpenden
they shouldn't be evil, what i mean is the true sith imo aren't initially evil there just people who use the 'dark side' of the force to help them overcome there challenges similar to how the jedi use the 'light side'. so yeah they shouldn't be evil. Not really use about there look i don't really think it matters whatever lucas puts them as u cant disprove there look so doesn't make any difference as long as there not like fairy then i don't really care.
Okay dude, first of all...the Sith don't think that they're evil. They think that they're right in their actions, and that in using the powers of the 'Dark Side', it makes them strong to do anything, even change destinies.

Quote:
Kenobi: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
Anakin: From my point of view the Jedi are Evil!
Second of all, if the Sith weren't the "Evil" one's then who is? The Jedi? Your enemy from your view is the wrong one, so one way or another someone has to be "Evil".


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Old 03-27-2007, 08:09 AM   #63
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A lot of it falls into what is commonly accepted as evil. Just about anyone would be against whacking kids, or genocide. These are both Sith traits. I think somewhere the 'survival of the fittest' philosophy, despite it being creditble (Hobbes?) is demonised as being worse than evil, as it condemns the innocent as well as the guilty, or some such.
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Old 03-27-2007, 02:53 PM   #64
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Well, there is also something called "motive" It is quite reasonable to whack the hack out of a kid, if he deliberately cause serious harm to you, like breaking your leg by pushing a car off a snow covered slope(yes it happened to my friend). As for genoside... I can understand it in some cases, like what the Bothans did towards the defeated YV. But motive is the main thing.

Well, the Jedi and what not(republic even) performed what is basically a genocide to the Sith population after its defeat. Obviously the jedi does not work hard to stop this... and is such action Evil?

Sure, Sith is more likely to perform screw up acts, since there is no rules to govern them. But the extent of individual Sith varies alot more than individual jedis usually.

Not trying to say sith are the good guys, but yeah there are examples of groups following the Sith code yet acting reasonabley nice.
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Old 03-27-2007, 09:16 PM   #65
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Sometimes the Jedi were as ruthless as the Sith. That's why they had so many people that hated them.


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Old 03-27-2007, 09:29 PM   #66
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In KOTOR isn't a large part of the reason people don't like Jedi because they didn't do squat about the Mandalorians?
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Old 03-28-2007, 12:30 AM   #67
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I think it's more in part because of the Jedi Civil War where the Jedi turned on their master's. So the people of the galaxy didn't know how to differ between the two anymore.


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Old 03-31-2007, 03:17 PM   #68
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In KOTOR isn't a large part of the reason people don't like Jedi because they didn't do squat about the Mandalorians?
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I think it's more in part because of the Jedi Civil War where the Jedi turned on their master's. So the people of the galaxy didn't know how to differ between the two anymore.
Actually, I think it's both. The republic fleet probably has lingering anger against the masters, as Carth does, for doing squat about the Mandalorians.

The general population would see little difference between jedi and sith, however, because Revan's "sith" were the very jedi heroes who saved them all from the Mandalorians. So basically you have "hero jedi turned evil" and "couldn't give a hoot if the republic lives or dies jedi". That being the case, I can't blame the general population for not bothering to distinguish much between the two, since what difference would it make?


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Old 04-01-2007, 05:30 PM   #69
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I'll tell you. They should be invisible ghosts that you cannot see in the game because they aren't there.

I feel like I harp on this, but why does everyone go "KOTOR III!!!! It must mean True Sith!" just because Kreia mentions True Sith and/or Sith Empire only TWICE (or maybe three) times just at the end of TSL?

I guess the question is: Do you want a TSL-like KOTOR III, or a KOTOR-like KOTOR III. Which was the better game, in fact?

And, this is not to mention that True Sith/Original Sith takes place back in the Naga Sadow/Marka Ragnos Tales of the Jedi era, not the KOTOR era. It's a completely different period of Star Wars history, one that I feel is very removed from KOTOR. So do you want a pre-Tales of the Jedi KOTOR III or a KOTOR III? Probably that is the better question.

Jediphile, you've said in other threads that we should not have planets such as Ossus in KOTOR III because we would be infringing on other time periods in SW, periods that already have their own story and are not connected to KOTOR - and I agree. But how is this any different? Would not this be a prequel game also? Please, we're talking about going to ancient True Sith planets with wierd alien populations and philosophies that are almost non-canon with the original SW philosophy (I'm talking about all this grey stuff and everything).
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:02 PM   #70
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I'll tell you. They should be invisible ghosts that you cannot see in the game because they aren't there.

