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Old 08-10-2006, 03:43 PM   #1
Vaelastraz
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Alternative enemy for Kotor III!

I know that Kreia hinted "You must go, the True Sith are waiting!" but Kreia is not an allknowing being. She may be wrong. Her force prediction powers can be flawed, the future can't be told after all...

Then her views on why Revan disappeared are wrong too!

Anyway, what (I admit it is unlikely that Kotor III will NOT feature the True Sith) could be an alternative enemy in Kotor III?

Could it be a cunning crimelord/politician who plans to rule the Republic? Not knowing that he/she is manipulated by a powerful force sensitive being?

Or, if Kotor III features a rebuild Jedi Order, could one of the Jedi Masters, maybe the leader of them all be a traitor, wanting the galaxy for himself/herself ?

We have so many threads discussing the True Sith, why not have one about alternative options!

What do you think?
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Old 08-10-2006, 07:56 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
I know that Kreia hinted "You must go, the True Sith are waiting!" but Kreia is not an allknowing being. She may be wrong. Her force prediction powers can be flawed, the future can't be told after all...

Then her views on why Revan disappeared are wrong too!
That all more than begs an explanation.

I wonder why Obsidian bothered to put it all in KotOR2...


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Old 08-11-2006, 06:46 PM   #3
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Well, I don't know. I don't want to fight some lame crappy alien race that is the "True Sith", I don't think that is the kind of game KotOR is. I do think we will see another cast of Sith Lords, etc., and perhaps some info on Revan/Exile and what they did in the Unknown Regions. However, it's kind of hard to tell right now.
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Old 08-11-2006, 06:59 PM   #4
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I invision ducks with lasers sellotaped to their heads. Either that or what i said before with the True sith actually being these uber peace movement people because they have seen the error of their ways which could lead to an uber big juicy plot. Im sick of seeing "The next powerful villain" it's like some big tv contest. Id rather have something imaginative. Maybe a villain that used words rather than a big pointless boss battle at the end.


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Old 08-11-2006, 07:26 PM   #5
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Maybe the bad guys in K3 are the Dreaded Lawyers (Don't kill me Darth333 *runs in fear of retribution*).

No, seriously, the True Sith were introduced into the story for a reason and the most likely reason is that they are the ultimate enemy. What and who are the True Sith exactly remains to be seen.

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Old 08-11-2006, 07:31 PM   #6
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Well they better be something never seen before.


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Old 08-11-2006, 09:12 PM   #7
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I expect they will be.

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Old 08-11-2006, 09:36 PM   #8
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Yeah, perhaps, but how many times is the phrase "True Sith" mentioned? Three or four, right, and I'm counting both games. It is only mentioned at the end of TSL, also. Traya mentions it, and the only thing we see is the Ebon Hawk cruising off toward the "Unknown Regions," supposedly.

Not much to go on, is it?

Besides, it would probably take a much different turn, if the rumors are true and K3 will pick quite a few years after (like 14, although that number was from an old rumor). So, after all those years, how can you fit the True Sith in with the Exile and Revan, and keep the storyline cohesive?

It wouldn't make sense, anyways. They're barely mentioned, and yet they were so mysteriously mentioned that it's a big deal among fans. My guess is that we won't find some Empire made of "True Sith" that have red skin, tentacles hanging off their chin, whatever... but that Revan left to revisit other places like Malachor V and Rakata Prime that he had found in the Unknown Regions.

Who wants to see the KotOR-ish version of the Yuuzhan Vong, anyways? The word "lame" comes to mind. Instead of going against some super alien race that is the real Sith, that are these grey force users that want to kill Jedi and modern Sith alike, why not have some KotOR1-ish storyline? Like where there are still the good old Sith Lords, etc...
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:50 PM   #9
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I think that those could be good mini bosses, but I think the the other two lead up to killing the "True Sith". It's possible that LF had the third one (if it is going to be) already written, and the story is predetermined.


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Old 08-11-2006, 11:55 PM   #10
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If the "True Sith" won't be the ultimate enemy in KOTOR 3 then I will be very dissapointed, to have this whole True Sith buildup in TSL turn out to be nothing.


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Old 08-12-2006, 08:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Who wants to see the KotOR-ish version of the Yuuzhan Vong, anyways?
Well, I don't know about a KoTOR version, but I for one would like to see the Yuuzhan Vong in a SW game.

