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Old 03-11-2007, 10:10 AM   #1
MeleeMaster
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Why the Jedi died in Order 66

Many people seem to think that there were like 10,000 Jedi that all got their butts kicked, but no, that's not how it happened.

In the beginning of Episode 3 Mace Windu clearly states that there are UNDER 200 Jedi Knights (or maybe it was 200, not sure) left and about how they're keepers of teh peace, not soldiers.

Now just imagine it, less than 200 average Jedi going up against like 10,000 elite well trained copies of Jango Fett.

Does it make sense now? The Jedi didn't totally suck, they were probably way outnumbered.


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Old 03-11-2007, 01:13 PM   #2
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I wouldn't say they were all average Jedi. If they survived the slaughter on Geonosis then they're probably pretty powerful.

But I still see your point, there weren't many left and they were vastly outnumbered.


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Old 03-11-2007, 03:38 PM   #3
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Well, I think the 200 or so Jedis only concerns those of active duty, and not those retired, quitted or drifted around outside of council control.

Furthermore, Even the padawans may not be included in that stat.

From what I remember, on Jabiim alone a bunch of jedis died, though most of them padawan. Granted, it is the guttersberg of clone wars, it would still be unimaginable if almost 10% jedis got killed in that.
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:42 PM   #4
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It's really a pity that the Jedi were so few in number. How exactly did they get that way in the first place? Didn't there used to be several thousand Jedi?
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:32 AM   #5
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I remember hearing taht all Jedi who practiced the saber form of Niman died at Geonosis, and oh boy did a lot of Jedi practice it.


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Old 03-13-2007, 09:42 AM   #6
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When in Ep. III does Mace say that there are under 200 Jedi? I was under the impression that there were still thousands.



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Old 03-13-2007, 10:10 AM   #7
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Mace says that in episode 2, when they go rescue Obi-Wan.
There are thousands of Jedi in the galagy, but during the Clone Wars many die, and in RoTS many die by order 66, but many more are lucky enought to escape or skilled enough to kill the clones and survive, or were in not involved in the war.
For more info about the Jedi that did survived read:

STAR WARS: CLONE WARS VOLUME 9: ENDGAME (comics)
STAR WARS: DARK LORD: RISE OF DARTH VADER (book)
STAR WARS: DARK TIMES: THE PATH TO NOWHERE (Comics)


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Old 03-13-2007, 11:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleeMaster
Many people seem to think that there were like 10,000 Jedi that all got their butts kicked, but no, that's not how it happened.
Around the time of TPM there were about 10,000 Jedi active in the galaxy. This is clearly stated in the novelization. Presumably the number was close to this at the start of the Clone Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleeMaster
In the beginning of Episode 3 Mace Windu clearly states that there are UNDER 200 Jedi Knights (or maybe it was 200, not sure) left and about how they're keepers of teh peace, not soldiers.
The statement is:

"It is done then. I will take what Jedi we have left and go to Geonosis and help Obi-Wan."

What Mace is refering to is 200 Jedi Knights that are not out on missions or otherwise unavailable. This is made more clear from the novel and other sources. There are certainly more than 200 Jedi left in the Order. There were 200 Jedi at the Battle of Geonosis, of which only 20 at most survived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleeMaster
Now just imagine it, less than 200 average Jedi going up against like 10,000 elite well trained copies of Jango Fett.
During the Clone Wars many of the original 10,000 or so died in the various battles, but I haven't seen a number for how many were left by ROTS. Maybe 5000-6000?

In any event, we see from ROTS that most Jedi killed by Order 66 were taken out by squads of 12 clones or less, which are clearly more than a match for even the best Jedi (Council Members). Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, Plo Koon, and Stass Allie are all killed by a handful of clones. Coleman Trebor was killed by a couple shots from Jango. Kenobi is almost killed by a single artillary shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleeMaster
Does it make sense now? The Jedi didn't totally suck, they were probably way outnumbered.
They didn't suck, but they weren't gods either. We clearly see that a squad of clone troopers is more than enough to defeat them.

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Old 03-13-2007, 04:53 PM   #9
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Well, I will have to stay that their Trust to their clone commanders may be their downfall, as least for some of them. The same trust is also what saves some of the Jedis. Then again, if you have no clone followers you are way less likely to get cheesed, like... being an ninja.

But yeah, on a head on fight the jedi would most probably win.

As for the numbers, Yes I think it is right, the 200 jedis(from master to padawans) are what is available for the mission at the time... it takes too long for some of them to ruturn from the other side of the galaxy after they finish their mission.