I feel like I harp on this, but why does everyone go "KOTOR III!!!! It must mean True Sith!" just because Kreia mentions True Sith and/or Sith Empire only TWICE (or maybe three) times just at the end of TSL?

I guess the question is: Do you want a TSL-like KOTOR III, or a KOTOR-like KOTOR III. Which was the better game, in fact?

And, this is not to mention that True Sith/Original Sith takes place back in the Naga Sadow/Marka Ragnos Tales of the Jedi era, not the KOTOR era. It's a completely different period of Star Wars history, one that I feel is very removed from KOTOR. So do you want a pre-Tales of the Jedi KOTOR III or a KOTOR III? Probably that is the better question.

Jediphile, you've said in other threads that we should not have planets such as Ossus in KOTOR III because we would be infringing on other time periods in SW, periods that already have their own story and are not connected to KOTOR - and I agree. But how is this any different? Would not this be a prequel game also? Please, we're talking about going to ancient True Sith planets with wierd alien populations and philosophies that are almost non-canon with the original SW philosophy (I'm talking about all this grey stuff and everything).
The difference is that we know Exar Kun is trapped in his temple on Yavin IV until freed in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that Ood is, erm, "rooted" on Ossus until Dark Empire II. You can't interfere with that. Sith Empire worlds like Ziost, Thule or Karh Shian have no such problem, however, because there is no established canonic history, at least to my knowledge, for the devs to screw up. Therefore they are blank and unused loose ends that have plot potential. I know quite well that Sadow and Ragnos and their empire fell a millennium before the KotOR games, but that doesn't mean that all the survivors of their fallen empire just rolled over and died spontaneously in shame or committed mass suicide. It makes far more sense to me that they'd hide, try to rebuild, and eventually take revenge on the republic. Kreia even mentions a few things that could point to that. For example:

1. Kreia mentions that the Jedi Civil War was not the first of its kind and that long ago a similar split led to the exile of the dark jedi. Always seemed to be a reference to the Second Schism and the Hundred Years Darkness to me. Those exiled dark jedi founded the Sith Empire.

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

3. Kreia also mentions that Malachor V, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait in the dark. There is only one Sith Empire that I've ever heard of (unless you count Revan's, which very clearly is not what Kreia is referring to). Korriban is certainly tied to the Sith Empire of Sadow and Ragnos, since it is where the exiled dark jedi landed and founded the Sith Empire.

Indeed, for a game that is, as you say, set in a completely different time period, it is very odd that there are so many references to Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, the exiled dark jedi, Korriban, etc. Unless, of course, those references are meant to have signficance later in the evolving plot.

And just why would they bother to have Kreia mention the true Sith at the end, if they are not going to be important in the next game? That makes no sense at all. Sure, she could have just mentioned as "an ancient evil that we must be wary of." That would have worked too without demanding a sequel that deals with it. But it's not what she says. No what she says is this:

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

and

Kreia (talking about Revan): "If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things."

So we have three things established from the above...

1. There is a great war coming.
2. Malachor, Korriban and the "true Sith" are tied to the old Sith Empire.
3. The exile will likely go and fight side by side with Revan "at the end of all things"


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Old 04-01-2007, 09:34 PM   #71
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kk i got one......the true sith should be like nihilus.... freak voice..... scary looking and angry lol
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Old 04-01-2007, 11:17 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
The difference is that we know Exar Kun is trapped in his temple on Yavin IV until freed in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that Ood is, erm, "rooted" on Ossus until Dark Empire II. You can't interfere with that. Sith Empire worlds like Ziost, Thule or Karh Shian have no such problem, however, because there is no established canonic history, at least to my knowledge, for the devs to screw up. Therefore they are blank and unused loose ends that have plot potential. I know quite well that Sadow and Ragnos and their empire fell a millennium before the KotOR games, but that doesn't mean that all the survivors of their fallen empire just rolled over and died spontaneously in shame or committed mass suicide. It makes far more sense to me that they'd hide, try to rebuild, and eventually take revenge on the republic. Kreia even mentions a few things that could point to that. For example:

1. Kreia mentions that the Jedi Civil War was not the first of its kind and that long ago a similar split led to the exile of the dark jedi. Always seemed to be a reference to the Second Schism and the Hundred Years Darkness to me. Those exiled dark jedi founded the Sith Empire.

