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Old 05-11-2007, 08:12 PM   #1
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The Darth Title

Here's something I was curious about. In KOTOR 1, why don't the Sith characters Jorak Uln and Uthar Wynn have the title of Darth? I mean, they were both the headmasters of the Sith Academy on Korriban. That's the Harvard of the Sith order. That's like having the head dean at Oxford not be a doctor of something.

Also I wonder if Darth Malak ever stopped in for guest lectures.

I'm just curious that's all.


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Old 05-11-2007, 11:16 PM   #2
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I got the impression that Revan intended to model his Sith, in part, after the Sith of the Great Sith Empire, who had a Sith Lord given the style of "Dark Lord of the Sith" that noted their status as supreme leader. Using that angle, I think Revan used the title "Darth" to signify "Dark Lord of the Sith," or perhaps that was the form of the title used in the Sith Empire (it's not clear where the word "Darth" comes from exactly).

As for why he allowed Malak to take the title as well, probably to establish succession IMO. The struggle for power following the death of Marka Ragnos can be interpreted as a reason for the fall of the Sith Empire. The "Rule of Two," of which Revan can be said to be an originator, partly recognizes that one of the strengths of the Sith philosophy is also one of the greatest weaknesses in the Order as a functional body--the struggle for ever greater power.

So as to why Uthar Wynn and Jorak Uln (or Yuthura Ban for that matter) did not adopt the "Darth" title, probably as deference to the hierarchy that Revan set up when he established his version of the Sith. No need to draw attention to yourself and bring a far more powerful Dark Sider like Malak down on you under the belief that you have designs on usurping his position--even though of course you do.

When Revan left Republic Space after the Jedi Civil War, it seems Kreia, having been corrupted by Malachor during her search for answers behind Revan's intentions, claimed the "Darth" title, I suppose in imitation of Revan, in hopes of defining a new Sith Order from the remnants of the old, focused on destroying the Jedi. Sion and Nihilus were granted the title as her apprentices and co-leaders of the Sith forces. Incidentally, it seems that she was not entirely aware (or perhaps didn't care) of the purpose behind the hierarchy Revan established, nor the purpose behind Revan's belief in training a single apprentice--and of course she was consequently overthrown.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:15 AM   #3
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Darth isn't a unique title to Dark Lords, actually. There's been a number of regular Sith Lords who've held it. It's simply a title given to particularly powerful ones - IMO it's just another thing to boast about.


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Old 05-12-2007, 12:44 AM   #4
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I really don't know but I think the use of the title "Darth" was relatively new at that time in the SW universe. Perhaps Jorak Uln and Yuthura Ban hadn't really caught on to the whole Darth title trend set by Revan and Malak.
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:55 AM   #5
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All good theories. It's true I guess that the Darth title wasn't used by Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kresh, or Exar Kun.


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Old 05-12-2007, 12:58 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Darth isn't a unique title to Dark Lords, actually. There's been a number of regular Sith Lords who've held it. It's simply a title given to particularly powerful ones - IMO it's just another thing to boast about.
Of course, but as cutmeister points out, the use of "Darth" appears to have been new (or at least newly resurrected) by Revan. Whether or not later Sith Lords decided to use the title as a status symbol doesn't mean that Revan had not initially intended for it to signify the "Dark Lord of the Sith."
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Old 05-12-2007, 01:07 AM   #7
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I just wonder what Bastila's Darth title would have been. Darth Hotpants?

Well of course based on Revan's, Malak's, and Bandon's example, she'd have just been Darth Bastila (or Darth Shan since we don't know if the names Revan, Malak, or Bandon are first or last names). They didn't do the "hey you're evil now so we'll give you a name that almost sounds like it's something bad, but isn't quite." (i.e. Tyranus, Plageus, Bane, Vader, Maul, & Sidious).


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Old 05-12-2007, 10:09 AM   #8
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I do believe the Darth title to be Rakatan in origin. See the Wookieepedia page for further details.

It definitely doesn't stand for "Dark Lord of the Sith," as non-Dark Lords (Darth Malak before he overthrew Revan, as well as Darth Bandon) used the title. Also, I believe that Darth Andeddu was the first known Sith Lord to use the title as his appearance suggests that he was of the Old Sith Empire. I think he conceived of the title from the Rakatan language to reinforce his status as Emperor (probably because his reign may have been challenged by some Sith who disagreed with his ideals), and Revan revived this tradition for the same purpose.


