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Old 09-20-2007, 10:15 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by JoeDoe 2.0
True, but come on, one officer was enough, maybe even two if he had martial arts training (doubtful by looking at him). If he had a weapon, then I agree. But still I'm not convinced that it was the best course of action, it was a hasty decision taken without deliberation.
Now you just agreed with me that IF he had a weapon it would have been justified, but how do we know he has a weapon or not? That would be the question. Theres been alot of psychopath incidents lately, the highlight of which would be either Combine ten years ago, or the incident where two high school students used heavy-grade weapons, killing on sight and suiciding soon after (This happened about six months ago maybe?).

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Old 09-20-2007, 10:33 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darth-Meatbag
Now you just agreed with me that IF he had a weapon it would have been justified, but how do we know he has a weapon or not? That would be the question. Theres been alot of psychopath incidents lately, the highlight of which would be either Combine ten years ago, or the incident where two high school students used heavy-grade weapons, killing on sight and suiciding soon after (This happened about six months ago maybe?).

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Shoot first, ask questions later... Nice mentality btw... come on there wasn't the slightest hint that the guy could have been dangerous and he was already held on the ground by several police officers...even without the taser, there was nothing he could do.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darth333
Shoot first, ask questions later... Nice mentality btw...
What can I say to that...? Lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
come on there wasn't the slightest hint that the guy could have been dangerous and he was already held on the ground by several police officers...even without the taser, there was nothing he could do.
I suppose I do have to admit he probably couldn't have done anything... whatsoever in any way. None-the-less I still think that that the taser was justified, considering he was even warned that if he didn't stop he could be tasered.

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Old 09-20-2007, 11:14 PM   #44
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What I heard on the news was his time was up, but if that was not the case, it still does not mean he had the right to resist the police.

When this first broke, I was under the impression that a Taser Gun was a painful yet safe way to subdue someone. However, after reading further I have discovered that people actually have died after being tasered. That being the case, I believe the police should have used better discretion before actually using the weapon on the subject. They had more then enough officers to subdue this jerk and did not actually have to use the Taser.

I do not believe the fear of him having a concealed weapon is a ligament, having been to a number of political rallies I know you are searched head to toe before entering the building.

All that said I would still put 90% of the blame on the jerk that had a problem with authority figures. If he just would have left quietly when the police came up to him he never would have got the shock of his life, not to mention a few days vacation at the counties expense.

If his motivation was to get publicity all I can say is job well done.
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Old 09-20-2007, 11:14 PM   #45
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I imagine that there were metal detectors and searches of people prior to entering the auditorium for Kerry's protection. However, as my experience with the hallucinating 'Nam vet showed, just because you have 5 people holding on to him, there's no guarantee that person is going to stay down, or not try to hit one of the cops. They may well have handled it with more physical force than they absolutely needed to, but we don't know if they were instructed to do that by the Secret Service (who I believe is still guarding Kerry as a former Presidential candidate and current Senator), or it's part of their protocol, or whatever. The guy was repeatedly asked to leave and resisted arrest, and escalated the situation by hollering and struggling. If I were a cop and someone was resisting, my assumption is that he's doing so to try to hit me or pull a weapon on me, because that's what people resisting arrest are trying to do in the US--I don't know how bad guys in Canada do things, but that's what they do here. If it's me (and my family)/my buddy or him, he's going down. You cannot partially subdue someone--you either do it completely or not at all.

If the guy had been respectful instead of confrontational and had not resisted arrest, it would never have gotten to the taser point. Probably wouldn't have even made it to arrest level, either.


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Old 09-21-2007, 12:38 AM   #46
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:07 AM   #47
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Nice find Totenkopf, he violated the rules of the forum. This was supposed to be a question and answer format, but it is oblivious that his intention is to be the speaker and not the questionnaire. People are there to hear John Kerry’s opinion and stand to the audiences’ questions, not the opinion of some random fellow college student.