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Old 08-12-2006, 08:40 AM   #12
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Sssshhh, hide those words from The Doctor or face his wrath! I for one would'nt like to see a Yuuzhan Vong or similar looking creation in the game for they are the lamest race ever invented.


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Old 08-12-2006, 09:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igyman
Maybe the bad guys in K3 are the Dreaded Lawyers (Don't kill me Darth333 *runs in fear of retribution*).
True horror indeed

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Originally Posted by igyman
No, seriously, the True Sith were introduced into the story for a reason and the most likely reason is that they are the ultimate enemy. What and who are the True Sith exactly remains to be seen.
I'm fairly certain they are the descendants of the Sith Empire that fell during the Great Hyperspace War.

The thing is, there are odd references to this in various parts of KotOR2...

For instance, when talking with Kreia about the Sith (Nihilus and Sion) and the Jedi Civil War in the middle of the game, she expands on the subject...

Kreia: "These Sith... they seek the death of all Jedi. As have all the Sith since the Jedi Order was first split.Yes... the Jedi Civil War is not the first one of its kind - thousands of years ago, the Jedi had another civil war that split the Order. It was a... terrible thing.A faction among the Jedi abandoned the teachings of the order, following their own path. They waged war on their fellow Jedi, a war that raged across the galaxy.But these fallen Jedi were cast out, defeated, and they retreated to worlds in the Outer Rim. Over time, they took on the mantle of the Lords of the Sith.But in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings. Revan tasted it... as Malak did."

Now, why does Kreia tell us this? It has no impact on the plot of KotOR2 itself, so what's the point? To me it sounds like early foreshadowing of what is to come in KotOR3 already.

And this, of course, leads directly to the big and unavoidable revelation at the end of the game...

Traya: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks."

That statement is a promise of what will be in KotOR3. If they don't want to bind their plot to that, then it shouldn't have been in KotOR2 in the first place.

I agree with TKA-001. I, too, will be very disappointed if the true Sith are not the major enemy in KotOR3, because we've not only seen the build-up to it, but also been promised!

What I don't get is why people are so dismissive about that. Star Wars is always about the struggle between good and evil (= between jedi and sith). Always.

The "true" Sith Empire is a loose end left over by the Tales of the Jedi comic books. Picking up on it and using it doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me. Indeed, it could mean KotOR3 documents the ultimate fall of what remains of the Sith Empire.

And whether villains are "lame" or not depends entirely on the writing in my humble experience.


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Old 08-13-2006, 06:58 AM   #14
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OK, Let's assume the True Sith are the force behind the mandalorian war. Alright. They are powerful enough to make a powerful elitist warrior race run away from them. Those powerful warrior race would have defeated the Republic if it wasn't for Revan.

That should have clearly shown the True Sith, that the Republic is no match for them.

Now, let's ask ourselves, why can the True Sith be so strong and what are they exactly. What will not work is, that they are ordinary human force sensitives. There would be no reason for their superior strength. An exotic alien race perhaps? Oh well. So we have another force-enhanced alien superrace, besides the Rakata who dominated the galaxy? And it just so happens that they never clashed with the Rakata?

That is what I find lame. You can always come up with "true" enemies, by simpy inventing a "superior group who just waited for the right moment to attack". Things like that happen when you lack creative ideas.
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:19 AM   #15
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Personally, rather than the enemy in kotor 3, i'm more interested in how they'll explain the drop back to level one if they use revan or the exile as main character (the memory loss thing is getting old.), or if not one of them, then who the main character will be.
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Old 08-13-2006, 09:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
OK, Let's assume the True Sith are the force behind the mandalorian war. Alright. They are powerful enough to make a powerful elitist warrior race run away from them. Those powerful warrior race would have defeated the Republic if it wasn't for Revan.

That should have clearly shown the True Sith, that the Republic is no match for them.
On the contrary. The Republic won only because their defenders (Revan and his jedi) embraced the dark side, and even then, the Republic that survived the war is so weak that it's ripe for invasion. Both Disciple and G0-T0 make numerous comments to support that fact during K2. Indeed, Goto says the republic will collapse in a month...

