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Old 07-28-2007, 06:46 PM   #1
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KotOR III :: Force Ghost (Jedi Master/Sith Lord) Sidequest

KotOR III :: Force Ghost (Jedi Master/Sith Lord) Sidequest
One of the rememberable moments in Star Wars is Obi-Wan's force ghost. Since I have not seen Episode IV, V, and VI for over two years, I descided to watch "Empire Strikes Back" last night. Yes, we did see a force ghost in KotOR, but I think it would be cooler if we followed one through the game. Instead of having a Jedi Master or Sith Lord in your group, I think it would be a cool idea to bump into a former Jedi Master or Sith Lord on the road. I think we should return to some of those characteristics that made the original trilogy successful.



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Old 07-28-2007, 07:16 PM   #2
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well considering Jolee's fate is unknown after K1, I'd definetely like to see him as a Force Ghost in K3. although I'm not really sure what he's ghost could lead you to...maybe back to Kashyyyk?!


Lashowe: "Do you know how many Sith there are on this planet?"
Jolee: "Twelve! No, wait! Thirteen!"
Canderous: "Nice one, old man."
Jolee: "Thank you. It takes effort to be properly irreverent at my age."
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:54 PM   #3
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Hmm, Jolee... Yeah, it would be a nice parody of Obi-Wan's ghost: There's the old man phantom all big and important, coming at your direction. He's about to say something to you. He stops for a awhile, then approach you again.

JOLEE"Hear ye, I've got something of the utmost importance to tell ya. I, er... just forgot what this was about."
PLAYER"WTF?"
JOLEE"What? Never heard about senility? You youngsters, back on my time..."


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Old 07-31-2007, 05:04 PM   #4
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We got Ajunta Pall, but that wasn't the same. Having Jolee as a Force Ghost would be very nice. Jolee is one of my favorite characters in the Kotor series. But I don't think it would fit if you're an unknown Padawan in Kotor3 who never met Jolee. But a former Jedi Master or Sith Lord seems like a good idea. I'm all for it.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:24 PM   #5
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Perhaps Vandar or the masters from TSL, or maybe even one of the masters from the KOTOR comics could make an appearance as a Force ghost. They'd probably fit in better than Jolee. Still, I'd like it very much if Jolee would make an appearance.


Lashowe: "Do you know how many Sith there are on this planet?"
Jolee: "Twelve! No, wait! Thirteen!"
Canderous: "Nice one, old man."
Jolee: "Thank you. It takes effort to be properly irreverent at my age."
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Old 08-01-2007, 09:09 AM   #6
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I think the only one who should appear as a force ghost should be Darth Traya, in a tomb or other heavily dark-sided place to talk to you or something.

As for Jolee, I don't see how he could learn the Force Ghost ability. It would be better to see him alive.


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Old 08-01-2007, 10:01 AM   #7
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Jolee was the man...would love to see him make an appearance...force ghost or otherwise.
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:56 AM   #8
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Encountering a force ghost is a good idea. It would be cool if you could see a different master depending on your alignment, like if you were LS: Vandar or Vrook, Neutral: Jolee, or DS: Kreia.


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Old 08-01-2007, 11:27 AM   #9
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Vrook was a dick...id like to force choke slam that sob...loved seeing him die
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:45 AM   #10
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Vrook was not that bad...well except when you saved his butt and he started berating you...the bastard. Anyway, I'd like to see Vandar or Kavar best, maybe even Zhar or Dorak...Jolee is still my top preference for an appearance in K3, preferably alive.


