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Old 04-10-2007, 11:51 AM   #1
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Idea that maxstate and I had

We're just discussing on MSN bout this idea that we have

Basically, holding the secondary mouse button for all weapons except explosives and the disruptor will cause a zoom-in effect that's similar to cg_fov 50. There are many benefits to this. Firstly, it increases aiming accuracy and reduces spread of bullets on weapons like the E11 and clonerifle. Secondly, using this prevents your weapon from being force pulled out, although you still can be pulled on to the ground. However, while in a jet pack, you are invulnerable to force pull (force push still can hurl you away). Thirdly, you lose less DP when you're hit

However, the downside to using Aim mode is that you can only walk. On a jet pack, it is very inconvenient to maneuver about as your movement would be very slow. It's like a temporary invulnerability thingy, but comes at a high cost. However, without Aim mode, you're practically dead when you face off with an enemy. This makes the game more tactical - you cannot rush into combat like before, but at the same time it doesn't completely isolate Q3ish gamers

On the issue of hybrids that Max and I also discussed, we felt that the best way to limit hybrids is to prevent the use of force powers when the player uses heavy guns. This includes everything except melee and pistols. Basically, yup hybrids still get the best of both worlds, but it also means that they cannot use both sides' strenghts at the same time. It's either one or the other.

Also, I'll be glad to supply weapon models since I've just installed Lightwave. Just need time to pick up the skill again, as it's been quite some time since I last modeled. With new weapon models, we can actually give different weapons individual stats that make them unique from one another. For example, both the E11 and clonetrooper rifles are...rifles, but the E11 fires slower yet more accurately. The clonetrooper is a man eater, but it's inaccurate at long range. Stuff like that ya know

On the sidenote, I propose that the secondary fire mode be scrapped completely, and replace it with aim mode. Firstly, little work has been done by razor in tweaking weapons' sec fire mode (I think), thus not much work gone down the drain. Secondly, for the most part, the secondary fire mode is useless. Except for the bowcaster, which I think should have the pri fire replaced with the sec fire, all other weapons have a useless sec fire mode. Cmon, admit it, the pistol's sec fire is a joke. The clonerifle's sec fire is more powerful than a rocket launcher. And what's up with steel balls coming out from the flechette?

Last edited by UDM; 04-10-2007 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:02 PM   #2
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I think this is the solution to our Quake 3 problem, personally.

Yes.

YES REALLY1111!!!1

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Old 04-10-2007, 12:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDM
The clone rifle's sec fire is more powerful than a rocket launcher.
but i think its still essential to the merc it allows them to knock down the Jedi and the finish them off with bullets in the sake of balancing it i say we should give it a descent sized cool down time and make it so that it just massively drains the ammo making them think when and where they fire it, I agree its over powered now but i feel its essential to them

also when are we going to make the disrupter un-dodge a bull

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Old 04-10-2007, 01:31 PM   #4
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Yes, this is what makes the more recent FPS's great. The iron sights mode. This should definitely be implemented in the game. You should also add that your accuracy with iron sights increases when crouching, this will bring the crouching and peaking around corners to OJP, which will make being a gunner better than before.

While hanging in the air with a jetpack, you should still be able to use the aiming mode, but while doing that, you should be unable to move around, just float there.

The idea for the hybrids sounds good too. However, I still think they should only be able to get level 1 for each power they pick. Perhaps they should also be prohibited from taking the specific light/dark side powers, since only real jedi/sith had them in the movies anyways.
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcatmach2
but i think its still essential to the merc it allows them to knock down the Jedi and the finish them off with bullets in the sake of balancing it i say we should give it a descent sized cool down time and make it so that it just massively drains the ammo making them think when and where they fire it, I agree its over powered now but i feel its essential to them

also when are we going to make the disrupter un-dodge a bull
The problem with that is that it becomes a routine for gunners then. It should require skill to kill a Jedi, and not just bomb > shoot > Jedi dies > repeat > wash up. It's difficult to tweak the cooldown time to perfection too. Make it cooldown too slow and the blob is still useless anyway. Make it too fast and you essentially nerfed Jedi

Like bjuster said, that's what makes other FPSes great, and I'm sure it'll make OJP great too

However, I disagree with letting hybrids pick level 1 powers only. They should be given the freedom to choose up to level 3
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:07 PM   #6
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Sure, but they can only use them in melee mode or with a saber out. I think that seems very fair. Passive powers like Absorb and Jump should be allowed though.