2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.

3. Kreia also mentions that Malachor V, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait in the dark. There is only one Sith Empire that I've ever heard of (unless you count Revan's, which very clearly is not what Kreia is referring to). Korriban is certainly tied to the Sith Empire of Sadow and Ragnos, since it is where the exiled dark jedi landed and founded the Sith Empire.

Indeed, for a game that is, as you say, set in a completely different time period, it is very odd that there are so many references to Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, the exiled dark jedi, Korriban, etc. Unless, of course, those references are meant to have signficance later in the evolving plot.

And just why would they bother to have Kreia mention the true Sith at the end, if they are not going to be important in the next game? That makes no sense at all. Sure, she could have just mentioned as "an ancient evil that we must be wary of." That would have worked too without demanding a sequel that deals with it. But it's not what she says. No what she says is this:

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

and

Kreia (talking about Revan): "If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things."

So we have three things established from the above...

1. There is a great war coming.
2. Malachor, Korriban and the "true Sith" are tied to the old Sith Empire.
3. The exile will likely go and fight side by side with Revan "at the end of all things"
Okay...that makes sense. But should the game contain "The End of All Things"? Or should they start over with another character who leaves known space at the end of the game and just leave the Great War up to the player's imagination?
I personally like the KOTOR series because of its gameplay and storyline progression, and that's all I need to expect from the third installment should it be installed...


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Old 04-01-2007, 11:22 PM   #73
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Okay...that makes sense. But should the game contain "The End of All Things"? Or should they start over with another character who leaves known space at the end of the game and just leave the Great War up to the player's imagination?
The latter one sounds...interesting. But we already have that, with The Exile (at least an LS Exile, not sure about DS Exile) leaving known space at the end of the game, leaving the Great War up to the player's imagination. The aftermath of that Great War, and seeing Revan and Exile fail to destroy the True Sith should be played, with the Player mounting the last defense against the True Sith Empire...but the actual Great War can be left to fan fic writers.


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Old 04-02-2007, 12:04 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The latter one sounds...interesting. But we already have that, with The Exile (at least an LS Exile, not sure about DS Exile) leaving known space at the end of the game, leaving the Great War up to the player's imagination. The aftermath of that Great War, and seeing Revan and Exile fail to destroy the True Sith should be played, with the Player mounting the last defense against the True Sith Empire...but the actual Great War can be left to fan fic writers.
Er... Isn't what you described the very essence and climax of that great war?


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Old 04-02-2007, 12:28 PM   #75
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Er... Isn't what you described the very essence and climax of that great war?
There are two wars.

War 1: Revan and Exile vs. True Sith. (Started up in between K1 and TSL, with Exile coming in after TSL)

War 2: Third Character vs. True Sith. (Starting up in K3)

The first war will not be described, but the results is obivous: either stalemate or loss. The second war is the invasion of Known galaxy and what will be covered by K3. In this War, the Third Character would defeat the True Sith.


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Old 04-02-2007, 01:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
The difference is that we know Exar Kun is trapped in his temple on Yavin IV until freed in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that Ood is, erm, "rooted" on Ossus until Dark Empire II. You can't interfere with that. Sith Empire worlds like Ziost, Thule or Karh Shian have no such problem, however, because there is no established canonic history, at least to my knowledge, for the devs to screw up.
But that isn't the problem that I have with them, its because the planets themselves belong to a different time period. I know that there is hardly any storyline to get entagled with on them taking place throughout KOTOR, but they are planets, as I said, from a pre-Republic to ancient Republic era.

Not, mind you, a KOTOR era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Therefore they are blank and unused loose ends that have plot potential.
Blank and unused? Yes. Plot potential? Maybe, if KOTOR is going to be a Tales of the Jedi-like game. Loose ends? No. There is nothing to tie up in KOTOR, because they aren't even connected to KOTOR in the first place. I'm just saying, loose ends is not the right term. Nothing happened there that needs to be resolved in the KOTOR era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I know quite well that Sadow and Ragnos and their empire fell a millennium before the KotOR games, but that doesn't mean that all the survivors of their fallen empire just rolled over and died spontaneously in shame or committed mass suicide. It makes far more sense to me that they'd hide, try to rebuild, and eventually take revenge on the republic.
Well, actually, that isn't a bad description of what did happen to them. I'll tell you a bit better - they died out. There is no Original Sith left, KOTOR even says it, and its validated by most of the comics or EU fill-in between the major eras of SW. They died out, fled, were killed, and just became extinct after Ragnos and Sadow were killed. Remember, they just used the Original Sith as an army or slave force. The Sith Lords were the real threat to the Republic.