Lashowe: "Do you know how many Sith there are on this planet?"
Jolee: "Twelve! No, wait! Thirteen!"
Canderous: "Nice one, old man."
Jolee: "Thank you. It takes effort to be properly irreverent at my age."
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK24
Vrook was not that bad...well except when you saved his butt and he started berating you...the bastard. Anyway, I'd like to see Vandar or Kavar best, maybe even Zhar or Dorak...Jolee is still my top preference for an appearance in K3, preferably alive.
If i recall correctly though, none of Vrook, Kavar or Zez el I can never remember his name would be force ghosts, as the impression I had was that Kreia had stopped them from becoming one with the force, when the Exile inspects them after Kreia has force killed them, it says something along the lines of; the master is dead, as if the force has been stripped from them. Vrook was also a complete muppet! Personally I would vote for a force ghost Vandar, as I love the little green legends that are/ise Yoda, Vandar and the girl one whose name escapes me. That or Jolee, Nemo (always wished he had a bigger part in K1) or even Kreia - although as she was Dark/Neutral not sure if she can be a force ghost.



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Old 08-01-2007, 02:07 PM   #12
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Don't forget that a DS Exile also strips the Jedi Masters from the Force. And also gain a nice Force Point Boost as well.


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Old 08-01-2007, 05:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jonathan7
If i recall correctly though, none of Vrook, Kavar or Zez el I can never remember his name would be force ghosts, as the impression I had was that Kreia had stopped them from becoming one with the force, when the Exile inspects them after Kreia has force killed them, it says something along the lines of; the master is dead, as if the force has been stripped from them. Vrook was also a complete muppet! Personally I would vote for a force ghost Vandar, as I love the little green legends that are/ise Yoda, Vandar and the girl one whose name escapes me. That or Jolee, Nemo (always wished he had a bigger part in K1) or even Kreia - although as she was Dark/Neutral not sure if she can be a force ghost.
Didn't think of that when considering Kavar, Vrook and Zez-Kai Ell for Force Ghosts...haven't played TSL for some time...Anyway then, taking into consideration that for the masters from TSL it would be impossible to make appearances as Force Ghosts, I'd agree that Vandar or one of the masters that died on Katar could make an appearance...


Lashowe: "Do you know how many Sith there are on this planet?"
Jolee: "Twelve! No, wait! Thirteen!"
Canderous: "Nice one, old man."
Jolee: "Thank you. It takes effort to be properly irreverent at my age."
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Vrook was a dick...id like to force choke slam that sob...loved seeing him die
Vrook was cool. He may be annoying, but he's always right anyway.


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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miltiades
But I don't think it would fit if you're an unknown Padawan in Kotor3 who never met Jolee. But a former Jedi Master or Sith Lord seems like a good idea. I'm all for it.

I would like to see Jolee again, but I'm not to keen on having him in the party. A Force Ghost of him and Vandar/Kavar would have been cool, but considering that Kreia stripped Kavar of the force and Vandar was fed upon by Nihilus. Just the thought of being guided by a Force Ghost is enticing. Original? No, but it still would be semi fun. It shouldn't be a necessity in Kotor III, but a nice add on all the same.


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Old 08-13-2007, 04:55 PM   #16
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As it has been mentioned before, the problem with seeing Force ghosts of the masters in TSL is that they're all dead to the force one way or the another (Except for Vash), and would make it fairly difficult for them to return as spirits. Then we have Jolee and Juhani both who can become ghosts, unless Revan was LS, in which case they would be alive or may have been killed by Nihilus in Katarr (Which again means no Force to become a ghost). Lastly, we have Kreia, but i'd hate to see her character be ruined in K3, after being so awesome in K2, so i'd prefer none of the previous Jedi return as Force ghosts.


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Old 08-13-2007, 05:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
As it has been mentioned before, the problem with seeing Force ghosts of the masters in TSL is that they're all dead to the force one way or the another (Except for Vash), and would make it fairly difficult for them to return as spirits.
That's also very true. All Force Ghost thus far have only died and became one with the Force. I'm not sure, but I think after Kreia's stripping and Nihilus' feeding, any Jedi Master we've encountered (besides Vash, whom had a very small role in the canon game.) could come back. Again, it would be nice to have someone to guide you again who is already a Jedi Master, not a Padawan learner but it isn't a necessity to Kotor III.