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Old 04-10-2007, 05:02 PM   #7
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We could make it so that pistols can use offensive/defensive Force powers, "light" weapons (bowcaster/e11) can use defensive powers, and then have "heavy" weapons have no powers at all.


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Old 04-10-2007, 06:21 PM   #8
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Ewww, a dedicated aiming mode that's basically required for... anything? No thanks. My ability to aim a scope is terrible, this would murder in cold blood any entertainment this mod had for me. Yeesh, I know everybody here I've played against I can rip apart, but come now. And I use both primaries and secondaries on my weaponry, thank you.

I don't particularly care about the active forces such as push/pull being iced when carrying heavy weapons since I practically never use them...


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Old 04-10-2007, 06:29 PM   #9
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I'm liking all these ideas. The aim thing is great. I kind of like Razors take on the lighter weapons unless anybody can think of balance issues.

Although, I do think the flame thrower should count as a heavy weapon when it is being used since it is an item with HUGE damage potential for jedi.


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Old 04-10-2007, 06:30 PM   #10
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...Except it's not a heavy weapon, it's a wrist-mounted flamethrower. Don't go making totally arbitrary placements into categories or they lose their meaning, and worse yet stink of whine.


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Old 04-10-2007, 07:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
...Except it's not a heavy weapon, it's a wrist-mounted flamethrower. Don't go making totally arbitrary placements into categories or they lose their meaning, and worse yet stink of whine.
Um..stink of whine? LOL The problem is, certain Hybrid class combos are so overpowered I can ice pretty much anybody with them and I suck with guns. Well, if not heavy weapon at least a light one, but it "acts" like a heavy weapon none the less. Having a ball of flame in front you would make it pretty hard to use offensive force powers anyways.

However, while these are good ideas, I do still see the problem of meleers using forcepowers in combinations with flamethrower. All they need is jump 3 or jetpack, absorb 3, and any offensive force power and they will be nearly impossible for jedis to kill since offensive force powers can stop saber swings (Of course if we make that overridable it will be more balanced, just annoying).

Also, about jetpack, since its a pretty easy escape for anybody with absorb 3, how about making different levels for it? Level 1: either fuel goes down Extremely fast, or you can only use it in short bursts (more as a jumping assitant for gunners). Level 2: slower fuel drain or longer bursts. Level 3, the way it is now.


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Old 04-10-2007, 07:49 PM   #12
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Less realism and gunner fanboyism, more balance.

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Old 04-10-2007, 09:16 PM   #13
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Well, I don't think we're going to be able to disable Force Powers whenever a player HAS a flamethrower.

However, I can totally understand them not being able to use the Force while actively using the flamer. In addition, they wouldn't be allowed to use the flamer while knocked over. That alone should make it balanced since the Jedi can just push/pull/zap/etc the flamer when they attempt it.

Quote:
Ewww, a dedicated aiming mode that's basically required for... anything? No thanks. My ability to aim a scope is terrible, this would murder in cold blood any entertainment this mod had for me. Yeesh, I know everybody here I've played against I can rip apart, but come now. And I use both primaries and secondaries on my weaponry, thank you.
I think the idea is of a un-scoped slight zoom-in vs an actual scoped view. The idea being that this zoom-in is due to the gunner focusing on his shot.


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Old 04-11-2007, 01:49 AM   #14
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I was playing co-op yesterday as a pure gunner. All I can say is, playing carefully and tactfully rather than rushing in head on was certainly more fun

As it is right now, there has to be a solution on the impact of stunning force powers such as pull and lightning on gunners. Me thinks the best way is to have an "invulnerability" function (aim mode) that actually stops gunners from completely being eviscerated by pull and lightning. However, this is not an exploitable function. Gunners can only walk, and as such they're still left mostly vulnerable. They can't hold down the Aim mode button all the time, or they'll still get wiped out easily.