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Old 05-12-2007, 10:55 AM   #9
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Revan was thought at one point to have originated the title "Darth", but this seems to have been retconned since then. At the moment Darth Andeddu seems to be the title's origin.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Andeddu

We don't know when Andeddu lived, however, there is no way of knowing.

One thing, though - the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" is typically used both by the reigning dark lord and his apprentice, even after Darth Bane introduced "the rule of two" - that's why you can have Darth Sidious and Darth Maul/Tyranus/Vader at the same time. And the apprentice is considered a dark lord as well, even if he doesn't rule. Vader is a dark lord of the Sith, but he was never the ruling one.

Before the rule of two, there really is no limit. That's why you have both Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion in TSL. They are all dark lords.


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Old 05-12-2007, 12:10 PM   #10
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Heh...I think at some point this will need to be clarified. We don't want Star Wars continuity going all Star Trek on us (Klingons have pink blood....and yet they don't. Klingons don't have tear ducts, and are thus incapable of crying. The Klingon messiah, Kahless, cried so much that he formed a large body of water on the planet. I'm Spock, I'm a Vulcan, and therefore can't lie. However we Vulcans can be deceptive and not tell the truth whenever we want to.)

Sorry for throwing some Trek in there. I'll try to not let it happen again.


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Old 06-20-2007, 03:45 PM   #11
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in kotor 2 (i can't remember where, or maybe it was 1) but i remember reading a datapad about the origional sith lord, Darth. Maybe the sith lords were doing what the mandalorians did...by bein named after there leader. So the title 'Darth', is just to show the continuation of the greatest Dark Sider. since he was probably the strongest one ever, only the strongest ones can have the title of 'Darth' hence the reason uthar and Jorak weren't called darth...they were teachers but they weren't the strongest sith... plus many jedi are just counted as jedi, while the ones in the counsel go by the title 'Master' because they are the wisest and the strongest

[EDIT] plus the reason every sith used it later like in the movies was to strike fear in their enemys even though they were so much weaker than all of the origional sith's or weaker than even revan and malek and nihilus and sion and traya


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Old 06-20-2007, 05:34 PM   #12
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One thing I know for sure=> Bandon uses the title "Darth" because, thinking Revan was dead, Darth Malak took an apprentice. Being the Dark Lord's apprentice, Bandon was allowed to be called Darth. I think the "Dark Lord and Sith Apprentice" used by Revan and Malak were the predecessor to Darth Bane's Rule of One(remember, after all, Bane defied Lord Kaan in claiming the title of Darth), featuring two REAL sith, and a large order of what were basically Dark Jedi who knew a few of the inner order's secret sith techniques/powers were below them.

Revan's holocron advised that a master should only take one apprentice, and Kreia, in taking two apprentices, ensured her own downfall. In Legacy, Darth Krayt's Rule of One(with many Darths) was seen as heresy even by Darth Andeddu, who was long dead even by the time of Revan and Malak.





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Old 09-05-2007, 01:46 AM   #13
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Yes indeed, Andeddu is thought to be the original Darth. As for eldest sith's theory on Darth, I have found absolutly zero evidence for it. If my human memory serves, the Darth title is actually a challenge, it sets its owner as being a Sith willing to go up against all the frak and backstabbing anyone might perpetrate agianst him/her, the title speficically challenges fellow dark siders, daring them to take the Darth's place of power. I beleive it essentially says "I'm the nastiest dude on campus. Submit and I will enslave or kill you for your cowardise, challenge me and be prepared to face, in a Darth's own words, "the full power of the darkside!" : If you want the proffessional guide to Sith teachings than Darth Bane: Path of Destruction is an informative and well written source. And that book was written by one of the Knigfhts of the Old Republic writters if I'm not mistaken.

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Old 09-10-2007, 02:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb Stark
Of course, but as cutmeister points out, the use of "Darth" appears to have been new (or at least newly resurrected) by Revan. Whether or not later Sith Lords decided to use the title as a status symbol doesn't mean that Revan had not initially intended for it to signify the "Dark Lord of the Sith."
There are also possibilities that darth andeddu preceded revan in the title of "darth"
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Old 09-29-2007, 12:56 AM   #15
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"How many licks to the center on a toosie pop....the world may never know."

I guess we should ask George Lucas what "Darth" really means...

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Old 09-29-2007, 01:34 AM   #16
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He'd probably think up something totally stupid if you asked him. Something along the lines of Jar Jar.
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Old 09-29-2007, 01:45 AM   #17
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Maybe...but he is the "creator" of star wars....

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