In fact, most of the Sith and dark Jedi that became enemies to the Republic in the next Schism with Revan and Malak were completely removed from that old Empire. Ever read any of the background stuff to the first KOTOR, what is going on with the SW universe during that time? About 98-99% percent of Malak's forces are betrayers and converts from the Republic. The older stuff, like the Star Forge, and all that, is stuff they just used to get their Empire going. Their forces are all people who left the Republic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Kreia even mentions a few things that could point to that. For example:

1. Kreia mentions that the Jedi Civil War was not the first of its kind and that long ago a similar split led to the exile of the dark jedi. Always seemed to be a reference to the Second Schism and the Hundred Years Darkness to me. Those exiled dark jedi founded the Sith Empire.
And your point is....? She also tells you that Revan was trained by many masters during the time he was a padawan. Means nothing to the story, its just background info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
2. In the Valley of the Dark Lord on Korriban, Kreia tells us that civil wars are common among the sith. We can take that to mean whatever we want, but for me it could be a reference to what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the true Sith have not attacked already.
So you got from "Civil wars are common amount the Sith" to "Revan is fighting the True Sith in the Unknown Regions."

Not to be condescending, but.... Wow. How did you get from point A to point B? Goodness, Atton tells us that Sith Lords squabble between each other. Well, that obviously means that something is going on in the Unknown Regions, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
3. Kreia also mentions that Malachor V, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait in the dark. There is only one Sith Empire that I've ever heard of (unless you count Revan's, which very clearly is not what Kreia is referring to). Korriban is certainly tied to the Sith Empire of Sadow and Ragnos, since it is where the exiled dark jedi landed and founded the Sith Empire.
Used to be tied to. The Empire is gone now.

As for the rest of your point, I'll answer that later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Indeed, for a game that is, as you say, set in a completely different time period, it is very odd that there are so many references to Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, the exiled dark jedi, Korriban, etc. Unless, of course, those references are meant to have signficance later in the evolving plot.
Unless, of course, this is the remnants of the time period that happened before KOTOR and everyone is remembering because another schism was happening with Revan...... Maybe? Geez, I remember the Rodian on the station talking about Yavin IV, and the Sith Lord that was entombed there - he was remembering what had happened, since it hadn't happened that long ago. He also talks about a lot of other things that happened with that guy and Yavin IV, but it sure didn't mean anything for the story, did it?

Just because some drunk in a cantina tells you about something that happened in the cantina with the Sith a few years ago means absolutely nothing. It's called BACKGROUND, my friend.

I'll add some more later... I have to go.
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:14 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
But that isn't the problem that I have with them, its because the planets themselves belong to a different time period. I know that there is hardly any storyline to get entagled with on them taking place throughout KOTOR, but they are planets, as I said, from a pre-Republic to ancient Republic era.

Not, mind you, a KOTOR era.
Yes, but so what? By that reasoning we shouldn't have Tatooine, Manaan or Kashyyyk in KotOR either since they "belong" to the movies-era. Sorry, but I don't see what this is any problem whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Blank and unused? Yes. Plot potential? Maybe, if KOTOR is going to be a Tales of the Jedi-like game.
KotOR IS Tales of the Jedi. Period! The entire era grew out of the original comics, and names like Exar Kun, Ulic, Nomi and others are heard again and again throughout the games. You cannot separate the two. Indeed, the collection of the five original Tales of the Jedi stories is named "Knights of the Old Republic." That's where that phrase comes from - that's the original source of the name, the games are not. There is no separating the games from that.