And I see nothing to suggest the Mandalorians ran from the true Sith. There is speculation that the true Sith staged the Mandalorian Wars, but I've seen no evidence of contact between the Mandalorians and the true Sith. Yes, Canderous mentions that the Sith came to them with an offer in K1, but he only says "Sith", meaning that it might just as well have been the last survivors of Exar Kun's followers with whom the Mandalorians were allied in the Great Sith War (Exar Kun's war).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Now, let's ask ourselves, why can the True Sith be so strong and what are they exactly. What will not work is, that they are ordinary human force sensitives. There would be no reason for their superior strength. An exotic alien race perhaps? Oh well. So we have another force-enhanced alien superrace, besides the Rakata who dominated the galaxy? And it just so happens that they never clashed with the Rakata?
There is no need for the true Sith to be "superior" (and the they tend to be crossbreeds between humans and the sith species anyway). The Republic is weak at the time of K2, and the events of the game don't exactly change that. And with the jedi order all but eradicated, there would be no defense against an army of Sith.

As for a confrontation with the Rakata, there is actually a very simple explanation for that. If you look at the timeline, the Infinite Empire was in power about 30,000 to 25,000 BBY and then fell to a plague. The Hundred Years War, which leads to the Second Great Schism where all the dark jedi are exiled from the republic, does not happen until about 7,000 BBY, however, and the Sith Empire was founded by those dark jedi cast out by the republic. Why this would be a problem at all mystifies me. After all, even the republic was unaware of the Infinity Empire simply because it was long ago that it predated the republic itself. Since the Sith Empire was founded by dark jedi cast out from the republic, it naturally follows that the Infinite Empire could never have clashed with the Sith Empire.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
That is what I find lame. You can always come up with "true" enemies, by simpy inventing a "superior group who just waited for the right moment to attack". Things like that happen when you lack creative ideas.
The writers didn't "come up" with the true Sith idea - it was already there and really begged to be explored. Arbitrarily having some uber-species appear out of thin air would be much more appropriately called lame IMHO (and even then, the quality of the writing and plot could make up for that). It is not the case for the true Sith, however, since they grew natually out of plots left over from the Tales of the Jedi comic books, which are the foundation of the KotOR games.


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Old 08-13-2006, 06:50 PM   #17
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Personally, rather than the enemy in kotor 3, i'm more interested in how they'll explain the drop back to level one if they use revan or the exile as main character (the memory loss thing is getting old.), or if not one of them, then who the main character will be.
Personally, I'd rather wait for KOTOR3 and see the reactions of people sure Revan/Exile are possible options as the new PC when they start up and play the game with a NEW character.
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:36 PM   #18
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:08 PM   #19
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Actually, the True Sith are Mr. and Mrs Basil Sith of 43, Albermarle Drive, Deralia. Kreia always twists the truth, people, and you can neither trust nor refute anything she says entirely
Well, Deralia is Revan's home planet......lol.

Maybe the true sith have become immune to the force and lightsabers, so you have to use blasters and vibroswords to kill them, and that's what makes them so uberrific. [/sarcasm] Come on guys, I fail to see what's wrong with some Sith Lord who's been plotting for years to destroy and/or rule the galaxy being an end boss. Lets forget about all the new ideas, most of them are crap, and get back to the basic fundamentals: a protaganist, an antagonist, and the struggle between good and evil. Not the struggle between the protagonist and the antagonist, but the inner struggle for the heart and soul. That's what made the OT so good. Luke was just a kid, not good, not bad, but just a kid. He became good in the end, but he came close be becoming bad. It wasn't a story about the empire and the rebels, but it was Luke's story. What I'm saying is, its not how bad the boss is, its how you beat him. Well, at least I think that's what I'm saying. lol
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:36 PM   #20
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Maybe the true sith arent the real enermy maybe there some sort of thing to disttract you from the real threat i think that ever revan or the exile will be the boss of the third game and one will be a jedi and one will be a sith (Revan will probally be a sith Exile the jedi) fighting each other and the true sith truying to warn you about it or somin like that
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:48 PM   #21
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I'm guessing that the True Sith will be the real enemy, unless if Kreia was talking insane about the past. If the True Sith aren't the enemies, then I suspect a fallen Jedi from the Mandalorian Wars as the enemy. Terrible I know, but it could be the enemy in KOTOR III.
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Old 08-17-2006, 03:06 PM   #22
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The enemy should be of sith origin. It is an interesting thought to have a jedi who is really evil but doesn't show it and has his or hers own plans. The enemy has to be ominous and mysterious. Maybe the head of the sith government of planets in the forgotten empire. It sould be a good enemy and not Reven, exile or other mere fallen weak jedi.