Also remember that some never work for the clone war era council... like Zao the happy traveling chef, mentor of Yoda's cooking (most probably)

Some surviving Jedis were hunted and killed after order 66, and vader did some fine jobs. A few padawans(mostly,, and some rejects too) converted to work for the Inqusition. Some becomes a clockworkwork robot tyrant in unknown backwater world(so-called)
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:13 PM   #10
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No matter how good you are with a sword, 12 clones on 1 Jedi is still horrible odds. It was a matter of time before 1 of the hundreds of blaster bolts being shot off would make it through the Jedi's defenses.

What surprised me in RotS was how few troopers they had going after Yoda, who everyone knew had tremendous Force skill.


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Old 03-15-2007, 12:35 AM   #11
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Ya, it would seem that for a jedi master, you would want more than just 2 troopers, although maybe they wanted to suprise him and bringing in a full squad would attract attention.



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Old 03-15-2007, 10:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
No matter how good you are with a sword, 12 clones on 1 Jedi is still horrible odds. It was a matter of time before 1 of the hundreds of blaster bolts being shot off would make it through the Jedi's defenses.

What surprised me in RotS was how few troopers they had going after Yoda, who everyone knew had tremendous Force skill.

I was surprised by that too, Yoda was one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, but in the comics, dozens of troops are shown going after Yoda, and are defeated by the wookies.


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Old 03-15-2007, 07:58 PM   #13
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It would have made more sense to kill him first since hes one of the most powerful jedi and he had the wookies as allies.



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Old 03-16-2007, 03:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
No matter how good you are with a sword, 12 clones on 1 Jedi is still horrible odds. It was a matter of time before 1 of the hundreds of blaster bolts being shot off would make it through the Jedi's defenses.

What surprised me in RotS was how few troopers they had going after Yoda, who everyone knew had tremendous Force skill.
Hey, jedi aren't supposed to be "good with a sword", they are supposed to posess somewhat supernatural abilities. In the beginning of ROTS, we see Anakin and Obi-Wan taking out a hangar full of battle droids without much of a problem...
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:01 PM   #15
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I'm gonna say this:

the jedi don't suck, they were outnumbered and taken by suprise. If you were taken by suprise by a sqaud of about 12 clones, even if you were a jedi, would you survive???
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurrassco
I'm gonna say this:

the jedi don't suck, they were outnumbered and taken by suprise. If you were taken by suprise by a sqaud of about 12 clones, even if you were a jedi, would you survive???
Well, I've only had a lifetime of training in the Jedi arts, and precognitive senses that are way better than the "Spidey-Sense".

So, yes.

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Old 03-17-2007, 09:51 AM   #17
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Well, you are also tired from on-going campaigns being in the frontline, and also as a leader. You are also putting all your trust(or most) on there would-be your murderer.

Did I mention that those guys are also tried for combat for their entire(short) lifetime, even before they were born? Oh, and they shall know no fear, which means they will keep shooting at you unless you take every one of them out.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:38 AM   #18
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Well, now that I think about it, part of it definately was that the Jedi were taken by surprise.

In the movie one Jedi barely had a chance to even activate his saber before he was instantly gunned down.


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Old 03-19-2007, 07:03 PM   #19
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still leaves me to wonder that if the jedi weren't so focused on training a single form than letting each jedi develop there own individual style then maybe they would have stood more of a chance against the stormies/wannabe jangos like that 8 year old kid who whipped the floor with about 8 stormies before being taken down
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:16 AM   #20
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Because the Forms were proven to work and were indeed built up over time through trial and error.

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Old 03-20-2007, 05:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Well, I will have to stay that their Trust to their clone commanders may be their downfall, as least for some of them.
My thoughts exactly. The Jedi had no clue whatsoever (besides Mace and Yoda saying there were disturbances in the Force and that the Sith were planning something diabolical) that the Republic would betray them. Once Anakin killed Mace and Palpatine was forced to enact the order, the Jedi were caught very much off guard and most of them died before they had a good chance to react.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:44 PM   #22
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And sometimes Jedis are in situations where they jedi reflex have less of an impact. I mean a jedi piloting a vehicle can perform as good as the max performance of said vehicle, and not too much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleOfHarpenden
still leaves me to wonder that if the jedi weren't so focused on training a single form than letting each jedi develop there own individual style then maybe they would have stood more of a chance against the stormies/wannabe jangos like that 8 year old kid who whipped the floor with about 8 stormies before being taken down
Well, many jedis are trained with moare than one form of combat, at least that is true for the more "action oriented" ones. It is also not forbidden to develop/refine forms, and many jedis have their own variations, and some combine the moves and rythem of different forms they know as needed. Think Vapaad and Vos, though that may not be the best example.