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Loose ends? No. There is nothing to tie up in KOTOR, because they aren't even connected to KOTOR in the first place. I'm just saying, loose ends is not the right term. Nothing happened there that needs to be resolved in the KOTOR era.
Maybe I shouldn't have said loose end, because it implies that there is something unfinished in those stories. There is not. But they leave lots of potential unused that can be played on. Abandoning rich history filled with potential like that is one of the things Star Wars expanded universe has always been good at using to its advantage. If you want to see the alternative to that,then look at Star Trek, where the writers have constantly refused to accept anything from any other part of the universe as inspiration. I admit it might be a difficult to see at the moment, though, seeing as how Star Trek is sadly pretty dead at the moment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Well, actually, that isn't a bad description of what did happen to them. I'll tell you a bit better - they died out. There is no Original Sith left, KOTOR even says it, and its validated by most of the comics or EU fill-in between the major eras of SW. They died out, fled, were killed, and just became extinct after Ragnos and Sadow were killed. Remember, they just used the Original Sith as an army or slave force. The Sith Lords were the real threat to the Republic.
The original sith species "died out" long before the time of Sadow and Ragnos, but it was an empire. Even if empires die, that doesn't mean that its entire population suddenly spontaneously combust as a consequence of an ended plotline. There could be hundreds of old Sith worlds out there with their descendents living on them, hoping for the day to reclaim lost glory of the past and revenge themselves on the republic... and the jedi. A people never dies out - there are always surivivors. And Kreia even confirms it.

Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia. It, like Malachor, brushes the edges of the empire that waits in the dark. And like Malachor, the Sith have forgotten it... for a time. They will remember. Revan knew this."

Who can Kreia possibly be talking about here if not the ancient Sith? And just to eliminate any doubt, she even says it outright in different but almost identical quote.

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
In fact, most of the Sith and dark Jedi that became enemies to the Republic in the next Schism with Revan and Malak were completely removed from that old Empire. Ever read any of the background stuff to the first KOTOR, what is going on with the SW universe during that time? About 98-99% percent of Malak's forces are betrayers and converts from the Republic. The older stuff, like the Star Forge, and all that, is stuff they just used to get their Empire going. Their forces are all people who left the Republic.
Yes, Revan's and Malak's Sith have nothing to do with the old Sith Empire. Nor do the Sith of Kreia, Nihilus, and Sion. From the above quotes, however, it seems fairly obvious to me that the true Sith have rather a lot to do with them.

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
And your point is....? She also tells you that Revan was trained by many masters during the time he was a padawan. Means nothing to the story, its just background info.
No, that is actually significant because the identity of Revan's masters becomes important during the course of the game. Kreia rarely says anything without purpose. Looking at it later, it may be obvious why she mentioned something, but that makes me wonder about the reasoning behind talking about those things that did not become obvious during the course of TSL itself. This is one of them.

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
So you got from "Civil wars are common amount the Sith" to "Revan is fighting the True Sith in the Unknown Regions."

Not to be condescending, but.... Wow. How did you get from point A to point B? Goodness, Atton tells us that Sith Lords squabble between each other. Well, that obviously means that something is going on in the Unknown Regions, right?
You're right - obviously it could NEVER in thousands upon thousands of years EVER mean anything like what I'm musing about. Oh, for shame!!! Please forgive my horrible and INEXCUSABLE sin of uttering such pathetic nonsense in your presence. How shall I ever redeem myself in the eyes of the jedi council again? Oh, woe is me!!!

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Used to be tied to. The Empire is gone now.
Yes... and in its place, the true Sith are waiting in the dark...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Unless, of course, this is the remnants of the time period that happened before KOTOR and everyone is remembering because another schism was happening with Revan...... Maybe? Geez, I remember the Rodian on the station talking about Yavin IV, and the Sith Lord that was entombed there - he was remembering what had happened, since it hadn't happened that long ago. He also talks about a lot of other things that happened with that guy and Yavin IV, but it sure didn't mean anything for the story, did it?

Just because some drunk in a cantina tells you about something that happened in the cantina with the Sith a few years ago means absolutely nothing. It's called BACKGROUND, my friend.
I think I'll just let that speak for itself...


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Old 04-02-2007, 10:24 PM   #78
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OK, now to get back. I think I'll just keep going with your response instead of going back.

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Yes, but so what? By that reasoning we shouldn't have Tatooine, Manaan or Kashyyyk in KotOR either since they "belong" to the movies-era. Sorry, but I don't see what this is any problem whatsoever.
Well.... I see what you mean. (shouldn't include Manaan in there, though) Maybe I should say it a different way. Not considering SW eras for planets, more like SW themes. Ziost and Khar whatever belong to the kind of ancient Jedi-use-swords and True Sith are alive slash Yuuzhan Vong strange alien type of SW. Tatooine and Kashyyyk don't - in fact, being in the movies, they make it more similar to KOTOR, as they belong to the kind of story that KOTOR is in - the more "canonical" SW stories.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
KotOR IS Tales of the Jedi. Period! The entire era grew out of the original comics, and names like Exar Kun, Ulic, Nomi and others are heard again and again throughout the games. You cannot separate the two. Indeed, the collection of the five original Tales of the Jedi stories is named "Knights of the Old Republic." That's where that phrase comes from - that's the original source of the name, the games are not. There is no separating the games from that.
Ahem, I beg to differ. KOTOR comes from/after the Tales of the Jedi, it is two different time periods. They aren't the same. Yes, those names are heard in the game - Ulic, Nomi, etc. - but they are not in the game. Period . I will agree, Tales of the Jedi did lead into KOTOR, but they are seperate.