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Old 08-18-2006, 03:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
On the contrary. The Republic won only because their defenders (Revan and his jedi) embraced the dark side, and even then, the Republic that survived the war is so weak that it's ripe for invasion. Both Disciple and G0-T0 make numerous comments to support that fact during K2. Indeed, Goto says the republic will collapse in a month...

And I see nothing to suggest the Mandalorians ran from the true Sith. There is speculation that the true Sith staged the Mandalorian Wars, but I've seen no evidence of contact between the Mandalorians and the true Sith. Yes, Canderous mentions that the Sith came to them with an offer in K1, but he only says "Sith", meaning that it might just as well have been the last survivors of Exar Kun's followers with whom the Mandalorians were allied in the Great Sith War (Exar Kun's war).



There is no need for the true Sith to be "superior" (and the they tend to be crossbreeds between humans and the sith species anyway). The Republic is weak at the time of K2, and the events of the game don't exactly change that. And with the jedi order all but eradicated, there would be no defense against an army of Sith.

As for a confrontation with the Rakata, there is actually a very simple explanation for that. If you look at the timeline, the Infinite Empire was in power about 30,000 to 25,000 BBY and then fell to a plague. The Hundred Years War, which leads to the Second Great Schism where all the dark jedi are exiled from the republic, does not happen until about 7,000 BBY, however, and the Sith Empire was founded by those dark jedi cast out by the republic. Why this would be a problem at all mystifies me. After all, even the republic was unaware of the Infinity Empire simply because it was long ago that it predated the republic itself. Since the Sith Empire was founded by dark jedi cast out from the republic, it naturally follows that the Infinite Empire could never have clashed with the Sith Empire.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline



The writers didn't "come up" with the true Sith idea - it was already there and really begged to be explored. Arbitrarily having some uber-species appear out of thin air would be much more appropriately called lame IMHO (and even then, the quality of the writing and plot could make up for that). It is not the case for the true Sith, however, since they grew natually out of plots left over from the Tales of the Jedi comic books, which are the foundation of the KotOR games.

Uh on the contrary? I dont get that. What you said is exactly what i said.. or isn't it? (Damn my poor english)

That the republic is weak and vulnerable to attacks, since the mandalorian wars. So, if the True Sith want to conquer it, why didn't they do so immediatly after the mandalorian wars. There is no need to wait more than 10 years.

If the True Sith aren't superior, why are they considered to be a far greater treat than the mandalorians and the "normal" sith?

About the Rakata, well you're right, I'm not. I better do more research next time
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Old 08-21-2007, 05:55 PM   #24
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I believe we have to have a Sith as a main enemy but......I don't think we should have the enemy in kotor3 not mentioned as the True Sith.

I think the Enemy can be assumed as the True Sith but i would rather leave it up to the player's point of view.

I think it would be cool to have many Villians like crime bosses and political figures as well as the Sith since the Republic is rebuilding which will open a door to many other characters who want to make a name for their self as well as gain new power over the Republic.
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:24 PM   #25
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The True Sith should exist in K3, but that doesn't mean they have to be the enemy the player fights. In fact, I would like to just mess around with the player's minds, and have the True Sith be LS freaks (or the good guys at least), just to stop the hordes of Revan and Exile fanboys who were just itching for a mass killing.

Keep the Good versus Evil motif, but have the true enemy be something else.


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Old 08-21-2007, 07:41 PM   #26
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I don't mind what they stand for story-wise, and I agree with Jediphile that if there in it, they should be descendants from the Golden age of the Sith... It's just the name that gets me, its like some race from star trek or something, and it also points to all the sith we know and love as "false"....


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Old 08-21-2007, 08:01 PM   #27
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The Sith in kotor3 should be not called the True Sith, but the player might assume them to be since they are different, in what way- i can't say.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:48 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
I know that Kreia hinted "You must go, the True Sith are waiting!" but Kreia is not an allknowing being. She may be wrong. Her force prediction powers can be flawed, the future can't be told after all...

Then her views on why Revan disappeared are wrong too!

Anyway, what (I admit it is unlikely that Kotor III will NOT feature the True Sith) could be an alternative enemy in Kotor III?

Could it be a cunning crimelord/politician who plans to rule the Republic? Not knowing that he/she is manipulated by a powerful force sensitive being?

Or, if Kotor III features a rebuild Jedi Order, could one of the Jedi Masters, maybe the leader of them all be a traitor, wanting the galaxy for himself/herself ?

We have so many threads discussing the True Sith, why not have one about alternative options!