What about Force Absorb then? Yeah Force Absorb still works as per normal - it is able to protect the gunners when they are not in Aim mode, up to a certain extent

IMHO the benefits of Aim mode is a double edged sword - it offers a fairly balanced trade off for the secondary fire function. On one hand, now weapons fire more accurately, and you get to hold on to your weapons in the presence of Force Pull. Yet at the same time, you must learn to attack your enemy cautiously

Like razorace said, it's not really aiming with iron sights, it's merely dropping FOV down a few notches to create a zoom in effect. You just see less around you, but it still works the same as before
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:36 PM   #15
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Fine, but don't penalize the people such as the hybrids who know what they're doing by basoically forcing them to use your attack mode. I love my secondaries.


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Old 04-11-2007, 04:06 PM   #16
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Well in SP+CoOp the NPCs rape gunners pretty much because of their push.


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Old 04-11-2007, 05:40 PM   #17
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Gunners can still get Absorb which should maybe become a universal skill. Otherwise, we can make a gunner variation of it by using the aforementioned ysalimiri idea. Much like shadowtroopers had those crystals embedded into their armor to tone down lightsaber damage, the ysalimiri skill could (theoretically, and just for ****s) layer your armor with ground ysalimiri acman:

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Old 04-11-2007, 06:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDM
As it is right now, there has to be a solution on the impact of stunning force powers such as pull and lightning on gunners. Me thinks the best way is to have an "invulnerability" function (aim mode) that actually stops gunners from completely being eviscerated by pull and lightning. However, this is not an exploitable function. Gunners can only walk, and as such they're still left mostly vulnerable. They can't hold down the Aim mode button all the time, or they'll still get wiped out easily.
I can understand this preventing weapon pull, but I don't think this should apply to lightning. Right now, I think I might be able to retool lightning a bit to make it only knock a player down if they've been hit by lightning for a few seconds. I hope that will fix most of the problems with lightning spamming.
Quote:
Gunners can still get Absorb which should maybe become a universal skill. Otherwise, we can make a gunner variation of it by using the aforementioned ysalimiri idea
Could someone please bug ticket the ysalimiri idea?


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Old 04-11-2007, 09:26 PM   #19
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How would the ysalimiri idea work again? Is it just based on armor or what? As long as jedi can still get through it with out too many problems, I'm for it. If not, we could be facing more balance issues just like with absorb.

In case there's not an official idea on how this works balance wise here's a few of my own:

1. Maybe have it work like cloak were it has a meter and has to recharge or something?

2. Or maybe it goes down with your armor as you take any hit even as you dodge (like you got grazed because you move slower in armor)?


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Old 04-11-2007, 10:10 PM   #20
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I think it would just be like the ysalimiri are in the books, no force powers in or out. So, basically this should just limit the fighter to gunner powers.


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Old 04-11-2007, 10:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
I think it would just be like the ysalimiri are in the books, no force powers in or out. So, basically this should just limit the fighter to gunner powers.
Well, my issue with this is "when are force powers EVER going to be used?!" Everybody and their moms are just going to get absorb or ysalimiri as soon as they possibly can. If jedi can't use forcepowers against anybody, whats the point of even getting them aside from speed and lightning (which will probably be changed eventually since its too powerful)?

No, there needs to be a time and a place aside from when players just first start when this ysalimiri cannot be used. Heck even absorb should technically have limits for the same reasons. Otherwise, we're going to have alot of pure jedi fanatically swinging and speeding around because they can't do anything else.


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Old 04-11-2007, 11:00 PM   #22
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Eh? Are you forgetting that game I had with Tanqexe? It was impossible for me (pure gunner) to kill him. All he had to do was force pull, lightning, then I was dead
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDM
Eh? Are you forgetting that game I had with Tanqexe? It was impossible for me (pure gunner) to kill him. All he had to do was force pull, lightning, then I was dead
Yeah, but that was back before we added the gunner improvements and even still, does that mean jedi can just NEVER use force powers against gunners? Thats what will happen if we add ysalimiri this way. Even if we make that 8 points, it will be the first thing they spend points on. There MUST be some vulnerabilities or playing as jedi will be boring as heck.


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Old 04-11-2007, 11:22 PM   #24
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I think the Y could be the most expensive item in the game. In addition, we could probably make the Y have level different levels of protection vs Force Powers. IE, Level 1 Y would block level 1 powers, etc.