If someone violated the rules on this forum wouldn’t the moderators cut them off and/or close or even delete their post, how is that any different from cutting off his mic. He violated the rules and disobeyed the police officers request.

By the end of the clip I was ready to taser him.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:26 AM   #48
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Maybe the police went a little far, but the guy still had his destiny in his own hands. If he had just gone out quietly he would have been fine. He pushed the issue and paid the price.

As Chris Rock says, "If the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an ass-kicking with them."

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Old 09-21-2007, 03:51 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mimartin
When this first broke, I was under the impression that a Taser Gun was a painful yet safe way to subdue someone. However, after reading further I have discovered that people actually have died after being tasered. That being the case, I believe the police should have used better discretion before actually using the weapon on the subject. They had more then enough officers to subdue this jerk and did not actually have to use the Taser.
Tasers are deadly on the sick, the elderly, children(little tots), and when used in excess. A single shot with a taser on a healthy 20 something college student who took multiple cops to restrain, is not going to kill him.


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Old 09-21-2007, 04:09 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
Tasers are deadly on the sick, the elderly, children(little tots), and when used in excess. A single shot with a taser on a healthy 20 something college student who took multiple cops to restrain, is not going to kill him.
And just how do Police Officers know that someone is healthy without first completing a medical examination? People can look and act perfectly health and then just drop dead of a heart condition, even if they are a 20 something college student. Without knowing the persons complete medical condition I just believe the police should error on the side of caution. The Taser Gun is a weapon and should be only used when absolutely necessary. Of course like I wrote in post #47, by the end of the clip I was ready to taser him.

Edit for below: Corinthian I don’t think that is what I was saying, what I was trying to say is, without all the knowledge of the subject’s medical condition it would be prudent for police not to use the Taser until it is absolutely necessary.

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Old 09-21-2007, 04:30 PM   #51
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Mimartin is right. Before tasering someone, they should ask for a full blood workup, a medical analysis from a trained professional, and make sure he doesn't have any other medical conditions before taking him down.
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Old 09-21-2007, 05:20 PM   #52
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See page 15 on who shouldn't be tased. Children, pregnant suspects, or suspects near flammable substances or close to bystanders shouldn't be tased. I read somewhere they refrain from tasing the elderly, too. I think the recommendation of the maximum number of times a suspect can be tased is 3--I think I read that on the Taser int'l site.


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Old 09-22-2007, 01:49 AM   #53
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Thank you very much for the video Totenkopf. Examining it we can judge exactly what went wrong. I can indicate where I think blame is to be placed if you would like me to.
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Old 09-22-2007, 01:57 AM   #54
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Cops aren't omniscient. They can't even read minds. Shocking as it may be to you, they cannot even use such elementary abilities as the Mind Trick. When somebody loses their marbles, they cannot reliably take somebody down without use of specialized equipment, like ankle cuffs, for example. Guys jumped up on PCP can do incredible things before they're finally brought down. If the guy didn't want to be tazed, he shouldn't have started causing problems. He continued resisting after repeated warnings. Why should the cops have to be kicked and struck as they drag him out? They've got enough on their plates without having to deal with squirming jackass teenagers looking for publicity.
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Old 09-22-2007, 02:19 PM   #55
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Ugh, I don't have time to do a full length post right now, but I do want to say this.... You don't taser someone just because they're being an *******, guys....

That seems to be some of your viewpoints. A taser is used when the copscannot otherwise subdue someone without it. And, come on.... half a dozen cops sitting on him? I don't buy this "they don't know what he could do" thing. He was fighting the cops, he was resisting arrest (there's a difference - he wasn't taking a swing at them, just trying not to be handcuffed. If those cops weren't trained enough to take him down without a taser, then they shouldn't be cops.
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Old 09-22-2007, 06:28 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Ugh, I don't have time to do a full length post right now, but I do want to say this.... You don't taser someone just because they're being an *******, guys....