It is just that unless a jedi spends extensive periods of time training on his saber skills, he would be more preferable to just familiarize with one of the styles.
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Old 03-24-2007, 03:45 PM   #23
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Here's two things I found on Wookiee Pedia:

[edit] The Great Jedi Purge
"The clone troopers, now proudly wearing the name of Imperial stormtroopers, have tackled the dangerous work of fighting our enemies on the front lines. Many have died in their devotion to the Empire. Imperial citizens would do well to remember their example."
―Emperor Palpatine during the Declaration of a New Order

Fox and the 501st Legion during Operation: Knightfall.Though the clone troopers had grown to respect and even like the Jedi they served under in protecting the Galaxy in the name of peace and justice, they had been indoctrinated with absolute loyalty to the Galactic Republic, no matter what the case. Through the ever-increasing emergency powers of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the Chancellor had virtually become the Republic itself, thus all of the clones became ultimately answerable to his authority.

When Order 66 was finally initiated during the end of the Clone Wars, the clones displayed their unwavering loyalty to the Republic by quickly executing their Jedi leaders with cold-blooded efficiency. Every clone had their own reaction to the order. Some thought of it as just another executive order to carry out, but many more were genuinely shocked and even uncertain as to why they had been ordered to turn on the Jedi, but, nonetheless, virtually all of the clones followed the order and turned on their Jedi officers.

Throughout the Galaxy, the clones swiftly executed the Jedi, all of whom had grown to trust the clones with their lives; it was a fatal mistake for the entire Jedi Order. The very troops that they led to win the war after countless numbers of battles had betrayed them in cold blood without so much as a second thought. To the clones, Order 66 labeled every Jedi as a traitor to the Republic that had to be eliminated immediately. From the clones' perspective, they were merely carrying out a legal order; they felt no animosity or hatred against the Jedi as they levelled their weapons against their former commanders. This was the sole reason as to why the Jedi could not sense the clones' betrayal until it was too late. However, some commandos, such as Ion Team, who had been gifted with more individuality and morals than the average clone, refused to carry out the order, believing it to be illegitimate.

Only after so many Jedi had died were some able to detect the treachery, such as in the case of Jedi Master Yoda. Some Jedi, like Roan Shryne and his friends, managed to escape through luck. Yet, it was too late. By the time Kenobi and Yoda returned to Coruscant, the once mighty Jedi Order had been nearly eradicated to the last Master, Knight, and Padawan.

With the decimation of the Jedi Order and the raid on its temple, the loyal clone troopers of the Republic quickly became known as Imperial stormtroopers. The clones of Jango Fett that originally comprised the Grand Army were reorganized into the Stormtrooper Corps. The military would, for the most part, continue to remain as the exclusive province of the Jango Fett clones for another decade.


I also read somewhere else on there that the clone troopers didn't actually execute order 66 because of genetic programming, they did out of pure loyalty to the "Republic/Empire".


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Old 03-25-2007, 10:18 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Prime
Because the Forms were proven to work and were indeed built up over time through trial and error.
Hmmm...but for some reason, Luke decided to use other forms in the New Jedi Order (normal, fast, strong if im not wrong)


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Old 03-26-2007, 07:59 AM   #25
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Well, I always think that saber skills in the NJO era is not nearly as good as those in the olden days. After all Luke is trained by ObiWan only(mainly). Granted ObiWan is quite good at the saber, still many forms are not well versed by him. Also, we know that the old old days both Jedi and Sith have way better saber skills.

I guess it is reasonable for Luke to summarize the sbaer forms into a few combined forms rather than teaching the few incomplete forms that he knows.

On the other hand in combining what is left of the old forms new ones are created. So change might not be bad afterall. Obviously the NJO is yet to invent fast and powerful forms like vapaad, but well it takes eons to create/elevate/evolve a form. Speaking of which, where on earth did the NJO guys learn about the use of saberstaff anyways?
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Old 03-26-2007, 02:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Badguy
Hmmm...but for some reason, Luke decided to use other forms in the New Jedi Order (normal, fast, strong if im not wrong)
Those are game mechanics from the JO games and as far as I know there are no mention of them in canon (dispite what wookieepedia would have you believe, argh!). Luke is canonically stated to be a Form V practitioner, but probably had learned aspects of the some of the other forms from Kenobi and Yoda.

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Old 03-26-2007, 04:52 PM   #27
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And on the Battle of Galidraan against the Mandalorians at least 500 were there getting rid of the Mandalorians. Over Half died though that was 12 years before Geonosis. But still it would be hard to bring up the Jedi after over 250 deaths.

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Old 03-27-2007, 01:03 PM   #28
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They didn't suck, but they weren't gods either.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Clash_of_Gods.jpg
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Old 03-27-2007, 03:21 PM   #29
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Touche!

But then, would a god die from being chucked down a shaft?

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Old 03-28-2007, 02:13 AM   #30
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Depends on What God and What Shaft? Numerous mythology tells us that gods can be killed. And Jedis are at best demi-gods at best, if not avatars.
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