Quote:
Then we have Jolee and Juhani both who can become ghosts, unless Revan was LS, in which case they would be alive or may have been killed by Nihilus in Katarr (Which again means no Force to become a ghost). Lastly, we have Kreia, but I'd hate to see her character be ruined in K3, after being so awesome in K2, so i'd prefer none of the previous Jedi return as Force ghosts.
Jolee and Juhani's fate have not been determined, thus, it's harder to say if they should come back. ( I don't think any should come back as Force Ghost, it would just be nice to see.) I don't see how Kreia's force ghost would ruin the game, but I too don't want to see her for the simple reason that what she shrived to do is already done.


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Old 08-22-2007, 12:31 AM   #18
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I like the idea of a force ghost teacher that differs depending on your alignment, and having it be Jolee (Neutral consular) and Kreia (DS consular) does fit a pattern that was started in K1, and continued through K2.

In K1, you're introduced to 3 Jedi masters while you are undergoing your training in addition to the one actually giving your assignments to cleanse the taint from the grove. Later in K1 & K2, 2 of those Jedi come to save your bacon at the last minute. If you think of it typologically it suggests a possibility.

K1: Master Vandar rides into the rescue like would be expected of a Jedi Guardian.
K2: Master Vrook tries to draw out the enemy, like a jedi watchman/sentinal

If K3 is true to type, the Councilor from that group was Master Dorak, the only one from that group that has yet to ride to the rescue and try to make a difference from the light side.

So it would be an interesting set of parallel options if you were light sided you were advised by the force ghost of Master Dorak. Of course making 3 force ghosts, one for each alignment a Councilor/Jedi Master/Sith Lord might take might be too much trouble for LA to set things up that way, but there is a pretty cool symetry to it from at least 2 different ways of looking at previous games leading up to this one, and I'm hoping for it. At least from a story telling point of view it seems very cool to me.
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
I like the idea of a force ghost teacher that differs depending on your alignment, and having it be Jolee (Neutral consular) and Kreia (DS consular) does fit a pattern that was started in K1, and continued through K2.

In K1, you're introduced to 3 Jedi masters while you are undergoing your training in addition to the one actually giving your assignments to cleanse the taint from the grove. Later in K1 & K2, 2 of those Jedi come to save your bacon at the last minute. If you think of it typologically it suggests a possibility.

K1: Master Vandar rides into the rescue like would be expected of a Jedi Guardian.
K2: Master Vrook tries to draw out the enemy, like a jedi watchman/sentinal

If K3 is true to type, the Councilor from that group was Master Dorak, the only one from that group that has yet to ride to the rescue and try to make a difference from the light side.

So it would be an interesting set of parallel options if you were light sided you were advised by the force ghost of Master Dorak. Of course making 3 force ghosts, one for each alignment a Councilor/Jedi Master/Sith Lord might take might be too much trouble for LA to set things up that way, but there is a pretty cool symetry to it from at least 2 different ways of looking at previous games leading up to this one, and I'm hoping for it. At least from a story telling point of view it seems very cool to me.
That is a pretty good way of putting it.

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Old 10-13-2007, 11:11 AM   #20
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Of course, this depends on whether you want adhere to canon or not.

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Old 10-13-2007, 11:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
So it would be an interesting set of parallel options if you were light sided you were advised by the force ghost of Master Dorak. Of course making 3 force ghosts, one for each alignment a Councilor/Jedi Master/Sith Lord might take might be too much trouble for LA to set things up that way, but there is a pretty cool symetry to it from at least 2 different ways of looking at previous games leading up to this one, and I'm hoping for it. At least from a story telling point of view it seems very cool to me.
Well, I don't like symmetry in storytelling, because that means the plot becomes predictable. To me that's the ultimate sin in storytelling. Like when the Joker becomes the murderer of Batman's parents so Batman can have his revenge for the sake of plot symmetry (and no, that was NOT put in there by the screenwriter - I hated Sam Hamm for that part of the story until I saw him voice criticism of it himself in an interview. He understood the problem it caused, while others sadly did not...).