That seems to be some of your viewpoints. A taser is used when the copscannot otherwise subdue someone without it. And, come on.... half a dozen cops sitting on him?
They tasered him because he was resisting. Yes, they were sitting on him at that moment, but they needed to remove him from the premises and he wasn't being cooperative at all. The second they let him get up, he was probably going to start thrashing around again. He was constantly resisting and trying to escape, so they tased him to take him down a notch.

They could have very easily nightsticked him in the face to get him to comply. But they didn't. He was very lucky to have been tasered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
I don't buy this "they don't know what he could do" thing. He was fighting the cops, he was resisting arrest
Exactly! I'm glad you see that! Resisting arrest is a felony! He's lucky they didn't beat the snot out of him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
(there's a difference - he wasn't taking a swing at them, just trying not to be handcuffed.
'Trying not to be handcuffed? That's called resisting arrest! No, he wasn't taking a swing at them because that would have been another felony called assaulting an officer. At least he had the common sense not to go down that route.

Quote:
If those cops weren't trained enough to take him down without a taser, then they shouldn't be cops.
They took him down like they were trained to. His ass was on the ground in a matter of seconds. Like I said before, the taser was to take some of the fight out of him because they don't want him going berserk the minute they let him up so they can take him out of the room. Remember, they could have easily whacked him upside the head and dragged his unconscious ass out. But they didn't. They used non-lethal weaponry. Non-lethal. That guy isn't going to have any lasting injury from getting tased. So don't be all outraged like they shot him or something, because being tased is nowhere near being shot.




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Old 09-22-2007, 08:17 PM   #57
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Hey RN, I agree with everything you've said regarding why they used the taser. Wouldn't you say though that the cops very a bit aggressive right at the get go? I think they could've prevented the scene from escalating as it did if they would've done more talking and pointing rather than physically escorting the moment his mic was cut.

That action to me seemed to be the first thing that was out of line. (Unless you count the guy's Clinton impeachment comments... which I would've let slide.)

Anyway, my point of view on the whole situation is proof of chaos theory. A little thing can escalate to a point where actions are taken that divide people. I don't think the guy was completely innocent and I don't the cops were either. It was just a passion of the moment incident and look how we're all arguing about who's right and who's wrong.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:37 PM   #58
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Taken from the SomethingAwful forums:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genocide
I was about 3 feet from the where the mic this guy was talking at.

Here is an account of everything I heard/saw (the mic was behind me).

So the moderator of the lecture announces that we are out of time and this will be the last of the open forum questions posed to Kerry. Then Kerry then points to someone (not the tazered kid) and asks him to go ahead with the last question of the night.

The questioner asked him to clear up statements from earlier in the discussion about suggested support for a Hamas government official. About half way through Kerry's answer I hear over the mic a male voice (BlueShirt) asking if he can be heard and "hey john, the police are going to arrest me for asking you a question."

The police are following right behind BlueShirt (i think three or four at this point) and as they grab him, BlueShirt is going on about how he had to listen to Kerry for an hour and a half and now he -BlueShirt- should be given a chance to speak. Kerry, obviously taken aback by the intrusion, asks the kid "why, if you're tired of listening to me are you going to ask me a question." At this point the police started to drag the kid away from the mic and Kerry addressed the police asking them to let BlueShirt stay and he'll answer the question after he's done with what was supposed to be the final question of the lecture.

Kerry spent about 3 minutes answering the previous question, thanked the questioner for working on his 04 campaign, and moved on to BlueShirt.

This is where the video on YouTube started and you have a pretty good idea of what happened then. But to clear up a few things:

The police department had obviously told BlueShirt that time was up and he couldn't ask his question before the first time he rushed the mic.

This wasn't just an open forum for everyone; it was a speaking event put on by a department of the student government with an allotted amount of time. It wasn't held in some public square, it was a private function put on by the speakers assoc and I'm pretty sure they are allowed to eject anyone they want to.