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Old 04-11-2007, 11:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
I think the Y could be the most expensive item in the game. In addition, we could probably make the Y have level different levels of protection vs Force Powers. IE, Level 1 Y would block level 1 powers, etc.
I suppose, but your going to have to ask UDM or someone to make higher point force bubbles if we're talking most expensive. Also, I think there should be a way of losing it in a particular life so that High level Jedis versus high level gunners can still have a way to use force powers once in a while. Maybe have it break or get dropped or something if the gunners lose all their dodge?


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Old 04-12-2007, 12:53 AM   #26
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How about landing an attack fake on the Y carrier destroys the Y?


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Old 04-12-2007, 01:11 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
How about landing an attack fake on the Y carrier destroys the Y?
Hmm, that might be a good idea. Or maybe it just knocks it away from them and can be picked up again unless its destroyed with a swing or shot or something? Unless thats too hard to code.


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Old 04-12-2007, 03:17 AM   #28
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Well if I'm not mistaken people are vulnerable to force while on high mishap right? If gunners just wildly shoot their gun (I'm looking at you clone rifle) and let their mishap go up high they should have one level lower force protection than normally maybe?

This is countered by mishap going up half as fast in aiming mode, and if we make manual deflecting a bit more taxing for the jedi it should be a hell of a lot more fun to play Jedi too.

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Old 04-12-2007, 04:17 AM   #29
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I can do the point bubbles don't worry
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Old 04-12-2007, 06:33 AM   #30
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Don't worry about the point bubbles, that's an easy photoshop fix

UDM, I have done some already, contact meesa on EMMESSEENN

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Old 04-12-2007, 05:43 PM   #31
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I think a better idea would be to just have the empty bubbles and have the menu code paint the number on.


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Old 04-12-2007, 05:45 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
I think a better idea would be to just have the empty bubbles and have the menu code paint the number on.
It'll be really hard to correctly display two numbers without some major cropping

Any luck on that force speed code? :P

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Old 04-12-2007, 08:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Well if I'm not mistaken people are vulnerable to force while on high mishap right? If gunners just wildly shoot their gun (I'm looking at you clone rifle) and let their mishap go up high they should have one level lower force protection than normally maybe?

This is countered by mishap going up half as fast in aiming mode, and if we make manual deflecting a bit more taxing for the jedi it should be a hell of a lot more fun to play Jedi too.
thats not a bad idea either, although it might be frustrating to loose your ysalimiri that way accidently alot. I feel like I'm mentioned it before though to someone and I can't rememeber the outcome or why we didnt discuss it further ... or maybe I just tried it in my code and couldn't get it to work right I think thats it. Since the mishap raise is already in the code, I might be able to do it now.


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Old 04-13-2007, 03:55 AM   #34
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The ysalamiri itself shouldn't be an object, but you should be able to regulate the amount of "ysalamiri weave" in your armor or whatever.

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Old 04-13-2007, 01:48 PM   #35
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Y only work when they are alive. That's been established in EU material.


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Old 04-18-2007, 07:22 AM   #36
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But we're going for balance and movie realism as stated in another thread. I don't see how it would for gunners, carrying a life ysalamiri with them. I mean it won't just bravely stay in their backpack like that.

I prefer the idea of denying force powers with certain weapons that we discussed before.

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Old 04-18-2007, 07:26 AM   #37
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Has the idea I talked about been bug ticketed yet? If not I'll do it
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Old 04-18-2007, 03:45 PM   #38
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Max, the issue of Y's being carried around was covered in the Thrawn trilogy. They had special carrying cases designed especially for the Y. Maybe we could have a setup where the player could either have a Y or a jetpack, but not both.


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Old 04-18-2007, 05:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
Max, the issue of Y's being carried around was covered in the Thrawn trilogy. They had special carrying cases designed especially for the Y. Maybe we could have a setup where the player could either have a Y or a jetpack, but not both.
Cool, I guess I'll have to read up again

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Old 04-18-2007, 07:19 PM   #40
razorace
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Does anyone have a picture of what a Y's cage looks like? I know I've seen them before in the Thrawn trilogy comic book adaptation.


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