What do you think?
Isn't the whole Revan left for the True Sith thing canon? Thus either he'll find them or... there is a twist
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:59 PM   #29
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I dont see the need for a new enemy the true sith if made right will make a excelent enemy. The idea of not including the true sith as the main enemy or a major piece of the plot would be almost as bad as puting kotor 3 2000 years from the end of kotor 2.


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Old 08-22-2007, 12:09 AM   #30
Jvstice
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Rellion, DC, & Jediphile: I agree whole heartedly. Not having a sith race in K3 just doesn't logically follow. With the TOJ comics series and the KOTOR games series, there's nothing that gives any reason why we should think that the whole sith race has died off from the galactic map in the 1000 years between the initial TOJ stories and KOTOR I & 2. But then they seem to have died off by the time of the original series. Two options can explain this.

We know that the Massassi (a genetic warrior caste offshoot who eventually come to live on Yavin 4) had members of their race to have survived at least until Palpatine's reign. It seems far more likely that the parent race is simply in hiding than some galaxy wide act of genocide took place off camera that we were never allowed to see and would remain hidden even now.

Silentscope & adammqd: Of course I suppose that it's possible that the sith race, as opposed to the sith religion has been utterly wiped out, or that the Sith race has cut all ties to the Sith religion, and that now they are light siders by and large. And while it might be interesting to see the main PC from K3 to come from such a group, I still think that there'd have to be someone who is both a member of the Sith race & Sith religion at the same time who the hero has to beat in order to make the galaxy safe for LS force users. There are groups in the world today that have their ethnic and religious identity closely intertwined, so it would be an interesting twist to have someone step forward to essentially say, "My culture gave birth to this monster. I have to be the one to stand up to him or her. Nobody else will if I don't."

A sith schism would definitely bring something interesting and new not just to the game, but to the history of the star wars galaxy. Then we'd be hanging on to see whether the LS Sith race had any effects on the galaxy at large before they faded into the history books.

Vaelastraz: I find the idea of additional enemies working with or for the true sith much more credible than the idea that the Sith race will be utterly irrelevant to the 3rd game in the series. So much has been hinted at as well as blatantly said in the first two games, that I really don't think it's credible to say it's just a blind alley.

What might be cool is to have them not doing the main bit of fighting, but mucking about in the planetary politics of various planets trying to drum up force sensitive worlds to turn against the Republic. There are hints about such a possibility.

In "Darth Bane: Path of Destruction," when Dessel is studying on Korriban, it is mentioned that the Sith order of the time sends their Sith Marauders to train on Iridonia, yet 3,000 years before, in KOTOR 2, they border the outer rims, but seem definitely on the side of the republic (going by Bao Dur and Exile's conversations).

I'd think that a part of the plot to try to disrupt alliances like this so that the true sith have to stand alone against the Old Republic might make for an interesting plot. Sort of a delicate balance of power cold war scenario throughout most of the game.
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Old 08-25-2007, 09:12 PM   #31
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I have seen the jedi vs sith stuff. I'm not so thouroughly convinced this or the kotor series gives validation to palpatine's statement of a "republic that has stood for over a thousand years"--if it had not broken and had actually been around all 25 millenia, palpatine would/should have said that. Seeing as how K1 and a good bit of this other stuff was made after AOTC, I think it was a mistake on the part of EU--we can say it's george lucas' bad for not reading EU--but he CREATED this whole phenomenon. I say this continuity error should be fixed at least , rather than shifting blame. Sure some of it was created before. If it contradicts the movies, it should not be canon regardless. I want the K series to be canon.
Have I read all the stuff? No, but I know enough of it to say all of it does not necessarily solve this specific thing.

We need a sort of indication that the republic that once stood has effectively faded out and that it is a time of magnificent terrible war--true sith or not. That many republic-ists are for a rebirth of it--hence the one we know in the prequel trilogy, and the new republic as its successor.

I was under the impression that true sith as a species died out a long time *before*
kotor?

I'll go back and look at that wookiepeedia stuff again, but it honestly did not effectively rebuttle this incontnuity. Say whatever you will.
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Old 08-25-2007, 09:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
We need a sort of indication that the republic that once stood has effectively faded out and that it is a time of magnificent terrible war--true sith or not. That many republic-ists are for a rebirth of it--hence the one we know in the prequel trilogy, and the new republic as its successor.
Well, the Ruusan reformation was supposedly introduced to deal with that particular issue, so i doubt will be seeing any of that in K3


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