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Old 10-03-2007, 12:04 AM   #15
RobQel-Droma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
That would appear to be your earlier argument.
It was a comparison, if that was what you are referring to. I was not saying killing civilians was a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm not ok with either and I'm not sure how you got the impression that I was.
And yet, you have said nothing about the atrocities committed by these terrorists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Fine. But that doesn't tell me how collateral damage is ok but torture is not.
First of all.... did I ever say that? No.

Secondly.... collateral damage is usually accidental - if a target needs to be taken out, then it should. We don't purposely go and say, oh, lets drop some bombs on them and just hope we don't kill any civilians. Whereas the other is quite intentional.

snipped


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Nope not at all. But most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and the al qaeda is based out of Afghanistan. So what are we doing in Iraq? And why aren't we at war in Saudi Arabia (hint: they're our allies, just like Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden once were)?
Since when was Osama our ally?

As for Iraq, I don't know.... Maybe you might want to uh, go do some research on that. We went into Iraq because there was evidence that Saddam was arming with nuclear weapons or other types of military power - and he hadn't responded to our warnings to stop for about 12 years. He also aided many of the terrorists that planned 9/11...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Fascinating. Then why are we in Afghanistan? I thought that's where the al qaeda training camps were.
We went into Afghanistan.....

?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
No, I'm afraid I haven't heard that regarding Iraq or Saddam. Perhaps you'd like to educate me.
Quote:
OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum obtained by THE WEEKLY STANDARD.

The memo, dated October 27, 2003, was sent from Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith to Senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was written in response to a request from the committee as part of its investigation into prewar intelligence claims made by the administration. Intelligence reporting included in the 16-page memo comes from a variety of domestic and foreign agencies, including the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the National Security Agency. Much of the evidence is detailed, conclusive, and corroborated by multiple sources. Some of it is new information obtained in custodial interviews with high-level al Qaeda terrorists and Iraqi officials, and some of it is more than a decade old. The picture that emerges is one of a history of collaboration between two of America's most determined and dangerous enemies.

According to the memo--which lays out the intelligence in 50 numbered points--Iraq-al Qaeda contacts began in 1990 and continued through mid-March 2003, days before the Iraq War began. Most of the numbered passages contain straight, fact-based intelligence reporting, which some cases includes an evaluation of the credibility of the source. This reporting is often followed by commentary and analysis.

The relationship began shortly before the first Gulf War. According to reporting in the memo, bin Laden sent "emissaries to Jordan in 1990 to meet with Iraqi government officials." At some unspecified point in 1991, according to a CIA analysis, "Iraq sought Sudan's assistance to establish links to al Qaeda." The outreach went in both directions. According to 1993 CIA reporting cited in the memo, "bin Laden wanted to expand his organization's capabilities through ties with Iraq."

The primary go-between throughout these early stages was Sudanese strongman Hassan al-Turabi, a leader of the al Qaeda-affiliated National Islamic Front. Numerous sources have confirmed this. One defector reported that "al-Turabi was instrumental in arranging the Iraqi-al Qaeda relationship. The defector said Iraq sought al Qaeda influence through its connections with Afghanistan, to facilitate the transshipment of proscribed weapons and equipment to Iraq. In return, Iraq provided al Qaeda with training and instructors."

One such confirmation came in a postwar interview with one of Saddam Hussein's henchmen. As the memo details:

4. According to a May 2003 debriefing of a senior Iraqi intelligence officer, Iraqi intelligence established a highly secretive relationship with Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and later with al Qaeda. The first meeting in 1992 between the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) and al Qaeda was brokered by al-Turabi. Former IIS deputy director Faruq Hijazi and senior al Qaeda leader [Ayman al] Zawahiri were at the meeting--the first of several between 1992 and 1995 in Sudan. Additional meetings between Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda were held in Pakistan. Members of al Qaeda would sometimes visit Baghdad where they would meet the Iraqi intelligence chief in a safe house. The report claimed that Saddam insisted the relationship with al Qaeda be kept secret. After 9-11, the source said Saddam made a personnel change in the IIS for fear the relationship would come under scrutiny from foreign probes.
Consider yourself educated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
100,000 Civilian Deaths Estimated in Iraq

The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths, indicated that many of the excess deaths have occurred due to aerial attacks by coalition forces, with women and children being frequent victims, wrote the international team of public health researchers making the calculations.
"....extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths...."
snipped
"Merriam-Webster",
extrapolate: to use known facts as the starting point from which to draw inferences or draw conclusions about something unknown

So.... rewrite as: make a guess about the unknown from some known information, based on a relatively small amount of documented deaths.

I won't say that these people could be largely biased against the war, even though its a possibility. Come on..... "we don't have very many known deaths, but just on our estimate, we say 100,000" .... lol, it's almost funny in a sad way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm not criminalizing them at all. They're just trying to survive. The sooner we bring them home, the better.
Yes, that is why you are making this claim of our soldiers "baiting" innocent Iraqis. snipped

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What I'm also not doing is pretending that none of this is really happening.
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
PS: Actual footage of events doesn't lie.
snipped

Actual footage may not lie. But (there is)....context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Well, I'm sorry to hear that Kyle Smith didn't care for the film. I'm not sure what his opinion of the film has to do with anything.
I'm sorry to hear that you don't want us in Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
We can either exemplify that we deserve to be the world's sole superpower or we do not. Not sure how violating and/or ignoring international treaties accomplished the former.
snipped Because we should always have to earn our right to be a superpower. We didn't just get there by ourselves.

BTW, did you ever realize that if you are referring to things the U.N. has passed by "international treaties" - we started the U.N.?

snipped

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Nope, my way they would come home before "Abdul" had an opportunity to "put them in a box". snipped
No, they would come home and then get put in a box because "Abdul" would be masterminding more airplane attacks on prominent American cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
And these enemies are wearing uniforms? How do the snipers distinguish between insurgents and curious civilians that have been used to looting for the last 5 years?
Tell me how that is our problem. If these insurgents are too cowardly to put on a uniform, then they are putting their own people at risk, because those soldiers, as you said, are trying to survive. They're not going to wait for them to get shot at first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'd feel much safer if we were spending $2 billion dollars per day making our country safer rather than inspiring millions of middle easterns to hate americans while our soldiers die.
Middle easterns have hated americans for years before we went in there. That's why they attacked on 9/11 and killed thousands of civilians.

Oh, and what do you think we are doing? Making the world more dangerous by killing these terrorists?

snipped

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
We've heard this before, no? Not really "different" then, is it?

guerrilla: a person who engages in irregular warfare especially as a member of an independent unit carrying out harassment and sabotage.

Examples:
American Revolutionary War
American Civil War
Huh? Since when was the Civil War a guerilla war?

Oh, and, just a thought Achilles....

Guerillas don't drive up to soldiers in their cars with bombs and blow themselves up, or go to other countries and suicide bomb airports.

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 10-04-2007 at 01:49 PM. Reason: snipped inflammatory/baiting comments
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