Now, just to be fair, even if they were, the True Sith stuff comes even before that - more specifically, let me give you some dates:

7000 B.B.Y. - the time of the First Schizm, or the Hundred Year Darkness. This is when the first dark Jedi came to power and found the True Sith; also where they were held as gods among the Sith and built an army out of them. After this time, they were driven back into the Unknown Regions and pretty much forgot about the Republic, until....

5000 B.B.Y. - the Golden Age of the Sith, at the height of their power. As I said, they had all but forgotten about the Republic, until those two fateful discoverers stumbled across their Empire. This new contact with the Republic sparked this: The Great Hyperspace War. The Sith were eventually beaten, the True Sith all but destroyed, and the Sith Lords - Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos - they got into their little tombs.

Now, 4400 B.B.Y. - this is when Exar Kun began to use the True Sith again; except now, they were the "Massassi", living on Yavin IV, shrunk greatly from their former power. He started another war with his little minions, and eventually lost. The Massassi were killed, and eventually almost all of the True Sith or their descendants fled or died out. They lost everything, so to speak, and never again got any kind of power - that's why they never returned, and why Korriban and Yavin IV are just ruin-filled shadows of what they once were.

Now, fast-forward to KOTOR, which is - let me see - about 50-100 years ahead of the war with Exar Kun. In fact, it specifically tells you that the True Sith died out. I'm not talking about their long-lost relatives or anything, but all this (which is from your pre-Tales of the Jedi era) are gone.

Now does that put it in perspective?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
There could be hundreds of old Sith worlds out there with their descendents living on them, hoping for the day to reclaim lost glory of the past and revenge themselves on the republic... and the jedi. A people never dies out - there are always surivivors. And Kreia even confirms it.

Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia. It, like Malachor, brushes the edges of the empire that waits in the dark. And like Malachor, the Sith have forgotten it... for a time. They will remember. Revan knew this."

Who can Kreia possibly be talking about here if not the ancient Sith? And just to eliminate any doubt, she even says it outright in different but almost identical quote.

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."
Now this is where it gets confusing, because none of us no what Kreia had in mind. What does True Sith mean? The fact is, a lot of people immediately jump to the assumption that she is talking about wierd Vong-like Sith species, but she never actually says or implies that she is.

Yeah, I know at one point she does say ancient Sith empire, but Korriban and Malachor are part of the ancient Sith empire as well - but it is ancient, and there are no Ancient Sith left. The people who populate them are the dark Jedi who came after them. There's no reason why she can't be talking about the powerful dark Jedi/Sith Lords who have bided their time and are living in the Ancient Sith Empire, without them actually being the Ancient Sith species. Couldn't you agree with that?

BTW, I'd like to know who you think she is talking about to clarify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No, that is actually significant because the identity of Revan's masters becomes important during the course of the game. Kreia rarely says anything without purpose. Looking at it later, it may be obvious why she mentioned something, but that makes me wonder about the reasoning behind talking about those things that did not become obvious during the course of TSL itself.
Er... where did it become important later?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You're right - obviously it could NEVER in thousands upon thousands of years EVER mean anything like what I'm musing about. Oh, for shame!!! Please forgive my horrible and INEXCUSABLE sin of uttering such pathetic nonsense in your presence. How shall I ever redeem myself in the eyes of the jedi council again? Oh, woe is me!!!
Wow.

OK, hang on, buddy, just calm down a bit. When I meant I didn't mean to be condescending, I meant it. No need to overreact like that, seriously.

Now, if it makes you feel better, perhaps I should rephrase that. How did you get from point A on that to point B? If it was just a "musing" based on having the True Sith and Revan actually be there, that's fine. But it was almost like you made that one of your main points, and that's what got me confused. All I could understand was "Kreia tells us that Sith fight amongst themselves, so that could be what Revan is doing in the unknown regions and why the Sith haven't attacked." Kinda confusing, isn't it?