Which comes in handy because what was initially a decent question about voter fraud turned into a rant about oral sex/skull and bones/ and impeachment; so I imagine that was the final reason he was asked to leave before he resisted the police.

From the view point I had after the question was asked, it seemed the officers asked him to leave a final time when he swatted at one. Then like 3 more officers joined in the fray as BlueShirt was pulling away from the officers who grabbed his arms to pull him away.

Once an arm got loose he kept flailing around asking what he was being arrested for.

I then saw a bunch of red dots on his chest and arm(which was really weird at the time - thoughts of snipers in the bell tower immediately came to mind); I then very specifically heard the police say, calm down or we will taser you.

The look on Kerry's face was fairly bewildered at this point.

I heard the taser, a yelp, and then like 5 girls jumped out of their audience seats to yell at the police. The drag him back to the annex where the scuffle could still be heard, blueShirt saying "just let me go and I'll leave" (quite obviously after he was told he was under arrest), more scuffling, and another zapping sound. I'm pretty sure this is where the "just don't taser me bro" line came in.

Kerry then answered the question, went into why we should always have a paper trail for ballots, and ended the lecture.

I'm definitely no lawyer but I'm pretty sure the speakers group had the right to end the session and eject anyone who tried to disrupt. I'm also pretty sure the police are allowed to enforce those decisions. I'm also fairly certain that while it may be protocol to use tasers on someone taking swings at cops, they had plenty of officers to subdue BlueShirt and certainly escalated the situation needlessly in front of a visiting senator, press, and student body.

Sadly, it was a really good lecture. All anyone is going to remember is this guy, right or wrong, and not the excellent points Kerry brought up during his time on stage.
You have to take this with a grain of salt, since it's from SA forums, but it's the closest thing to a firsthand account that I can find.




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Old 09-22-2007, 11:48 PM   #59
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I then saw a bunch of red dots on his chest and arm(which was really weird at the time - thoughts of snipers in the bell tower immediately came to mind)
That would be because the Secret Service _did_ have him targeted in case he became a true threat to Kerry....


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Old 09-23-2007, 12:14 AM   #60
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I think what Rob is trying to say is that Cops should learn means of of taking people down that have absolutely zero risk of hurting the person. Maybe if we can get Captain James T. Kirk to come back in time and give us some phasers set to stun.
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Old 09-23-2007, 03:30 AM   #61
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Tazers are valid when a suspect or civilian are non compliant. I can find the source if you like.
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Old 09-23-2007, 03:52 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Maybe if we can get Captain James T. Kirk to come back in time and give us some phasers set to stun.
If Kirk comes back with Spock, we'll just get him to teach us the Vulcan nerve pinch.
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Old 09-23-2007, 04:16 AM   #63
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I aint reaching in that close. He's got these big pointy teeth. If it's anything like the Black Beast of Caer Bannog...
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Old 09-23-2007, 12:08 PM   #64
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There is no technique that I know of for subduing someone that has absolutely zero risk. There's always going to be some risk inherent in taking someone down who's resisting arrest no matter what technique you try.


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Old 09-23-2007, 02:36 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
If Kirk comes back with Spock, we'll just get him to teach us the Vulcan nerve pinch.

Works everytime, no muss, no fuss and apparently no marks.


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Old 09-23-2007, 02:59 PM   #66
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The look on Kerry's face was fairly bewildered at this point.
I'm suprised after all the botox Kerry can exress that much emotion.

You could always do the classic karate-chop on the neck to knock somebody out, that seemed to work for Sulu.


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Old 09-24-2007, 02:29 PM   #67
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Anyone ever see the Presidio? That scene in the bar where Connery takes the guy down with his thumb......