Plot "symmetry" is exactly the reason why american horror-flicks have crashed in the last decade, while japanese horror flicks work - the japanese ones are new and fresh and scare us with stuff we haven't seen before and don't expect, while american ones are burdened with the formula for horror flicks in the form of the rules that must be obeyed (intimate relations = death, "I'll be right back" = "no, you won't, because you'll be killed", and - of course - my personal favorite, "this looks dangerous - let's split up...")

That there are rules for this is one thing, but you can't adhere to them. If you want to tell good plot, then symmetry is your enemy! You must break it! 24 has worked for a few years because it broke some of the unwritten rules - it dared to kill off major characters on screen (even though season 6 was terrible...).

That's why I consider TSL a good game. KotOR is a better game for technical reasons, but TSL has a better plot IMHO, and the reason is that it breaks the symmetry. Do the good guys win in the end?

TSL follows some of the patterns to make it recognizable as a Star Wars game and plot (intro-planet followed by gamequest-setup, followed by finding X number of items (jedi masters) on X number of planets, before moving to the endgame), but the tone is different and the ultimate plot outcome is ambiguous - is Kreia really a villain or a hero? You can't answer that without answering some really tough questions first. And - more importantly - it's not what you would expect from the plot.

Same thing with the exile being a hole in the force - it wasn't the masters who did it to him, no, he did it to himself, and he has been in denial about it for a decade and continues to be. Some hero or what? Again, this breaks the symmetry, because the exile (canonically, meaning LS) is supposed to be the hero and the Sith the villains, yet in the end it's all muddied. Nihilus ends up being more of a shadow than a true villain (and one the exile is responsible for, according to the masters [and, recently, Chris Avellone]), while Kreia turns out to be on a quest to "free the common people from the way the force dictates fate to them". In the end, your villains are not so villainous after all, given that the exile is somehow responsible for Nihilus, while Kreia being a villain or a hero depends on your perspective.

And apart from all that, I'd like to see Jolee back alive in the event Revan is set to LS by the player (which I will certainly do) in KotOR3

Bah, no matter - KotOR3 is vapourware anyway...


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Old 10-13-2007, 05:15 PM   #22
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Actually, I rather like the idea for this quest. Jolee, I think would be good for a lightside/neutral, it would just be...he would be crazy in comparison to what someone said about Obi-wan to Jolee.

However, one person I would also consider for lightside would be Vash. Why? She was the most understanding member on the council (IMO), she had relatively short screen time, and there isn't really much out there for her, except that she was on the council. I believe Vash would be a nice addition to the 'Padawan'. She would be better than Vrook in my opinion, because...to put it short, I'm tired of the arrogant old man. Kavar, maybe.

For Darkside, I would like to see Kreia perhaps, although I don't know if that would work entirely. And well...I would rather see Jolee, or Juhani alive, than dead.
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Old 10-13-2007, 05:27 PM   #23
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For some reason I like Kavar the most out of all of the Jedi masters out of both KotOR I and KotOR II. Perhaps if there is a KotOR III maybe he would be a force ghost. Teach you great fighting techniques, how to be a diplomat, and about the force. What could be better? Anyways, Kavar was an awesome character.

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Old 10-13-2007, 05:51 PM   #24
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Kavar was an awesome character...the only problem was, that he couldn't see through it all. None of the Masters did, except for Vash. She was the only one with a clue. Although, I admitt, I was greatly saddened when I saw Kavar 'betray' me, it wasn't as much a problem with Vrook. I knew he was going to try to kill me sometime or later.

But, none-the-less, Kavar would make a good appearance as a Force Ghost. What about the Council themselves, perhaps?
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