Please calm down and don't take what I said as slamming you or being sarcastic - like you were a bit. I mean it, I don't intend to start a flaming match, and I meant no offense. I just didn't know why you would get so worked up.

But in all that, you still avoided my question, and I don't know what your previous line of reasoning was anymore now than I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes... and in its place, the true Sith are waiting in the dark...
Maybe... Yeah, Kreia said that, I know. It kinda brings something to mind though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor, Eons Ago
And if Kreia said she was your mother you would believe her
No, I'm not suggesting that she was lying or that it means nothing. I'm just saying I don't know what she meant or if she's still scheming; and to be honest, neither do you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Unless, of course, this is the remnants of the time period that happened before KOTOR and everyone is remembering because another schism was happening with Revan...... Maybe? Geez, I remember the Rodian on the station talking about Yavin IV, and the Sith Lord that was entombed there - he was remembering what had happened, since it hadn't happened that long ago. He also talks about a lot of other things that happened with that guy and Yavin IV, but it sure didn't mean anything for the story, did it?

Just because some drunk in a cantina tells you about something that happened in the cantina with the Sith a few years ago means absolutely nothing. It's called BACKGROUND, my friend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I think I'll just let that speak for itself...
OK.

Would you mind explaining what you are trying to convey by your response? What, was my response stupid or something? Maybe I should start saying what you were sarcastically lamenting about earlier... but no. Let's keep this mature.

So.... What exactly is it that you want to say? Again, you really didn't give a response to what I said - again.
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:00 PM   #79
Darca Lar
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Okay I decided to just skim those last few and just would suggest that before anybody goes on stating what they think is true, or assume that it could be...READ THE STORIES! If you've read them, then you wouldn't assume that the Yuuzhong Vong AREN'T at all True Sith but just another alien species. PLEASE get the FACTS before you make a judgment!


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow, a mystery. Today is a gift...that is why it is called the present.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:03 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Well.... I see what you mean. (shouldn't include Manaan in there, though) Maybe I should say it a different way. Not considering SW eras for planets, more like SW themes. Ziost and Khar whatever belong to the kind of ancient Jedi-use-swords and True Sith are alive slash Yuuzhan Vong strange alien type of SW. Tatooine and Kashyyyk don't - in fact, being in the movies, they make it more similar to KOTOR, as they belong to the kind of story that KOTOR is in - the more "canonical" SW stories.
Canon is a pretty black-and-white thing in Star Wars. Sure, lots of people dismiss EU stuff, but Lucasarts doesn't. That's why you can see Sadow's invasion of the republic during the Great Hyperspace War depicted in Palpatine's office in "Revenge of the Sith" - it's all accepted history.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Ahem, I beg to differ. KOTOR comes from/after the Tales of the Jedi, it is two different time periods. They aren't the same. Yes, those names are heard in the game - Ulic, Nomi, etc. - but they are not in the game. Period . I will agree, Tales of the Jedi did lead into KOTOR, but they are seperate.
Only due to technical reasons. Originally Bastila was meant to be Vima Sunrider, but Lucasarts elected not to allow that due to a legal controversy over the Sunrider name. Nomi Sunrider's full name is mentioned only due to "mistake" according to Lucasarts.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sunri...ng_controversy

And no, you can't separate them, since the Tales of the Jedi stories impact the KotOR games so heavily - it is precisely because Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were lured to the dark side that the masters on the jedi council refused to take action against the Mandalorians. So without that in recent history, it is highly doubtful that Revan would have been in a position to split the order on the issue, which is the very foundation of the all the trouble in the games so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Now, just to be fair, even if they were, the True Sith stuff comes even before that - more specifically, let me give you some dates:

7000 B.B.Y. - the time of the First Schizm, or the Hundred Year Darkness. This is when the first dark Jedi came to power and found the True Sith; also where they were held as gods among the Sith and built an army out of them. After this time, they were driven back into the Unknown Regions and pretty much forgot about the Republic, until....
Since we're apparently splitting hairs, it's actually 6900 BBY, since that's when the dark jedi lost the Battle of Corbos

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred_Year_Darkness

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
5000 B.B.Y. - the Golden Age of the Sith, at the height of their power. As I said, they had all but forgotten about the Republic, until those two fateful discoverers stumbled across their Empire. This new contact with the Republic sparked this: The Great Hyperspace War. The Sith were eventually beaten, the True Sith all but destroyed, and the Sith Lords - Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos - they got into their little tombs.
Actually, that is not quite correct. If you reexamine the "Golden Age of the Sith" comic books, you'll see, that Sadow is actually promoting an attack on the Republic before the Gav and Jori Daragon even arrive on Korriban. That is the source of the dispute between Sadow and Kressh, and it's established even as the Starbreaker 12 enters orbit above Korriban.