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Old 09-24-2007, 03:10 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Cops aren't omniscient. They can't even read minds. Shocking as it may be to you, they cannot even use such elementary abilities as the Mind Trick. When somebody loses their marbles, they cannot reliably take somebody down without use of specialized equipment, like ankle cuffs, for example. Guys jumped up on PCP can do incredible things before they're finally brought down.
So it is alright for a police officer to assume that a suspect is hoped up on drugs, but they should not show a little caution and consider the suspect could have a medical condition before zapping them? Why don’t we just do away with Tasers and let the police just shot them or beat them with their nightsticks. After all we are only giving lip service to the Taser being a non-lethal alternative.

In all honesty, the Taser maybe the “god sent” police consider it to be, but that does not explain the deaths. To me “non-lethal” means no one is going to die from its use. Maybe they should change the name to 98% non-lethal. Either there is a problem with the Taser itself or the police/prison guards are not being properly trained in its use.

Again I’m not saying they should not be used, I’m saying they should be used with caution just like any other weapon that has the potential to kill someone.

What would be easier for the Police Officer getting kicked a few times or the knowledge that their action ended another’s life?
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Old 09-24-2007, 04:25 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
In all honesty, the Taser maybe the “god sent” police consider it to be, but that does not explain the deaths. To me “non-lethal” means no one is going to die from its use. Maybe they should change the name to 98% non-lethal. Either there is a problem with the Taser itself or the police/prison guards are not being properly trained in its use.
everything is lethal. It depends entirely on how much effort you put into making it so.


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Old 09-24-2007, 05:36 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
everything is potentially lethal. It depends entirely on how much effort you put into making it so.
fixed. And quite right. The nightstick and revolver/auto can be used w/o killing a perp.

Frankly, this whole thing has nothing to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with creating a disturbance. The first mention of arrest appears to be in Myer's histrionics, not from the officer's themselves. Simply put, had he gone along peacefully, after having rudely hijacked the event for his "message", the whole incident never would have occurred. Only hope that the University doesn't settle with this buffoon, especially given his well documented history of prankster/troublemaker.


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Old 09-27-2007, 10:05 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
I think what Rob is trying to say is that Cops should learn means of of taking people down that have absolutely zero risk of hurting the person. Maybe if we can get Captain James T. Kirk to come back in time and give us some phasers set to stun.
Boy, isn't someone awfully sarcastic today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
Exactly! I'm glad you see that! Resisting arrest is a felony! He's lucky they didn't beat the snot out of him!
Arg, I apologize. That was supposed to be *wasn't* in the first part. My point was that he was not fighting the cops, just resisting arrest. Unlawful arrest.

Oh, and why can't the cops just drag him outside? One cop was taking care of him just fine, dragging him, but b/c he makes a fuss they drop him on the ground inside the building and taser him. No reason to taser him - I know all of you are saying: "oh, he was making a fuss" "they don't know what he could do, he could be hyped on drugs"... etc, etc.

Please, neither of those situations should require a taser. The drugs thing makes no sense anyways - you just acknowledge here that he wasn't fighting the cops, just resisting, and not very effectively at that. So there would be no precedent for the cops to think "uh-oh, drugs" and feel the need to taser him. Someone who was hyped on drugs would probably lose all sense and start outright fighting the cops, but this guy didn't. And the cops knew that.

Also, Rogue, on the post from SA, I think that that should be taken with a little more than a grain of salt. I could be wrong, but that sounds completely fake - it contradicts every video and summary of the incident I've seen. Again, I could be wrong, but...

Last edited by RobQel-Droma; 09-27-2007 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 09-28-2007, 06:00 AM   #72
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New York SWAT teams have tazers as a viable option in controlling noncompliant suspects and civilians, as well as other less than lethal options such as CS tear gas, flashbangs, stingball grenades, ect. A Highway Patrol officer last week was shown pulling up to a man who was on crack cocaine and had cracked, he was bent over his motor vehicle and would not move. In an effort to save his life the trooper tazered him so that he could be taken to hospital.
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