Sadow: "The Sith Empire is stagnant! For centuries we have done nothing but wallow in our riches and relive our ancient conquest of these worlds. This is no longer enough. Our ancestors - my ancestors - were great jedi, banished for their beliefs. I will not let that flame be extinguished by our complacency!"

Quite clearly, they had not forgotten. And note, this is about 1900 years after the dark jedi were exiled and founded a great empire of their own. KotOR is only a little over a thousand years after the Republic destroyed the Sith Empire (or rather, before it destroyed itself, though I doubt the descendants see it that way...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Now, 4400 B.B.Y. - this is when Exar Kun began to use the True Sith again; except now, they were the "Massassi", living on Yavin IV, shrunk greatly from their former power. He started another war with his little minions, and eventually lost. The Massassi were killed, and eventually almost all of the True Sith or their descendants fled or died out. They lost everything, so to speak, and never again got any kind of power - that's why they never returned, and why Korriban and Yavin IV are just ruin-filled shadows of what they once were.
Oh dear...

1. While I agree the true Sith are the descendents of the Sith Empire, I doubt we should use the term in that context, since even though Kreia suggests it, there is enough doubt about just who the true Sith are to warrant caution with the term.

2. While your description of events above is correct on the broad scale, your timetable is way, way off. Exar Kun did not embrace the Sith ways until 4000 BBY.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Exar_Kun
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/4%2C000_BBY
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Sith_War

The year 4400 is when Freedon Nadd fell to the dark side and subsequently made himself king of Onderon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/4%2C400_BBY
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Freedon_Nadd

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Now, fast-forward to KOTOR, which is - let me see - about 50-100 years ahead of the war with Exar Kun. In fact, it specifically tells you that the True Sith died out. I'm not talking about their long-lost relatives or anything, but all this (which is from your pre-Tales of the Jedi era) are gone.
Actually, KotOR is set in 3956 BBY, exactly 44 years after the beginning of the Great Sith War (4000 BBY), while TSL is set in 3951 BBY, exactly 49 years after the Great Sith War and five years after KotOR.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Now this is where it gets confusing, because none of us no what Kreia had in mind. What does True Sith mean? The fact is, a lot of people immediately jump to the assumption that she is talking about wierd Vong-like Sith species, but she never actually says or implies that she is.
No. She does mention the Sith Empire in relation to the true Sith, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Yeah, I know at one point she does say ancient Sith empire, but Korriban and Malachor are part of the ancient Sith empire as well - but it is ancient, and there are no Ancient Sith left.
We don't know that either. The Sith species is gone, yes, but they were long gone even in the time of Sadow and Kressh.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_species

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
The people who populate them are the dark Jedi who came after them. There's no reason why she can't be talking about the powerful dark Jedi/Sith Lords who have bided their time and are living in the Ancient Sith Empire, without them actually being the Ancient Sith species. Couldn't you agree with that?
There is no ancient sith species and hasn't been one since days well before the Great Hyperspace War, unless you count the Massassi, who really are the result of Sith alchemy.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massassi

All the members of the Sith Empire we see in the Great Hyperspace War are halfbreeds between the original Sith species and the human dark jedi who enslaved them. Some look more like the sith species, like Kressh, and some look more human, like Sadow, but they are all halfbreeds of some sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Er... where did it become important later?
It points to Kreia's past, which does become fairly important during the course of TSL IMHO. It also points to her knowledge of what became of Revan, which leads us to the revelation of the true Sith at the end of the game. I tend to think that is also rather significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
So.... What exactly is it that you want to say? Again, you really didn't give a response to what I said - again.
Maybe not, but then nor do I have to. And the way you phrase it, I do feel as if I'm left only with the options of either answering your questions and thereby confirming that I'm answerable to you or else to refuse answering on the basis that I don't answer to anyone. In those cases I always choose the latter option.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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